Talk:Timothy Leary

Information missing

This article is overwhelmingly concerned with Leary's private life and association with drug-taking. He also did separate and important work in psychological theory (theory of personality etc.) that ought to be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.56.74.229 (talk) 02:55, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

External links

I'm not sure I understand or agree with the criteria used to delete all these external links, especially since none was provided. I think arbitrarily deleting 12 links added by other editors requires at least some discussion. Some of them seem to me to be as valid as some of what's left. On the other hand, I think a section with a different name might be more appropriate than just "external links". That seems to have become a repository for just about anything related to Leary. I will create an Interviews section for some of these links, and think about other possibilities. Maybe "Websites devoted to Timothy Leary". In the meantime, as a work resource, here are the deleted links:

• A page devoted to Timothy Leary & LSD with video of Reverend Lakko recalling Timothy Leary's guidance during the Marsh Chapel Experiment, an interaction with Marshall McLuhan, and other Leary links
• I Have America Surrounded - the Life of Timothy Leary - website for a Timothy Leary biography.
• An interpretation of Timothy Leary -- Reviews Timothy Leary: A Biography, discusses Leary and Aleister Crowley. J. L. Flatley
• Timothy Leary - Rotten Library article.
• "How to Operate Your Brain" Leary's guided meditation with video and music
• TFYQA.com - Think For Yourself; Question Authority: Timothy Leary ideals
• High Blotter Mark - Zero Sum Mind article. (Seems to be a dead link)
• Listen online: Think For Yourself - (Seems to be a dead link)
• Dr. Timothy Leary, photographs, River City Reunion, 1987, Lawrence, KS
• Hofmann's Potion DVD Documentary about the Early Years of LSD featuring Albert Hofmann & Timothy Leary

Some will, of course, remain deleted. Rosencomet (talk) 22:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Dismissal

I changed the wording so it is not contradictory. If the stated & cited reason was failure to fulfill his obligations as a faculty member, to advance another reason makes little sense. However, to theorize that an additional factor may have influenced the decision, i.e. to say either that he would not have been dealt with as harshly if he had not also been in disfavor due to his unpopular LSD activities, or that his "failure to complete his lecture schedule" was just an excuse to dismiss him, is not contradictory (though, as sheer conjecture, it still may not belong in this article at all). Rosencomet (talk) 18:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Robert Greenfield's biography has been criticized by many of Leary's colleagues as derogatory and inaccurate. Furthermore, the citation here isn't even from his biography, but from a book review of it. Even further, the quote doesn't match the citation; the quote reads "Chaotic tripping parties ensued, involving students, under "spiritual" or "philosophical" pretexts. In 1963, Harvard — famous for protecting its own — finally choked on the negative publicity and summarily dismissed Leary and Alpert." Not only is there no mention of allegations that Leary and Alpert gave drugs to undergraduates, but it mocks the notion that the Millbrook group used psychedelics for spiritual and/or philosophical purposes, calling these "pretexts". Finally, this claim as to the reason Leary was dismissed contradicts both Andrew Weil's statements and those of the president of Harvard. I believe it violates the guidelines for Wikipedia biographies, and is improperly cited. Simply stating that his dismissal was "after" some allegations by unknown and unquoted persons is not encyclopedic, especially when we have the real reason for dismissal from two reliable sources. I am deleting the line. Rosencomet (talk) 14:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I am also deleting the following line "Around this time, their Harvard colleagues grew uneasy about their research, and about the rumors and complaints (some by parents of students) that had reached the university administration about Leary and Alpert's alleged distribution of hallucinogens to their students." This line has had a citation needed tag since February of 2007, and is certainly the kind of claim that should not be in a biography without proper citation. Rosencomet (talk) 15:07, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm also deleting the following line that has been unsourced since April of 2007. If someone can find a citation that isn't a quote of this very Wikipedia article, please return it to the article with the citation. " He was frequently spotted at raves with Psychic TV and alternative rock concerts (Ministry), including a memorable mosh pit experience at an early Smashing Pumpkins concert."

I believe that eliminates all outstanding citation requests, so I am deleting the tag requiring them. The article has 32 references. Rosencomet (talk) 15:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Psychedelic experiments and experiences section

"... when Ken Kesey's Merry Pranksters visited the residence, the Pranksters did not even see Leary, who was engaged in a three-day trip."

In most articles, this sentence would only have one meaning. For an article on Timothy Leary, however, the sentence is ambiguous. I don't whether he was travelling or conducting an experiment on himself. 58.106.43.11 (talk) 01:37, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, most documentaries state that he was recovering from a heavy trip, and refusing to come down from his room to greet them... --Torsrthidesen (talk) 01:05, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

According with Timothy Leary's auto-biography (Flashbacks) published in 1983, in the second part of the book, at chapter 24 (Pranksters Come to Millbrook) pages 204/205 we have two versions of the story. Timothy Leary there explains that the first version is Tom Wolfe's version originally published in 1968 on the book "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" which reports: "Where was Leary? Everyone was waiting for the great meeting of Leary and Kesey ... Well, word came down that Leary was upstairs in the mansion engaged in a very serious experiment, a three-day trip, and could not be disturbed"

The second version of the story is Timothy Leary's version which reports: "I had been spending a few days in New York with Nanette (nickname for Nena von Schlebrügge, Leary's third wife). In Grand Central Station, waiting for the return train, I came down with a shivering sweaty flu. Around midnight Dick (nickname for Richard Alpert, later Ram Dass) met me at the Poughkeepsie station full of the news. Ken Kesey and his fabled day-glo bus had arrived unanounced"

According with Timothy Leary's version, him and Ken Kesey didn't meet that night because he felt very ill and went straight to bed. Timothy Leary's version continues by saying that the very next day, him and Ken Kesey with some of the Pranksters met in his personal office at the mansion in Millbrook and there they promised each other to stay in touch as allies.

During an interview in the late 90s, Ken Kesey was asked about the Pranksters' arrival in Millbrook and this controversial meeting with Leary. Kesey's answer was fully supporting Tom Wolfe's version and he said also that him and the Pranksters ultimately went away from the mansion without having met Leary at all. italinux (talk) 20:05, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

There is photographic evidence of Timothy Leary sitting inside the merry prankster's bus further with Neal Cassady disproving Tom Wolfe's version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 07:29, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Problem with Dates

If he was fired from Harvard in 1963 (...lecturer in psychology at Harvard University (1959–1963). He was fired from Harvard for failing to conduct his scheduled class...) how did he return to Harvard in fall of 1965? Was he hired back? No info is given. Anyone got any sources? Need to plug this hole. Did Harvard forgive him or did he beg them to take him back? Meishern (talk) 23:21, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

According with Timothy Leary's auto-biography (Flashbacks) published in 1983, he didn't mention anything about Harvard during fall of 1965.
By fall 1965 he was already at the mansion in Millbrook, New York and was busy giving lectures and doing shows with some of his fellow companions all along the East coast, USA.
The aim of these shows was to reproduce psychedelic experiences and they used wording, lights, colours, strobe and some sort of kaleidoscope.
By the end of fall 1965 Millbrook mansion was ultimately closed down and Timothy Leary with his family travelled south towards Mexico where they got busted for $10 weed (2 joints). italinux (talk) 20:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

One of Timothy Leary's first jobs

I read an article in Rolling Stone a few years ago about Tim Leary and was surprised to see that he was credited for working in a psychologist's office in my hometown, Butler, Pa as one of his first jobs. Unfortunately, that was all it really said and I haven't been able to gather any infrormation on it. It would be very interesting for me to learn more about this, and perhaps not coincidentally, the town has a bit of a hippie subculture following in parts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.144.2.26 (talk) 15:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Concord prison experiment

An anon recently deleted some unsourced text, and I'm adding it here for archival purposes. Text follows: Viriditas (talk) 05:18, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

.The results of this experiment were later largely contested by a follow-up study, citing several problems, including time differences monitoring the study group versus the control group, and other methodology factors, including the difference between subjects re-incarcerated for parole violations versus those imprisoned for new crimes. The study that contested Leary's research concluded that only a statistically slight improvement could be shown by using psilocybin (as opposed to the significant improvement Leary reported).

There actually is a source for that in the article - I thought it was very bizarre to read about the positive results of this experiment, click on the source for it, and find that the source was a follow-up study that found the original experiment's reported findings to be incorrect. I'm going to put that text back in. Weremorl (talk) 05:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

On Progeny...

In the latter passages of this biography, there is mention of a son, Zachary. However, the article only details the birth of a daughter Susan and son Jack (born in 1947 & 1949, respectively) throughout the entire course of his life. Was this Zachary an hallucination of himself and those around him or did we just forget to mention when and under what circumstances he came into being?
--K10wnsta (talk) 05:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Tim had 3 children: Susan (born 1947), Jack (born 1949) and Zachary (born 1973) and adopted by Tim and his last wife Barbara. italinux (talk) 20:05, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Various

Leary proclaimed the idea of a licence for drugs like for driving. Somewhere on this record: http://www.amazon.com/Turn-Tune-Drop-Timothy-Leary/dp/B0028R1M00/ref=sr_1_cc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1285358211&sr=1-2-catcorr

At the end of the "Influence" section

I have removed the explanation of "Turn on, tune in, drop out," as it is contrary to Leary's own explanation in "Start Your Own Religion"

50.53.144.108 (talk) 23:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC

Changed the Huston Smith section

It was written that Smith only had one psychedelic experience. In doors of perception, Smith states he used it on several occasions as an undergraduate in a "ritual" like way, and took peyote as a "duty" in a native American ceremony. So I changed the text accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.51.138 (talk) 06:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Surfing the Conscious Nets

I stumbled across this graphic novel and, frankly, I don't know what to make of it. It feels like a small pet project by Leary and some friends. It's cover reads "Timothy Leary Surfing the Conscious Nets: a graphic novel by Huck Getty Mellon von Schlebrugge". Within, the credits read "Inter-text: Timothy Leary" (the prefix "inter-" is used throughout the credits, perhaps as a play on "internet", which is a large role in the book). Huck Gutty is an obvious pseudonym, but appears to be a pseudonym for a character in the story (who is black and, presumably, not Leary). Huck Getty is meant to be "Nicotine" Jim Bauer, who is credited in the book as "Good Attitudes: Jim Bauer", which is a half step above "we would like to thank". From what I gather, the letters which make up the book were written by Jim Bauer (Huck Getty), but edited and assembled by Leary. The cover by line credits Huck Getty, but the internal credits list text by Timothy Leary. It's such a small circulation too, I've about given up trying to figure out what this book is meant to be. Any thoughts? Scoundr3l (talk) 23:17, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are asking. Like you've already observed, the content is mostly taken from letters written by Jim Bauer. The book was published by Last Gasp and is still available.[1] Viriditas (talk) 00:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

334 watchers but references in terrible shape?

This page has a large number of watcher (334 at the moment) but the references are in terrible shape. I just fixed a bunch of the most egregious problems but there's a lot of cleanup work still needed. If you like this article enough to watch it, it could use some more love. Jason Quinn (talk) 19:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Bias

The article at current time reads "Though obtaining useful data (Leary and his associate Richard Alpert were fired)". "LSD-data", useful? Clear bias by a proponent of drugs. Banned drugs, for good reasons. These people are really about idolatry, that is the "data" people should see. Obviously Leary thought he had a totem, that was popular, seen in the phrases and lingo he uses. That is all they are about. Also known by various derogatory terms, later also associated with "yuppies", when the naive associations to peace faded. Forbidden in monotheism ;)

You're quite right. Go ahead and fix the article. ImprovingWiki (talk) 02:16, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually, the editor is quite wrong. The current article attests to the useful data, such as the Concord Prison and Marsh Chapel experiments as only two examples. The conclusions of these and other studies (psychedelics can help people) have been supported in recent experiments. Viriditas (talk) 04:17, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Header image suggestion

Could someone consider putting a more vibrant, colorful, and expressive picture of Timothy instead of the current one on the header? It's so bland and depressing, and he was such a very outgoing and warm man--he should at least be viewed and remembered by that. Aucirlo (talk) 10:53, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Timothy Leary. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150804024539/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV7GSff4fIA&hl=en&fs=1&amp to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV7GSff4fIA

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers. —^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 19:18, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Bringing it over here. Philosopher?

So, there has been a discussion going-on @ NPOV.Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Timothy Leary This began after one IP editor added Leary to category, "Philosophers". I am another IP--(and my IP has been dynamic/changing), who noticed that the category add was rv, so I took a look, and found what I thought was a good ref., so I added it. (the bibliography ref in the lede.)...................anyhow, I'm bringing the question back here where it should have been. And adding this, Contemporary philosophy#Outside the Profession . With the questions, should Dr. Leary be in the category? And/or should he be added to the "outsider"-list? In the discussion at NPOV, there are links and references to various reliable source mentions of Leary being, doing, and calling himself a Philosopher, but there is an editor of this page who wants to maintain some professional peer-group associations as the "test"--of who can be labeled as a philosopher here in Wikipedia. At this point, it does appear that Dr. Leary does not quite fit into the philosopher category, so I'm wondering what everyone else thinks? Keeping him in the cat. could open the door for others who may actually be better categorized as "outsiders", in the philosopher's article(s). 2601:80:4003:7416:5430:24E8:873B:31D9 (talk) 23:33, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

In the absence of sufficient reliable sources, there is no basis to describe Leary as a philosopher. The lead needs to be reverted to before the POV-pushing done by the IP editors. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:35, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

OK-but you know we have RS by Wikipedia standards. What you are asking goes beyond that. 2601:80:4003:7416:5430:24E8:873B:31D9 (talk) 23:45, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

WP:NPOV: "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Have you shown that the idea that Leary is a philosopher is a significant view in reliable sources? No. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:47, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

My reading of the discussion at NPOV was that reputable sources were quickly offered to support describing Leary as a philosopher. Maybe you don't hear them. Frankly, I was surprised to see the question arise at all, having lived through the 60s. Whether you agreed with him or respected him or not, my personal recollection is that of course people thought he was a philosopher. It was the 60s. :) I think you should give this one up and move on. Msnicki (talk) 00:29, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

So, FKC, you have cited NPOV. But the sticking-point for you seems to be more of the fact that Dr. Leary was not degreed as one, recognized as one by "legit"-Philosophers-mainly? Or contemporary practitioners of the applied science of Philosophy of his time or after? And/or that he did not base his work in what he called philosophy in the acknowledged philosophers of the past, according-to the accepted standards for study and discourse in the highly specialized field? If-so I SEE YOUR POINTS. But trying to make that fit NPOV somehow, based-on your interpretation of WP:NPOV, is not doing it for me. For some reason, I am liking this to a discussion about whether or not Bill Nye the Science Guy is/was a RS, or acceptable inclusion as a RS on climate change topics in WP, and more importantly, could he be included in a group of Climate Change Scientists. I really do not know how that ended, or what WP policies were cited, but NPOV is too vague to use as a policy example in either case.2601:80:4003:7416:5430:24E8:873B:31D9 (talk) 01:09, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Msnicki, it is not relevant what unnamed "people" thought in the 1960s, and I think you should know that. While someone did suggest at WP:NPOVN that at least one reliable source identified Leary as a philosopher, that same person also noted that one reliable source was not enough by itself. The fact remains that no one has shown that the idea that Leary was a philosopher is a significant view in reliable sources. That being the case, the reference to Leary as a philosopher needs to be removed from the lead, as it is misinformation and potentially damages Wikipedia's reputation as a serious work of reference. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 20:55, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

My mention of my surprise was not offered as evidence of notability but rather at face value, that, no surprise, others quickly provided reliable sources in the discussion at NPOV indicating that Leary was indeed regarded as a philosopher. He may not have been a good one, he may not have made any money at it, it's possible that only the most drug-addled thought he made any sense at all. But the sources do say he was philosopher. You sought a consensus at NPOV and it didn't support you and you don't seem to have a new argument here. You can't keep forum-shopping until you get the answer you want. Consequently, I'm going to revert your latest edit in a moment. Msnicki (talk) 01:38, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

The suggestion that Leary was a philosopher can be read in two ways: (a) he thought a lot and/or made insightful commentary; or (b) he held an academic position as a philosopher and contributed to recognized philosophical journals. The lead of the article currently includes "Occupation: Psychologist, Writer, Philosopher" which is patent nonsense as no source supports the (b) interpretation. If (a) applies, the word is meaningless as lots of people think a lot. If a source with an in-depth analysis of Leary describes him as a "philosopher", and if there were any encyclopedic benefit to including such a meaningless term, the body of the article might include an attributed opinion, however there must be no mention in the infobox unless someone can show Leary was employed as a philosopher. Johnuniq (talk) 23:31, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Isn't there a third option, that reliable sources say he was philosopher and that settles it? Here at WP, the goal is verifiability, not truth. If you disagree, maybe you should write your own book claiming he wasn't really a philosopher, get it published by a reputable house, then we can have a section titled "Philosopher controversy". For now, the published sources and the consensus sought and obtained at NPOV seem pretty compelling to me. Msnicki (talk) 01:38, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

It is up to you to show that Leary being a philosopher is a significant view in reliable sources, per WP:NPOV. That has not been demonstrated. Discussion at WP:NPOVN has mostly favored leaving out the "philosopher" label, on the grounds that there is so far not enough evidence to show that it is an important view in reliable sources. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:02, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

I just re-read the NPOV discussion. A source doesn't get a lot more reliable than the LA Times and while no thought he was a new Aristotle, I think there was a consistent, if grudging admission that he was considered a philosopher. Yes, a lot of the discussion argued against considering him a philosopher but that's only because virtually all of that was YOU, repeating yourself over and over. Nobody else was anywhere near as insistent and NO ONE else worried that reporting something even the LA Times remarked on would damage WP's reputation. Wow. I think you just thought you won. It sure didn't look like it to me. I was about to revert to you again but got beat to it. Msnicki (talk) 02:22, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Here is the situation:

• From Philosopher: "A philosopher is any intellectual who has made contributions in one or more current fields of philosophy, such as aesthetics, ethics, epistemology, logic, metaphysics, social theory, and political philosophy." (definition added by SPECIFICO)
• "Activist philosopher" is a made-up term to highlight the fact that it is not referring to the profession of philosophy.
• The LA Times story is titled "COMEDY REVIEW : Timothy Leary Does His Stand-Up Philosophy Show on Sunset Strip" and the only mention of the term in the article is "Leary did his stand-up philosopher act...".
• A throw-away IP is willing to edit war to promote the idea that Leary's occupation included "philosopher".
• The philosophy game is hilarious, but sprinkling links in articles should not be encouraged.

Would editors please read the LA Times article as it was written—it is a review of a comedy act, not a biographical statement regarding Leary. The mentions of "philosopher" are not a serious attempt at assessing Leary's credentials. We will have to get the article semi-protected or wait until the IP finds another horse to beat. Johnuniq (talk) 03:22, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Msnicki, you should perhaps read the discussion at WP:NPOVN again. The IP editors supported calling Leary a philosopher. Here are the views expressed by the other users who commented, besides myself: "No evidence has been provided that he AUTHORED and TAUGHT, and LECTURED philosophy. The source provided says he was an "activist philosopher," whatever that is. So I would take it out" (The Four Deuces); "Doing a google search (yes, not exhaustive) clearly shows that if the word "philosopher" is used with Leary's name, its a self-ascribed label that he called himself and not a professor that we could call him as such. The LA Times article above, for example, shows how he used "Stand-up Philosopher" to describe a stage act. He had a specific philosophy, but that's not same as being a philosopher by profession" (Masem); there are a few legit sources out there that do describe Leary as a philosopher (among other things). The International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, for example, describes him as "a psychologist, scientist, and philosopher who made substantive contributions to interpersonal theory and methodology and also gained notoriety for his endorsement of and research on hallucinogens." So the IP isn't completely off-base, although I'm skeptical that there are enough sources like this out there to justify using the "philosopher" label (Fyddlestix); "we need surely to be quite strict and consistent about what we mean when we describe someone as a "philosopher". The term is often used quite loosely in the real world for anyone who has opinions or theories about life and the wider world, as well as in a more formal academic or historical sense, and it should be latter that we focus on. Sources that may well be "reliable" in the broadest sense can often be found that say X or Y is a "philosopher", but we shouldn't blindly follow one or two randomly selected ones, especially when there's no guarantee they mean the same thing as others. This isn't a matter of sourcing per se but, as noted, a matter of what sources and what is meant by the term" (N-HH). In other words, there is a consensus against applying the philosopher label at this time. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:09, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Timothy Leary refered to himself as a performing philosopher, the press called him a stand up philosopher because he often used comedy to grab people's attention. FKC you are like a broken record, making the same point over and over again. Maybe the reason Timothy Leary hasn't been ackowlaged by other philosophers is due to his controversial beliefs in the same way Terrence McKennas's stoned ape theory was rejected by anthropologists without even having been investigated. My point is philosophy is not a union, someone should not have to be acknowlaged by other philosophers to actually be one. Also there are many sources that credit Timothy Leary as a philosopher, but he really is on the outside of mainstream philosophy. What are you'r thoughts on Aldous Huxley, do you not think he should be credited as a philosopher? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 07:02, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

You should read WP:NOTFORUM. Wikipedia talk pages are not there for discussing our personal opinions and beliefs about various subjects; they are there so users can discuss how to improve articles. Actually, what the hell, go ahead and keep violating the policies, and get yourself blocked. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:53, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

So your obviously the kind of person who thinks your opinion is the only one that matters. You contradict everything you say with your own hypocrisy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 08:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

No, I don't think that only my opinion matters. I think that Wikipedia is a collaborative project in which users need to consider each other's opinions. I've tried to explain both that, under WP:NPOV, you need to show that the view that Timothy Leary is a philosopher is a significant view in reliable sources (which means that just one source is not enough), and also that there is general disagreement with you at WP:NPOVN, but you aren't listening, and the personal abuse you're directing against me makes it nearly pointless to continue to try to discuss things with you. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 09:00, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

The bottom line is that the cited source is reliable and it doesn't matter whether you agree or not, you do not have the power to overule other editors and I have not broken any of wikipedia's policys. I think Msnicki said all there was to be said and I am done with this debate. Obviously you cant even handle debate if you consider criticism to be personal abuse. I have better things to do with my time, goodbye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 09:24, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

You violated WP:NPA by describing me as "YOU HYPOCRITE". You might be blocked for that; you'll definitely be blocked if you keep it up. Personal attacks of that nature are not considered an acceptable form of "criticism" here. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 09:27, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Comment: There are multiple reliable sources referring to Leary as a "philosopher". A quick Googling just gave me this book (Malice in Wonderland: The Bush Junta from 2000-present by D. L. Joy) and a Time magazine article from 1996 calling him "a psychedelic philosopher". -- Irn (talk) 10:47, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

FKC--there are more than one IP in this discussion, you keep saying, "the IP". I am one-of the IPS, and again, mine is dynamic and keeps changing, but if someone really wanted to try, they are similar-(my IPs). You have been refuting what are normally considered reliable sources, repeatedly. That is not how WP is supposed to work. Also-mentioning gaming WP w/philosophy, this really has nothing to do with that, and why should Leary's article be stunted just to "punish" the philosophy game problem? What I'd really like to know, and really I don't think that it is too relevant to the problem one way or the other, but maybe just to help you, or me, or us, is "What would it take for you to agree that Dr. Leary was a philosopher?", and since you repeatedly say that he was not acknowledged by the field, but you conceded that "some" philosophers may have included Leary......so, do you have a list of American Philosophers, from Leary's time, and after, who ARE philosophers in your opinion? IMO-you are the one using too much WP:SYNTH to exclude Leary as a philosopher. Your "test"--is not as far as I can tell something or policy that we can use to judge this. Your persistent citing of NPOV, actually works against your point from the way that I look at it, where many have named Leary as a philosopher, so by my understanding of what you specifically cited for NPOV, it sticks. But I guess my most important question to you is who are these philosophers that are acceptable to you and maybe we can help each other that way.2601:80:4003:7416:8C4C:77AF:846C:E4CF (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

If someone wants to show that Leary was a philosopher then they should provide high-quality sources showing that Leary was a philosopher, such as respected works of reference dealing specifically with philosophy. That's a crucial point that some users here seem to have lost sight of. As noted on WP:NPOVN, the term "philosopher" can mean different things, and it is disingenuous to suggest that Leary should be labelled a "philosopher", without qualification, simply because some writer at Time magazine (not a source noted for being a high-quality reference on philosophy) labelled him a "psychedelic philosopher." The book by D. L. Joy is also not a work specifically concerned with philosophy, and such not a high-quality source for this purpose either. Wikipedia looses its credibility as a reference if people can't grasp such basic points. This has nothing to do with "refuting what are normally considered reliable sources", and everything to do with employing good judgment in editing. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 20:40, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree with johnuniq, who quoted

*From Philosopher: "A philosopher is any intellectual who has made contributions in one or more current fields of philosophy, such as aesthetics, ethics, epistemology, logic, metaphysics, social theory, and political philosophy." (definition added by SPECIFICO)

Self-described, or activist, or performing philosopher is OK. Philosophy is an accredited profession, like medicine, or mathematics. To call Leary a 'philosopher' is demeaning and derogatory to philosophy. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 14:54, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I couldnt disagree with you more. Like Leary, Aldous Huxley never recieved a paycheck for his contribution to philosophy, it would be absurd to argue that he wasnt a philosopher just because he was never employed as one. There is no distinction between someone who practices philosophy and someone who performs it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 17:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Totally agree with #766B's disagreement It is not purely accredited, and it is too narrow an assessment to compare it to say, medicine. A closer comparison would be- say- historian, whiich while being composed mostly of paid academics, can also be the preserve of gifted amateurs. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 17:40, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, Fortuna, you're not understanding what was said. I am quoting the Wikipedia definition of philosopher!

Leary didn't even qualify as a quack, since he didn't practice philosophy to any standard. Your definition is unsound. According to you, a gifted 3-year-old could be a philosopher. What makes philosophy philosophy is that it is an academic discipline, just like history. Anything does not go as philosophy. Please re-examine your position. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 20:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

What in world do you suppose anyone does to "practice" philosophy? He wrote books about his philosophy, that satisfies me. Consequently, I've rolled back the changes removing this. Msnicki (talk) 21:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Anyone can write books about something they call their philosophy. That does not determine who qualifies as a philosopher on Wikipedia. (I've explained that we need high-quality sources calling Leary a philosopher, ideally works of reference dealing with philosophy). Looking at the article's recent revision history, it seems that you have been reverting multiple other editors over this issue; that is something you definitely should not be doing. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 21:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

It is ridiculous how long this debate has been going on. This page needs to be permanently blocked from editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 21:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Msnicki,

"Practice to any standard": Writing books about his philosophy absolutely does not qualify him as a philosopher. Quoting Einstein does not make him a theoretical physicist. Balancing his checkbook does not make him an accountant. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 21:54, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Blue Mist. What is supposed to be listed in the lead sentence and infobox is the subject's occupations'. Professional occupations. If they do not have the professional qualifications for the occupation, then it was not their occupation but rather an avocation. This can be discussed elsewhere in the article, but it is misleading to put avocations into the lead sentence and infobox as if they were professionally qualified occupations. Skyerise (talk) 22:12, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

What is this business about there being some kind of standard for being a philosopher? That's obviously a completely made-up condition, just like the comparisons made to licensed occupations like medicine. Notice the use of the word, "any" in the definition given in our own article on Philosopher, which reports that A philosopher is any intellectual who has made contributions in one or more current fields of philosophy, such as aesthetics, ethics, epistemology, logic, metaphysics, social theory, and political philosophy. ... More broadly, a philosopher may also be one who worked in the humanities or other sciences which have since split from philosophy proper over the centuries, such as the arts, history, economics, sociology, psychology, linguistics, anthropology, theology, and politics.

All it takes is a quick Google search to find that Leary wrote or edited a whole series of books that defy description as anything except philosophy, including Your Brain Is God, Neuropolitique, Foucault and Philosophy, The Psychedelic Experience: A Manual Based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead and, of course, Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out. If you're questioning whether these are philosophy books, please look at them and then tell what you think they are instead.

Yes, many people thought Leary was crazy. Nixon thought he was "the most dangerous man in America". But except some possible distaste over his views on drugs, I'm struggling to know how anyone argues he wasn't a philosopher except by silly made-up tests, like whether he ever held a government-issued license declaring he was "registered professional philosopher" or held a paying job where his title was "staff philosopher". Msnicki (talk) 01:25, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

This whole debate is pointless considering philosophy really isnt much of an occupation anyway. I doubt Aristotle, Plato, Socrates were ever paid for their ideas. As for Leary's credentials he did have a doctorate degree of philosophy from the university of berkeley, if that alone is not enough to qualify him as a philosopher im not sure what is. Also I really dont think it matters what tricky dick or the so called "silent majority" thought about him or his views. Psychedelics are probably the most misunderstood drugs to have ever existed, Leary was far from being crazy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 01:43, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

It would not satisfy me. I think it belongs there. Msnicki (talk) 02:13, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I know you're new, so I'm sure you're not aware of this, but editing your remarks after they've been replied to is generally discouraged because it can make the responses look nonsensical. Above, I was responding to your question, would it satisfy everyone if "philosopher" was removed from the list for Leary. Now that you've removed the question, my answer doesn't make much sense anymore. Msnicki (talk) 19:23, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Duly noted, I will try not to make that mistake again. The reason I removed my question is because I realized it was unnecessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 19:51, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

If you'd like to revise a comment after it's already been replied to, strike the part you're deleting with <s>...</s> tags and insert the new text with <ins>...</ins> tags. Text that's been struck looks like this and text that's been added looks like this. Msnicki (talk) 01:15, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• From the sources cited here, and a brief googling, Reliable independant sources describe him as a philosopher. Arguing that they are wrong and pointing to definitions of philosopher or that he wasnt credentialled (*really* a silly argument if you look at the history of philosophy) is OR. RS call him it, so wikipedia can describe him as one. If you want to exclude that description, you need a better argument than 'Well he isnt!' Move on.Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:43, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Did anybody here actually LOOK at those sources, or read this Wikipedia article in detail? Those sources are NOT Wikipedia:RS, and they show that he was a writer and a psychologist, but NOT that he was a "philosopher" or a "mathematician" or a "psychiatrist" or a "biochemist" or a neuro-surgeon".

BlueMist (talk) 14:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about his books. If you don't think they're books on philosophy, what do you think they are? Inquiring minds want to know. Msnicki (talk) 15:17, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Which one? BlueMist (talk) 16:02, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Take your pick. I listed several. Msnicki (talk) 16:57, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Regarding RSs calling Leary a philosopher, I gave you these two above, and now here are some more: philosopher-psychologist from The Age, psychedelic philosopher from the Los Angeles Times, social philosopher by the LA Times again, and psychedelic philosopher from New York Daily News. -- Irn (talk) 16:40, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

psychedelic philosopher sounds fair enough for me. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 17:47, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I have no objection to Leary being called a "psychedelic philosopher" if the statement is properly attributed. Calling Leary a "philosopher" without qualification has always been the problem. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:54, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Removal of cited information

IP 2605:a000:1200:406f:bdc2:282a:6c52:766b is edit warring to remove properly cited information, as visible here where it reverts me and here where it reverts another user. As this is unacceptable behavior, I have had to request that the article be protected. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:34, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Wow, such incredible hypocrisy. FreeKnowlageCreater is edit warring to remove properly cited information, visible at Timothy Leary: Revision History. Why not try practicing what you preach? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 06:20, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

You should try reading WP:CIVIL. Persistent incivility can get you blocked. As to content issues, the situations are of course not the same: you are removing properly cited information for no valid reason, I am removing claims that can be found in sources but still need to be removed per WP:NPOV, since they give undue weight to the opinion of a very small minority - that Timothy Leary is a philosopher. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:58, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

You did the exact same thing I did YOU HYPOCRITE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 08:24, 28 March 2016 (UTC) You cannot overule everybody on wikipedia, you are the only one who has a problem with the cited source crediting Timothy Leary as a philosopher. You stand alone, and nobody is listening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 08:32, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

"YOU HYPOCRITE" - really? That's a direct and blatant personal attack and under WP:NPA, you deserve to be blocked. Not much more for me to say under these circumstances. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 08:50, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

The definition of hypocrisy is "the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense" which is exactly what you have done, edit-warring in exactly the way you criticize. Further, it's a description of your behavior, not of you personally -- he hasn't called you an idiot, for example, which would be personal -- and it's completely on target. This is how you've behaved. I think you should take the criticism to heart and think about you could modify your behavior to be more collegial. Msnicki (talk) 23:14, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

WP:TPYES: "Comment on content, not on the contributor: Keep the discussions focused upon the topic of the talk page, rather than on the personalities of the editors contributing to the talk page." You should not need reminding of this. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 21:23, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

It's fair to comment on behavior, just as you did when you went WP:ANI to complain about others' behavior (which, of course, turned out to be no different than yours.) But two caveats, it has to be true and it can only be about behavior, not a judgment of the person. I'm satisfied I did that, but you're welcome to take me to WP:ANI as well if you're still not happy. Msnicki (talk)

Just for the record, what I did was delete cited text claiming Timothy Leary was fired from harvard due to the controversy surrounding his psilocybin expiriments and the popularity of psychedelics on campus. This a common misconception as Richard Alpert was the only one who was fired and Timothy Leary quit and lied about being fired because he thought it would add to his rebel image. WikiPedant informed me that if I was going to make this claim I would have to find a new substantive citation to support it, which I am unable to do. This alone does not constitute edit warring for which FKC accused me of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:1200:406F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 22:43, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

If you are admittedly unable to find a source supporting your version of events, then one can reasonably ask that you not continue to try to add it to the article. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 20:27, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I haven't, I only reverted WikiPedant one time after I forgot to explain my changes to the article. I don't need you to tell me this. 2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 21:18, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 1 April 2016

Please add the following citations to the description of Leary as a philosopher in the first paragraph: Msnicki (talk) 16:54, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

References

 Administrator note I'd rather not make any changes to this protected article without consensus from other editors, although I recognise that adding additional sources is unlikely to be controversial. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:00, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

By dragging the matter through 4 different drama boards over this simple content question, FreeKnowledgeCreator has delivered us to bureaucratic hell. It is time to unprotect the page, requested here and here. Msnicki (talk) 19:48, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Of those citations, #4 and #5 clearly do not describe Leary as a philosopher, and it would be improper to add them. If you are really convinced that Leary should be described as a philosopher, then at the very least you need sources that directly and unambiguously describe him as such, not sources that vaguely assert, without further elaboration, that Leary is associated with a "sort of LSD philosophy". I'm not surprised at all that some sources describe Leary as a philosopher, or that none of the sources you provide are high-quality works of reference specifically about philosophy. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 20:25, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Sources #4 and #5 say he explored philosophy and even "founded" one but you don't think that supports a claim he was philosopher? So that only leaves 4 new sources (3 hardcover books and a newspaper) that clearly do call him a philosopher and that's just not enough because they aren't sufficiently high quality?

It sounds like your objection is that you don't think he was any good as a philosopher, not a serious one, anyway, and that you don't think he had any impact a philosopher. Okay, he's no Kant, who I know you like, but have you looked at Leary's Google scholar citation count? The psychedelic experience, clearly a work of philosophy, got 295 citations alone. In the academic world, especially in a slow-moving field like philosophy, as opposed to something like engineering, where I teach, that's an impressive number. That alone might have gotten him tenure a lot of places if his philosophy hadn't involved drugs.

I'm coming to believe there's just nothing you would accept. But consensus doesn't mean unanimity. It is time to move on. It shouldn't be that big a deal to admit that, yes, among other things, he was a philosopher, however good or bad. Msnicki (talk) 21:37, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

No, sources #4 and #5 do not say that Leary "explored philosophy". Source #4 says that Leary "explored the cultural and philosophical implications of psychedelic drugs" and source #5 says that "he founded a sort of LSD philosophy", and this does not support the claim that Leary was a philosopher. Per WP:NOR, "To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented." By using these sources to try to claim that Leary was a philosopher you are, clearly, going beyond what they actually state. Note that WP:RS states that, "Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people." The key part of that is "authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject". What authors regarded as authoritative in relation to philosophy have stated that Leary was a philosopher?

WP:RS also states "The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication." This is why I've patiently pointed out that works of reference dealing with philosophy would be the ideal sources for the claim that Leary was a philosopher. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:50, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I think you're ignoring the word "or" in the definition of reliable source. It doesn't have to be "authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject" but, rather, may be, or it may be "materials with a reliable publication process", which we have plenty of. -- Irn (talk) 11:05, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

*Strongly opposed* This is an attempt by Msnicki to "own" a controversial topic, and to circumvent a consensual resolution through administrative force. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 21:04, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I bet I could find over a hundred different sources crediting Timothy Leary as a philosopher and it still wouldn't be good enough for some of you people.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 21:18, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't care what you bet. Provide a hundred different sources, if you can - they might be perfectly acceptable and convincing, if, for example, they are high-quality sources specifically about philosophy. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 21:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Request disabled due to lack of consensus — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:28, 1 April 2016 (UTC) Many of the sources listed are reliable and of good quality. FKC, you just seem to have a bias against any philosopher who advocated psychedelic drugs, thats why you went to Aldous Huxley's article immediately after Leary's article was blocked from editing and deleted philosopher from his list of occupations.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 22:11, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

WP:TPYES: "Comment on content, not on the contributor: Keep the discussions focused upon the topic of the talk page, rather than on the personalities of the editors contributing to the talk page." FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:48, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious that there are plenty of sources describing him as a philosopher, and I don't know why this is still a discussion. --OpenFuture (talk) 04:39, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I explained my problems with Leary being called a "philosopher" without qualification above, with reference to WP:RS. I would not have the least objection to having the article state that someone described Leary as a "psychedelic philosopher", but calling him a "philosopher" without qualification, or listing "philosopher" as his occupation, is something else again. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:18, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

There is plenty of sources describing him as a philosopher without qualifications. That you don't like it, doesn't change that, and doesn't mean you can remove it, just as I unfortunately can't remove it from the enormously overrated quasi-thinker Ayn Rand. WP:RS trumps our personal opinions. --OpenFuture (talk) 07:07, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Plenty? Which one? Just show a single Wikipedia acceptable reliable source, and the issue is closed. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 08:07, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

There is six listed at the top of this section. --OpenFuture (talk) 08:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Then bring it to a vote to see if you have a Wikipedia consensus. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 09:23, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

No, you don't WP:VOTE about consensus. This is not an issue of 3 vs 2 votes or anything. Wikipedia has policies, and those should be followed. The article currently calls Leary a philosopher. This has been called into doubt. As a result there has now been provided 6 or more reliable sources calling Leary a philosopher. WP:RS trumps WP:DONTLIKEIT. You instead need to come up with a lot of reliable sources stating that Leary is NOT a philosopher. --OpenFuture (talk) 10:07, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Why are you deciding for everybody what's "reliable source"? Quote WP:Vote -- "While not forbidden, polls should be used with care. When polls are used, they should ordinarily be considered a means to help in determining consensus" BlueMist (talk) 14:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm not "deciding" this. They are quite clearly reliable sources. --OpenFuture (talk) 16:32, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

As I have already patiently pointed out, two of those sources obviously do not call Leary a philosopher, and it is original research to try to use them to support the "philosopher" claim. That's quite independent of the issue of the reliability of the sources in question. This is not, as Msnicki wrongly states, a matter of "hair-splitting", but of basic responsibility in using sources: editors should not use sources to try to support claims they do not directly support. Msnicki's revert is disruptive, given that there should be no need to restore those dubious citations, if the others were sufficient. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 22:49, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

And I've explained why I think your argument is dumb. I don't agree with and doubt you can find consensus support for hairsplitting that sources reporting that "Leary explored the ... philosophical implications of psychedelic drugs" and that "he founded a sort of LSD philosophy of use that involved aspects of mind expansion and the revelation of personal truth through "dropping acid." do not support a claim that he was in fact a philosopher. Philosophers philosophize. That is what this one did. These sources support that and describe his work as a philosopher. Msnicki (talk) 22:56, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Maybe you find insistence on following WP:NOR "dumb" when that gets inconvenient, but WP:NOR is still an important Wikipedia policy. If you want to support a claim that someone is a philosopher, find a source that directly, unambiguously calls them a philosopher. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:00, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Another trip to yet another drama board? Sure. I would expect no less. Would either WP:RSN or WP:ORN seem satisfactory? Take your pick and I will follow. Msnicki (talk) 23:07, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Unsolicited third-party opinion - the description of "philosopher" in the lede is well-supported by sources that meet WP:RS. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 02:44, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Even if we accept your hair-splitting (because it is hairsplitting to claim that someone who explores philosophical implications isn't a philosopher), that leaves four reliable sources that DO call him a philosopher. Against zero reliable sources that offers the opposite standpoint. This isn't even a controversy, it's just you stubbornly pushing your non-neutral point of view, as you so often do. --OpenFuture (talk) 05:10, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Skyerise has now also objected to describing Leary as a philosopher, also arguing this is impermissable WP:OR. Consequently, I have posted a request for guidance at WP:ORN#Sources to support claim that Timothy Leary was a philosopher. Msnicki (talk) 04:50, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Additional references

References from HighBeam Research-- Isaidnoway (talk) 05:32, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

References

Philosophy of mind

In the absence of a source stating that Timothy Leary was engaged in philosophy of mind, he must not be labelled a "philosopher of mind", as that violates WP:NPOV. This edit by Msnicki restores a category that has no basis in anything in the article, and the edit summary used ("His philosophy of mind expansion doesn't count? Of course it does"), shows clearly that Msnicki's reason for restoring the category is simply based on her personal beliefs about philosophy rather than reliable sources. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:30, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Agree. And Leary did not write about the philosophy of mind. "Mind expansion" is not a topic in the philosophy of mind. TFD (talk) 17:52, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Agree. The silly part of the recent fuss here and at Aldous Huxley (any others!?) is that referring to Leary and Huxley as philosophers is using a very informal meaning of that word that is only tenuously connected to its encyclopedic meaning. Johnuniq (talk) 23:56, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Literature about expanding the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world has very much to do with the philosophy of mind. Mind manifesting drugs are tools that are as useful to the philosophy of mind as the microscope is to biology or the telescope is to astronomy. Why do you think LSD was called the philosopher's stone? In fact the mysteries of eleusis, which nearly every ancient greek philosopher participated in, may have very well been a psychedelic drug. I don't think it is too far off to suggest that someone who was called a philosopher back in ancient greece might today be considered a shaman.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 03:51, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Please see WP:NOR. You are entitled to your personal view of what the philosophy of mind is, but no one should be adding the category when there is no evidence of any kind that Leary is considered a philosopher of mind by reliable sources. In the absence of supporting sources, the category must be removed. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:59, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

To argue that philosophy of mind expasion is not the same as the philosophy of mind would only be a splitting of hairs.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 04:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

No one has any need to discuss an issue of that nature. If you want the article to include a "philosopher of mind" category, then per WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, you need a reliable source supporting the claim that Leary was a philosopher of mind: that's perfectly simple. Please review the policies. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:59, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The sources are reliable, and the category should only be removed once you have a consensus to do so which you currently do not have.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 05:09, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

There are no sources of any kind that call Leary a "philosopher of mind", and of those users who have commented on the issue, most support removing the category. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The sources call Leary a philosopher of mind expansion. What your doing is merely hair splitting.2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 05:44, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

No, there is no source that calls Leary a "philosopher of mind expansion", and even if there was a source that used that exact expression, there is no evidence that "philosopher of mind expansion" has anything in common with the academic discipline called philosophy of mind. If you want the article to categorize Leary as a philosopher of mind, you need a reliable source that actually calls him a philosopher of mind. Your arguments are specious, and amount to an attempt to avoid the plain meaning of WP:NOR. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 06:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Right, and after I find several different reliable sources you will find any trivial reason imaginable to argue that it's either not of good enough quality or that it's unreliable, and finally after a week of debate and after I find over a dozen different reliable sources you will complain about that there being too many cited sources and accuse me of being disruptive. Then ultimately you'll admit that you actually agreed all along but really just wanted your source to be the only source cited. That's how this goes right?2605:A000:1200:600F:BDC2:282A:6C52:766B (talk) 06:57, 11 April 2016 (UTC)