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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 88.82.33.171 (talk) at 00:01, 14 January 2016 (Edited my last contribution.... Last of the last!). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Was this really an Annexation?

There are experts of international law who disagree with this view.--141.19.228.15 (talk) 08:47, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Right. According to retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov, it was a plain military invasion. More relevant, if you wish to propose any specific changes to the article, then please do so while referring to reliable sources. Thanks. Lklundin (talk) 09:00, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The main reason for the military intervention of Russia was actually to ensure the Referendum. It was not an Invasion and it was not an Annexation, its was just the Supporting of Separatism.--141.19.228.15 (talk) 11:11, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Er...??? Now that's what I call original research with a heavy POV slant. Reliable sources for your 'interesting' take? Added to this, please bear in mind that this is an article talk page, not a forum. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:57, 26 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The German scholar of law Karl Albrecht Schachtschneider deny the Thesis of an Annexation Schachtschneider: There was no Annexation (German).--Xiuhcoatl Kvasir (talk) 08:23, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You need actual reliable sources, not wacky conspiracies from far-right outlets. Volunteer Marek  09:10, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We, the Crimeans, call it reunification. It should be mentioned in the article as well. Francois (talk) 12:50, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that what you are saying is best expressed by the following quotation: "Point 1. We demand the unification of all Russians in the Greater Russia, on the basis of the right of a self-determination of peoples."-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:08, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Francois. Wikipedia calls it whatever reliable sources call it. If you have a reliable source stating that many Crimeans regard what happened as reunification, then that can be added to the article. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 13:13, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To qualify Spiritofstgeorge's comment a little further, it would also be dependent on whether it's deemed to be WP:DUE in the context of the article. I'd take Toddy1's insightful observation on board. Who represents the 'we'? I've seen nothing in RS to suggest that the 'annexation' is the expression of a happy, unanimous voice. Given the complexity of Crimea's history, and the displacement of the closest thing it has to an indigenous people - the Crimean Tartars - it can equally be construed to be the voice of very, very recent colonists. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:06, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sooo.. a foreign-backed neo-nazi coup which takes control of a government without a vote is constitutional. But a declaration of independence placed to a general vote is not!?

John Pilger, for example, made an interesting analysis on the subject, at the time. TRAJAN 117 (talk) 08:33, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTAFORUM, give it a break already.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:19, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits

  • This edit is using Wikipedia voice to push Putin's statement as fact.
  • This edit appears to be just an attempt to remove the hated word "annexation"

The other edits are fine but it's easiest to revert back to a previous version and put back in the useful stuff. Which is what I was going to do if I hadn't been immediately reverted. Volunteer Marek  20:16, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate that 8 minutes may have not been enough time for you to have added anything back in or make any comment on talk, but you could have mentioned when you reverted everything that you were about to add bits back in. Never mind. Thanks for your time explaining. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 20:28, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Spiritofstgeorge: Would you please stop confusing WP:NPOV with WP:GEVAL. You've been working on a number of articles surrounding recent events in Ukraine using the same methodology. Thanks. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:50, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am indeed trying to improve the articles. For example, where a source does not claim what it suggested of it, that source should not be used or the wording of the article should be changed to reflect what the source says. To revert my improvement is a deliberate attempt to keep a version which you know is invalid. But I will assume good faith on your part and assume that you just guessed that my edit was destructive without checking the source for yourself. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You've misunderstood the reversion. Given that all of these articles have gone through the edit wars and back, several times, the cleaning up process needs to be approached with care (i.e., WP:BRD). For better or worse, some content has remained as long standing, meaning that it was deemed to be significant enough to retain. Rather than simply deleting content and sources, a common sense approach would be to tag content with 'better source', 'failed verification', et al, then take it to the talk page and allow a little time for editors to engage. No content, other than potential BLPVIO, needs to be addressed as if it were an urgent matter. As tempting as it may be to want to get on with things, the purpose of talk pages is to hash out the content of the article. It's a laborious process, but there's no getting around it. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:47, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your explanation. I will raise the isues on talk first. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 17:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Part of Russia for 171 years....controversial?

I was amazed that an edit I made to add that Crimea remained part of Russia for 171 years was deleted on the basis that it was 'not very truthful detail'. I have therefore just added a reliable source stating that Crimea remained part of Russia until 1954 - leaving readers to do the Maths for themselves that this amounts to 171 years. But really, is this controversial? Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 13:45, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is untruthful. Like the rest of Ukraine, it became part of the Russian Empire. After the Tsar was murdered by the communists, most of the former Russian Empire became part of the USSR. During this time it was transferred from from one administrative area to another - Novorossiya, Taurida, Russian SFSR, Ukrainian SSR.
What would be truthful to say, would be that the Crimea was part of the Russian SFSR from 1921 to 1954.-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:06, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So are you suggesting that the Russian SFSR was not Russia? If you are, your opinion disagrees with reliable sources, like the BBC, that says that Crimea remained as part of Russia until 1954. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 15:18, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I beg your pardon, but are you trying to tell us that a brief summary/synth of the history of Crimea by the BBC usurps multitudes of academic sources who place the Russian Empire as being 'other' to the SFSR? It's oversimplified WP:SYNTH. I'm always wary of these sorts of quick overviews by the Western World. They are, after all, the same nation-states and agencies that used to conflate the USSR with Russia. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedic resource, ergo we don't conflate premises and present them as if they were facts. What you appear to think is WP:COMMONSENSE is not actually common sense. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:28, 31 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note, also, that I've reverted your most recent 'improvements' to the article. Please read the archived talk pages before going WP:BOLD... most specifically here in the previous archive. The polls have been discussed ad nauseam both here and on related articles. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:39, 31 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from question "is RSFSR Russia or isnt't" I'd like to note, that there was a Russian Civil War, during which Crimea changed hands many times (and this is noted in our Background section). So, blanket "1954-1783=171 years in Russia" calculation simply won't work. Bests, --Seryo93 (talk) 08:30, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, though by that logic Crimea also changed hands during the Second World War when the Germans took control, so I suppose that should also be added into the background history. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 11:21, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lead is a summary of the article

I am being challenged why i have moved material from the lead into the main body of the article. Simple - the lead should be a summary of the article. Information about the 'blow by blow' account of how the annexation happened should be in the main body but the lead should summarise. There are lots of individual facts that editors may feel have particular significant but the lead is not the place for them - otherwise there is no need for a lead, we might as well just have the main body of the article. Hope that explains my revert. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 15:31, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  1. You are removing information from introduction which indicates that the use of military force and annexation have been pre-planned in advance. I disagree because this is a critically important information that should be in the lead. It should not be moved without obtaining a consensus on this talk page. Therefore, I reverted this "bold" change per WP:BRD. This should remain as it was until you obtain consensus for making such change.
  2. As about your another change [1], which source tells that these measures are related in any way to the annexation? This is completely unclear from text. My very best wishes (talk) 17:32, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for replying. If you believe that the fact that the annexation was planned in advance is so critical that it should be in the lead, no problem - let add words to that effect - but what we don't need is that degree of detail. I will amend the lead to include your point. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 17:43, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but you did not respond to point #2. Now, speaking about your "fix" [2], no, this is not good. You are telling that it was planned in advance as a fact, instead of telling very specific, factual and brief info provided in the previous version. My very best wishes (talk) 18:06, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid you are now confusing me.
You complained above that "You are removing information from introduction which indicates that the use of military force and annexation have been pre-planned in advance" and now you are complaining about what I added, saying "You are telling that it was planned in advance as a fact".
Then you make the claim that the previous version was 'brief' - but the previous version would add "On 22–23 February, Russian President Vladimir Putin convened an all-night meeting with security services chiefs to discuss extrication of the deposed Ukrainian president, Viktor Yanukovych, and at the end of that meeting Putin had remarked that "we must start working on returning Crimea to Russia". On 23 February pro-Russian demonstrations were held in the Crimean city of Sevastopol. On 27 February" compared to my version which adds "but was pre-planned rather than a response to events. It was also".
So you complain that I added what you earlier said you wanted the lead to say and then you complain that you you wanted a 'brief' version when you are actually arguing for a longer version!!
So, taking into account that I have not deleted anything - just moved detailed information into the main part of the article - how about you actually explain a coherent reason why you think the detailed version you support is specifically needed in the lead rather than my summarising version. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 19:17, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The intro should be informative and objective. "Was planned in advance" is your interpretation. On the other hand, a "meeting was convened" [by certain people and on certain date] is a factual and exact information. Therefore, it should stay. This is not "my version" because it was not me who have written it. This is "stable version" you should not change without consensus if your edits cause anyone's objections, as in this case. And you still did not respond to my #2. My very best wishes (talk) 20:23, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Let's deal with your first point before discussing the second. You say that the previous version "indicates that the use of military force and annexation have been pre-planned in advance." In advance of what? In advance of President Yanukovych being removed from power? Clearly not as the meeting you want mentioned in the lead happened the day after the President had been removed from power. So what we have is a chain of events in which a consequence of the decision to remove the President from power was that Putin may have decided to plan to take over Crimea. If that is what we are suggesting, that has to be placed in the context of a detailed explanation of events - precisely what the main body of the article is for. The lead should summarise the sequence of events as briefly as it can. Therefore s sentence that sums up that the sequence of events was that 'masked men without insignia took over the Supreme Council', 'installed a new government', which then 'held a referendum', which led to 'a declaration of independence' and then 'annexation' - is what is required. Not a blow by blow and detailed account - that is for the main body.
What I am looking for from you is an argument why so detailed information is necessary in the lead - it is not enough to simply reply 'because that is the way the article was before you changed it'. (Anyway back to the second hald of the FA Cup match - chat again later :) Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 21:05, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is not "detailed information" (it is very short!), but precise and self-explanatory information. I explained everything above. Let's see what others have to tell about it if anything. If you do not respond to point #2, your another change should be fixed as well.My very best wishes (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again. Let's discuss your second point. My question is, why do you object to the bit I added about the Ukrainian authorities actions towards the media, but not the early part about the media in the same subsection. Let me quote it: "The Ukrainian National Council for TV and Radio Broadcasting has instructed all cable operators on March 11 to stop transmitting a number of Russian channels, including the international versions of the main state-controlled stations, Rossiya-1, Channel One and NTV, as well as news channel Rossiya-cable operators on.[241] They have claimed that this is because of Russian media showing them in a negative light." You will notice that what I added was an extension of this point - taking action against media which the Ukrainian authorites didn't like because of what they were transmitting or reporting. Parhaps you would be happier if I linked the addition more clearly to the earlier point about the media? I can do that if you wish. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 22:20, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So, now we are talking about #2. Here is your addition. As anyone can see, the previous paragraph (just before your insertion) tells: "On 16 September 2015 the Ukrainian parliament voted for the law that sets 20 February 2014 as the official date of the Russian temporary occupation of Crimean peninsula." So, yes, that does belong to this page ("Russian temporary occupation of Crimean peninsula"). However, your text does not mention any connection to the annexation of Crimea. Hence my objection. Perhaps they were banned because of other events? This is clearly undue on this page. My very best wishes (talk) 00:06, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, this phrase: "Ukraine disputes this, as it does not recognise the independence of the Republic of Crimea or the accession itself as legitimate [42]" in intro. This is not a fair summary of the Ukrainian source and should be removed or rephrased. This source only tells that Ukraine considers this annexation to be a violation of international laws and agreements (so, Ukraine simply holds essentially the same position as UN).My very best wishes (talk) 00:29, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Some corrections please lookup alleged in the dictionary.

I will be more polite this time, although my previous comment was deleted with the wrong reason.

I ask to replace "Russian Troops" by "Alleged Russian Troops" or "PRO-Russian Troops". This is no propaganda whatsoever. Just a fact. No one knows to what extent there were Russian troops and to what extent there were Russian friendly troops.

Then I would like to see this part rephrased: "Russian officials eventually admitted to their troops' presence. On 17 April 2014, Putin acknowledged the Russian military backed Crimean separatist militias, stating that Russia's intervention was necessary"

Can this be rephrased, please? Just read your own article on the little green men. This phrase is unclear. It is ambiguous, because it sounds as though all the little green men were Russian, when actually, the original statement was that of "we backed them", so more of "some" green men were Russian officers: “Crimean self-defense forces were of course backed by Russian servicemen,” Putin said. “They acted very appropriately, but as I’ve already said decisively and professionally.” (https://www.rt.com/news/crimea-defense-russian-soldiers-108/) Please avoid taking the previous paragraph for granted, because it is an allegation by the reporter to jump to the conclusion that the "little green men" were all Russians. Honestly, I would think that backed means that special forces were sent to help local militia structure and probably to direct them. They would most probably not deploy hundreds of officers this quick but rather use local volunteers. This is my opinion, you may have a different one, the point is that if it is not 100% proven, then the text shall reflect this and not mislead people.

165.225.80.59 (talk) 19:07, 13 January 2016 (UTC)Bernard@Belgium[reply]

And I forgot this one: but rapidly escalated due to Russia's overt support for separatist political factions close to line 99. Please provide a source. 165.225.80.59 (talk) 19:15, 13 January 2016 (UTC) Bernard@Belgium[reply]

To be clear, we can't used "alleged" per WP:ALLEGED. Regardless, the idea of these being "allegations" has passed into history. If you use sources from the present, as to opposed to those from the time at which these events took place, one will find that there could not be more clarity. RGloucester — ☎ 20:00, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Where? Give me a present day cite!!! Your logic is the worst in case of history revision. So in 1945, as is widely recognized in the former Soviet Union, Russia invaded Poland in an attempt to free its people from the Nazi rule, correct? This is what I heard in a history lecture of a 4th grade school in Ekaterinburg in 1999. Then of course versions vary from one country to the other. Which one is the right one? THE TRUTH. There is just one fact: You were not there to see whether they were Russians or not. They are ALLEGED Russians soldiers, and I am pretty sure that there were some Russians but also Ukrainians, anyhow, in Ukraine how many people have a double citizenship?
You say that this is an annexation when according to Russia this was the result of a referendum. I think that my contradiction with you is verrrrryyyyy minor in regard. 165.225.80.59 (talk) 20:23, 13 January 2016 (UTC)Bernard@Belgium[reply]
As too WP:ALLEGED: "Words such as supposed, apparent, alleged and purported can imply that a given point is inaccurate, although alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined". Exactly to the point. Alleged is correct in this case. The West thinks that. Just for your info, Mr. Putin recognized that there was military personnel in Ukraine, just like there is US military personnel in Ukraine, he did not say they were a battalion or anything else. All the other statements are PURE ALLEGATIONS.
"Alleged" is not used by reliable sources, so we don't use it either. In this case "alleged" would be original research.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:32, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard to stay polite... WILL YOU EVENTUALLY NAME YOUR SOURCES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am fed up of running around the pot. If you have a reliable source then add it as a cite!!!! I could not find any non biased media that was claiming this. If not, remove the whole sentence altogether. I KNOW for a fact there is no reliable info that can state this. NO ONE KNOWS how many were Russians and how many were not. It really looks like it is so hard to change just one word for the sake of accuracy, when this scam is entirely western biased. FYI ISIS fighter were spotted who were wearing US army boots... So Wikipedia will state that US Marines are fighting with ISIS? And that was on a picture relayed by many media output, which is not hard as the SOHR is spaming.165.225.80.59 (talk) 20:41, 13 January 2016 (UTC)Bernard@Belgium[reply]
The sources are already in the article. The links are in the little brackets, like this [1]. If you have problem with western sources (provided these are reliable) then I'm sorry, but you're in the wrong place. (Same is true if you have a problem with reliable Russian sources).Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:50, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I have a problem with that source this is a paid for media that I cannot access, and it is just one source. If it is the same quality as the other I pointed, then it is just lost in translation. I have given, in my erased change, another source, where you could read the ORIGINAL statement about the presence of Russian troops.165.225.80.59 (talk) 20:53, 13 January 2016 (UTC)Bernard@Belgium[reply]
BTW what do you have against "Masked troop wearing Russian made uniform" which is accurate and matches with all sources?165.225.80.59 (talk) 20:57, 13 January 2016 (UTC)Bernard@Belgium"[reply]
Because it's WP:WEASEL. (Also I don't think it matches the sources).Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:20, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
actually all this article should be labeled WP:BULLSHIT IMHO. This is not at all weasel. The fact is that all your so called reliable source consider that when Mr. Putin said "the local militia were baked by Russian military" he said "the local militia were actually Russian military" and you continue deceiving people. Read your sources please and refer to the FACTS. He never acknowledged what FT is distorting... I will soon write an article on the non existence of the holocaust based on renown German papers, but using edition from during the nazi era. Then I will see how important the source versus the facts are. You are deceiving plenty of students in our so called democracy and this just feeds their hatred for Russians. I was hoping you had higher aspirations, i'm so sorry. I will avoid Wikipedia and tell anyone I know to avoid it. Just thought I should share this highly reliable source with you: serendipity li cda censorship_at_wikipedia htm which is blocked by WP how come!? 88.82.33.171 (talk) 23:44, 13 January 2016 (UTC)Bernard@Belgium[reply]

"Euromaidan and the Ukrainian revolution" section needs to be rewritten

An editor has brought my attention to the present state of "Euromaidan and the Ukrainian revolution" section. As it stands, the section seems to be an attempt to shoehorn in a certain viewpoint on the progression of events. Whilst this editor's first attempt to resolve this was to remove the section, I think that a better option is to rewrite it. As it stands, the section has been tagged for PoV. Does anyone have any suggestions on how write a neutral summary of the Euromaidan for the background section? RGloucester — ☎ 22:44, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There's some weaseling and pov pushing in the next to last sentence, but other than that I don't think it's too bad.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:57, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I see that the phrase 'cobbled together' is not neutral but apart from that it seems good to me. Spiritofstgeorge (talk) 23:05, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah and in the earlier sentence I'd reword "fever pitch".Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:07, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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