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There's been tag on the article for a year now, asking for information to be included from the fr.wiki article. This is almost certainly a good idea, as the fr.wiki article is unsurprisingly much more comprehensive - but which parts in particular would editors like to seen brought over? Knepflerle (talk) 13:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Uhh, it notes in the text that King Phillip of Swabia granted the city of Strassbourg the status of Imperial Free City in 1262, but on the King Phillip of Swabia page it notes that he died in 1208. Since he would have been dead for 54 years by the time he granted Strassbourg that status, it seems unlikely that he was responsible. Voxexmachina (talk) 05:00, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Uhh! Funny what? This is but one of hundreds of times that extant printed pages or handwritten pages of information conflict with our existing chronology! Since this is but one of hundreds, just how is it now explained?96.19.156.227 (talk) 20:41, 14 June 2011 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes[reply]
An anonymous edit without an edit summary was claiming a Greek origin for the element -bourg or -burg. It is certainly cognate with English borough and may well also be cognate with a similar Greek word, but I have no evidence that it is derived from Greek. I have undone what is no doubt a good-faith, but naïve edit. LynwoodF (talk) 19:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hey LynwoodF, I will try to help you on the matter, the etymologists are still arguing whether the word has Latin or Germanic roots. If fact the word Burgus was used by germanics and Latino roughly with the same pronunciation to designated in both case a castle, or "place forte". The word really started to spread out with the Franks (Charlemagne) and the use of old French especially with the song of Roland that was one of the first song written in old French and that spread quickly in whole Europe . Is at this time that the word started to spread and some new signification appeared like Bourgeois ( the man from the Bourg/burg) and that numerous towns in Germany and France stated to bear the word Bourg in the name of the town ( Cherbourg, Lanslebourg, Bourg en Bresse, Strasbourg, Lauterbourg Cabourg, Luxembourg, Lunenburg, Hamburg etc.... Anyway, still now scientists are still arguing its possible origin, but it seems attested that the Roland song was really on the point to spread the word thoughout western and mittel Europa. I guess the word " borough" might be an "anglicisation" of the term.... Another mystery to resolve https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourg if you can read French --Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 00:09, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Gabriel Haute Maurienne. The point I was making three or four years ago was that someone had naïvely added the words "from Greek πύργος" to the etymology. Now the element "burg" and its variants exist in a wide range of Germanic languages and there is no reason to suppose that they got there from Greek.
Looking at this from a neutral point of view – I am English-born, but lived for some years in France and have studied Romance linguistics – I am inclined to the view that you have been reading some rather francocentric etymologists. I see no evidence of "burgus" in Classical Latin and it seems most likely that it got into Late Latin as a result of the Germanic migrations of the fifth century. The word exists in Old English as "burg" or "burh" and occurs as an element in numerous place names. For example, the name of the city of Salisbury in Wiltshire is attested over 100 years before the Song of Roland is thought to have been composed and even longer before its widespread popularity. The spelling "borough" is rather fanciful. We actually say /bʌrə/.
The origin of the name of Strasbourg is clearly Germanic. The city was very much a part of Germany throughout the Middle Ages and became part of France in 1681. Since then it has changed hands several times and when I lived there about 55 years ago the principal language of the city was Alsatian, an Allemanic variety of Upper German. Since then French has taken over almost completely. I have seen something similar happening with Brussels during my lifetime. It is still officially bilingual, but has become overwhelmingly French-speaking. Years ago we used to reckon it was approx. 80% French-speaking and 20% Dutch-speaking. ("Flemish" is just the Belgian name for Dutch – in both Belgium and the Netherlands it is officially called "Nederlands".) LynwoodF (talk) 11:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi LynwoodF, this is really disappointing. I just sum up some info trying to talk about the origin of the terminology of Bourg/burg. I never made a comment about Strabourg precisely. Furthermore I never said that the word was French, even more surprising, I never talked about Stasbourg as having French name origin. I recall giving city names from France and Germany like Lunenburg or Hamburg to illustrate the spread on the use in both countries. I never stated from which side it definitely came from. I just said that it is probably during the Charlemagne era that the terminology spread (and as far as I'm concerned, back then France nor Germany didn't exist), I never said neither that it was the starting point to the word, and that cities would start to adopt the term all of a sudden (the Roland Song mentioned the term so, it existed prior of the song, I took this fact for obvious.).... I said or I meant if you prefer, that it was one of the first time that the term was specified, and the notoriety of this song was probably a vector to increase the spread. What the heck the French speaking evolution of Bruxelles is related to the origin and use on Bourg/burg? I end my edit saying that the mystery is still to find. And for the history of Alsace (since you open your comment by your place of origin), being Alsatian by my mother, and my family being traced back to the 13th century around Surbourg, I really don't need a refresh of the history of the region. And for your comment about Strabourg being part of "Germany" during the middle age, I'm sure that you are aware that it is a little bit more complex (eg the proclamation in Versailles in 1871). Furthermore during the middle age, the Holy Roman Empire, was spread up to some parts of Italy, Savoie, Burgundy, eastern Belgium and many region in Central Europe. So it is not as simple as you say. But I'm surprised, at first I candidly thought that the question was just about a discussion about the origin of the terminology Bourg/burg. But thank you for your "neutral point of view"--Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 12:53, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Le plus surprenant en regardant ton profil c'est que tu es probablement francophile (on n'apprend pas le francais, et on n'affiche pas les armoiries du Dauphiné par hasard). Aussi j'imagine que ma contribution à été perdue dans la traduction. Mon intervention était liée uniquement au mot bourg, sans lien direct avec la ville dont est liée la page de discussion. Bonne continuation --Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 13:06, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hello again, Gabriel Haute Maurienne. I am sorry if I misunderstood your previous post. I was originally commenting specifically on the element "-bourg" in the name of the city of Strasbourg. It seemed naïve to attribute a Greek origin to this when the element was so widespread in Germanic languages. When I used the expression "part of Germany", I meant that it was in that part of the Holy Roman Empire which was known as the Kingdom of Germany and in the area which was linguistically and culturally German.
I looked at the article in French WP about the word "bourg" and I see that the Greek origin theory is not widely held, although I would be happy with the notion that the Greek word could be cognate with the Germanic word.
As for Brussels, I merely mentioned it in passing, because during my lifetime I have seen an advance in the use of French in both Strasbourg and Brussels. French is continuing to expand, just as English is advancing in parts of the British Isles where it was very much a second language until relatively recently. However, in recent decades the minority languages in the UK have been fighting to avoid extinction.
I would not describe myself specifically as a Francophile. I have lived in England, Scotland and France and have travelled widely in the Low Countries and elsewhere in Europe. Over the years I have discovered that, despite superficial differences, people are very much the same. LynwoodF (talk) 14:55, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Re LynwoodF étant donné que cette partie de la discussion n'est pas liée à l'article, permet moi de te répondre en francais puisque tu le maîtrise sans doute mieux que moi l'anglais. Pour l'origine grecque, je pense, mais je n'ai pas de certitude ni de source, que c'est probablement lié à la version qui soutient l'origine latine du terme. Partant de là, il est techniquement possible d'arguer de la réflexion suivante: étant donné que de nombreux mots latins viennent du grec, il est probable que bourg en provienne également toujours selon cette théorie. A croire les hellénophones, toutes les langues viennent du grec 😜. Enfin pour le déclin de certaines langues régionales frontalières, si beaucoup ne faisait pas le raccourci entre racine du dialecte parlé = nationalité je suis sûr que leur statut se porterait bien mieux. Ce n'est pas un hasard si de nombreux dialectes germaniques ont drastiquement régressé après les deux guerres mondiales, ou certains ont justifié leurs annexions territoriale unilatérales forcées sur ce simple critère. Enfin si tu jettes un œil sur les deux discussions que j'ai en ce moment, tu constateras que certains semblent mélanger réalité et fantasmes de grandeurs, quitte à inventer des sources qui s'autoalimentent. Amicalement --Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 15:27, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hello again, Gabriel Haute Maurienne. You are welcome to address me in French. I still read it easily, but since I gave up travelling for health reasons, I find it harder to compose text in French, especially as I do not have a suitable keyboard. I have lost a lot of vocabulary and find myself making grammatical mistakes I would not have made 30 years ago.
As you suggested, I looked at your talk page on French WP and I see that you have an anonymous correspondent with a tendency to be unreasonable. You have my sympathy. I have had encounters with people who do not wish to be persuaded.
There was a reason for putting the arms of the Dauphin on my user page. Two television historians (who should have been more careful) independently described the future Louis VIII as "the Dauphin". You probably know that he was once proclaimed King of England, a fact which was not taught to us when I was at school. Given that you come from nearby, I expect you know that at the time when Louis lived, the Dauphiné was still effectively an independent state within the Kingdom of Arles, which was part of the Holy Roman Empire. I was similarly irritated when a historian speaking on the radio read an extract from a 14th-century chronicle which described a man as coming from "Hainaut in Germany", and then unwisely commented, "So they got that wrong." The chronicler was in fact precisely right.
En effet LynwoodF, le plus dur est souvent de trouver des interlocuteurs raisonnables qui veulent bien échanger. J'ai eu de grosses envolées également sur l'article sur la langue Allemande sur la page de discussion anglaise. Ou il semble qu'une collection de drapeau de pays est plus important que la réalité. Par exemple insister pour faire figurer la slovaquie dans l'info box alors que le nombre total de locuteurs reconnus, concernent deux municipalités avec 89 locuteurs de langue allemande en totalité (communes à facilité), à un moment figurait également Togo et Cameroun (aussi je me surprend à me demander si tout cela ne contient pas une part de nostalgie). Plus dérangeant, voir totalement contraires aux règles éthiques, faire figurer en source .. wikipedia pour un article sur le nombre de germanophones dans une région du Brésil. Et pour conforter le tout on insère comme seconde référence une simple demande de création d'ISO qui pour justifier du nombre de locuteurs mentionne à son tour Wikipedia. Aussi il est très important de faire attention aux références, les lires et de ne pas prendre Wikipedia pour une source d'information infaillible. Et pour faire une dernière aparté sur l'Alsace, nous sommes et nous nous sentons français, nous avons combattu pour la révolution française, Mulhouse a voté librement son rattachement à la France, la région à donné nos meilleurs généraux pour la France (Kellermann, Kléber et tant d'autres) nous avons protesté contre l'annexion de l'Allemagne en 1871 (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Député_protestataire), l'affaire de Saverne https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_de_Saverne, et bien sur l'annexion et l'incorporation forcée dans l'armée nazi. On a du "s'engager", avec menace de mort sur la famille en cas de refus, et fini exterminé sur le front de l'est pour un pays, et une guerre qui n'était pas la notre. Marcel Weinum a 16 ans a créé le premier réseau de résistance en Alsace, il a fini décapité a 18 ans à Stuttgart. Et bien souvent on se heurte aux raccourcis presque raciste assimilant dialectes germaniques à la nationalité allemande. Nous sommes fiers d'être français (ça peut surprendre dans ces temps de francophobie internationale) et c'est fatiguant de toujours avoir à se justifier ma grand mère a toujours porté la cocarde tricolore sur son habit traditionnel et s'est fait enterrée avec. Sinon pour le Dauphiné c'est effectivement proche de ma région, mais comme tu le sais, la Savoie a été un duché indépendant jusqu'à son annexion en 1860, aussi nous n'avions pas de liens étroit avec le Dauphiné, nous étions tourné vers l'Autriche, et la Bavière.la France en ce temps là était probablement notre plus grand ennemi. Et sinon tu vis ou maintenant??--Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 13:30, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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There has been a difference of opinion today about the use of this term. Here is my contribution to the discussion:
"River navigation" is the normal expression in English for what is being discussed. It is perfectly normal in English to use a noun as though it were an adjective in order to modify a following noun. An expression which immediately leapt into my mind was "cliff path". There are plenty more, e.g. "cotton socks".
Hi LynwoodF, thanks for sharing your view in the talk page instead of reverting. It seems that I was wrong, (and you were right), you are welcome to cancel my edit. Sorry, but being native French speaker, I was misleaded by the word. Sorry for the inconvenience.--Gabriel HM (talk) 15:38, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Strasbourg is on the Eastern border of France, on the Ill River where it flows into the Rhine on the border with Germany, across from the German town Kehl.
My first reaction was to say that is wrong, on the grounds that Ill continues to flow north parallel to the Rhine for c.20km before the two rivers actually meet. But then I began to doubt. Certainly that is what modern maps show, but they also show several waterways linking the two rivers in Strasbourg. Those waterways have canal names, and look like canals, but appearances and names can be deceptive, and it wouldn't be the first time a natural watercourse had been obliterated by its conversion into a much wider and straighter canal.
So I guess my question is, before people started digging extra channels, was there a natural connection between the Ill and the Rhine in Strasbourg, or is the only natural channel of the Ill the one that continues down to Offendorf before entering the Rhine. Either way, I think we need to elaborate that sentence, but best to know the facts (and pick up a cite or two) first. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 16:41, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a very technical and extensive article from 1919, in French, on the subject. It deals with how in the late 19th-century and early 20th-century Strasbourg created a new port along canals that were specially dug to connect the Ill and the Rhine, whose natural flow had been modified by the Germans. I hope this helps... --Edelseider (talk) 19:13, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just a remind. Some important naming conventions which the article's lead violates (WP:LEAD#General guidelines and WP:LEAD#Separate section usage): Once a Names or Etymology section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line. As an exception, a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be retained in the lead. (Foreign language: Local name; known also by several alternative names)".' If the case is exceptional, common sense may be applied to ignore all rules. Please discuss to decide if this is an exceptional case.2A02:2430:3:2500:0:0:B807:3DA0 (talk) 03:55, 6 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this is an issue. The very purpose of an article lead is to summarise the important bits of the following article. And Strasbourg's location on both national and linguistic boundaries is absolutely crucial to any understanding of its story. It would be perverse not to include this in the lead just because of a bit of WP bureaucracy that was clearly intended to discourage inclusion of non-crucial information in the lead. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 12:00, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Anonymous users lecturing non-anonymous users cannot be taken seriously. Take an user name like everybody else or stop playing the Wikipedia policeman. --Edelseider (talk) 20:07, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To my mind, rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of the wise. In my experience, Chris j wood and Edelseider have both done good work on articles connected with Strasbourg and, if they are both happy with the lead, I can tell you all that I am reasonably happy with it too. LynwoodF (talk) 21:47, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just for the record, perverse in this contextv means "determined or disposed to go counter to what is expected or desired". Not a hint of trolling involved. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 10:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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