Talk:Spanish missions in California

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misleading name

The name of this article is confusing as hell. If you are going to call it "Spanish missions in California" you should cover Alta and Baja. You have a "Spanish missions in Baja California". Or is there some f**ed up policy to use modern day place names? Then could you say "Spanish missions in Modern Day California" or "Spanish missions in California (US State)" or some thing? "Spanish missions in California" when I wanted to know about "Spanish missions in Baja California" damn confusing... should it be "Spanish missions in the Baja California Peninsula" or "Spanish missions in Baja California and Baja California Sur" because it covers both modern day states using the historical name so make this one say "Alta" or merge the two into one story please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.107.125.117 (talk) 20:04, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hardly think this article's title is "misleading", let alone "confusing as hell". But to address the issue of California missions v. Alta California missions, I have created a redirect so that anyone searching for Spanish missions in Alta California will be directed to this article. --anietor (talk) 02:18, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

California Statehood

In the "california statehood"-section, it says that the president was negotiating treaties with indians. But it doesn't say about what. Land? Property? Their acceptance of the white government? Does somebody know? --PaterMcFly talk ^contribs 19:29, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Protect the page?

Maybe you should somehow protect the page against vandals:

http://www.chainsawsuit.com/20091202.shtml

91.156.150.117 (talk) 20:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Use of "Father" as a priest-title is unacceptable in Wikipedia

In Wikipedia, the names of priests should not be preceded by the title Father. Note this guideline concerning use of Father as a title:

Father

Use the Rev. in first reference before the names of Episcopal, Orthodox and Roman Catholic priests. On second reference use only the cleric’s last name. Use Father before a name only in direct quotations.

(Religious titles | Religion Stylebook -- http://religionstylebook.com/entries/category/religion-and-culture/titles) Mksword (talk) 19:29, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Use of the term Father or Father-Presidentes in this case is historic. During the time of the Californa Missions existence Father was the proper term. Notice in the section itself individuals are references as The Rev.. I would argue that the first entry is actually wrong because here in California we are taught and we allways say Father Junípero Serra never Reverend Junípero Serra.

Robert.Harker (talk) 20:28, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I went to the public library and checked the print encyclopedias there. Every one of them has an article about Junípero Serra. In the following-listed encyclopedias, the Junípero Serra articles do not contain the word "Father":

Encyclopædia Britannica (2010)

World Book Encyclopedia (2015)

Encyclopedia Americana (2003)

Compton's Encyclopedia (1996)

Encyclopedia of World Biography (1998)

Encyclopedia of Religion (1987)

New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2nd edition (2003)

I found two enclopedias wherein the Junípero Serra article does contain the word "Father":

Catholic Encyclopedia (1912)

New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1st edition (1967)

I submit that the older Catholic encyclopedias use the word "Father" because of their explicit affiliation with Catholicism. Mksword (talk) 23:25, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Surprisingly, WP:SECONDARY sources are preferred by Wikipedia, not tertiary sources such as other encyclopedias. There are plenty of secondary sources that use "Father" when discussing Serra and the California mission system:

LA Times: "Decision to canonize Father Junipero Serra draws divided reaction"
San Jose Mercury News: "Father Junipero Serra's sainthood protested at Mission San Juan Bautista"
ABC Channel 7 News: "Native Americans Protest Father Junipero Serra's Soon-to-Be Sainthood"
NY Times: "Last week, Pope Francis announced plans to canonize Father Serra"
KQED: "Pope Francis announced Thursday that he will canonize Father Junipero Serra"
The Sacramento Bee: "a measure seeking to replace a statue in Congress of Father Junípero Serra"
Orange County Register: "Did Father Serra abuse Native Americans?"
Washington Post: "Since 1931, the statue of Father Junipero Serra has stood in the U.S. Capitol building"

Because of this, I don't see any problem with Wikipedia using "Father" to establish somebody's historical title, then using their surname after that. Binksternet (talk) 00:25, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The title "Father" connotes that the priest is religiously superior to others who are not accorded that title (notice that a priest directly addressed as "Father" may reply with "Yes, my son"). Further, only the priestly denominations afford that designation; the non-priestly denominations do not. Using exalting titles like "His Eminence" or "Father" for clergy of only a subset of the Christian denominations is inequitable. Albert Barnes (a theologian and Presbyterian pastor) wrote the following in his notes on Matthew 23:9 : "[T]he word 'father' also denotes authority, eminence, superiority, a right to command, and a claim to particular respect. In this sense it is used here. In this sense it belongs eminently to God, and it is not right to give it to men. Christian brethren are equal." (Source: Notes, Explanatory and Practical, on the Gospels by Albert Barnes, page 260.)

I am not referencing encyclopedias as sources for the content of a Wikipedia article. Rather, I examined the encyclopedias to establish what the standard practice is in religion-neutral encyclopedias. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; it's not a newspaper, TV station, or radio station. Encyclopedias require a higher level of neutrality than what may be acceptable in popular media. The universal practice in religion-neutral encyclopedias is to not use "Father" as a title for priests, except when it occurs in a direct quotation.

A doctorate is a recognition of objectively proven mastery of an academic (or professional) field. It is customary to address a person who has earned a doctorate as "Dr. Xxxxxx". Yet, in Wikipedia articles, the title "Dr." or "Doctor" is normally not prefixed to the names of persons who have earned doctorates. Example Wikipedia articles: Albert Einstein, Henry Kissinger, Stephen Hawking, Milton Friedman, Richard Feynman, Bertrand Russell, James Watson, Luis Walter Alvarez, William Shockley, Glenn T. Seaborg, Ernest Lawrence, Wilhelm Röntgen, Ivan Pavlov, Andrew Wiles, Hendrik Lorentz

Mksword (talk) 06:41, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Contested source

The writer Gregory Orfalea is used as a source for what I consider to be questionable claims about the causes of indigene population decline. Readers should note that Orfalea is not a professional historian. WCCasey (talk) 04:29, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can we downscale the claim, or do you think it is totally fringe and has no room in the article whatsoever?--Ymblanter (talk) 08:27, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]