Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nabi Tajima

Nabi Tajima

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Fails WP:BIO1E. Since as few as 10% of people over 110 are identified, it is not credible to say this is the 4th oldest person in the world. Legacypac (talk) 08:29, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, not sure if WP:BIO1E even applies here, or if it was intended for articles like this one. But even with that, there are 4 notabilities in the article, not just one. MarkYabloko 10:21, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Lakun.patra (talk) 08:40, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. Lakun.patra (talk) 08:40, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or merge to list of Japanese super-cents. EEng (talk) 09:16, 25 November 2015 (UTC) [Later clarification]: ... per WP:NOPAGE.[reply]
Strong Keep She is one of slight survivors of born in the 19th century and one of oldest Japanese ever. She is still alive, there are possibility that become world's oldest person or oldest Japanese person ever in the near future. 4th oldest person out of 7.2 billion people is not notable? I don't think.--Inception2010 (talk) 10:07, 25 November 2015 (UTC)This editor has made few or no other edits outside this topic.[reply]
Keep Japan's koseki family registry system is very thorough and has been for a long, long time. So even if the nominator's bold assertion that there could be another 30-40 undocumented people in the world that are older than her is true, we can still be quite certain that she is the oldest person in Japan. That alone is surely notable and has been addressed in multiple sources within the article. Because you need Koseki documents to do anything related to government services in the country, anybody older than her in Japan would have to have been living in a cave for the past 110+ years. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 13:37, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The claim of notability is remarkably clear. Sure, somebody may have run the 100m faster than Usain Bolt, and someone may have conceived of the Theory of Relativity before Albert Einstein, but being documented and covered in reliable and verifiable sources is what Wikipedia is all about; Woulda, coulda, mighta arguments about who the "real" oldest person may be are just irrelevant ponderings. The breadth and scope of the article provide appropriately significant coverage of the individual and the existence of five parallel articles in our partner projects in French, Dutch, Japanese, Russian and Finnish all demonstrate the international recognition she has received. What exactly is the BIO1E that she is famous for? When did that event occur? Alansohn (talk) 14:21, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I am not really sure what the deletion rational is, something like There are known knowns. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:09, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Given the long history of Japan and the country's long history of turning out old people, how can these claims be proven? "Tajima is the 5th oldest Japanese person ever, the 4th oldest Japanese woman ever and the longest lived person ever in Kyushu." Bolt's speed record is different - everyone is clear that this is for running in a modern competition. We don't say he is the fastest person ever. All you can say about this oldest person is that she is the oldest in Japan that has good records. Legacypac (talk) 18:20, 25 November 2015 (UTC) ""[reply]

We don't say he is the "fastest person ever"? Would you like to check the second sentence of the lead? AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 21:33, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, the Usain Bolt article does say that. And I've tagged it ^{[citation needed]} since I don't see what in the article supports that claim, nor do I see what possible source ever could. It's an absurd statement, just as "oldest person in country X ever" is absurd. EEng (talk) 22:38, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

EEng and company fail to understand the essence of the issue. We are not here to prove truth. We write articles and make assertions in them based on descriptions in reliable and verifiable sources. The Guardian describes Bolt being "regarded as the fastest person ever", one of thousands of sources with similar characterizations available to source the statement. No one has run every individual on Earth against Bolt, and the word "ever" covers a very long period of time, with billions of the dearly departed who have never raced against the "fastest person ever". Bolt's achievements are based on the standards of the records and data available. So to for Tajima and the other individuals described as being among the world's oldest. We can safely disregard the chirping that there might be other people older (or faster or taller or whatever) than those cited as such in Wikipedia articles based on reliable and verifiable sources. It is the disregard for these reliably sourced characterizations that is absurd and in direct conflict with bedrock Wikipedia policy. Alansohn (talk) 03:46, 26 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

When The Guardian says he's the "fastest person ever", they know their readers will understand that to mean the fastest known person ever. Newspapers are allowed to take imprecise shortcuts like that. We're not. EEng (talk) 04:39, 26 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, it's your job to decide what's the truth, and your decision is final. You've twisted causality here; That's not how Wikipedia works. We use material from reliable and verifiable sources, whether it be for Usain Bolt or Nabi Tajima or our other five million articles. Just as readers know what it means when Bolt is described as "fastest person ever", we all know what it means when someone is described as "oldest"; It's based on the data and records available as described in reliable and verifiable sources. Welcome to Wikipedia. Alansohn (talk) 05:01, 26 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While we follow sources for the facts/assertions they report, we don't necessarily follow them in their form of expression. Thus while a newspaper might loosely say "X is the oldest person in Japan", knowing (or hoping) that readers will understand the imprecision in that statement, Wikipedia should be precise i.e should say, "X is reportedly the oldest person in Japan" or "X is the oldest known person in Japan". Welcome to Wikipedia. EEng (talk) 05:57, 26 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So we're agreeing. Assertions are based on characterizations in reliable and verifiable sources. If you want to tweak the wording for Nabi Tajima or for Usain Bolt, there's room for greater accuracy. I'm just glad that you're acknowledging that the argument that the person may not in fact be "oldest" is no more relevant than the claim that Bolt is not "fastest". I'm glad that we can now work together with that common understanding that such arguments for deletion as the ones used here are worthless. Alansohn (talk) 06:13, 26 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the nominator chose the strongest of the arguments available for deletion/merging. For me it's NOPAGE. EEng (talk) 07:01, 26 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]