Talk:Emmett Till

Lil Wayne apologises for use of Emmet Till lyric

I think the Lil Wayne paragraph in the popular culture section should be updated noting he has apologised to the family. Here is a link to the article and the letter: lilwaynehq[dot]com/2013/05/lil-wayne-writes-a-letter-of-apology-to-emmett-till-family/

- Wednesday 1st May 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.172.134.83 (talk) 14:41, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Emmitt Till - and Lil' Wayne

I think there should be mention on the page about Lil' Waynes muse of Emmitt Till in a recent (and controversial) song.

The song lyrics where Lil' Wayne mentions Emmitt Till are

'Pop a lot of pain pills Bout to put rims on my skateboard wheels Beat that p***y up like Emmett Till'

The song is 'Karate Chop'

Lil' Wayne has recently issued an apology to the family for the lyrics and the record company has also written an apology to the family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.74.59 (talk) 21:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Change the word "boy" to "teen" or "teenager" in the first sentence.

After the death of Willie Louis (Willie Ree) I came to Wikipedia to read about the Emmett Till murder. I was shocked to see him described as a 14 year old "boy" in the very first sentence. While it is an accurate description, the use of the word "boy" is very inappropriate in an article where the subject was murdered because of his race. Having grown up in the South I can tell younthatnthe term "boy" is very racially tinted and used extensively as a racial slur. Perhaps the term could be changed to teen or teenager. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.197.9.216 (talk) 20:18, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Nope. I see your point, but he actualy was a boy. When to switch to calling someone man instead could use a defined rule, however. Say, 18 or over. That is the rule used nationwide in the school system. Those in sports in high school are on the 'boy's' team; college sports players are on the 'men's' team. The racial slur aspects would only exist in context; do whites of the same age get called 'boy'? Wikipedia can do that, surely. A note on the connotations you mention that some people draw could be a useful addition, tho. 2.28.140.71 (talk) 11:56, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Jimmy Hicks' Employer

Hello!

Todd Steven Burroughs here. I'm a student of Black newspaper history. (Cited several times in "Mumia Abu-Jamal" entry. Thanks for that!)

Just wanted to correct the record you have here about Jimmy Hicks, one of the Black press pool during the trial of Bryant and Milan.

Paragraph 3 into "Trial," you say that Hicks was part of the Black newspaper wire service "National News Association." Actually, it's "the National Newspaper Publishers Association." You can look up NNPA.

I'm sensitive about this not only because of my scholarly focus, but because I used to work for the very same wire serivce in the 1990s and early 00s!

By the way, I'm also 90 percent sure that at the time, Hicks was filing for his paper, The New York Amsterdam News, and those articles were syndicated by the NNPA. Hicks' New York Times obit said he was a "top editor" of the Amsterdam News in 1955. That's how it worked with NNPA, then and now. So he worked for the Amsterdam locally, but represented NNPA nationally for this trial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.54.168 (talk) 19:19, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Till's sexual harassment of Carolyn Bryant is sanitised beyond belief here

I find this a little alarming. In an effort to avoid "blaming the victim", why do we need to sanitise or minimise what said eventual victim did? He clearly took more liberties than described, used more vulgar language, and did it continually - behaviour that by our modern standards would very likely result in charges for sexual harassment, if not assault. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.107.129 (talk) 22:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

And you can supply some reliable sources to support these assertions? Fat&Happy (talk) 23:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Carolyn Bryant's sworn testimony is at least reliable to show that Till allegedly committed sexual assault.Mikedelsol (talk) 22:35, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Flirting ?

The introductory section says that Emmett was murdered "after reportedly flirting with a white woman." Flirting is something consensual and there is no source quoted in the article saying that the woman agreed with Emmett's conduct. On the contrary, there are sources quoted saying that Emmett had a derogatory conduct towards the woman. Thus "after reportedly flirting with a white woman" must be replaced by "after reportedly having a derogatory conduct towards a white woman". Marvoir (talk) 15:59, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted your edit. The dictionary definition for derogatory is "showing a critical or disrespectful attitude". Please provide references that state that Till had "a derogatory conduct" towards the woman. Gandydancer (talk) 11:36, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I've been following the revisions of "flirting" and "derogatory comment" for a while. The evidence doesn't completely support that Till said something derogatory. "Hey baby" may have come close, but he may not have even said it. What seems clear is that Carolyn Bryant interpreted Till's actions--whatever they were--as flirtatious and inappropriate. The word "derogatory" is too limiting, and absolutely paints Till's behavior as aggressive, which isn't completely supported by facts. The editors who frequent this article appear painfully aware of their need to remain neutral. The facts will speak for themselves, and readers will come to their own conclusions. But let's not enable readers to come to the wrong conclusions by using loaded words that really don't belong. Richard Apple (talk) 13:29, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

The article says : "Carolyn Bryant later asserted that Till had grabbed her at the waist and asked her for a date. She said the young man also used "unprintable" words." That is well "reportedly having a derogatory conduct", more derogotary than "flirting". Marvoir (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

No it's not. But more importantly, that just shows your interpretation of the events. - Boneyard90 (talk) 17:34, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

And Ruby Bates and Victoria Price asserted they had been raped. Her assertions can't be turned into facts for the lead paragraph. This would have been a classic "he said, she said" situation were it not for the inconvenient fact that Carolyn Bryant's husband eliminated any possibility of there being a "he said" portion.

I'm not sure "flirting" is the best possible way to introduce the event, but I see no evidence that Tlll's words or actions would be unquestionably characterized as "derogatory". I could go with "made advances toward", or possibly "flirted and possibly made offensive remarks". Of course, one problem with the latter alternative is that "offensive" can be even more subjective than "derogatory". At that time and place, it's likely that many young white women alone in a store would be offended – and frightened – by a black teenager doing anything other than staring at the ground mumbling "yes'm" or "beggin' yo pahdon ma'am". Fat&Happy (talk) 18:08, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Although I think "flirted" is fine, since flirting can be one-sided, or can be be done despite being un-wanted, I suppose there are alternatives: "spoke in a suggestive or provocative manner", "attempted to flirt", "spoke flirtaciously", "flirted using language of questionable nature".... - Boneyard90 (talk) 18:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

According to some sources he did not say anything, but rather whisted (wolf call) at her. Gandydancer (talk) 20:23, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

No, alleged sexual assault, according to the sworn testimony of Carolyn Bryant.Mikedelsol (talk) 22:36, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

2003 Episode of The American Experience

The 2003 episode of The American Experience was a documentary film titled "The Murder of Emmett Till" that was produced and directed by filmmaker Stanley Nelson. . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.69.178 (talk) 01:36, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2014

I am a history instructor and Mamie Till-Mobley was a guest speaker for my class for three years. We met at her home in Chicago. I just posted an hour long interview we did with her on a google site I created. It is VERY high quality. I hope you will add it to the external links ASAP. Thanks

https://sites.google.com/site/mamietillinterview/

Wilsonite (talk) 03:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

 Not done Wilsonite This is very interesting, and that it is video helps as possibly to qualigy as WP:PRIMARY, but I am not sure that this meets the criteria for external linking WP:EL due to the self published and unreliable (in wiki terms) nature of the hosting. Lets see what others have to say Gaijin42 (talk) 03:18, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

wilsonite I have posted a question about this site at the External Links Noticeboard Wikipedia:External_links/Noticeboard#Emmett_Till. It may help your case, if you could provide additional sourcing information ON THE WEBSITE (saying it here doesn't really help). IE, date and time, location of the videos, who the "author" is, copyright & licensing status etc. This would help ensure that wikipedia is not linking to any copyright violations. Due to the good work you ahve done in the videos, it will be the assumption that these are taken from some documentary or something, in which case we cannot link to them as a copyright violation. So if you could remove that barrier it would be helpful. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I have added all the requested ownership info about the video on the site. It should meet all the criteria now. It is simply the video of her interview. If you search the web there is NO OTHER video interview of here like this available at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilsonite (talk • contribs) 13:44, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

@Gaijin42:, since you're already familiar with this request... — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 17:04, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

 Done Gaijin42 (talk) 17:12, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Section "Influence on civil rights"

In the section "Influence on civil rights", it states:

Myrlie Evers, Medgar Evers' wife—and eventual widow—stated that Till's case resonated so strongly because it shook "the foundations of Mississippi, both black and white—with the white community because it had become nationally publicized, with us blacks, because it said not even a child was safe from racism and bigotry and death."

According to this source [1], Myrlie made this comment in 1985, so stating she was an "eventual widow" isn't correct. As well, Myrlie's quote seems to have been tweaked a bit. I suggest:

Myrlie Evers, widow of Medgar Evers, stated in 1985 that Till's case resonated so strongly because it "shook the foundations of Mississippi—both black and white, because...with the white community...it had become nationally publicized...with us as blacks...it said, even a child was not safe from racism and bigotry and death."

Magnolia677 (talk) 00:14, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Section "Influence on civil rights" - voting

Corrected material from Whitfield, p. 62. His book is viewable on Google books. He said that 41% of the total state population was black. In the Delta, the population was (and is) majority black. Today in the state overall, the black proportion is 37%. (The state had a black majority into the 1930s, when many left to go to Chicago and other northern cities in the Great Migration.) The numbers of registered voters Whitfield refers to (265 and 90) were from three counties, not all of the Delta counties. By the end of 1955, he says that in fourteen counties there were no registered black voters. Note: blacks and many poor whites were disfranchised by Mississippi's new 1890 constitution that incorporated a poll tax, as well as later laws requiring literacy tests, white primaries, etc.Parkwells (talk) 19:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Use term "Great Migration"

The Great Migration refers to a major demographic change as African Americans moved out of the South to the North and Midwest, and later West Coast in search of opportunities. I think the term should be used in this article, as it is when most historians refer to it. Through the Great Migration, a major social phenomenon, African Americans became a mostly urban population in the first half of the 20th c. - and it totaled more than 6.5 million people. Using the term is a way of teaching readers about it.Parkwells (talk) 20:25, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Later events

Can I get input on whether the following two "later events" should be added to the article? First, this source states that "Milam's and Bryant's stores, which catered almost exclusively to local blacks, were boycotted and within fifteen months all the stores were either closed or sold. Blacks refused to work on the Milam farm, and J.W. turned instead to bootlegging." The PBD documentary about Till's murder also stated that a boycott put Bryant out of business. Does anyone have a more reliable source than the one above? Also noteworthy is that Sheriff Strider narrowly missed being shot in the head while he sat in his car in Cowart, Mississippi in 1957. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:25, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi Magnolia, IMO the Sheriff Strider info is not important enough to include. However, I feel that the Milam and Bryant info may be important enough to add. But I'd like more input from others before giving a definite yes. This effect was local, not national--would this really matter considering that there is room for only so much info in such a broad reaching article? Gandydancer (talk) 14:27, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Why is Till's father's demise referred to here as "died" which makes it appear that it was the product of something natural when, in fact, he was executed for rape and murder in Italy? this gives the appearance of a whitewash.

Also consider that whatever approach Till made toward Bryant, it would be construed today as "sexual harassment" and might need to be referred to as such for a clearer understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by James Elixson (talk • contribs) 05:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Which source says how Till's father died? How does it describe the context? It certainly should be included, briefly, if reliably sourced.

I think that the clearest understanding of Till's behaviour is by describing what he was alleged or believed to have done, not a modern interpretation of how such actions would be viewed in our particular milieu. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Question re including recent information

Juanita Miliam recently died and a news report carried this information:

Juanita accused Carolyn of fabricating the entire story. "The only way I can figure it is that she did not want to take care of the store. She thought this wild story would make Roy take care of the store instead of leavin' her with the kids and the store. … the only thing to me would upset her would be if she wanted Roy to stay at the store more."[2]

I wonder if we should try to work this into the article? Gandydancer (talk) 13:43, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Watch that infobox

Till didn't die in Money, Mississippi. It is unclear what town or county he was in when he died.

This is why infoboxes are often deprecated.

It would be accurate to leave the infobox place of death vacant, or remove the infobox entirely. --97.88.72.82 (talk) 12:27, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Disenfranchisement of blacks by "Democrat-dominated" legislatures

This is extremely misleading to those without a good knowledge of American political history since the Civil War. All the state legislatures in the south were almost entirely made up of Democrats from the end of Reconstruction in 1877 until the late 1960s because southerners so hated Abraham Lincoln (who was a Republican) and what he represented that they simply wouldn't vote for a Republican. Today, and since the 1970s, state legislatures in the south are virtually all Republican because southerners walked away from the Democratic Party for supporting Civil Rights legislation. Perversely, the south's sticking to the Democratic Party for so long in the 20th Century made possible the election of the the very Democratic politicians who eventually undid racial segregation in the south. And of course, all the former Democrats in the south, and their descendants have become Republicans now because anger over the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the other desegregation measures finally overcame the grudge southerners held against the party of Lincoln. SO — let's not kid ourselves that the national Democratic Party ever set out to disenfranchise African-Americans. It was the so-called "Dixiecrats" — and they're all Republicans now.

I removed the "Democrat-dominated" reference and replaced it with "all-white." Gillartsny (talk) 23:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The original wording was better. No sense in removing the demonstrable fact that the legislature was Democrat-dominated.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:50, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2015

he was murdered Killerninja1234 (talk) 16:54, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

 Not done as you have not requested a change. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --I am k6ka ^{Talk to me!} _{See what I have done} 17:03, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Original research: Till sexually assaulted Bryant?

Yesterday an editor repeatedly changed the lead to say that Till was murdered "after allegedly sexually assaulting a white woman." I'd like to invite the author to comment on why that isn't original research. Where are the reliable sources that say Till sexually assaulted or allegedly sexually assaulted Bryant? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:40, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

As the article itself states, Carolyn Brant testified under oath that she was sexually assaulted by Till. Hence Till "allegedly sexually assaulted Brant"Mikedelsol (talk) 02:35, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

As the article states where (beside your fervid imagination)? — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

PS: Don't change the section heading again. Thank you. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

This isn't the first (or even the second) time that someone has tried to introduce that nonsense into the article, based on zero sourcing. Even the "flirting" charge was tenuous (and disputed). The only interaction generally agreed on was a whistle - which is why I would limit the description to "whistling" if it were up to me; but since others have insisted on including the disputed testimony, "whistled and allegedly flirted" (or "possibly flirted") would be the most accurate wording. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 06:34, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

This never happened racist views at the time need to be taken into consideration as well as the hyper sexualization of young black men. They thought Till was in his 20's when really he was a young boy.

Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2015

There is a simple spelling mistake in the final paragraph of the "Early Childhood" section:

A resurgence of the enforcement of such Jim Crow mores was evident following World War II.

It should say Jim Crow laws, not Jim Crow mores.

Thank you in advance, Dane Dncat (talk) 06:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done thanks for pointing that out - Arjayay (talk) 07:26, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I think the immediate implementation of this change needs to be revisited. Going to the trouble to create a piped link from "laws" to "mores" clearly indicates something other than a simple spelling error. In fact, the surrounding paragraph is not discussing the narrow topic of Jim Crow laws, but rather the entire race-based class system and lifestyle. "Even the suggestion of sexual contact between black men and white women" was not illegal, but it could still be a capital offense. That's not laws, it's mores. The original wording said "these mores" and was changed to "such Jim Crow mores" on 19 March 2014 by Parkwells. The pipe was added three months later by Froid. "Jim Crow" was more than a few laws restricting who could vote and what section of the bus they could sit in (http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/what.htm), and the previous wording properly reflects that fact. 2600:1006:B113:6281:14E8:C473:9B00:7111 (talk) 20:28, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Undone: This request has been undone. Now please discuss it and resubmit an edit request if necessary once consensus has been reached. TrueCRaysball | ^#RaysUp 21:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2015

Metress is cited twice in the References, but his name is misspelled as "Mettress" in the Bibliography. This request is to correct the spelling in the Bibliography. See WorldCat to verify the spelling. 50.53.51.6 (talk) 17:34, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

 Done - thanks for spotting that - Arjayay (talk) 08:18, 23 October 2015 (UTC)