Talk:Magyarization

voting system

this is nuts! The common voting system wasn't widespread across Europe til the early 20th century ... --fz22 22:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If the voting system in KOH was so "democratic", how you explain the fact that Hungarians that participated in population with 54.5% participated in voting with 60.2%, while Romanians that were second largest group in the Kingdom participated in population with 16.1%, but only with 9.9% in voting? PANONIAN (talk) 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

this is not unusual even today ... your datas shows nothing. Take a look over Romanian elections eg from 1996, 2000 --fz22 20:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To look what? I have no data about Romanian elections. PANONIAN (talk) 22:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There was a +/- 5% deviation in participants number between the Romanian majority and the Hungarian minority population in Transylvania. There are regions where the percent of Hungarian participants was higher and vice versa ... --fz22 07:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Plus the Hungarian voting system was based on property status, degree of education in the 19th century. The first modern style election in Hungary was held in 1918 (when women got the right to vote) BTW political feminism: they were forbidden from voting just to Magyarised them ... according to your logic: yes ;) ?!? --fz22 07:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question of elections in Romania is certainly a proper subject of some other article, not of this one. Also, I would agree that not entire voting system in KOH served Magyarization policy, but much of it did. PANONIAN (talk) 15:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I gave you as an example to illustrate that such a think could happen even today and it has nothing to do with magyarization. --fz22 08:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Read the external link, the part on elections. No further comments are necessary. When I have the time, I will take over quotes, anyway, because I see that otherwise you will deny every single sentence here... And the situation in other European countries was not comparable to the fascist conditions in the KoH in the late 19th century and early 20th century whatever you say, And for your information, there were periods when the Slovaks (some 2 million persons) had exactly 0 deputies (so much for numbers) in the parliament. This cannot happen in other countries other than countries in rain forests, Nazi Germany etc. Juro 10:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so let's see some exact datas: In Transylvania there were around 25,000 voters which number increased slowly to 150,000 until 1914. As i mentioned before the voting system was based on property status thus the urban population (100,000) was represented by 23 congressman and the population of the old counties (~1,200,000) had only 20 representatives in the Parliament. Thus 25% of the Saxons (we are talking about the adult male population), 20% of the Magyars and only 9% of the Romanians had the right to vote. The Romanians thoght that this is the "biggest dishonour to them" (as it is stated in a Romanian Memorandum from 1882) which is absolutely true. But in accordance to the hungarian public opinion from Transylvania "the system was favourable to Romanians but they just cannot exploit it" which also could be the truth considering every single electoral district (in Romanian teritories consisted of 800 voters, 1400 in Szekelyland). Things are more subtle than you think. --fz22 12:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is incredible that a person unable to write one correct sentence about history teaches me about "subtility", I am talking about really happened and not about what someone has declared or not declared. Read the external link. And as for the subitility: the Slovaks had 0 to 4 duputies in the 420 members parliament (not 4% but 4 persons), and in practise they were prevented from voting on ethnic grounds. That is the only thing that matters. Not only the voting system was bad, there were no free elections even at that bad level. The non-free elections had both political and magyarisation reasons and they must and will be mentioned here. Juro 13:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Colonisation

We should make a clear distinction between the post Ottoman war re-colonisation and the period after 1867 ... The first has nothing to do with Magyarization, it was just an attempt to repopulate an once prosperous territory --fz22 22:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is no so "clear" distinction between colonisation before 1867 and after this year. The 18th century colonisation had 2 goals: 1. one was to increase number of inhabitants in the area, 2. the second one was to populate area with "certain ethnic elements". My source (book number 5 in references) claim that Hungarian duke Gražalković created colonisation plan with purpose that "Bačka gain Hungarian ethnic character". Fact is that Magyarization did not started in 1867 but in 1000 AD when KOH was created, but it was most intense in 1867-1918 period. That however does not mean that we should not write about events in other time periods. PANONIAN (talk) 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sure but that "certain ethnic element" was definetely not Hungarian. Hungary cleared of Ottomans became part of the Austrian Empire by right of armed conquest so thay were reponsable for colonisation until 1867. Plus you cannot compare such a vaste repopulation happened in the 18th century (millions of new settlers arrived) and settling down a few thousand of Szekelys (from Bukovina) in Vojvodina (around 1880) ... --fz22 08:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The "certain ethnic element" was both, German and Hungarian. Austrian authorities have settled Germans in the area, but the local Hungarian landowners have settled Hungarians. The Hungarian duke Gražalković had clear Magyarization intentions when he settled Hungarians in his possessions. And I would not say that only "few thousand of Szekelys" settled in the area. Much more Hungarian colonists settled there. See these numbers: in 1880-1900 period, ordinary population growth in the KOH was +10.3%. Now, let compare what was ordinary population growth of Serbs and Hungarians in the same time period in the cities of Vojvodina: Serb population growth was -19.5%, while Hungarian was +105.2%. What that tell you about both, (Hungarian) colonization and (Serb) emigration? PANONIAN (talk) 14:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And by the way, do you know at all what a population growth of +105.2% means? Let just say that it is five times larger than the current population growth of Albanians in Kosovo (which is about +20%, and which is largest population growth in Europe!!!) I think no further comment is needed about this colonization. PANONIAN (talk) 14:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The entire history of lands later known as Vojvodina is about colonization.

14.th century -the Serb refugees settled in South Hungary.

15.th century -ditto.

16.th century -the Turks settled the Serbs in they elayets (former South Hungary).

1690 -the Austrians settled the Serbs.

1739 -ditto.

after 1718 -the Austrians settled the Germans.

18.th century -the first Hungarian settlers (and Slovak, Rusyn), and silent colonization from south and east.

First half of 19.th century -silent colonization of mostly Hungarians and Germans, and leakage from south.

Until 1914. -mostly Hungarian settlers.

Between two wars -Serbian colonists (dobrovoljci & others).

1941 -Hungarian settlers from Bukovina.

1945 -Serbian and Montenegrin colonists were settled in former German towns villages and houses.

Between 1948 and 1990 -silent colonization, mostly from Bosnia.

From 1990 -three waves of colonization 1991-92, 1995, 1999.

And what is next? Bendeguz 21:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, name Vojvodina dates from the 9th century, but that is another subject. Of course you forget to start your story with Hungarian colonization in the 10th century (in what was then South Slavic-inhabited land). And most important thing is that since this article discuss Magyarization, only colonizations relevant for the subject should be discussed here. However, you are right in one thing: Magyarization via colonization in fact started in the 10th century (not in 18th), thus something about this early colonizations could be said too. PANONIAN (talk) 23:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Austrian princes magyarizing to the left and right in a time when the Hungarian language is not allowed to be an official language by the Habsburgs. This article is getting more and more exciting as it develops. Perhaps you should also consider including a section on Harry Potter.... Alphysikist 20:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Magyarization had many aspects, and it were not Austrian princes that Magyarized land by colonization, but ethnic Hungarian land owners. PANONIAN (talk) 23:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Unwittingly"

"Countless personal names were Magyarized in a short period of time, often forcibly or unwittingly." How can a name be "unwittingly" Magyarized? Who is it asserting was unaware of this happening? - Jmabel | Talk 03:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unwittingly is probably not the correct adverb to use, however, Magyarization of personal names was fashionable at the period (we are talking about the era of dualism), just as the Anglicization of many immigrants to America is a common process (like many Asians choosing English first names because their original names are hard to pronounce/or memorize for Americans. One should therefore be aware of the spontaneous aspects of Magyarization (economic progress, social advancement, elevation to middle class). A similar (yet successful) process occurred in France (or still occurring, see Alsace) where at the beginning of the 19th century, only 50% of the population spoke French but by the turn of the 20th century, the country had been successfully homogenized (often by much more drastic means than in the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy). One should also not forget the suppression of Gaelic languages in the United Kingdom. Árpád 07:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe person that wrote that sentence wanted to say "Unwillingly" instead of "Unwittingly". PANONIAN (talk) 22:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks PANONIAN, you're probably right. And, if so, it was redundant to "forcibly". Árpád, I'm not sure why you think I was arguing with any of the rest of this, my issue was simply over an ill-chosen word. - Jmabel | Talk 23:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pan-Slavism and Nationality Act of 1868

Although one of my previous contributions has been deleted as "spam" (I intended none of the sort), I would still wish to keep a reference to the original web source (István Sisa: The Spirit of Hungary) regarding Pan-Slavism: http://hungarian-history.hu/lib/hunspir/hsp40.htm. It is important to note that the closure of the Matica and the Slovak high-schools (where for instance, Hungarian symbols were regularly desecrated by the teachers) happened at the initiative of the local county officials who complained about their subversive activities (The Palatine of Zólyom County, Béla Grünwald complained about contemporary Slovak leaders who were small-time corrupt crooks who embezzled the financial assets of their institutions). After the closure of the Matica, its financial assets were invested for Slovak cultural purposes, like the "Tót Közművelődési Egyesület" (Slovak Cultural Association). One should also not underestimate the reactionary aspect of Pan-Slavism as they wanted to subjugate the whole Central European region to Czarist Russia, and fighting against the Hungarian Revolution and Freedom Fight in 1848-49. Also, the article should emphasise that the Act on Nationalities (1868) was probably the most progressive and tolerant piece of legislation around that time in Europe (it is instructive to compare it with contemporary French practices where the Breton language got virtually annihilated).Árpád 07:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arpad, your post is spam because this is not article about Pan-Slavism. By all means go to Talk:Pan-Slavism and discuss this issue there. Regarding Act on Nationalities from 1868, it did formally gave some rights to nationalities, but as one Serbian historian wrote "the problem with that act was that no single word of it was ever implemented in practice". That was adopted only for outside World to hide the true nature of Magyarization policy in the country. PANONIAN (talk) 22:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The non-implementation of the law is an undisputable fact, not only one Serbian historian wrote it. It is also decribed in the external link, where one can see that even the then Hungarians were surprised when they were confronted with how they permamently violate exactly that law. Secondly, Arpad, you are lying again, and that is the most incredible lie I have heard in this context. The associations founded from the money stolen by the government (because the money was given to the Matica by the emperor and by private persons as a gift and was simply confiscated by the Hungarian government) were explicitely associations, whose official aim was to Magyarise Slovaks (issue Magyar books etc.) Juro 11:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Emigration

We should specify here the direct cause of the emigration. People mainly moved for economic reasons (labour migration) and 25% of the emigrants returned until 1918 (this was stoped after WWI). They mostly left the country to gain enough money to buy a house, land, etc. eg. only 1% of the Romanians left for the Kingdom of Romania ... --fz22 11:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do not deny that economic reasons were important for emigration (that is why ethnic Hungarians also emigrated from the country), but fact is that much more emigrants were non-Hungarians, thus many of them did not emigrated only because of economic reasons, but also because they were oppressed by the state policy. PANONIAN (talk) 15:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is an opinion please provide us sources which support your theory. And specify it in the article that x% of the emmigrants were political refugees ... --fz22 08:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Source is provided, and the exact percent of non-Hungarian emigrants that emigrated for other reasons than economical could be provided by the statistical calculation which would compare participation of non-Hungarians in the KOH (51.9%) and their participation in emigration (72%). I do not think that such calculation is necessary, because anybody could compare 51.9% with 72% to see the difference. PANONIAN (talk) 14:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And please do not try to say that they emigrated from the poor areas, because one of the main centres of emigration (Bačka and Banat) was also the main centre of massive Hungarian colonization. PANONIAN (talk) 14:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Panonian this is totally nonsense what you and Kirilović write about Kunard. Maybe you should read more history books. I must award you. Bendeguz 20:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But was it same company? Link you provided say nothing about society in Hungary. PANONIAN (talk) 00:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kelenbp

Please do not play this game with me. You object that name Gražalković is Serbian. But is that a reason to delete entire paragraph??? I do not think so. Serbian books usually translate foreign names into Serbian script, for example English name John Smith would be written as Džon Smit in Serbian text. So, in the book I have, Gražalković is written as Gražalković and I do not know what are the variants of this name in other languages. However, the book say that he was Hungarian duke, so that is what he was, no matter that he had South Slavic surname (this only imply that he was Magyarized South Slav). I do not know more about his function or about his plan. I simply wrote here what my source say (and I quoted that source), so you have no reason to delete entire paragraph. Regarding Bačka, the article here speak about current region of Bačka, not about historical Bacs-Bodrog county. Name of Bacs-Bodrog county is written in Hungarian in this article, and alternative Hungarian name for Bačka is written in the Bačka article. PANONIAN (talk) 15:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He's name was Antal Grassalkovich. He was baron, later count. He is famous for his role in settling in thousands of germans to Hungary. I found no confirmation of the theory your source presented. After the Turks were driven out the country lost 60-80% of its inhabitants. This lead to the settling in of germans, serbs and others. Serb refugees already setled in to Bácska and Bánát and more was settled in for military purposes. Ther was not enough Hungarians to populate the country, let alone that organize a huge resettlement to separate and Magyarize a numerous ethnic group. In 1787 only 29% of the population was Hungarian. I suggest the removal this whole paragraph. --Al345 21:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"No confirmation of the theory?" But that is not a theory, you can see quite detailed description of the Hungarian colonization in the 18th century here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians_in_Vojvodina#History PANONIAN (talk) 23:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's always a problem if you work by using one simple source. If you see this case a little NPOV you could easily find the nationalist way of thinking behind your source. Wikipedia shouldn't be a place for POVs and I thought you understand that. In this csae I prefer deleting this paragraph,as it is can not be proven that Grassalkovich has anything to do with Magyarization. Person names should be used in their original forms, similar to geogr. names. The Hungarian name of Bacska region should be mentioned because of two reasons: 1. Half of the region is still in Hungary, 2. at the time of "magyarization" the whole region was a part of Hungary. If you want, we could start to talk about the Serb colonization in the same region in the 1920ies as well...

--kelenbp 00:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sockpuppetry

No offence for anybody, but it would be interesting that certain nicknames (I will not say which ones) that appear only in certain places could be chechked for sockpuppetry. This is only suggestion, and I will not say the names (but some people will certainly understand my post). As I said, no offence for anybody. :) PANONIAN (talk) 00:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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