Talk:J. R. R. Tolkien

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German ancestry

I'm curious, is Tolkien's alleged German ancestry backed by any genealogical evidence whatsoever? As far as I can find, his line has not actually been traced back to Germany. And on Rootsweb, here, I could find no German people actually surnamed "Tolkien". All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 12:16, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, this page which is also used as a source in the article shows quite a number of Tolkiens in modern Germany. Their count is based on current entries in German phone books so it seems to be reliable. And a search directly at Ancestry.com for people named Tolkien who were born in Germany but died in England [1] returns one John Benjamin Tolkien (1753–1819), and we know that JRRT's grandfather John Benjamin lived from 1807 to 1896. So there may be a link. De728631 (talk) 15:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

It seems the the most distant traceable patrilineal ancestor of Tolkien was his great-great-grandfather, the John Benjamin Tolkien you mentioned (i.e. follow the line here). But I am not so sure that this man was actually born in Germany? It may have been an assumption on the part of whichever ancestry.com user. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 08:11, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this is apparently uncertain. His gravestone does not mention any place of birth. Here is an excerpt from Carpenter's biography that tells us about a family legend of how the German name "Tollkühn" was allegedly acquired (pp. 18, 19), but then that was just told by JRRT's aunt who loved a good tale. John Benjamin Tolkien Sr. is attested by Carpenter but he doesn't give any details either. De728631 (talk) 17:30, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Tolkien's own view on this, from the 1938 letter to the Berlin publisher who wanted to do a German translation of The Hobbit,

"My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient."

When we say somebody is "of German ancestry", e.g. German-Americans, the implication is that they are substantially descended from German stock even though their German ancestors might have emigrated many generations ago. It does not usually apply for somebody who is "87.5%" English and "12.5%" German by descent. --dab (𒁳) 20:07, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

If the g-g-gfather married an English woman then no more than 1/16 or 6.25% is documented. But we do pay much greater attention to the origin of surnames than we do to "stock". Say perhaps that the surname derives from JRRT's patrilineal (of course) g-g-gparent, an immigrant from Germany, but his other ancestors of that generation were English so far as known. --P64 (talk) 17:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Has anyone actually excluded that it is a Jewish name? Reuel is Hebrew. This is a valid part of his ancestry. Tolkien was playing word games about his ancestry. Analyse it. He wasn't ashamed of it, nor should he have been, but the family obviously never publicised it.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:15, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Unless you can find a reliable source that says his ancestry was in part Jewish, such an assertion can't appear in the article. Frankly, I don't think such a source exists. Deor (talk) 22:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

A valid part of his ancestry? Reuel is his second given name, not a surname, therefore it has not a jot to do with his ancestry. You may be unaware of this, but in 19th century Europe it was extremely common for Christians to name their children after biblical (even Old Testament) people. Names such as Ebenezer, Isaac, Hannah and even Mordecai have in times past been very common Christian names. As for the origins of the Tolkien name, there are various sources suggesting that it is of Saxon, German and even Norman origin, but I have found none that claim it to be Jewish. As far as Tolkien himself was concerned, he was of the belief that it was an Anglicised form of the German/Saxon name Tollkiehn, derived from the Saxon tollkühn, meaning "foolhardy". Indeed, an independent source seems to support this theory. Quite an unlikely adoptive name for a Jew, you must surely agree. In the absence of a DNA profile one can easily speculate anything about anyone, but I see no reason at all to believe that Tolkien was anything but what he claimed to be: An Englishman of German descent. Furthermore, you would be well advised in future to avoid attempts at misleading others by asserting your opinion as fact, especially when that opinion is so contrary.--92.239.20.158 (talk) 04:41, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to insert anything. I just wonder why people are discussing his ancestry, but ignoring the obvious. Surely antisemiticism is a bit old-fashioned these days...--Jack Upland (talk) 10:19, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Please avoid making libellous insults, and assume good faith. Please also be mindful that Wikipedia is not a soapbox for your fanciful theories. As for "ignoring the obvious", it seems that you are the only one guilty of that here. Besides there being no evidence to support your claim, Tolkien himself is on record as having stated that he has no Jewish ancestry. Now forgive my impertinence, but who exactly do you think you are to question Tolkien's honesty on such matters?--92.239.20.158 (talk) 04:57, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how it is fanciful, and Tolkien wasn't denying Jewish ancestry. Regarding Reuel which is certainly not a common name:

In Letters 309, Tolkien writes: “This was (I believe) the surname of a friend of my grandfather. The family believed it to be French (which is formally possible); but if so it is an odd chance that it appears twice in the O[ld] T[estament] as an unexplained other name for Jethro Moses' father in law. All my children, and my children's children, and their children, have the name.”

Make of that what you will.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:04, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

He did deny Jewish ancestry. "But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people." Your quotation is interesting and might belong in the article. However, as far as ancestry is concerned, the only thing I can make of it is that a friend of Tolkien's grandfather might have been Jewish, though the Tolkien family didn't think so. By the way, I believe I'm free of anti-Semitism. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 18:29, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

He was a philologist, and that letter uses some careful wordplay. He used the word "appear". That's not a denial. Given their history, I wonder if the Tolkiens were originally Jewish and the family was denying it. I made the comment about antisemiticism because of the heated way my original comment was treated. After all, it's only a brief comment on a talk page.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

In the following text I recitate from 'The Tolkien Quiz Book' by Bart Andrews, published in 1979 by Signet Books. Quiz 38, Question 2: What is the historical origin of the name "Tolkien," and what did it mean? Quiz 38, Answer 2: Because of his daring unofficial raid against the Turks at the siege of Vienna in 1529, George Von Hohenzollern was given the nickname Tollkühn, meaning "foolhardy" 91.44.180.193 (talk) 21:39, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Interesting, but I can't find any reliable sources that say that. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 16:51, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

It comes from Carpenter's biography of Tolkien. Carpenter implies that it is a fanciful tale and unlikely to be based in fact. Deagol2 (talk) 17:18, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Maternal Ancestry

Shifting this paragraph, which is cited to a broken or non-existing link, to this page until it can be recited to a good source.

Tolkien's maternal grandparents, John and Edith Jane Suffield, lived in Birmingham and owned a shop in the city centre. The Suffield family had run various businesses out of the same building, called Lamb House, since the early 19th century. From 1812 Tolkien's great-great-grandfather William Suffield had a book and stationery shop there; from 1826 Tolkien's great-grandfather, also named John Suffield, had a drapery and hosiery business there.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wjhonson (talk • contribs) 17:16, 3 December 2013‎ (UTC)

Suggestion that the main photo for this article should be of Tolken as an author, not as a soldier.

A photo that better represents Tolken as an author or at least as a more well-known figure should be found for the head of this article. The World War II photo appears to be the only profile photo on the page. As it stands, due to the military photo, someone with no previous knowledge of Tolken would likely have the first impression of a life where war was the most significant and notable factor, and the photo may suggest to someone only slightly familiar with Tolken as an author, that his experience of war played a key role in his writing. Contrarily, as this very article asserts, Tolken "indignantly declared that those who searched his works for parallels to the Second World War were entirely mistaken". How significant a role World War II played in Tolken's entire life is questionable at best. Anyway, surely it's best to have a photo of the person in full expression of their talents. I believe more appropriate alternative photos are available, such as the main profile photo on the Greek version of this page. The Nitty Gritty (talk) 05:51, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

We've had this discussion a few times, the photo (from World War 1 not Word War 2) is out of copyright and therefore free to use. Any other picture will still be under copyright, and as we have a freely available one we cannot use it WP:FREER GimliDotNet ^{(Speak to me,Stuff I've done)} 06:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

The image of Tolkien used in the Greek article is an obvious copyright violation, and I have nominated it for deletion. BabelStone (talk) 11:08, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the policy states that the "equivalent" content have the "same effect." Is it really fair to say that an image of Tolkien from his youth, which is not the picture of the author most would have in mind when looking for an encyclopedic source, is "equivalent" to a picture of the author as he is overwhelmingly portrayed in copyrighted works (i.e., as an older man)? KFan II (talk) 16:54, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

As a compromise I suggest we re-add the image of Tolkien's bust to the infobox. While one may speculate about the truthfulness and quality of the 3d artwork, the photograph itself is free at least and the bust portrays the elder Tolkien as he is most likely remembered. De728631 (talk) 20:26, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I think the bust image is the least satisfactory option - poor photo and not the man himself. If a non-free older Tolkien photo is not allowed then the WW1 image is the least worst option of the two. Deagol2 (talk) 21:25, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Possible typo in the Courtship and marriage portion

In a 1941 letter to his son Michael, Tolkien recalled,

I had to choose between disobeying and grieving (or deceiving) a guardian who had been a father to me, more than most fathers ... and 'dropping' the love-affair until I was 21. I don't regret my decision, though it was very hard on my lover. But it was not my fault. She was completely free and under no vow to me, and I should have had no just complaint (except according to the unreal romantic code) if she had got married to someone else. For very nearly three years I did not see or write to my lover. It was extremely hard, especially at first. The effects were not wholly good: I fell back into folly and slackness and misspent a good deal of my of my first year at college. Boysonicrevived (talk) 23:25, 18 November 2014 (UTC)boysonicrevived 18:25 EST, November 18th, 2014

Fixed. HullIntegrity (talk) 23:31, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

References

Old English literature

The article notes in the "Writing" chapter: "sources of inspiration included Old English literature such as Beowulf, Norse sagas such as the Volsunga saga and the Hervarar saga,[134] the Poetic Edda, the Prose Edda, the Nibelungenlied". Except Beowulf, all of the mentioned examples are commonly referred as early Scandinavian respectively German literature!? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.90.198.90 (talk) 04:47, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

The Volsunga saga, the Hervarar saga and the Eddas are actually written in Old Norse so the sentence makes sense. The Nibelungenlied would arguably have been written in Old German or Middle High German but I don't think we need to make such distinctions. De728631 (talk) 20:05, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2014

For the Memorials section

In British Columbia, Canada, on the borders of Birkenhead Park, a number of mountain peaks have been named for Tolkien. There are: Tolkien, Peregrine, Gandalf, Aragorn and Shadowfax.

50.67.2.205 (talk) 17:03, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done, but I couldn't find a reliable source for Tolkien Peak and Peregrine so I ommitted those. De728631 (talk) 18:14, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

References

Grandparents? Great-grandparents?

The "Family origins" section includes a photo of a headstone in Bunhill Fields, London, purportedly for William Shrubsole and Tolkien's grandparents. The claim is also made on the Bunhill Fields page. The inscription (easily legible if you enlarge the image) shows it to be for Shrubsole (no problem there), John Benjamin Tolkien, d. 1819 aged 66 (i.e. born c.1753) and his wife Mary, d. 1837 aged 91 (i.e. born c.1746). JRR's grandparents were John Benjamin Tolkien and Mary Jane Stow, who married in Birmingham in 1856 (see Tolkien family), so it's clearly not them. Possibly great-grandparents? Great-great-grandparents? Or more probably completely unrelated, as it's in the wrong part of the country. The claim has been widely repeated from wikipedia, but the only discussion I can immediately find is this inconclusive thread, with a vague (and clearly irrelevant) suggestion that it might be an uncle. Does anyone know anything more? GrindtXX (talk) 00:39, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

No response to this. The "grandparents" claim is certainly wrong, so I'm deleting the image here and the claim from the Bunhill Fields and the William Shrubsole pages. GrindtXX (talk) 21:44, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Inspiration for Middle-earth?

No time to work on this right now, but thought some other enterprising editor might see whether this CNN story contains information that mnight be useful here: WWI site offers hints of J.R.R. Tolkien General Ization ^Talk 17:44, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

"See also" section is empty.

"See also" section is empty. --183.189.129.121 (talk) 11:44, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 September 2015

Typo. Under the subheading "Second World War" the third line says "a record of his traning was found" which should be spelled "training." 204.61.30.119 (talk) 17:47, 11 September 2015 (UTC)