Talk:Kvenland

Certain related talks

Some related discussions are at Talk:Kven (historical), and of course a full arsenal of quarrels are at Talk:Kven Suedois 17:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Some mergers

Contents of articles (now redirects) presently at Kvens (historical) and Kvenland (a fork of this article) have today 4 July 2006 got merged into this article. Edit histories of those texts are available at said page addresses: [1] and [2]. Suedois 17:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Problem with redirections is that search engines, like Google, now ignore Wikipedia's KVENLAND page completely. --Drieakko 06:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Mostly nonsense

The article makes a lot of claims without any substance. Like there is no evidence whatsoever that "Kvenland" and "Kainuu" are the same at all. Also redirection from Kvenland can be disputed.

Dear anonymous, please kindly sign your posts. Your opinions would be taken more seriously if they show that you are not afraid of showing your sig. I may agree (or whatever), but I cannot be bothered to check thse contents if just seeing a "nonsense" allegation by a writer whose stance cries anonymity, a position of nonsense in itself. Suedois 00:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Here are some main highlights that are incorrect:

1) Geography:

"By most accounts, the historic Kvenland can be identified as the entire Northern Scandinavian territory around and above the coast shores of the Gulf of Bothnia (a sea dividing today's Sweden and Finland) and the White Sea (part of today's Northwestern Russia), all the way up north to the coast of the Arctic Ocean and its Barents Sea in the extreme northeastern corner of the Scandinavian peninsula."

There is no historic account that says this. This is imagination which is loosely and incorrectly based on actual descriptions.

2) Living together with Sami people:

"The Finno-Ugric Sami population have traditionally inhabited parts of the same territories with the Kvens."

Again, there is no reference whatsoever in any source material that confirms this claim.

3) Sagas:

"Egils saga tells about Nór, founder of Norway, and his ancestors who lived in Kvenland."

Egils saga says no such thing. This is a reference to Fundinn Noregr, another saga.

4) Finnish mythology:

"Kvenland has also been associated with Pohjola - Ostrobothnia - in the Finnish Kalevala tradition folklore."

There is no evidence whatsoever about that association. And saying that semi-religious "Pohjola" would be the same as secular "Ostrobothnia" is just guessing. Also:

"In the epic Finnish Kalevala legend - as in the Finnish language in general - Kvenland has always been known as Kainuu, Kainu or Kainuunmaa."

is incorrect. There is no country known as Kainuu in Kalevala. And surely no Kvenland. Kalevala is also not a legend, it was written in 19th century based on heavily modified old Karelian songs. The claim that "Kvenland" would've always been known as "Kainuu" in Finnish is without factual basis and only a hypothesis.

5) Tacitus:

"In his 98 AD book, Tacitus also discusses the Fenni of the Northernmost Scandinavia. It is debated whether the Fenni in this context was a reference to the Finno-Ugric Sami population or the Finns."

What has this got to do with the Kven article?

6) Written sources:

"The Kvens are also discussed in early Norse literature, Viking Age sagas and other historical writings of the Medieval Period."

Kvenland is not mentioned in any early Norse literature. It is briefly mentioned in 2 Icelandic sagas from the 13th century and in one English account from year 890 which is based on an oral account from a travelling Norwegian. And that's all. Nothing more. Nowhere.

Also (speaking of Alfred the Great's account):

"According to this source, as well as some Russian sources, the Norwegians and the Kvens united their forces on the 9th century against the attacks by the (Finnish) Karelians, who - with the assistance of Novgorod - made advances up North, particularly coming to the 11th century."

is totally incorrect. There was no alliance in 9th century against Novgorod since there was no Novgorod at that time yet! Also Alfred's source says no such thing and no Russian sources have any information about Kvenland.

And so on. The article needs to be reorganized and rewritten. I can do that during upcoming weeks, if no objections are raised. Sorry for leaving my signature out. Drieakko 00:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Please do that! It will be appreciated. Unfortunately, this article has a sad history of extremely fierce edit wars. The previous contributors, including myself, lack the first-rate expertise you seem to possess. It is truly great if the ghost of national-chauvinistic pseudo-history, long-reigning in this article, will be finally buried.130.232.100.1 08:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, now done. I tried to follow the following principles:

- Present-day Kvens have their own article, no redundant information about them here

- Have the ancient sources referenced in their entirety instead of claiming them to say something that they do not say

- Sources that handle Nordic history without mentioning Kvens are not discussed Drieakko 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Faravid vs Southwestern Finland

How do we fit the quite accepted idea that Faravid was a chieftain somewhere in today Finnmark or its vicinity, with the idea that his Kvenland is today southwestern Finland? Suedois 19:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it does not fit here at all. Faravid is the Kvenland king in Egil's saga. The idea to place Faravid and his Kvenland to north is only based on Kyösti Julku's partial interpretation of Egil's Saga which many have accepted without actually reading what the saga says. The saga itself does not give any sufficient reason for that conclusion. Drieakko 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Please, read some more before you make these claims about Julku and Kvenland. Almost every researchers has placed Kvenland around the Gulf of Bothnia, but not in Finnmark or soutwestern Finland. Almost everyone. Nevertheless, the settlers of Kvenland migh come from southwest Finland where we have some Kaiunnu place names, but this can easily be disputed. Is Kainuu the Finnish word for Kven?

--84.216.52.22 18:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I open discussion for the Origin of the name Kainuu here.--Drieakko 20:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there has been rather little research on Kvenland. Publications are mainly referring to Julku's work from 1986. The book is available in Finnish. Julku goes through the same sources than the article. His conclusion is different, and anyone with an access to the book can compare how this is possible. Julku was a historian in northern Finland and he wanted to prove that Kvenland was the same as his own neighborhood. However, his methods were not completely ok. Firstly, Julku's translations of old sources are not inline with what is commonly available. Checking further to the original language of the old accounts, it seems that Julku has made several questionable decisions to "polish" the texts to better fit his purpose. For example, just check how Julku "translates" Ottar's account and the original text (and neutral translation) here. Secondly, Julku concentrated on picking only those parts of the texts that suited his purpose. Parts that did not fit were just ignored. Thirdly, his conclusions created conflicts in the original texts that he did not bother to solve or even mention. Perhaps an article of its own should be written to go through Julku's work, but at least those with his book can do the checking already now. --Drieakko 21:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Kings of Kvenland

User:Haldog keeps inserting the link to webpage http://www.kvenland.com/ with fantastic unreferenced list of "Kings of Kvenland". Please keep an eye. `'mikka (t) 01:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

What is your problem? I didn't realize one person owned this page and could decide what people are allowed to contribute. Is there some reason other than your opinion of "unreferenced" lists that you are removing my link? If you keep doing it, I will give up and you will win if that's important to you but I understood Wiki to be an intellectual site and I'm very disappointed to think that perhaps it is not. There are many references to these kings -- maybe you should do a search and see what you find. I am going to put the link in once more and if it is removed, I will understand more than you realize. Haldog

Your link to www.kvenland.com is ok if you only gave references where the amazing information of 2000 year-old Finnish kings is coming from. As far as I can tell, it is in large part pure imagination that is just made to look like it would be real. Wikipedia is not a place to spread that kind of information. --Drieakko 04:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Errors and Missing Content

User:WeBeToys and others, please write here if you find errors, missing information or just want conclusion to be reversed. I'm more than ready to correct the text, if it is incorrect. But please stay in the subject:

• Present-day Kvens have their own article, please keep all the related discussion there
• This is an article about Kvenland and Kvens of the past, so information not related to them needs to be discussed elsewhere. Article explodes if all ancient references to Finns, Sami people and whatever nations there have been in the northern Europe are loaded into this article as if they were "might-be" references to Kvens. Just concentrate on what there is about Kvens, please
• There are as many opinions of Kvenland as there are scholars. Since the information about Kvenland is very scarce, it can be referred to here directly instead of only referring to others referring to it

--Drieakko 13:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This is the first time in my life, after reading some 150 articles about the history of North Calotte - that Kvenland is placed to southwest Finland. Remarkable conclusions!!! To say the least! The reference list is very impressive and one can get the impression that this article is based on the references. Perhaps there are a few, for me unknown, articles placing Kvenland to southwestern Finland. However, a few researchers believe that the place names with Kainuu-names in southwestern Finland is the oldest source for the origin on Kvenland around the Gulf of Bothnia, i.e people from southwestern Finland settled the Kvenland. But this is something else. The author of this article should clearly mark that a great number of reserarchers place Kvenland around today´s Norrbotten, Ostrobothnia and northern Västerbotten, i.e in the northernmost region of the Gulf of Bothnia. We have well established facts, as late as 1745 by a person from Denmark who visited the region and wrote a very detailed report claiming that the Kvens lived precisely in the same region where today's Tornedalians are settled. It would be very strange of Kvenland then was in southwest Finland. Remarkable that this kind of stuff is accepted in Wikipedia. There is no evidence what so ever that the Torne valley region has been abandoned after the Kvens and Saami arrived to the region. All evidence indicate that the settlers of the Torne valley where Kvens and Saami, and they have lived there since then. The label Kvens, most likely given by visitors (as the term Lapp meaning Saami), was changed to Torne valley finns after 1745. The reason is unknown. We do not know their own ethnonym, but have weak indications that the Kainulainen is the ethnonym of themselves. --84.216.52.22 13:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Please note that Swedes have lived close to the Torne Valley for at least 600 years and have not indicated in any way that people called "Kvens" lived there in any of the documentation or traditions. The word "Kven" has simply not been used or known by them, but only by Norwegians. Swedes surely would have recognized if they were asked if "Finns" lived there. --Drieakko 21:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The 1745 source, Peter Schnitler's report, was written by - as far as I know - a Danish person. He visited the North calotte region and tried to map the borders of the region and which peoples lived there. Very reliable source. We have very good evidence that the Kvens of Norway came from Torne valley, repcisely the same region which Schnitler claimed to be settled by the Kvens. Clearly to some extent the same region inhabited by the Kainulaiset. However, to make things more complicated, all Swedish Tornedalians - as my self - use the term Kainulainen meaning Swedish-speaking group living just outside the language border of Torne valley Finnish in the municipalities Överkalix and Kalix. Even Kalix and Överkalix are termed Kainus and Ylikainus in Torne Valley Finnish. I was born in Kainulas-järvi,i.e the 'lake of the kainulaiset'. Lot's of place names in that region has a Finnish origin. It might been that the original settlers were teh true Kainulaiset. This term Kainulainen is very old and frequently used in todays Torne valley Finnish or Meänkieli.

The Swedish king Carl IX claimed to be king of kvens and swedes; in Swedish kväners och svears konung. This was about 1615?--130.237.165.114 11:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The title of King Carl IX was "Carl then Nijonde medh Gudz nådhe, Swerikes, Göthes, Wendes, Finnars, Carelers, Lappers j Nordlanden, the Caijaners, och Esters j Lifland, etc. Konung". This was during 1607-1611 CE. Note that his title has no Kvens anywhere. See Kings of Kvenland for more. --Drieakko 12:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

No discussion about the Kven in the Novgorod sources from 14th century. Kven-term is used a number of times in these sources defining the national border between Novgorod and Sweden, the very first national border in the east part of Sweden. No doubt that Kvensea was the northernmost part of Gulf of Bothnia in these fairly reliable official documents; no researcher has ever claimed anything else. The claim that the word Kven was invented by the Norwegians to distinguish the Saami (Finns) from the Finnish-speaking Finns is pure mythology. Lot´s of nonsense like this in the article. What interests and political perspective has the author of this article?--84.216.52.22 13:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. All the ancient (Iron and Middle Ages) references that I know about Kvenland and Kvens are currently handled in the article. Please let me know if there are any other. See article about Origin of the name Kven for more about where name "Kven" might have come. Term "kainulainen" was invented in the 20th century by a nationalist Finnish historian and politician Kustaa Vilkuna, if my memory does not fail me here. It never appears anywhere before that. "Kvensea" only appears in the Orosius from 890 CE and never again anywhere after that. Not a single Russian 14th or 15th century source handling Russian border uses name "Kven" or "Kvenland". You are probably mistaking it here with the name "Kajano more" (the Kajaani Sea) that the peace treaty from 1323 uses for Gulf of Bothnia. That name was probably adopted by Russians from the Karelians who used names "Kajaani" / "Kainuu" for all the northern areas where they settled from the 13th century onwards. --Drieakko 23:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Please read more about Russian border documents from the 14th and 15th century here. --Drieakko 21:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I do not support your position,e g. Kainulainen is used as an etnonym referring to the Kvens in northern Norway by the Kvens, not all, but some do that even today.

"Kainulainen" and "Kainuulainen" are very common terms related to today's Kainuu and of late origin. The word just means "an inhabitant of Kainuu". However, "kainulainen" as an ancient Finnish equivalent of "Kven" is imagination and not supported by any source. If you know a source that supports another view, please indicate. --Drieakko 12:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Empiric link between kven and kainulainen - here

Ph D. Irene Andressen from Alattio and teacher Terje Aronsen from Byssyjoki (as well as few other persons) have a few informants telling them that they are kainulaiset, i.e Kvens living in Northern Norway claiming to be kainulaiset and not kvens in their language. Kven is the Norwegian term. One informant told Irene Andreassen yesterday in telephone, August 23 2006, that "met olema kainulaiset" 'we are kainulaiset'. She is 87 years old and lives in Pyssyjoki-Börselv. She is a very reliable source, according to Irene Andressen. Well, Drieakko? Would a 87 year old woman try to be populistic? She does hardly understand the implication of what she is saying, i.e. not imbued with so called populistic theories. I believe Drieakko can get her telephone number and listen to her story?! --130.237.165.114 11:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, just go to a few villages near Vadsö and ask the neighbours of who the Kainulaiset are. There were a few people living 3 years ago claiming that they were the kainulaiset, i.e some of the Kvens in Northern Norway claim to be kainulaiset. Reference: Ph.D Irene Andreassen in Alattio, Northern Norway (get here e-mail from the web), claimed this 2 years ago, 2004. Do you need better evidence? --130.237.165.114 12:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

So, where goes the line between people adopting a populistic theory about their own roots and them preserving information on their roots independently? To make a claim like this, evidence prior to theories needs to be presented. --Drieakko 13:28, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you reject reality and demand evidence from a reality before any theory was presented then you are truly free to invent reality. Evidence can be selected and rejected with very simple methods. Certainly those to use the term kainulainen should be checked on how and where they learnt it, but I assume that Irene Andreassen has acquired that quality in her profession.--130.237.165.114 13:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean with Kainuu, where is that according to you? But the term kainulainen in Finnish sources clearly denote people living in Ostrobothnia; lot's of examples in the dialect archives of Finland. They had thinner and longer faces than the Savolaxians, so the soruces claim. In my home region we said tha tthe Kainulaiset, who speak Swedish today, are thing-long faced with thin long legs.--130.237.165.114 13:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Kainuu is an old name for all of Pohjanmaa. It has been primarily used by people from Karelia and Savo. Today, the name is used only for the easternmost area of Pohjanmaa that was inhabited on the 16th century. People speaking the Kainuu dialect are unmistakenly from Savo. Savo dialect has also influenced northern Western Finnish dialects to which language spoken by today's Kvens belongs to because people from Savo also settled on the coasts of Pohjanmaa, which however was predominantly Western Finnish. Savo dialect (and Kainuu dialect) are Eastern Finnish dialects. There is no doubt in that Savo and Karelian people that settled on the areas which they called Kainuu would have also called themselves as "kainu(u)lainen" which just means "an inhabitant of Kainuu". The question is only about whether there is a direct connection between words "Kven" and "kainulainen" that goes unproved. It is difficult to accept that if there was an earlier tribe called "kainulainen", that people from Savo and Karelia would have adopted their name to mean themselves and areas where they settled. There is also no evidence available that dialects spoken in the north would have pre-migration (before 13th century) elements that would indicate earlier existence of Finnish language in the north. --Drieakko 13:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

So, who are those kainulaiset living in Sweden speaking Swedish? All Swedish Tornedalians - as my self - use the term Kainulainen meaning Swedish-dialect speaking person living just outside the language border of Torne valley Finnish in the municipalities Överkalix and Kalix. Even Kalix and Överkalix are termed Kainus and Ylikainus in Torne Valley Finnish. I was born in Kainulas-järvi,i.e the 'lake of the kainulaiset'. Lot's of place names in that region has a Finnish origin. It might been that the original settlers were teh true Kainulaiset. This term Kainulainen is very old and frequently used in todays Torne valley Finnish or Meänkieli. How do these link up with the kainulaiset of Pohjanmaa?--130.237.165.114 14:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no sufficient expertise to answer to you in a fully satisfying way. The issue itself is very interesting and I should get to know it better. However, a few words could be assigned to the Swedish area "Kalix" that Finns today call "Kainu(s)". A big river called "Kalixälv" (River Kalix) runs through it. The name seems to be a derivative of Sami "Gáláseatnu" that means approximately "a long cold river". Finns have used a similarly derived word "Kaallasväylä" (more here) for the same river. Since the Sami name most probably is the original one and both Finns and Swedes have one time adopted it, it seems that "River Kainuu" as the river is today known in Finnish, has a more recent origin. This would most probably also give a recent dating to the area with the similar name "Kainu(s)" around the delta of the river. Easiest explanation is that there was a later Karelian/Savonian settlement on the area that eventually started to speak Swedish, using the name "Kainuu" like they did on all areas in the north. Whatever the history behind "Kainu(s)" here is, its connection to "Kven" remains open. --Drieakko 15:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, as you said that was not a sufficient answer. The Saami kaalas can be something else. You claim that only Norwegians/Danes use the term Kven. You must be awre that Olaus Magnus ca 1540 wrote Qvenas in his map. He was a Swedish bishop, born in Sweden, the last catholic bishop who fled to Rome. He had no interest to imitate the Norwegians. Where did he got that term?--217.208.231.130 20:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Moreover. In Meänkieli the term kaalas 'cold, chilly' is well known, I use this word sometimes. There is no reason to believe that we have derived kainus from kaalas. We should say Kaalasväylä, as we in fact do in the northern part closer to the Saami region, i.e in Gällivare and Kiruna municipalities. But Kainhuun väylä refers only to the southern part of Kalix river where the Swedish speakers live, and where we have a number of Finnish place names, e.g Morjärvi, Talljärv, Räktjärv, Ansvar etc. Kaalasväylä is just referring to the Saami region and Kainhuunväylä to the Swedish-speaking region, as well as our Finnish-speaking region in its southern parts, i.e Tärendö parish and Korpilompolo parish.

• Gáláseatnu is the name of the Kalix River in Sami. The most probable development is that Finns took the name first (Kaallasväylä) and then Swedes took it from the Finns (Kalixälv). "Kainuu" seems to be a later name for the area in the south, not in any way related to original Sami based naming and having nothing to do with "kaalas" at all.
• "Kven" originally (pre-14th century sources) appears only in Norwegian (and Icelandic) sources, not in Danish at all.
• Olaus Magnus' map of Scandinavia from 1539 CE can be seen here in great detail. There is at least a small town named "Berkara Qvenar" on area that seems to be in Norway, north of Trondheim. Perhaps a reference to Kvens? Could you point other possible references to Kvens in his map since I can not find any. --Drieakko 21:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The first Finnish settlers of Torne valley

You write: Easiest explanation is that there (valley of Kainuu river) was a later Karelian/Savonian settlement on the area that eventually started to speak Swedish, using the name "Kainuu" like they did on all areas in the north." Well, many researchers claim that the west Finns were the first settlers of the Torne valley, after the Saami. You seem to argue that Karelians were first in the Kainuu river valley. There is a cultural connection between Kainulaiset and todays Tornedalian finns in that sense that these along with the Saami are the only ethnic groups in Sweden who are rein deer herders; as the Finns in Finnish Torne valley are. There are 8 Saami villages in this region, including the south part of the Kainuu river, where they have not been speaking Finnish during centuries; still they are rein deer herders and members of a Saami village: Kalix Saami village. It is an indication of some older relationships. Were they not West Finns? Why do the Tornedalians use mie and sie and not west Finnish very frequent pronouns. How could they change typical very resistent pronouns to Karelian terms.--84.216.55.188 06:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Western Finns most likely settled there first. Old Finnish name "Kaallasväylä" which Swedes adopted from them as "Kalixälv" and which they had adopted from Sami, seems like a good evidence on that. However, Karelians were already then (around 12th and 13th century) active in the north, and Karelian influences are found in the local dialects around the Bay of Bothnia. Savonians (predominantly of Karelian origin) came last, around the 16th century. --Drieakko 15:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This is beginning to be interesting! In Olaus Magnus map we have only qvenas and birkarls in Northern Sweden, Finland and Norway. And rex scrifinor and rex helsingorv - what ever that might mean. Rex 'king'? Why did he only mention these two groups? Not the Saami or the Finns? And I asked about Srifinoa, the meaning of that word in Olaus Magnus map? Finns or Saami?--84.216.53.26 12:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Third important notice is that Olaus Magnus mentions Helsingeby, which later got the name Kainuunkylä. What is the idea to explain this shift of names?--84.216.53.26 13:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Also this shift in names is easiest explained as a result of heavy Savonian immigration from the 16th century onwards. --Drieakko 15:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Kven as a Danish term and Qvenas as a Swedish term

1. Drieakkao did not respond to the term Kven used by the Danish officer in 1745 when visitng the region. Kven was used of the Tornedalians at least one time, very sepcific. Is that not a reliable source? 2. Olaus Magnus claims that Scrifinnia is the name of the Torne valley region, or Norrbotten and Torne valley. Well, earlier interpretations is that Scrifinns are Saami. No Finns then at all in northern Sweden, only Scrifinn Saami and Lapp Saami. Or is Scrifinni the same as Finns (suomalaiset), which should be the interpretation based on Olaus Magnus map? 3. Qvenas Bercara is not a town, but Olaus Magnus misinterpreted the stories he heard and read and claimed that birkarlar were mountain men, Bergkarl in Swedish, and these men were in some way linked to the Kvens, as he had learned. It does not seem like a town, no buildings around. And mountain men must live in the mountains, so he put them in the mountain between Norway and Sweden, though all sources point to the conclusion that the birkarls lived in the todays Norrbotten, Torne valley, an dperhaps further south. So, Kvens was accepted as a people by Olaus Magnus.--84.216.55.157 19:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Note that this article is handling ancient Kven sources from Iron and Middle Ages. Up until 13th century. Word "Kven" appears only in Norwegian and Icelandic sources from that era and quite clearly meaning all Finns. Both Olaus Magnus (the 16th century) and the Danish officer from the 18th century belong to a whole different time, separated by hundreds of years from the sources discussed in the article. Before the borders were set in the north and when people from different countries and especially from Norway could move freely in Lappland and Finnmark, "Kven" was most probably quite commonly used in local language about Finns in the north where Finns had started to settle there from 14th century onwards, until its usage retreated to present-day Finnmark in Norway when borders were finally drawn and closed in the 19th century. Both accounts mentioned here seem quite typical misunderstandings of local terminology that persons in question had never heard before anywhere else. --Drieakko 20:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

You are making it very simple by excluding all sources after 1500. Why not exclude all sources after 9th century? Then we have only Scrifinna, Finnas and perhaps Finnmark. No Kvens at all. Many centuries after Tacitus the Kven arrived to the region as an invention by the Norwegians. I believe the Danish officer had a tradition of Kvens in his context. And perhaps he asked the local people of what they are called by the Swedes?--84.216.55.188 06:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, all sources after about 1250 CE are excluded from this article. They should be handled in another article called Kvens. The Kven articles in Wikipedia were split without my influence. However, I support the split. Reasons to separate "ancient" and "contemporary" Kven sources are:

• All "ancient" sources of Kvens also mention "Kvenland". This name does not appear in later sources (after 13th century), but just "Kvens".
• There was a huge migration from the 13th century onwards in Fennoscandia that changed the balance of nations dramatically in the north. Especially the Finnish population expanded heavily during the 14th and 17th century. Sources during and after this migration are best handled separately from sources before it. "Ancient" sources are from era during which especially the Finnish population was in a rather static state, at least in comparison to the time after it.
• "Ancient" sources are from era (or describe an era) when Finns were not yet annexed by Swedes. This took place around 1250 CE.

About Olaus Magnus yet. Please look at the map closer. In the middle of the section B, there is a lake (or is it a fjord?) in Norway on the western side of the mountains and two small buildings drawn by the lake. Right under the buildings there is the text "Berkara Qvenar". The lake, the buildings and the text are roughly positioned on area between Lofoten and Tromsø which both are marked on the map. Easiest explanation is that the name is related to an early Kven settlement in northern Norway. --Drieakko 06:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Almost all other village names are put directly above/below the houses. Here we have a clearly marked distance to the houses, meaning that Qvenar is not a village, but the region where Mountainmen lived.--84.216.55.188 06:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The names of the towns and villages are placed on all sides of the drawn symbols as visually most fitting. The fact that the name of the village on the lake is drawn a bit more loosely from the symbol is probably just because there has been more space and Olaus has wanted his map evenly filled and decorated. This does not have to mean that the village actually existed, Olaus might just have indicated Kven population in northern Norway using a symbol of a village. First few Kvens were already then living in northern Norway according to Norwegian tax documentation (see Kvens for more.) Also note that Olaus did not generally write tribe or people names on his map (unless he misunderstood them for place names). --Drieakko 08:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Not generally, but birkarls and qvenas are mentioned. Magnus visited the region and musta have met Saami and Tornedalians and kainulaiset i Kalix-Kainus. But, no Finns and no Saami, are mentioned, as far as I can see. But you argue that the qvenas was an invention and he misunderstood the term Scrifinni, or did I get it wrong? It is remarkable that Magnus only mentions the tradingpeople a couple of times, and an invented terms, but has nothing to tell us about reality, e.g the people who really lived there, the Saami and the Finns. Well, your ideas are seemingly demanding that not even Magnus understood what he was writing about. --84.216.53.26 12:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Recommendation to the editors of Wikipedia

If Wikipedia is for the purpose to present new ideas, then the article is okay. But not if it as an encyklopedia to present existing ideas. Then these articles goes far beyond those limits. --84.216.52.195 19:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Please list the errors so that they can be corrected. I know that the article has a very dull conclusion, but sometimes history is not exciting. --Drieakko 23:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Note that the article does not really present any new ideas. It only goes thoroughly through the sources that there are about ancient Kvenland. My personal opinion is that in this kind of cases Wikipedia is much more useful when it presents the original material directly instead of referring to other publications referring to it which just leads the readers running after those other publications. --Drieakko 20:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

But this article is a new perspective on the history of Kvens, i.e. fairly new reserach hardly published in any paper. If everybody were allowed to present their own version of any term based existing sources then we would have a great number of "reserarch articles". I give okay for your article, but the editors of Wikipedia should reflect upon what kid of articles do they wan tto have.

I am myself looking here for an article that is unbiased, objective and exhaustive. My personal views, if such exist, should not be there. If some of the text feels like subjective handling of the material, please indicate it. I have gone through most of the earlier discussions around the subject which eventually seemed to have gone out of this world (my apologies to everyone) and there did not seem to be any other way to have it back on the planet but to go through the original sources, well-referenced. --Drieakko 12:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Place names and settlers, what do they tell us?

Drieakko claims that the term kainuu, kainulainen was given by Karelian tribes of people, regions along the Gulf of Bothnia. Well, that might be so. But it can hardly be the Karelians who gave name to all placenames with Kainuu all along the Finnish coast and along Kalix river, as well as in south western Finland. The first settlers gave the name Kainuu and from that perhaps the term kainulaiset was given by the Karelians, though it seems to be a dubious conclusion. We have very few place names with Kainuu in Karelia, so the term was foreign to them. And I don't belive, or I know, that the place names with Kainuu are overwhelmingly many. So it might been their own term. We who live here are Kianulaiset, because our name of the village is, e.g. Kainus/Ylikainus. How can Drieakko explain his view?

Name Kainuu has been used by Karelians and later by people from Savo (predominantly of Karelian origin) seemingly for all the northern areas. Origin of the name Kainuu is not clear. Practically all the inhabitants of today's Kainuu in Finland are from Savo from the 16th century onwards and speak a dialect very close to Savo dialect. Name "Kainuu" appears also in place names all over Pohjanmaa basically everywhere that people from Savo settled between the 16th and 18th centuries. Majority of the settlers on those areas were from Western Finland so name "Kainuu" did not overwhelm "Pohjanmaa" as the name for the entire area and eventually remained only for the easternmost part of it as well as for individual places here and there. If also the first settlers from Western Finland had used "Kainuu" as the name for the area, it is difficult to reason why they dropped it in favor of "Pohjanmaa". Theories about an earlier Finnish tribe in the north prior to migration period (before 13th century) lack both archaelogical and linguistical evidence. -Drieakko 08:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that you mean that the Savonians gave the Kainuu place names in south western Finland, quite a number. Why do we have the Kainuu place names in Satakunta? Who gave them names? There has not been any Savonians en mass in Satakunta. Please describe your opinion on this issue, then the rest follows about Pohjanmmaa which was inhabited by Savoninans and western Finns. Pohjaanmaalainen might be just another term competing with kainulainen and the latter one lost ground. In southwestern Finland kainulainen has never been used in any region, not in texts, though we have lot of place names with Kainuu. No, Drieakko, I belive you close your mind then and then in your reasoning and when you claim that the Karelians and Savonians invented, or began to use, the term Kainulainen. There is no perspective which is not contradictory in some parts. --130.237.165.114 11:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

If I remember correctly (and I may be wrong here), all just about a dozen names of insignificant places possibly related to this issue in southwestern Finland (mainly in Varsinais-Suomi) start with "Kainu-", and "kainu" is some sort of a farming equipment in the local dialect. But this may be wrong information and I need to do some checking. --Drieakko 20:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Drieakko writes: "There is no evidence that names "Kvenland" and "Kainuu" would be related." I believe it is a very strong statement, not unbiased and not base don facts. You just reject all those who have done these conclusions and say "no evidence". Did you not say: objective and neutral analysis.--84.216.53.155 19:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Please write article about the Origin of the name Kainuu and provide evidence. --Drieakko 20:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Kven-kainulainen and Kvenland -Kainuu/cajana and variations have been interlinked by some 3-6 researchers. Only Drieakko and the professors Holm and Sköld do not find any connection. It is not good writing style then to claim that "no evidence" exist. The majority has claimed a link, so Drieakko is in a minority and claims to be able to just reject: "no evidence". About 12 place names with Kainuu in Satakunta. And only a few Kainuu place names in todays Kainuu. These 12 place names are very important, obviously. If the Karelians invented the term Kainuu we should find a number of kainuu words, Kainuu place names in Karelia. But, we find only place names with Kainuu where the west finns have been first or been early settlers. Hence, a better conclusion is that the Karelians came to Ostrobthnia-Kainuu and heard for the very first time the word kainulainen and started to use the term. That is how we learn new terms (cultural diffusion), not just pure inventions directly downloaded from heaven. Conclusion: The words kainulainen and Kainuu were foreign word for the Karelians when they arrived to Pohjanmaa, and began to use them after that. Cajana is just a variant of Kainuu. I could say: There is "no evidence" to claimt that the word Kainuu was invented by the Karelians. Show me the evidence, please. I have shown mine: One hundred Kainuu place names in west Finnish regions.You: Nothing, aboslutely nothing. No evidence, Drieakko, pure speculations, I would say using your own terminology. In an scientific article I would use other wording. But this is a discussion page.--130.237.165.114 07:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so please write the article about the connection, reference it properly and let's see what we have then. I am very interested in reading it and always ready to change my opinions in the face of good evidence.

Few words about place names. Using place names normally works so that if you live on an area that is generally called XXX, you seldom use that XXX in the place names on that area. So, if you live in Sweden, you do not name places "Sweden-" in Sweden. Only when you move away from that area or you are a minority or you live on a border area, the general area name starts to appear in place names as well, or in case you need to differentiate yourself from something similar that your neighbours have. How many places starting with "Pohjanmaa-" are there in Varsinais-Suomi? There surely are not many places starting "Kainuu-" in Savo or Karelia - why ever would there be any? They used that name for northern areas; why would they have used the same name on their original areas? That would not be expected. Names starting with "Kainuu-" should thus not appear in Savo nor in Karelia. The fact that Karelians and people from Savo used "Kainuu" so heavily, points quite probably into the direction that there were no earlier people using the same name about themselves. If they had met people calling themselved "Kainu" or "Kainulainen" already there, it would not be expected that they had adopted that same name for their own usage. If however "Kainuu" in that form or another was an already existing local word without any other than geographical meaning, then the case is of course different. --Drieakko 09:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

If I move to a new region which has no inhabitants, and it is a low country, and I have the noun kainuu in my vocabulary mening lowland I would say let's stay in this kainuu, good place for argiculture near the coast. The Karelains have other terms for lowland, I am sure of that. And if the Karelians come there later on asking who live there the neighbours perhaps would say it is those kainulaiset or the persons concerned would claim that they live live in Kainuu. In fact, my home village Kainulasjärvi, is told to has it roots from a person from Kainus (Kalix) who moved to the lake Salmijärvi. The lake was said, most likely by neighbours and newcomers, to be the Kainulaisen järvi. Well I am kainulasjärvilainen, as my neighbours and I call my self. I have no time to write an article, but it is attempting. Some day!!

Also, look at the empiric link in Northern Norway above between kven and Kainulainen. This is brand new information. Just make a phone call and check if it is a reliable source who claims to be a kainulainen, one 87 year old Kven woman--130.237.165.114 11:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC).

If these links between Pohjanmaa and Kainuu is etablished then we have better ground. The name Kainuu was given by the first settlers and later on lost by some reason perhaps by the competing term Pohjanmaa, pohjanmaalainen etc. And the very same region was called Kvenland in one Icelandic source and by Ottar 860. The Swedish king was not very excited to accept other ethnic groups in Sweden and perhaps the term Kven was a pure Norwegian term and the Swedish King adopted the Finnish/russian term Kajaani/Kainuu (with variations) meaning Kvens. Remember that the Swedish king had more contacts eastwards than to the warrior Danes and Norse in the west. More information in Finnish, we may assume, also terms for ethnic peoples. Well, Drieakko, perhaps there is no etymological link between Kainuu and Kven but that these are two terms used of one and the same region and kvens and kainulaiset are one and the same people as Swedes and Ruottalaiset are (no link between these terms). One term in Norse and one term in old Finnish and todays Torednalen Finnish, Meänkieli.

Origins of the names Kven and Kainuu

Articles would be needed for Origin of the name Kven and Origin of the name Kainuu. --Drieakko 13:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Faravid - famously - led two nations, Kvenland and Finland

The area amusingly (no historian supports this outrageous and hilarious scam) shown in the Wikipedia article's map now as Kvenland is - of course - the historic Finland, approximately speaking (easily confirmable), not Kvenland, silly ! - - Art Dominique 16:57, 2 August 2006 (UTC) ---> Ps.: Wikipedia - as a known historian put it - is a place for amateurs, not for professionals (truer words have never been spoken) !

Thanks for your comment. Please tell the source of the information that Faravid led two nations since at least I am not aware of it. Kindly read the article as well. Please point out the mistakes and let's correct them immediately. --Drieakko 14:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I really can not find source of your information about Faravid leading two nations, Finland and Kvenland. All that sagas say about Faravid is here and here. It seems to me that your claim is fictional. --Drieakko 13:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

--> For those not familiar with what the sagas say about Kvens, please see the below correction of the obvious blooper:

This is getting very confusing. An anonymous user “signing” as Art Dominique, an infamous puppet master, starts a discussion about Faravid and then accuses Drieakko for not understanding that he is referring to Fornjotr. Then (s)he posts a long rant written earlier by one of his sockpuppets about something that has nothing to do with neither Faravid nor Fornjotr leading two nations. --Labongo 04:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Fornjotr - famously - led two nations, Kvenland and Finland

It appears that you were previously using the user names 130.234.75.183 and 217.30.179.130, among several others (which names already have been pointed out in the past).

It ought to be obvious to you then that these issues have already been discussed in this forum. Why not review what already has been stated and/or agreed upon. For instanse, the following past answer to you below should point out the above pure unintentional blooper - we are, of course, referring to Fornjotr, not Faravid in this context.

You ought to be this much aware as to what is said in the the historic sagas, if you chhose to make such strong statements and conclusions in reference to Kvens in Wikipedia !

-->

Max wrote to you for instance the following in the past:

" ...

1. You have seriously downplayed the value of Fundinn Noregr as a source for the Wikipedia Kven text.

Max: You added the word "mythological" (kings of ...) into the following sentence: "Fundinn Noregr discusses the kings of Finland and Kvenland and their conquest of Norway."

You: "According to Finnish historians, they are mythological. See article by Mikko Häme in Faravid 1991, if you read Finnish. See also the article Suomen kuninkaat in Finnish Wikipedia".

Max: You have now admitted to having written that particular article, Suomen kuninkaat ("the Finnish kings"), yourself, and still you seriously expect us to view that "crap" as a reliable source. You can't be serious ! Are you Mikko Häme ?

Max: In 1230 AD, in the introduction to the Orkneyinga Saga, the Fundinn Noregr text discusses the kings of Finland and Kvenland and their conquest of Norway. Based on the saga, the ruling families of Sweden, Norway, the Orkney Islands, Normandy, and England descend from these Finnish/Kven kings.

You: "I think it be would fair to say that in Old Scandinavian sources the term "Finn" usually or always refers to the Sami, not necessarily living to Finland, but in the Scandinavian peninsula. These obscure details have no relevance whatsoever in the discussion of the origins oh the Kvens."

Max: The highly respected expert on the field, the Emeritus Professor Kyösti Julku, says in his book, Kvenland (1986), page 69, that Fundinn Noregr ("Founding of Norway" - "Norwegia Inventa" in Latin) is "one of the most interesting and certainly also one of the most important sources when Kvenland and the Kvens are examined".

Professor Julku also states for instance on page 66, that "geographically the given information is extremely accurate. Not a single error can be pinpointed". And the Professor continues: "Can't we therefore also expect the description of the journey of Norr to have been laid out accurately".

What is there not to believe, and why ? Besides, the Fundinn Noregr description of Kvenland does in no way contradict or fight against the description given by Othar. Quite the opposite, the descriptions support each other, as Professor Julku points out.

Thus, let us repeat: What may seem "mythological" to you, seems very much accurate, clear and real to an increasing number of experts, based on all the very accurate geographical information given alone. Thus, we must provide this important information in Wikipedia, and without your personal twisted opinions or remarks added. If remarks must be added, they must be from a distinguished source, such as Julku for instance.

2. You: "I think it be would fair to say that in Old Scandinavian sources the term "Finn" usually or always refers to the Sami, not necessarily living to Finland, but in the Scandinavian peninsula". "... the meaning of the word "Finns" in Old Scandinavian sources originating from Norway and Iceland. I think it is quite commonly accepted - at least among the scholars - that a "Finn" means a northern hunter-gatherer, a "Sami", in these texts." ... "The "Finnish (Sami)" or "Kven" "kings" in the Sagas can be explained ..."

Max: In his 98 AD book, Tacitus also discusses the Fennos of the Northernmost Scandinavia. Previously many thought Fennos in this context to - possibly - have been a reference to the Finno-Ugric Sami population. However - according to Professor Kyösti Julku - that school of thought has now been challenged (Kvenland, Kyösti Julku, 1986): Perhaps Tacitus referred to the Finns - and not to the Samis - by "Fennos".

In the beginning of the Fundinn Noregr text, at very first it is announced that Fornjotr ruled/governed two nations, which were Finland and Kvenland. According to the Emeritus Professor Kyösti Julku, the first nation here "of course means Finland, i.e. which in later language use was Varsinais-Suomi" (--> i.e., meaning Southwestern Finland, which indeed was "Finland" in the beginning).

The location of Finland was not described in Fundinn Noregr, because it can be seen to have been - according to Julku - self-explanatory and clear. Kvenland's location, on the other hand, is discussed. Thus, Finland in this Scandinavian text, for instance, was not referring to a land of the Samis, as you keep claiming, but to the land of the Finns, as we understand them today.

Now, where is your example, proof and a distinguished source claiming Finland in a certain incident definitely having meant the land of the Samis, rather than the land of the Finns, as we know them today ? There may be such a case, but we are interested in seeing which particular case you would choose for an example. Or is that just speculation from your behalf ? What you describe as being "commonly accepted", certainly is not ! Quite the opposite.

The term Fin(n) - by varying spellings - was also used from early on in some other documents - not Scandinavian -, such as catholic Papal letters (to the "Swedes") and geographical and historical accounts, and not in reference to the Samis (although in some cases the Samis/Lapps may have been meant to be included when the term was used).

3. You: Unfortunately, we know very little about the sea-faring technology of Viking Age Finns, as our maritime archaeologists have not found so many prehistoric wrecks.

Max: As you must be aware, there is no need to use "sea-faring" equipment going via the Karelian Isthmus towards Moscow, Kiev, etc. The Finns/Kvens are known to have used light boats, as revealed in Othar's writings for instance: "Kveenit kantavat veneensä maataipaleiden yli näihin järviin, ja sotivat pohjanmiehiä vastaan". Besides, there are not a great number of any sort of Viking/Varangian Age wrecks left for our generation to study.

4. Max: "... Finnmark ("mark" meaning land - Compare: Denmark)."

You: "To be quite exact, "mark" does not mean land, but a border area, like in titles margrave or marquis. Danmark/Denmark = mark of the Danes. I think this applies in Finnmark as well. But this is not the most important point."

Max: In this context, mark is generally understood as land. It is true that it can also be understood in some contexts as "border country", or field. Please, check for instance the Norwegian and Swedish dictionaries, or Google:

In Swedish: mark -en -er = land, land area, terrain ...

In Norwegian: mark = land, territory / Example: "i skog og mark" = out in the country / villmark = wilderness / ødemark = wasteland ...

... Art Dominique, 8 August 2006

Ok, so you mistook Faravid for Fornjót. However, Fundinn Noregr says about Fornjót as follows:

"There was a king named Fornjot. He reigned over Gotland, which we now know as Finland and Kvenland."

You can check the "neutral" translation here. I very much doubt that this sentence can be used to say that Fornjót ruled over two nations, since the text is very convoluted and can originally have been almost anything. Also, another version of the saga completely downplays Fornjót's role here saying that he was just "a man" with no reference to Finland / Kvenland / Gotland, as you can see here.--Drieakko 04:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

And another thing, I have nothing to do with users appearing under IPs 130.234.75.183 and 217.30.179.130 nor have I ever used any other username in Wikipedia. --Drieakko 04:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I am not Drieakko and Drieakko is not me, although I applaud for Drieakko´s expertise. Finally we have got someone who can definitely thrash these national-romanticist fantasies.217.112.242.181 10:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

You are a known, proven and admitted abuser of Wikipedia and its rules. Why should we believe you this time around ?

Wikipedia is - in many ways - a roaming ground for dubious characters like you. Here you can freely and anonomously practice foul play, to push your personal believes and views. You were asked to provide sources in many ocasions. You refused. You asked why should you do our homework. Please do not worry. We have done our homework.

We provided distinguished sources. Mr. Mikkalai (another abuser of Wikipedia) finally stated, that nobody was to tamper with our well references and sourced Kven text, without first providing known and easily verifiable sources (such as known and respected historians, findings of science, etc.). Mr. Mikkalai then again fell under the spell of criminal elements. What does that go to show to us ? - - Wikipedians agains vandalism - - August 21, 2006 - -

If this was targeted at me, I'd appreciate some more clarification what an earth that was about. You are free to list any errors and mistakes in the article. Please do that. --Drieakko 18:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Kvenland was not called Kvenland in all languages, of course

Naturally, for instanse the country of Sweden is called by different names in different languages, Sverige by the Swedes themselves, and so on. Thus, the beginnig of the Kvenland text was quickly improved for now as follows:

Kvenland (a.k.a. Cwenland or Quenland) is an ancient name for an area/nation which today forms the territories of the modern day Northern Scandinavia, Finland and the extreme Northwestern Russia. Many references to it - by different spellings and names - can be found particularly from the 9th century up to the 13th century.

Historic Swedish, Russian and other sources talk about Kvenland by different names and spellings, whereas the term Kvenland is believed to thrive from the old Norse language and - accordingly - by that spelling (or close to that spelling) it has only therefore been used in the historic Norwegians and the Islandic sources.

Many historians believe Kvenland to have been a country of its own in the modern-day Northern Scandinavia and Fennoscandia which has been referred to as Kainuu or Kainuunmaa in the Finnish language. *** Another Wikipedia user's quick clearification ***