Talk:Andre Norton

Untitled

"She was the editor of a literary page in the school's paper[...]"

Can anyone find out what the school paper was called?

"In later years her health has been uncertain; she was forced to move to Florida in November 1966 and now lives in Tennessee."

Does this mean we don't know about her health or that it was variable? Who or what forced her to move to Florida and how was she then able to move to Tennessee?

"Often called the Grande Dame of Science Fiction and Fantasy[...]"

By whom?

"She has had a profound influence on the entire genre"

Do any other authors cite her as inspiration? Are there sales figures or awards to back this up?

I think answers to any or all of these question would help fill out the article. I found this article through Special:Randompage. If anyone feels like answering some of these questions I'd invite you to answer this one while you're at it: which of her books should I read first? —Rory ☺ 21:37, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

All good questions. I have answered the ones I could. I couldn't find the name of her school paper, for instance. Her web site mentions that her health forced her to move but gives few details. All the authors I put in have interviews that mentioned her. (ie Charles de Lint I grew up on Andre Norton, Clifford Simak, Philip Jose Farmer, Roger Zelazny, and the like).

I recommend the original Witch World books with Simon Tregarth first. The Witch World and Web of the Witch World. From there Three against the Witch World and Warlock of the Witch World. She has written an awful lot of books, many of which I haven't read :) The Steve 04:20, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

Splitting off series into separate articles

I reckon that the Witch World series and the Halfblood Chronicles, just to mention two, need to be split off into separate articles. This would make it easier to reference them from the articles for other collaborators, of which there are at least 5 (by my quick & dirty count). If no-one objects wildly, I'll get to it when I can. --Phil | Talk 13:12, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

missing books

I have in my notes that the following books are missing from this list, but I have not verified them or put them in the correct series. --ssd 06:03, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is also missing her historical romance stuff like "Opal-Eyed Fan", "The Jade Fox", "Ride Proud Rebel" and its sequel "Rebel Spurs", and so on...

• She published over 130 books, and at the present the list is 20+ books shy of that mark. — RJH 23:44, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• According to my research she has published 213 titles as books, 91 titles as short stories, and 23 books where she was editor, this does not count non-fiction writtings. --Lotsawatts 14:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Please add to this list and delete from it as necessary:

• Brother to shadows
• Shadow of Ablion
• Day of the Ness, The
• Iron cage
• Mirror of destiny
• Scent of magic
• Tiger burning bright
• Wizards' worlds
• Opal-Eyed Fan (historical romance)
• The White Jade Fox
• Ride Proud Rebel OCLC: 1636603
• Rebel Spurs (sequel to Ride...)
• Return to Quag Keep (according to Dragon Magazine's obituary (#332 June 2005) she was colaborating with Jean Rabe on this sequal to 1978's Quag Keep when she died, jean will complete it and it will be publish in early 2006.)

I have added many books by looking in the OCLC WorldCat database and getting info from there. I believe all of Andre's books published before 1950 1960 are now listed. I didn't do a comprehensive check of the others yet. (WorldCat is an excellent source of info and is probably provide online by your local library. Ask them for further details.) Liblamb 21:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I have a work of sci-fi by Andre Norton, Breed to Come, Viking Press, New York, First Edition, 1972 (haven't read it yet). The second leaf of the book has this list:

Also by Andre Norton

Exiles of the Stars

Ice Crown

Uncharted Stars

The Zero Stone

Moon of Three Rings

Quest Crosstime

I've crossed out the ones that are listed already. I have not yet found Breed to Come or Ice Crown listed. Alexander 007 09:05, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

All above listed books added. There are others listed in WorldCat. Liblamb 20:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Another good book is Operation Time Search (Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc., 1967) (does this fall under Liblamb's WorldCat remark above?)

Android at Arms

I am pretty sure that Android at Arms was published earlier than 1993. I read it in grade school, probably around 1980. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.93.38.161 (talk)

The ISFDB dates it to 1971. If you still have a copy, could you check the copyright date that it lists? grendel|khan 00:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Android At Arms first published - HARCOURT, 0-152-03497-8, LCCN 77152695, 1971, HC, 253pg - --Lotsawatts 14:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Gutenberg links---please link to the catalog.

I changed a link to a Project Gutenberg etext so that it pointed to the catalog page instead of directly to the HTML version of the etext. Project Gutenberg produces plain text versions and zip files containing the complete HTML-with-images distribution in addition to the online HTML. It also provides for a selection of local mirrors so that the load is distributed off of the main Project Gutenberg site. They request that incoming links point to the catalog page instead of deep-linking directly to one particular version.

I mention this here because it's likely that there will be more PG links---the Gutenberg in-progress list shows at least "The Defiant Agents", "The Gifts of Asti", "Key Out of Time", "Rebel Spurs", "Ride Proud, Rebel!", "Star Hunter", "Storm over Warlock" and "Time Traders" under Andre Norton, and more may be added as the copyright clearance process continues. grendel|khan 00:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The bibliography section is redundant.

More than half of the article is the bibliography section, which provides the same information that's available on the ISFDB. If there are discrepancies, I have access to the ISFDB and can address them. I propose that once the bibliography here is checked against the ISFDB's, that this copy is deleted, moved to a new page (Bibliography of Andre Norton?) or replaced with a category (Books by Andre Norton? see Category:Books_by_Isaac_Asimov). Its present form serves to bloat the page. grendel|khan 00:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Alan E. Nourse

Why the text about Alan E. Nourse? It seems irrelevant to me, in regards to Andre Norton. --Kristjan Wager 09:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Because Alan E. Nourse was assumed to be another of her pseudonyms for quite a while. It's not. Gweeks 20:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It bothers me, and actually, the way it's currently phrased, could lead someone to assume that there was a connection between the two, (other than their close proximity on the library shelves.) Hmmm, we actually don't even have any citation to show that anyone ever did assume Nourse to be one of her pseudonyms. I'm going to try rephrasing it. Marieblasdell 23:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Bibliography Corrections

It is my opinion that the entire Bibliography section needs to be reworked. I see many errors and misinformation. For instance when a title is listed and then it is stated (with another name) one assumes that person contributed to the actual writing. Just in the first five titles this happens three times. The names listed were actually the illustrators. I believe it should be stated as such.

The Empire of Dust should be removed for it is a story written by Basil Wells and appears in a booklet titled Science Fantasy Series – Griffin Booklet One - Empire of Dust / Gifts of Asti. The Gifts of Asti is the story by Andre Norton as Andrew North.

Space Police is a collection of (stories) but like Space Pioneers is only edited by Andre Norton. Although she did write the introduction for both.

In the Witch World Listing most of the titles are short stories not books. I could go on but it is not necessary. I agree that the whole bibliography should be its own page, and would be more than willing to contribute to it. Since I’m new by just a couple days to wikipedia in general I guess I’m asking permission. --Lotsawatts 14:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

No need to ask permission. If there are errors, go ye forth and fix. That's the beauty of wiki. Shsilver 14:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Collaborator?

The book "Day of the Ness" lists her collaborator as Michael Gilbert, and this links to the British crime writer of that name. I suspect this may be a false link; the book doesn't appear in Gilbert's own bibliography, and he seems an unlikely collaborator for her, as her genre is quite different from his. Can anyone confirm or deny this link? Jon Rob 09:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The Ness co-author Michael Gilbert (1947–2000) was primarily an illustrator in the speculative fiction fields, routinely as "Mike Gilbert". Michael Gilbert at the Internet Speculative Fiction Database.

Alfred Hitchcock reportedly edited the first of his four fictions as a writer, "The Uninvited" (1966), but he is not the British crime writer (1912-2006). I wonder whether ISFDB mistakenly attributed that one. --at age 19, two years prior to his debut as American spec fic illustrator.

--P64 (talk) 18:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Lyn McConchie

Bit OT, but would someone start the Lyn McConchie article? I know she's a fellow Kiwi but thats about it. Also, is there any info on whether Lyn McConchie is planning to or was given permission to continue some of the series she worked on like the Beast Master series and Estcarp Cycle of the Witch World series (n.b. I've never actually read any of her books and don't know about them in great detail so perhaps they've already finished and this is a dumb question). There are also a few other recent collaborators. One of them is finishing a story which I pressume they were collaborating on. Are and of these likely to work on her series? Nil Einne 18:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

N.B. A number of her collabarations with Lyn were nominated for or won the Sir Julius Vogel Award (due to Lyn McConchie involvement since it's an award for scifi/fantasy books by NZers) Nil Einne 18:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll rough out a very stubby start for one - I've known Lyn on and off for a number of years, but haven't seen her in nearly a decade. Grutness...wha? 07:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Separate Bibliography of Andre Norton

Bibliography is now complete and up-to-date.

Dipple, Janus & Forerunner series tied together.

Now its up to someone who knows how to create a seperate Bibliography page. For as you can see it is now quite long. --Lotsawatts 02:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur - done.  The Steve  14:59, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Six years have passed and the name has changed to Andre Norton bibliography. It's exceptionally severe in listing works without commentary. The longest prose on the page is this preface to section 2.14:

• Janus

The story of Naill Renfro who, changed by an alien artefact, sets out to protect the planet of Janus from external threats. Linked to the "Dipple" and "Forerunner" series.

Meanwhile this biography doesn't give much factual information about any of her novels, series, or even the "project" or metaseries Witch World. "Recurring motifs" (double-tagged this month by another editor; I tagged "High Hallack Library") tries to cover the content of her works as a whole.

--P64 (talk) 17:18, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

1934 debut publication, debut as "Andre Norton"

In this biography and in the Andre Norton bibliography (renamed since 2006!) we report that her first published book was The Prince Commands? The bibliography calls it "non-genre" perhaps meaning that it is not fantasy or science fiction.

Here we say, "In 1934, she legally changed her name to Andre Alice Norton, a pen name she had adopted to increase her marketability, since boys were the main audience for fantasy.[1]"

Had she adopted the pen name for all purposes, including submission of The Prince Commands (and perhaps her prior effort)? Was The Prince Commands originally published as by Andre Norton, Andre Alice Norton, whatever? Are we correct to call it non-genre and imply it is not fantasy? Does it belong in another genre with a boys market?

Notes from Andre Norton at the Internet Speculative Fiction Database:

• Who published the debut book? ISFDB says "D. Appleton-Century Company" --and also report a Danish-language edition in 1937, not bad under all curcumstances!
• ISFDB also calls the first effort Ralestone Luck non-genre and reports that Appleton published it in 1938 with illustrations and cover art by James Reid.
• ISFDB lists seven "non-genre" books published 1934 to 1949 and —(now I am skimming and errorprone)— those are the seven earliest books credited to her.

This biography should cover her first publisher (Appleton) and her first genre publisher and/or the publisher who first provided a secure outlet for her genre writings.

We say D. Appleton & Company and The Century Company merged in 1933. (Which month? When did Norton first submit a manuscript to Appleton–Century or one of its predecessors? Did the merger give her a break or a setback?--we'll never know)

Some publisher data should be in the bibliography, of course.

--P64 (talk) 00:36, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

(Tom Doherty Associates/Tor Books, 1983; ISBN 0-523-48058-X) claims in the front cover banner "First Time in Paperback!" (ISFDB is not reliable on this point, but fits.[1]) No subtitle, no illustrations.

Author's note

Once, some few years ago, a boy begged a story of me. It was to be of "sword fights and impossible things." I complied as best I could with this imaginatary tale of Courts and Castles, Crown Princes and Communists. The telling of it was not in days, or weeks, but in months. However, I fulfilled my promise.

Here, John, is your story of "impossible things."

--P64 (talk) 20:58, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Reviewed as male (he, his)

In eight reviews from 1958 to 1963, including the four Time Traders novels, Kirkus Reviews identified Andre Norton as male (he, his).

She was female (her) in the 1957 review of Sea Siege[2] and not identified by gender (or female which I may have missed) in 15 other reviews pre-1958.

Most reviews do not use s/he or her/s but not long after 1963 Norton became Miss Norton sometimes, eventually the Grand Dame "of the genre" or whatever, which implied the point clearly. I wonder whether the masculine pseudonym helped the epithet Grand Dame gain currency.

that is, as a way to preempt the jump from name 'Andre' to conclusion male.

Early in the careers of Norton and Virginia Kirkus, reviews commonly identified the gender of readers --not all readers, of course, but those notable for purposes of the review.

• 1942,[3] "Girls will realize what strength and persistance it took in those days to fight through life--present day hardships will not seem so difficult."
• 1948,[4] "Well-sustained, action-packed pirate yarn which should provide good material to bridge that gap for the boys emerging from the comic book stage."
• 1949,[5] 'Straight adventure, well done, a good "bridging book" to use as bait for the comic addicts.' --a preoccupation of Virginia Kirkus? and/or children's and school librarians?
• 1960,[6] "A boy's story, packed with adventure and fancy."

--P64 (talk) 18:37, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Interesting. I would just take that to mean that the reviewers saw a male sounding name and made an assumption. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 18:48, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, so it suggests that the task of reviewing Andre Norton fell to someone new in 1958, and that Virginia Kirkus did not any longer even lightly edit all of the reviews personally, and of course that Norton was not yet the 'Grand Dame'.

Our articles on the three sequels to The Time Traders do quote from their Kirkus reviews, correcting his to [her] or to his [sic] without comment, also without proper reference. Let me improve that ...

-done in course of major revision for The Beast Master (1959), not yet for any other --P64 (talk) 22:07, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Uncertain health when?

(quote 1. Biography) In later years, as Norton's health became uncertain, she moved to Florida in November 1966, and then to Murfreesboro, Tennessee. From February 21, 2005, she was under hospice care.

(quote 4. High Hallack Library) The facility was opened on February 28, 1999, and operated until March 2004. ... The declining health of Andre Norton was one of the leading causes of its closing.[24]

In 1966 she was in her prime as a writer (The Encyclopedia of SF suggests that she peaked in the 1970s). She undertook the High Hallack project late in the 1990s. I doubt the 40 years of uncertain health.

--P64 (talk) 16:01, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Good point, I think we definitely need that clarified. 50.151.230.203 (talk) 08:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I found (and added) a reference to her ill health starting in 1950. Ill health in this case probably means could no longer work a usual job, (in fact, it says "Forced by ill health to resign her post in 1950") which would explain the increase in her writing.  The Steve  09:55, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It looks like the 40 years of uncertain health is true. I have added a source for her move in 1966 for health reasons, and changed the paragraph order to be more chronological.  The Steve  10:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

More than 50 years, even. Sounds like some kind of chronic health condition. Thanks for finding that. 50.151.230.203 (talk) 17:06, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

The High Hallack subsite (now ref#26) provides more information that should be incorporated here. Evidently the "High Hallack Genre Writers' Research and Reference Library" venue was one of two buildings on AN residential property. Writers and researchers invited to use the facility, no more than four at a time, were also invited to live one week in her house, no fee, donations accepted. She moved to a mother-in-law apartment probably during March 2004 when the library collection and real estate were sold (and much personal property, i'm sure).

The 2012 Norton Award Blog Tour [7] includes a bit that I'll try to remember to include here. Evidently the award established Feb 2005 was her own initiative. --P64 (talk) 22:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

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