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Welcome to the WikiProject Professional wrestling discussion page. Please use this page to discuss issues regarding professional wrestling related articles, project guidelines, ideas, suggestions and questions. Thank you for visiting!

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WWE World Heavyweight Championship reign totals

  • "John Cena". WWE.com. He's a 15-time WWE World Heavyweight Champion
  • Burdick, Michael (2 April 2015). "Who deserves to challenge Seth Rollins for the WWE World Heavyweight Title?". WWE.com. John Cena is a 15-time WWE World Heavyweight Champion
  • Burdick, Michael (2 April 2015). "Who deserves to challenge Seth Rollins for the WWE World Heavyweight Title?". Randy Orton is a 12-time WWE World Heavyweight Champion.
  • "Extreme Rules". WWE.com. Archived from the original on 26 April 2015. WWE World Heavyweight Champion Seth Rollins battles 12-time WWE World Heavyweight Champion Randy Orton in a Steel Cage Match in which the RKO will be banned.
  • "Extreme Rules". WWE.com. Archived from the original on 28 April 2015. WWE World Heavyweight Champion Seth Rollins defeated 12-time WWE World Heavyweight Champion Randy Orton in a Steel Cage Match in which the RKO was banned.
  • Burdick, Michael (23 August 2015). "Sheamus def. Randy Orton". WWE.com. Retrieved 23 November 2015. Yet no matter what he threw at Orton , the 12-time WWE World Heavyweight Champion would not give in.
  • Cole, Michael (22 November 2015). Survivor Series. Sheamus is now a four-time WWE World Heavyweight Champion. This is incredible. This is absolutely stunning. Fourteen thousand plus are stunned in Atlanta.
  • Stephen Farrelly [@WWESheamus] (22 November 2015). "The Irish are coming? The Irish have arrived. New @WWE World Heavyweight Champion. #4times #SurvivorSeries" (Tweet). Retrieved 23 November 2015 – via Twitter.
  • Murphy, Ryan (22 November 2015). "Sheamus cashed in his Money in the Bank contract to become WWE World Heavyweight Champion". The Celtic Warrior grabbed the title — his fourth time bearing WWE's richest prize
  • "The Rock sets selfie World Record". 22 May 2015. Ten-time WWE World Heavyweight Champion Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson just added another incredible feat to his resumé

They cite the chart at http://www.wwe.com/classics/titlehistory/wwe-world-heavyweight-championship as grounds to do so, which is OR. They blatently ignore the declaration of merged lineages, which as the above sources prove, means that holding the World Heavyweight Championship also counts as a former reign as WWE World Heavyweight Champion.

These sources are being ignored and the reverters are not addressing this or how they keep removing evidence which contradicts them while failing to add reliable sources to support the claims they introduce. They do WP:SYNTH and then falsely accuse detractors of doing so.

People keep removing these sources from pages, can this WikiProject please help prevent the vandalism? 174.92.132.81 (talk) 16:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The sockpuppet investigation involving this IP and Ranze may interest some members of the wikiproject. You can find that at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Ranze.LM2000 (talk) 17:24, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well now that that unjust ban is over, since I was simply editing on a tablet I don't log in due to technical handicaps (not to pretend to be someone else), do you have any interest in actually addressing the arguments I brought up here @LM2000: ? Your above response seems like an ad hominem attack, like "pay no attention to these words, they were written by someone who was trying to engage in mischief!"

The reliable sources above have been removed from the page. Why are we opting to ignore them when we have no reliable sources stating otherwise?

I would like to negotiate with you some kind of recognition of what they represent. If we are not going to conclude "Sheamus is a 4-time WWE Champion" could we at least acknowledge that Cole, Sheamus and WWE.com staffers are all calling him this? Just as we should acknowledge Cena is being called 15-time and Orton is being called 12-time and Rock is being called 10-time?

I'm not opposed to 'teaching the controversy' but I think if we are merely going to call them 12of15-time, 8of12time, 8of10time and 3of4time, these conclusions should be reliably sourced.

That means specifically citing a source which counts 12/8/8/3 not simply linking to http://www.wwe.com/classics/titlehistory/wwe-world-heavyweight-championship and being all "see I counted this" because that is treating Wikipedians like reliable experts on interpreting the data, something we shouldn't do. If someone counts a number of reigns on that page and that count leads them to a conclusion and that conclusion is contraicted by a reliable source then we should defer to that reliable source and re-examine our conclusions.

It seems kind of absurd that WWE.com's "title history" page is being used as a source to support these lower numbers when WWE.com on other pages is reaching other conclusions.

WWE.com is interpreting that chart differently than Wikipedians reading it and writing these lower numbers are. They are the authority here, so we should be calling Cena 15-time, Orton 12-time, Rock 10-time and Sheamus 4-time just like they are. The former World title reigns are consistently being counted as former WWE World Heavyweight Championship reigns. It is not only WWE/WWF reigns being counted.

While it is true that they do not appear on the chart on the 'title history page', that page does not say anything about it being conclusive, and it even says that the lineages were merged. By the counts they give us, the lineage-merge clearly means these World reigns count. Ranze (talk) 23:46, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WWE was doing this before the unification. It has been an issue for years. It is nothing new. It is a simple misunderstanding of what they mean. WWE has not merged the title histories. They are still two titles. Sheamus is a four time WWE World Heavyweight Champion. He is not a four time WWE Champion. He has held been a world heavyweight champion in WWE on 4 different times. It is about how things are said and marketed.--WillC 19:51, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This not being a new issue of debate doesn't mean we should just considered it settled forever, we should always be analyzing this issue. The WWE has officially stated that they merged the lineages. That they keep a separate chart for the World Heavyweight Championship is irrelevant, it is a lineage merged with that of the WWEWHW, WWE.com actually says this and have made statements to that effect, calling him a 4-time WWEWHW champ. I agree that it IS about how things are said and marketed: we should describe these titles and how they work as WWE does, not make up our own more convenient rules about it. Ranze (talk) 04:51, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"The WWE has officially stated that they merged the lineages" When did they do this?LM2000 (talk) 05:40, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"At WWE TLC on Dec. 15, 2013, WWE Champion Randy Orton defeated World Heavyweight Champion John Cena to unify the two titles, melding the two most vital championship lineages in all of sports-entertainment and creating the WWE World Heavyweight Title." [1] Feedback 03:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"The Viper unified the two most vital title lineages." [2] Feedback 03:45, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Feedback. I think that means something different than what Ranze thinks it means. World Heavyweight Championship (WWE)#Historical lineage discusses the WHC's relation to previous titles and uses similar language. Despite sharing heritage with the NWA and WCW titles, the WHC's exact title history is different. As Will points out, they've been doing this for awhile and it's the same now as it was then.LM2000 (talk) 22:06, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Official nicknames

@Crash Underride: regarding your recent revert, if the "in wrestling" bullet is only for what you term an "official" nickname, why do we simply say "nicknames" without prefixing it with official?

What qualifies a nickname as "official" anyway? Have we defined such a status' requirements? Kinda seems made-up Who has to say it? An announcer? A WWE.com article? Themself? Why would a nickname given from a fellow superstar be less notable?

If this was a question of notability, perhaps in terms of frequency, I could see a requirement of a nickname having to be repeated over time, but in that case we would need at least 2 references for every nickname. A lot of articles don't even list 1 for some nicknames. Like "Red Arrow" for Neville lacks a source and I notice you did not remove that. Triple H did use it repeatedly to describe him during the Green Arrow teamup with Stephen Amell though. Ranze (talk) 00:11, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your other revert also includes an inaccurate edit summary. In Special:Diff/692741324 you claim "he called himself that once". If you look closer, I included 2 references for August 5th and August 19th. Breeze refers to himself as "face of the rising sun" at least twice, 2 weeks apart. Why did you include an inaccurate edit summary? Did you not pay attention? Ranze (talk) 00:13, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I didn't see the second one. Besides, how many times does a wrestler call them self something once or twice and it doesn't get added? It's when the WWE (or whatever promotion their in) calls them that that it sticks. That's the way it's been for countless articles I've seen over the 8 years I've been here. Also, about Triple H using that for Neville, you realize he was just insulting him right? Trips is heel ya know. Crash Underride 00:16, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
how many times does a wrestler call them self something once or twice and it doesn't get added?
No idea, but we have a huge amount of nicknames on pages which list no references at all, so I think we should give priority to those which are actually referenced. WWE is a corporation, it can't talk, so it can never call a wrestler something. Could you explain more about what you mean by the WWE calling a wrestler something? Like for example, do you mean a ring announcer, a match caller, an article on WWE? I don't know what you mean about Trips insulting Neville (he already had a move called Red Arrow, so calling him that in contrast to Green Arrow seems fitting), but insulting nicknames are still nicknames.
This issue actually came up before with adding "Captain Morgan" to Seth Rollins back in September. Special:Diff/680054025 is another example of a misleading editing summary as @EdgarCabreraFariña: claimed to merely be "adding a more reliable source". Although he did did do this for "The Man" by substituting a vague reference to Raw with an actual article (although in all fairness, when I added it, the article had not yet been published, I did so as it was uttered repeatedly throughout the show, articles usually come out a few hours after) he also covertly removed the Captain Morgan reference without explanation, even though I had twice sourced it.
I am tempted to restore it right now, albeit with some properly templated references. But I expect you might remove that too, so I'd like to run it by you first:
Ignoring for the moment of the question of whether either qualifies for your "official" status a moment, I am interested in knowing which you think is more notable. I'd personally think Captain Morgan more notable than Face of the Rising Sun because FOTRS was used self-referentially on backstage interviews for NXT while CapMorg was used by the face of the company in the company's prime feud (at the time) in the middle of the ring on the flagship show, plus Stephanie McMahon didn't correct him. When scheduling a match for the WWE World Heavyweight Champion versus United States Champion she simply replied "yes" acknowledging Cena's use of Captain Morgan to refer to Seth Rollins, something he had done 2 weeks previously.
I bring this up because it's another "2 weeks apart" instance of multiple uses. I'm just wondering if you think they are equally un-notable and if so for what reasons. I'm not saying Captain Morgan is the most notable, just that it occurred enough to be worth mentioning, and I went to the trouble of referencing it for that reason. Ranze (talk) 00:35, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think the Captain Morgan one would be fine to add, because as you said, Stephanie McMahon acknowledged it with her "Yes" statement. However, self-referential nicknames shouldn't be added (at least in a commons sense manner) until WWE has started to refer to them as such, on a consistent basis, merch, etc. Crash Underride 00:50, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Crash Underride: thanks for the support, have added Cap Morgan, now to hope and see if it stands or gets reverted again. Regarding FOTRS what if there was media coverage about Breeze being called this outside of the aforecited two video segments:

I'm not sure how notable any of these are but it got a lot of repeating:

He said he's going to become the face of the rising sun..."

  • Aug 12 WrestlingNewsWorld.Com: "Breeze will be the face of the rising sun."
  • Aug 13 AXS.com: "Tyler Breeze cuts a nice short promo about how he's the face of the Rising Sun"
  • Aug 14 WrestleView.Com: "Domo arigato, Liger, thanks for helping me become the face of the Rising Sun."
  • Aug 16 DailyWrestlingNews.Com: "loved him saying he was going to become the face of the Rising Sun."
  • Aug 16 TJRwrestling.Com: "Breeze says he’s now the face of The Rising Sun." (also referend Aug 20)

A lot of self-referential nicknames may be obscure, forgettable, and not make waves, but this appears to have made waves and gotten repeated uniquely phrased mentions from NXT reviewers at the time. Ranze (talk) 01:35, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]


I want to start this discussion long time ago. I'll give my POV, without any specific case. For example, I don't like the Captain Morgan nickname. When we're talking about promos, it's too hard. Captain Morgan feels like a joke, not like a nickname. In wrestling, wrestlers include jokes or personal attacks in their promos, but I don't see it as nicknames. Same for commentator, journalist or WWE.com writers. For example, Luke Harper. He had a nickname "the bizarre". Source, a WWE video "X is fighting the bizarre Luke Harper". I see that as an adjetive, not a nickname. Señf-referential... Breeze presented himslef in SmackDown under 3 nicknames (They call me The Gorgeous One, The King of Cuteville, and The Sultan of Selfies). Wrestlers include a lot of big word in their promos (I'm the Man, I'm the Face, I'm the Sensation...) I think, if we include promo jokes (Rollins as Captain Morgan, Taker as Obi Wan Kenobi), random adjetives (the bizarre Luke Harper)... we'll have an endless nickname section. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:41, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I see that is a good point Since I see a difference between a commonly used nickname and a one off insult made by a another wrestler. For example Heath Salter and Billy Gunn were once called the Wendy's Girl and Billy Billy Bitchcakes but John Cena and Edge respectably though neither article included these name no do I believe that they should.--65.94.253.102 (talk) 17:44, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Suddenly, Sheamus has two new nicknames. The first, some random insult/joke Big E. The other... I don't know, unreliable sources. Again, are you sure these are nicknames? Because I see all of them as insults, jokes, promos, adjetives... no nicknames. We're realy f*k with people like Wyatt, Cena or New Day during their promos. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 01:30, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My proposal for nicknames. 1, a source about nicknames. Like OWOW, Cagematch... where we can find a section about Nicknames. 2, the promotion. A source with the promotion names a wrestler under a nickname (for example: The Deviant Michael Hutter returns Home) 3, articles or bios...for sure WWE, TNA articles'll contain nicknames. WHAT TO AVOID: Journalist, commentators, wrestlers promos... (except the promotion includes them into sources). --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 01:44, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

At the barest of minimums, we need these to be backed up by some reliable sources. I've seen WrestleZone, Cageside Seats, and various other dirtsheets used by those who are adding dubious nicknames across various articles. See WP:PW/RS, anything unreliable must go. LM2000 (talk) 02:44, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with dismissing "joke" nicknames based on them originating from a personal attack promo is that this is exactly how "Fruity Pebbles" originated, and WWE has explicitly referred to this as a nickname. Your concern about numbers building up could I guess be dealt with by requiring a nickname to be mentioned more than once? Only problem there is you could have people go around deleting very established nicknames just because we haven't cited 2 sources for it. Did Cena use "Wendy's Girl" more than once? Did Edge use "Billy Billy Bitchcakes" once or more?

Requiring infrequently edited encyclopedias (these are very wiki-ish to begin with, no?) to mention something seems too high a resource. If there's direct evidence from the programs that the names are used repeatedly, it should be enough. The idea of there being an "official nickname" is oxymoronic, the whole point of nicknames is that they aren't the official names.

The unreliable sources issue LM2000 brings up, isn't that pretty much to avoid dirt-sheet predictions and unverified rumors? Basic facts like when a match occurred or who won the match or nicknames introduced in dialogue are all pretty reliably covered even in otherwise unreliable sites. Ranze (talk) 03:54, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If a reliable source hasn't covered it then it's not encyclopedic.LM2000 (talk) 05:42, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If WWE refers an insults as a nickname, no problem. However, we can't interpretate every promo to include every joke or insult, like Sheamus Magic Mohawk, Rollins Captain Morgan. We have sources about one wrestled said something about other wrestler. However, not a nickname. For example, CM Punk-John Cena feud: You are a dynasty (new nickname The Dynasty), you're the New York Yankies (new nickname, The New York Yankies) You Son of a Bitch (new nickname, the Son of a Bitch).... endless. Again, I'm against usen wrestlers promos or comentators as source for nicknames (again, because we're screw with people like New Day, Heyman, Cena or Wyatt). --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:52, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Sometimes a commentator will coin a nickname and it will stick, like JR calling Triple H "The Cerebral Assassin" or Tazz dubbing Taker and Kane as "the Brothers of Destruction". But a) that happens at a very low percentage compared to the other passing comments that don't stick, and b) it will take weeks or months before we really know that it's a nickname that has stuck (usually when it shows up on a t-shirt!). So we shouldn't use something that was said on TV once as a "nickname", and especially on tha same day it's said! That runs very afoul of WP:RECENTISM. Frankly we shouldn't treat any one promo or announcer as a reliable source at all, unless it's reinforced by something else, and even then you e got to remember that the WWE will gladly resort to hand waving and painting history in broad strokes if it serves the current and future storylines. oknazevad (talk) 14:01, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This seems like a common sense approach. Triple H is "The Game", "The Cerebral Assassin", and "The King of Kings"; he is not "The Big Nose Bastard" because Kurt Angle called him that on a couple of SmackDowns in 2002.LM2000 (talk) 16:02, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Fruity Pebbles example has a major flaw. Granted that was a nickname that originated from a insult but that does mean that every insult will became a nickname. Also, when people here are against using a name from a insult they most likely mean that they don't want a name only traced back to a single insult identified as a nickname and not a ban on well known nicknames that happen to originate from insults. To put it more clearly Fruity Pebbles is fine since it carried over but it appears that Captain Morgan has not carried over so it should not be included.--67.68.208.222 (talk) 05:40, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tyson Kidd and Cesaro

Can someone do something about this page? Editors keep adding that they "were a tag team" and that they disbanded in June when Kidd got hurt. I keep undoing the edits with the summary that just because a member gets injured doesn't mean they've disbanded. Besides, there's been no mention of them splitting up ever made. Crash Underride 06:39, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously? No one has an opinion on this matter? Crash Underride 14:18, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that there will be something official that states that they are disbanded, Cesaro will continue doing his thing and by the time that Kidd comes back he should have moved up in the card. El Alternativo (talk) 15:11, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well can we at least get people to stop saying they've disbanded until Kidd returns and see if he starts teaming with Cesaro again? To me it's presumptuous to assume they've split up. Crash Underride 16:05, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I guess that we can say that the team is "inactive", despite being pretty much disbanded for the reasons mentioned before. El Alternativo (talk) 23:16, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Merging Roman Reigns and Dean Ambrose with The Shield (professional wrestling)

I propose that Roman Reigns and Dean Ambrose be merged into The Shield (professional wrestling) and ask for feedback and support for the merge.

Please see my reasons and the discussion so far here. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heytherehowsitgoin (talk • contribs) 21:57, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject tag

I am curious to know why this project still uses the arbitrary "importance" category when classifying its articles. It seems like most of the other projects have dropped it. 166.172.189.110 (talk) 15:06, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am intrigued by this as well, it seems that the importance scale gives more importance to any midcard card wrestler that has competed in WWE/WCW/TNA than some wrestlers that are pretty much legends in their respective countries. El Alternativo (talk) 15:14, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've been changing the importance tags on alot of articles. It is mostly because people don't pay attention to those articles. It takes certain editors to get things changed. When I got here all of the TNA articles were completely underdeveloped. The ROH stuff barely existed. With time we get editors with knowledge of certain areas and things get changed. It is because of the American culture, we are very American-centric. The samething is happening on the Spanish and Japanese pedias. The stars in those countries have all of the expansion while somewhat known wrestlers here have little expansion. The problem is just not enough editors, not the importance criteria.--WillC 20:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see... Well, I am willing to translate anything that is more detailed in the Spanish Wikipedia if anyone here is willing to help me polish some of the articles that I'm interested in. I can get sources and help verify anything that I witnessed, but English is still my second language and I don't feel confident enough to nominate anything to GA/FA. For example, I believe that with a little work we can get WWC Universal Heavyweight Championship to FL, I can even expand the history section a bit. What do you guys say, quid pro quo? El Alternativo (talk) 23:06, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I can probably help expand that to FL next month. Sourcing is the issue.--WillC 09:26, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, if I am given a week or so, I can extract sources for this and many more articles from the internet archive. Also, is there any Spanish-language topic that is particularly underdeveloped? If so, I can begin by translating the articles within it. El Alternativo (talk) 21:04, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All Japan Pro Wrestling

Could someone that is familiar with Japanese wrestling (more so than I am) please come to my talk page and explain to me the what that style is? How it compares to lucha libre, the American style and the New Japan style? I've seen it on the AJPW article every time I've been there and I have no clue what it is. Thanks. Crash Underride 16:11, 6 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

AAA Mega Championship

The latest revert in this article is weird. Is Jeff Jarret's cameo of a disguised belt, that wasn't even acknowledged by its its name ever, more notable that the inaugural and record champion? If that is considered "international consideration" wouldn't Mesias' use of "El Mega Triple Campeón de AAA" as a ring name abroad be "international consideration" too (at least he made reference to the name)? What about any of the other guys that had more than one reign, or at least more than one defense? 166.172.188.89 (talk) 14:16, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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