Wikipedia talk:Schools

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Schools Project‑class

	Schools portal This page is related to WikiProject Schools, a collaborative effort to write quality articles about schools around the world. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page.SchoolsWikipedia:WikiProject SchoolsTemplate:WikiProject Schoolsschool articles
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Pupils vs Students

Can we reach some consensus (and officially document on the project page) on how "pupil" and "student" should be treated? For those studying in schools who are still in compulsory education (e.g. up to age 16 in the UK) then I have heard either word used interchangeably. However, the word "student" is always applied to those who chose to study once they are no longer compelled to do so. My strawman proposal is as follows:

for schools which educate only those who are in compulsory education, then either "pupil" or "student" may be used, as long as this is done in a consistent manner and not mixed within an article.
for schools which educate both those who are in compulsory education and those who choose to stay on for further study (such as advanced qualifications) then only the word "student" should used, regardless of who it is describing.

Discuss. --Bob Re-born (talk) 22:28, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Initially this seems reasonable, but I have come up with a couple of snags. While (UK speak) I would use pupils to refer to those in KS3 and KS4, I would definitely use students for those in KS5 as described above but I can't think of a school that doesn't do KS5 thus preventing the use of pupil in KS3! Within a school prospectus both will be used- to contrast the treatment afforded to the kids. The use of student/pupil can be a subtle way to distinguish the schools ethos. --ClemRutter (talk) 23:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The great majority of secondary schools in Hampshire - and probably other counties - only go up to age 16, students then moving on to 6th form colleges. Would that not count as not doing KS5? Pterre (talk) 08:27, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not having KS5 (Key Stage 5 for those outside the UK this means students aged 16-18) is common - many schools in the UK don't have sixth form. As for your suggestion, I'm not against using both "pupils" for those in KS1-KS4 and "student" for those in KS5 within the same article as long as it is used correctly, but I do think it may cause confusion to readers having both. --Bob Re-born (talk) 00:20, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

From past discussions where this issue has come up (mainly on WP:CFD, hence the British schools categories now sidestepping it altogether), there may be a private/state sector divide on this. Private schools are proportionally much more likely to include sixth forms and also have been resistant to a lot of the changes in terminology that have occurred in the state sector. Regarding sixth form being in schools or separate colleges in the state sector, this depends heavily on which part of the country one's in as it's usually a local decision. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:57, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Completely understand and agree. Do you have an opinion about what we should do on Wikipedia?--Bob Re-born (talk) 01:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Does it need to be standardised? Why not just use the terms interchangeably? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:23, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd tend to agree. I'd be more inclined to see what wording is used on an individual schools website, press releases and other documentation. Certainly in my locality, the 'policy' seems to be that pupils attend primary schools and students attend secondary school.Fmph (talk) 06:38, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The use of student for older children by some schools does not make the use of pupil for older children incorrect, as there does not seem to be a definitive source to indicate a specific division between the terms. A problem with the use of student is that it is sometimes used to mean specifically those attending universities and other tertiary institutions rather than those attending schools, for instance National Union of Students (United Kingdom). Personally I would favour the use of pupil for schoolchildren to distinquish from University students but I see no problem with the use in articles of student for older children to reflect modern usage in some schools. Cjc13 (talk) 11:38, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is never a good idea to try and standardise the description when the subjects of the discussion have spent 60+ years failing to agree. Yes there is Hampshire- but there is also Kent where I doubt if you will find a single one. The Catholic sector in some counties would opt out of secular sixth form colleges that had invaded their patch. There is no consistency in KS5 provision. I believe it was common in the private sector to refer to their inmates as scholars. While there is the National Union of Students (United Kingdom), there was also a National Union of School Students, which may still exist. Historically there was a different stream of funding for FE colleges (which included Sixth Form Colleges). Terms and conditions of service were different, pension provisions were different- one was staffed by qualified teachers while the other was staffed by lecturers who didn't need any teacher qualification or academic degree, though frequently had both. Its not surprising that pastoral support given in a college to the students was different to that given in a school to the pupils. Schools would try to emphasise the maturity of the older students by using that term.... Local usage should guide how the Wikipedia article is written. We cope with favor, behavior and color so we can easily take on board the subtle nuances of scholar, pupil and student using the same techniques. --ClemRutter (talk) 23:41, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am in favour of allowing local variations but at the moment these variations are being surpressed as regards the naming of categories. Many categories that used "Former pupils" have been changed and a number of categories that used the Old Fooian format are in the process of being changed to "People educated at", for instance see this debate. The changes do not reflect local usage. There do not seem to be any sources for use of "People educated at". Cjc13 (talk) 12:38, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The comments about categories are irrelevant to this discussion. As Cjc13 well knows:

A large part of the work undertaken at CfD is, and has long been, a process of striving for consistency and clarity in category names, for the convenience of both readers and editors.
"People educated at" was a format adopted at CfD in 2011, to standardise on a common alternative after years of sterile disputes over the respective merits of "pupils" vs "students" vs "alumni". The discussions are at: Feb 9, July 17, July 30, August 1, August 8, and August 17.
Per WP:NDESC, descriptive page titles are are often invented specifically for articles. No source is required for descriptive names as a whole, but they should incorporate names and terms that are commonly used by sources. That is the case for the proposed category renamings, where Cjc13 has been systematically misrepresenting WP:NDESC. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:18, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:TITLECHANGES supports my interpretation of WP:NDESC in that it emphasises the use of sources. Cjc13 (talk) 23:36, 24 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop being silly. WP:TITLECHANGES is primarily about being cautious in renaming, and it has little to say about sourcing, let alone supporting your bizarre inversions of WP:NDESC. In any case the descriptive titles incorporate the sourced WP:commonnames of the schools.
You have made the same points unsuccesfully at most of the 82 cfDs which have renamed these categories, and trying to raise the issue again here is just WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Please stop. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:32, 25 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Notability revisited: proposal for a taskforce: To improve US Highschool articles

See Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Secondary schools should meet WP:GNG or are they exempt? for the full story.

Although the RfC about notability has not (yet) led to consensus, I my opinion we can boast progress. There is a loud and clear disagreement about what sources are suitable to prove notability. Especially the use of school websites and local newspapers is controversial. Further discussion is necessary.

Also it is now clear that any change can lead to major problems. If, and if, there comes a change in the notability rules, grandfathering seems a proper solution to ease the challenge. The risk of mass nominations and mass deletions is, in my personal opinion, an important factor in the resistance/reluctance against changes. So be it, but it should not stop the process.

In an attempt to continue making progress, I suggested a different approach: first start a taskforce to improve articles on secondary schools, and concurrently have the discussion about changes in the notability guidelines. The taskforce, nicknamed by me as "Taskforce Improve US Highschool Articles", can identify articles that might run into trouble with a change and can coordinate the effort to improve those articles. It can take months before an agreement on the guidelines is reached, time enough to improve a lot of articles and ease the effects...

Finally, I don't think I am the most suitable one to coordinate the taskforce. I stepped on a few toes here and there. The coordinator should be diplomatic enough to achieve agreement on the question what the desired level to reach is. And to get agreement on the question: how do we do that? Of course, it is just a proposal to name it "Taskforce Improve US Highschool Articles". Another scope or more then one taskforce is also possible.

So, anyone willing to take up a role as taskforce-coordinator? Night of the Big Wind _talk 13:00, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it would be appropriate of me to be a task force co-coordinator at this time, but I would be happy to help out. CT Cooper · talk 12:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The silence is deafening. Is there really nobody willing to take up the coordinater role? Is everybody just waiting on the massacre and the mass nomination that is likely to come when the guidelines are raised? That can't be true... Night of the Big Wind _talk 13:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not that many people watch this page, perhaps you should try WT:WPSCH. CT Cooper · talk 15:28, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Argh, I have hit the wrong page

Night of the Big Wind _talk 18:22, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps other editors don't agree that a taskforce is necessarily the best way forward. That would explain the lack of response. Fmph (talk) 15:42, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Night I have been bold and changed the heading in order to clarify what the topic of the conversation now is. I have followed the link given and it has taken me 95 minutes to read it, and only after 90mins did I find out what the task force was proposing to do. Several task forces were implied that could have had massive remits. The parameters are fairly limited- and restricted to US secondary schools (KS4 and KS5 in UK currency) and I agree that this is a good idea. But the heading here was far to open hence the change. Good luck with the idea, I can't really help as I keep my edits to the right of the pond save on rare occasions. --ClemRutter (talk) 01:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Confusion about duplication of efforts and discussions

Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Schools#Confusion_about_duplication_of_efforts_and_discussions and respond there please. --Bob Re-born (talk) 13:59, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Westview High School (San Diego)

I have been working on this article for a while and recently it has become well known as the school the Aurora shooter, James Holmes, graduated from. Thus a "Notable Alumni" section was added and Holmes the only person listed. Many at the school complained, saying the school should not have a reputation of breeding murderers, and added fake and/or non-notable people to this section. What can be done about this? — P C B 06:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to try asking this question over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Schools. That page is much more active than this one. Are you sure he's the only notable alum? That seems odd for a school of 2000+ students. Them From Space 06:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I thought this would redirect to the WikiProject page. I will transfer this there.— P C B 06:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

File:St. Pius X school crest.jpg

File:St. Pius X school crest.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 06:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

school bullying suicides related images

See Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2013 May 20 where many of these images are up for deletion -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 03:03, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jack and Jill School

This is an elementary school. I don't think they're notable, but I'd like some additional opinions. There's a lot of sources, but they don't seem like significant coverage to me because they seem to be mainly lists of kids winning awards and that doesn't seem to set them apart from most elementary schools. Thanks. Mdtemp (talk) 19:21, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]