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Methinks the opening paragraph needeth cleaning - could his many names not be presented in a slightly more elegant way? elvenscout742 20:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok enough of this talk. For those of you who doesn't know, it is wrong to consider Ho as a nationalist. Don't just read books from the VCs and watch those movies on Vietnam war on TV, but look for the facts yourself. And by the way, [Nguyen Ai Oc] is not his name. He stold all the credits from a group of people who were really the nationalists in France at the time called "Nguyen Ai Quoc" and named himself. It is an insult to call him by Nguyen the patriot. Oh one more thing if you don't know anything about the comunists or what the Americans did to South Vietnam then don't open your mouth!!!
Was he born Nguyen Tat Thanh or Nguyen Sinh Cung? Are these the same name? Is there a preferred way of transliterating Vietnamese? Help! Mswake 13:40 Sep 10, 2002 (UTC)
No, they're not the same name. He was orignally named Nguyen Sinh Cung; Nguyen Tat Thanh, Nguyen Ai Quoc, Ly Thuy, and Ho Chi Minh are aliases that he, like any good communist, used. The Vietnamese language uses the Latin alphabet, so there's no need for any system to tranliterate names, all you need is to remove the diacritical marks. 128.195.100.178 02:38, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Okay.... First of all the comment at top is completely ridiculous rubbish. Second of all, Nguyễn Tât Thanh was not an alias, but a name he received due to Confucian traditions. --Ionius Mundus17:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As you seem to think that you can do it better, let's see you put your actions where your edits are.
This article is very careful to mention (in some detail) the actions of his supporters (calling him "Uncle Ho", mourning him, etc.) and leaves the distinct taste that it is providing only one side of a controversial figure. Where does it provide for the massive criticism Minh has received?
You know, Not everybody loved Ho as much as the author of this article wants us to think. Millions of Americans, South Vietnamese, etc. DO regard him as a repressive communist dictator.
South Vietnamese regarding Ho Chi Minh as a repressive dictator.... That's funny considering Ho Chi Minh died in 1969, six years before the NVA conquered the South.
Where will this be mentioned. In the article itself? In a link?
I will not revert the edits you have made YET. I challenge you to balance this thing yourself.
ANTI-COMMUNIST, why don't you get a regular username and sign your postings with ~~~~, so others can follow your posts and know who's talking? It would help a lot. Thanks, Cecropia | Talk 19:39, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
For the record, I have not been an active editor of this article. Actually, I did not add any of the content that the anon is calling into question (hence my removal of the to 172, from anticommunist heading). If he thinks he sees slanted content in the article, it's best to fix it, as opposed to adding yet more slanted content adapted to his ideological comfort zone. 172 04:26, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It is true that many South Vietnamese regarded him as a dictator, but many didnt. There were huge supporters of the communists in the South, and that what made the South with American support lost the war. Please remember that fact. Please dont say something like the South Vietnamese hated him, and the North Vietnames loved him, because its not true!. Some liked him and followed his idea, some didnt, that's all
Quotes
At least one of these quotes ("Two, Three, Many Vietnams") belongs to Che Guevara not Ho Chi Minh, could someone have a look over the quote lsit to see if anyone else has snuck in some quotes from other Communist/Socialist Revolutionaries
Name
Where did we get the claim that Ho Chi Minh means 'He Who Enlightens'? That isn't accurate. It doesn't really--Bnguyen 10:42, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) "mean" anything at all, any more than Lyndon Johnson means 'linden tree whose father was named John'. Shorne 03:20, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ho Chi Minh more accurately means "Ho who enlightens." Since it is an alias, I think Ho must have chosen it for its meaning. Also, Vietnamese names often have clear meaning, and parents who name their kids usually name them in the hope that their children will embody the characteristics described in the names. DHN 07:16, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
While Ho used various pseudonyms, his original name, according to the Vietnamese government was Nguyen Ai Quoc.--Sentience 03:26, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Nguyễn Ái Quốc was most likely a pseudonym. It means "Nguyễn the patriot". The Encyclopedia Britannica said that his original name was Nguyễn Sinh Cung. DHN 03:35, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
photography of Ho Chi Minh
-Ho Chi Minh is a very inspirational leader, noted by some Vietnamese and other Anti-Communist has not a true Nationalist because of his belief in communism.
-Eventhough, his end result was to unite Vietnam, under one government.
-His photographs of him laying in state is very inspirational, and if anyone knows of how the government operates, you can be arrested for taking a photograph. The importance of this is very viable and we here at wikipedia should share this with the the people.
-For Example having a photograph of Lenin or Mao, lying in state would be very inspirational to have here, because they are Icons and the significants to have this leaders photographs shows the humanity and the duration of the life lives on with the connection that tourists, followers or just historians cn view is significant.--Bnguyen 10:42, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Interesting reasons. I'm personally bias against him because I fought for the United States against North Vietnam from 1968-1970--198 05:29, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It seems inappropriate to have a photo of Ho Chi Minh dead as the leading picture. There is a picture of Lenin dead in his Wikipedia article, however it is not the first picture shown. — J3ff 01:19, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree, and feeling bold, I just moved the pictures around. I removed some of the captions to make things fit better, but whoever can improve stuff, feel free ;) Shanes 01:42, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I also agree, and was going to rearrange the images (stacking all three at the top broke the layout on my browser), but Shanes beat me to it. Every biography article I've read here uses a portrait as the first image if one is available, and I don't see why this one should be an exception. —Charles P.(Mirv) 01:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree. Alive should be the leading pic of anyone. In-state should just accompany the 'death/rememberance' section. Niteowlneils 16:50, 10 Feb 2005
The decision to wage this war was not for the people of Vietnam but to satify the greed of his alliances, Soviet and China. Instead of setting peaceful negotiations he stupidly pursuit war which led to more than 3 million death of Vietnamese people. He made Vietnam and center of entertainment for the whole world enjoy watching and reading news of the war for decades.
and
But the real truth has been revealed, he slept with many women and his real offprings are kept highly secret. Nong Duc Manh has been identified his son which came from the period Ho Chi Minh stayed in tribal villige. Discussion of this will lead to jail for sure.
--Silas Snider (talk) 04:47, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
What do you mean by "Instead of setting peaceful negotiations". please state it clearer! Please also show your source of evidence :)
May 2 Quote
"In (Lenin's Theses on the National and Colonial Questions) there were political terms that were difficult to understand. But by reading them again and again finally I was able to grasp the essential part. What emotion, enthusiasm, enlightenment and confidence they communicated to me! I wept for joy. Sitting by myself in my room, I would shout as if I were addressing large crowds: "Dear martyr compatriots! This is what we need, this is our path to liberation!" Since then (the 1920s) I had entire confidence in Lenin, in the Third International!"
chaunpq@netscape.net
Who first created this article and is the original source file still in the database? The language in this article makes me feel like it's written by someone who is not very good at English or is written by a child.
The text has been changed many, many times since the article was originally created. The simplistic language is a product of the frequent need to find compromise. DJ Silverfish18:55, 13 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a Beast???
I'd really like to know what the deal is with the line, "His most famous quote is 'I'm a Beast'." I tried to edit it out, but the line doesn't appear in the source code.... and I'm a tad confused. If anyone could remove it, I'd be quite appreciative.
Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
Oppose: the diacritics is too clunky and not familiar to most English speakers. Even Ho Chi Minh himself used the non-diacritic version when communicating with English speakers [1]DHN02:02, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Support Diacritics are allowed on Wikipedia, and it's not as if the article is going to change to chinese script or anything. Don't really see a problem with this, a redirect will do. Gryffindor12:40, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Undecided: Can you supply a reliable source indicating that those diacritics are what Ho Chi Minh himself used? Otherwise this is original research. --Bk013:13, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It is clear that the normal Vietnamese representation of his name is Hồ Chí Minh. I don't think there's anything going on here that would fall under Wikipedia's policy on original research. - Haukur Þorgeirsson16:52, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It is not clear, as I (along with most of en's readership) has no idea what proper Vietnamese diacritics are. Therefore a reference is needed. --Bk0 (Talk) 00:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The thing to note on this image is not the typed text but his signature which is presumably the only thing which he wrote. It is comparatively clear and we can see that there definitely is a mark over the o. It is questionable whether there is anything over the i (neither a dot nor a comma), but since the o is clear I think we should support the mark over the i as well. Edinborgarstefan09:34, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Your absolutely right, it's a cursive o, I used to write my cursive o's like that (I don't write cursive anymore). And also it looks like he just connected the i's dot to the h, so Edinborgarstefan reasoning seems quite flawed. Mark 14:12, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Not that I support this proposal necessarily, but your explanation is not a valid justification. There are thousands (perhaps millions) of instances of non-alphabetic characters in the English Wikipedia. Consider all the mathematic and scientific use of Greek letters, for instance, and the aforementioned European diacritics. --Bk022:54, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is an instance of WP:Point. English usage should prevail; when you have convinced the community of English speakers, WP will change. (For what it's worth, I oppose the impoaition of German and Polish spellings too.) Septentrionalis22:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Support as it is a personal name, and not one of the types with traditional English forms (classical authors, biblical figures, saints and European royals). Tupsharru09:52, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Although I'm generally very much in favour of using original spelling, these Vietnamese characters show up as squares on my PC (IE 5.50, Windows NT), no matter which encoding or font I choose. I'll change my vote if there's something simple you can do about this. Markussep11:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Use English, not a crazy character I can't even see. Via Egnatia
Reluctantly oppose, because the characters (especially the doubly accented "o", probably) cause problems for a significant number of readers. If the accents were harmless, I would support the move. Eugene van der Pijll22:23, 30 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. What jguk said, with a lot of sympathy for Via Egnatia's point, as well. FWIW, I would oppose Lech Wałęsa over Lech Walesa, Reykjavík over Reykjavik, and most any other use of diacritics, as they are almost NEVER the 'most common' name used by native English speakers. Montreal and Quebec, for example, both lost their diacritics for that reason. Niteowlneils05:39, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion
I'm sympathetic to the technical argument. Hopefully these characters will be more generally accessible in a few years and we can start moving Vietnamese pages en masse :) - Haukur Þorgeirsson22:36, 30 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I bloody well hope not. :-/ Mark 10:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
On my computer at home (Windows XP, IE 6) they show up nicely, but not here at work, where I can't change anything. I guess I'm not the only one. It's not just the Vietnamese characters, also polytonic Greek and the Indic scripts (well, I wouldn't want those in article titles). The Cyrillic, Georgian and Armenian alphabets and Chinese, Japanese and Korean show up nicely, on the other hand. Markussep11:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Ho Chi Minh is fine example of what a communist leader should have been. As far as I'm concerned I haven't read a bad word about him, either on genocide, bad policies or corruption. Am I missing something?
Ho Chi Minh is what Mao, Stalin... should have been, maybe communism wouldn't have failed.
There are bad parts about him, but they have been purged from the article. See the disastrous land reforms attemped by North Vietnam. Also, his Viet Minh group actively persecuted the Vietnamese Nationalist Party and other parties in order to gain a monopoly. In 1990, UNESCO was about to celebrate his 100th birthday as a world hero, but faced with intense opposition from overseas Vietnamese so they dropped the matter. The Vietnamese article on him itself is a controlversial topic. DHN21:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I consider him to be a nationalist, not a communist. He spent most of his youth in western countries. Some of his quotes showed he just use communism as a tool to achieve independence for Vietnam ("It was patriotism, not communism, that inspired me." -and- "I only follow one party: the Vietnamese party."), beside, he rarely said anything supportive of communism (especially after the defeat of France in 1954). He is also an admirer of George Washington and worked as an agent for OSS (later became CIA) during world war II. Taking into account his enemy (France, Japan, U.S) and the historical context at that time, the only way to achieve independence and unification of Vietnam is communism. Although Vietnam did get into war with the Khmer Rouge and China (China invaded in support of the Khmer Rouge) in 1979, it is 10 years after the death of Ho Chi Minh, beside, based on unconfirmed sources, when he was alive, he did say something like after the U.S, Vietnam will have to fight China. Of course he made some mistake in his policy but the land reform attempt was rather because of pressure from the Soviet Union and China (there is an article in BBC website about this). I don't know if Vietnam would still be a Socialist country if the U.S supported Vietnam in the war against the French rather than funding more than 80% of the cost of war for the French and even offered them nuclear bomb to bomb Vietnam.--lt2hieu200404:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I fully and entirely support Chủ Tịch Hồ Chí Minh (and no, I am not Vietnamese). He is proof that socialism cannot be justifiably stereotyped. I would rank him as equal in greatness with President George Washington, Mahatma Gandhi, President Julius Nyerere, Premier Vladimir Lenin, Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba, President Nelson Mandela, and Martin Luther King Jr. The land reforms were not only due to pressure from the Soviets, but the number of those affected were much HUGELY exaggerated by the Americans and the Southern dictatorship. Ho Chi Minh was truly a great leader and person. Even the Saigon newspaper conceded upon his death that Vietnam had lost a great politician. Many westerners who met him in person said that he was a very good man, and very polite. Most of the South Vietnamese in the rural areas, thus farther from American lies, supported him and saw him for what he truly was. Upon hearing of his death, whole villages, North and South were filled with people weeping. There is only one bad thing about him which isn't really his fault anyway: he smoked cigarettes. But that is it. He would not drink alcohol. He had true morality. It is a shame that his is defamed by the West. It is a shame that he does not still run Vietnam. If he did, it could be at least as free as America, and perhaps even non-partisan. He wanted to make Vietnam as free as possible, even freer than America. The one thing he could not stand about America was the treatment of African-Americans. He wrote a very powerful article about the lynchings.It is a shame that his is defamed by the West. It is a shame that he does not still run Vietnam. If he did, it could be at least as free as America, and perhaps even non-partisan. It is a shame that such evil people as Stalin Kim Il-Sung, KimJung-Il, etc. have tainted the word 'communism'. They should have been more like him. -- Ionius Mundus02:20, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You actually believe that fucking bullshit? Ho murdered thousands of people that didn't belong to the right "class", to claim otherwise is re-writing history. 65.185.190.24022:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Your comment is un-called for and insulting. Your use of such despicable words, especially in so public a place, only makes your comment worse. I don't listen to lying American propaganda which attempts to re-write history, I look at the actual actions of historical figures. I think that this method should be learned from. --Ionius Mundus23:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually its your comment that was despicable because you are a Communist apologist who is trying to white-wash the deaths of thousands of people.65.185.190.24000:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
ok so he changed his name after he went to china. i can understand how his new name has meaning to what he stands for, but why did he change his surname also? the surname really has no meaning.
I am not positive, but I believe Ho is the surname of a very good Chinese friend of his. Through some circumstance he adopted the surname as part of his new name. By the way Nguyen is a Chinese surname, cognate to Ruan(阮). Both Korean and Vietnamese names are based on the Chinese naming system of an originally Chinese clan name and a given name (which says nothing about these groups' respective ethnic origins). Notably however, Ruan is quite rare in China so people with the surname Nguyen in Vietnam are more likely to be ethnic Vietnamese rather than Chinese who have emigrated to Vietnam and changed their names to the local pronunciation. Prouddemocrat 11:46, 15 March 2006 (EST)
This image was deleted by the OrphanBot app. Anybody know where it came from? What would the proper tag be for an "official" photo of Ho Chi Minh from the government of Vietnam?
Should this article mention Minh's involvement in the United States Office of Strategic Services? Or the way the US supported Minh during World War II because he faught the Japanese but later ignored his appeal for help and opposed his attempts to establish veitnamese independence?
I think it should be mentioned. Can you add to this article? I know about this but I don't have much information on this.
Neutrality and Factual Accuracy
"To most scholars, he was an opportunistic communist who seized power, created an authoritarian government, plunged Vietnam into a war that wrecked the country and established economic policies that left Vietnam poor and backward."
"During this period, the History Channel reports that a team of American paramedics rescued him from a certain death (due to illness and hunger. Famine struck Vietnam and caused the death of about two million Vietnamese, while wheat was exported to France out of charge.)"
I seriously doubt it. There are also no links to show what exactly it's siting. I could just as easily write "According to the History Channel the moon is made of blue cheese and Nixon was a robot built by ancient Egyptian space aliens." RyanEberhart18:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You are certainly correct that the quote at the top is completely biased and not the slightest bit accurate. I have reverted it along with a large amount of other vandalism, including downright nonsense with some vandal messing up the names of the villages in which Uncle Ho grew up. I believe that some bot editing was also disposed of, so that should be re-added. Ionius Mundus01:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Land reform
By the communist party's own admission [2], many of those branded "landlords" (not "counterrevolutionaries") and publicly killed were innocent farmers. Many others were also killed in the purge that followed the disastrous reforms. DHN22:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Citation needed
This quotation was largely propaganda [citation needed] to influence western public opinion [citation needed] since Ho's Stalinist regime [citation needed] allowed no more freedom than the Communist Soviet Union did.
None of that paragraph is cited, should it be removed? As for that specific sentence plucked out, it is self-evident that North Vietnam was not a democracy and did not in reality embrace any of the principles in the quote. Since it is not true, it is thus propaganda and has been cited by many as the "evidence" that Ho was some sort of democrat. CJK23:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are allegations that he was the one who notified the French of Phan Boi Chau's whereabouts in Shanghai for a reward amount, allowing him to be arrested. DHN20:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that there are allegations is not true? I can cite at least one source that made this allegation: Mạc Định Hoàng Văn Chí, Từ Thực Dân Đến Cộng Sản (From colonialism to communism), nxb Chân Trời Mới, Sài Gòn, 1964. DHN00:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Might it be mentioned that besides the killings, the Land Reform did help a large amount of poor peasants to at least have some land, which is critically important to their agricultural career? And why is it always about Ho Chi Minh himself: he started the Reform, but who carried it out in detail? His cadres and his supporters! Can he sit in his chair and control all the communists in Vietnam? To my knowledge, the un-educated communists are often extremeist, so I think the mass killing was due to the unability of Ho Chi Minh and his cadres to control the Reform. I'm not a communist but I respect Ho Chi Minh as the best communist leader ever since (I'm not saying he's the best leader but the best communist leader, apart from other more cruel dictators).Hawkie17:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A little thing to mention, actually to make it clear:
Nguyen Sinh Cung is his birth name, considering his father's name Nguyen Sinh Sac (similar surname I guess). Nguyen Tat Thanh is the name he received in a traditional Confucian fashion promoting a boy to an adult. Nguyen Ai Quoc is the name he used whilst oversea. Ly Thuy and Ho Quang are the names he used whilst staying in China (I'm not too sure about this), can anyone make it right?
![[1]](https:/upwiki/wikipedia/en/2/20/HoChiMinhTelegramToTruman1946.png){kind=link}
