Talk:Blockchain

Are block chain designs based on the bitcoin protocol?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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N2e added the following text to the lead section:

... is this still true, in all cases, in 2016? The usage I see nowadays is more that a blockchain database is the more general case, and the specific bitcoin protocol is just one (perhaps, the first?) instance of a block chain database protocol.

My answer: According to reliable sources, the newest block chain designs are based on the original bitcoin concept and/or code published by Satoshi Nakamoto. It is a misunderstanding to think that because they add new functionality to the original concept, they are not based on it. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 21:08, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

I appreciate you directly addressing the matter here on the talk page. But I take some exception with the edit comment relative to the change you removed (which I had made) to the article. Also, I did not actually add the text to the lede section in the way you asserted, I added a hidden comment, to try to gain clarification, and to invite discussion.

I added the following hidden comment to the lede sentence, shown in bold text below to make it easier for all to see my addition. Note that, since the question I asked was a hidden comment, readers of the encyclopedia would not see the question, they would see only the {{clarify}} tag I added, no prose was changed in what the reader could see, except for the tag asking that the prose be clarified. It still needs clarified.

A block chain or blockchain is a distributed database, based on the bitcoin protocol,{{clarify|date=March 2016}}<!-- is this still true, in all cases, in 2016? The usage I see nowadays is more that a blockchain database is the more general case, and the specific bitcoin protocol is just one (perhaps, the first?) instance of a block chain database protocol. --> that maintains a continuously growing list of data records hardened against tampering and revision, even by its operators.

In my view, that prose still needs to be clarified in the lede sentence, or if the claim "based on the bitcoin protocol" is always and forever true, for all blockchain databases that could be conceived of in the way the term is ordinarily used in computer science, then it needs a citation that supports the claim.

For example, if it is the case, and I do not know that it is (that's why I asked the question), that all blockchain databases are "based on the bitcoin protocol", even then, the statement in the prose could be improved for clarity to the global audience who reads this article. For example, it could become "A block chain or blockchain is a distributed database, derived from the original bitcoin protocol of 2008, ...", or, "A block chain or blockchain is a distributed database that maintains a continuously growing list of data records hardened against tampering and revision, even by its operators. All blockchain databases today are derived from the original bitcoin protocol of 2008." Either one would be clearer than what the prose in the first sentence of the lede reads today.

So the sentence still needs clarified for readers. Cheers. N2e (talk) 04:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

N2e "if the claim ... is always and forever true" - I do neither think that sources claim that anything is "forever true", nor do I see such a claim in the article. The references present in the article confirm that the (newer or older) block chain designs are based on the original bitcoin concept and/or code published by Satoshi Nakamoto. That is the essence. To your proposed changes of the text: "derived from the original bitcoin protocol of 2008" - I do not see any clarification. The text just adds a year that does not look necessary, especially it does not clarify whether anything may be "forever true". What can be found in the existing sources is that, as opposed to the white paper published in 2008, bitcoin code is open source for anybody to see, copy, and derive from, originally published in 2009 and that the code is still evolving. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 06:38, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Let me say this a different way. First off, I used the words "always and forever true" to illustrate that the the statement in the current lede sentence is a strong statement ("A block chain or blockchain is a distributed database, based on the bitcoin protocol, ...". It is a broad statement that the scope of this article, which is about this thing called a blockchain database, "is based on the bitcoin protocol". The statement itself thus does not allow for blockchain databases that might be based on any other protocol. That seems a bit limiting to the more general concept of what a blockchain is, and would make this article really about "bitcoin protocol derived blockchains" rather than blockchains more generally. I think that is a mistake, and this article ought to be about blockchains more generally.

I'm going to step away from this discussion for a few days to allow other voices to enter the discussion. Don't think it will be helpful to have just the two of us discussing, and potentially talking past each other. Cheers. N2e (talk) 11:51, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

No one disputes that idea of a blockchain was introduced by Bitcoin. But the words 'based on bitcoin' could either mean this idea of the blockchain being introduced by Bitcoin (definitely true), or it could mean that the source code is explicitly based on one of the many codebases of Bitcoin source code (not always true). I changed the lede to say that Blockchain was 'introduced by Bitcoin'. Sanpitch (talk) 21:11, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Disagree 'Introduced by bitcoin' implies prior existence of 'blockchain' which is clearly an inaccurate statement. Blockchain by definition (bitcoin white paper) states in its abstract that the bitcoin network, of which came to be known as the blockchain in 2009, is a peer-to-peer network (of linked software capable of storing transaction data) that would not require a trust and concludes with 'We have proposed a system for electronic transactions without relying on trust.' (directly quoted) thus anything not meeting this criteria would not be a blockchain and anything meeting this criteria would be based on the blockchain's technology and thus bitcoin. Alternately, networks have been constructed based on the blockchains actual codebase, but not necessarily with any trust theory in mind at all. This would also be based on bitcoin regardless of the intention of its creator to overcome the 3rd party trust limitation since it is directly based off of the codebase itself. By theory or codebase, any system such as this would be based on bitcoin and the wording 'based on bitcoin' is accurate and in accordance with reliable resources. 'Based on bitcoin' is the best, most reliable, and accurate wording based on research and available material dating back to 2008 through 2016. (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:51, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Disagree Your idea that block chain is not based on bitcoin protocol contradicts the available sources. In case you introduce a new definition, anything is possible, but WP:NOR applies. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 21:53, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Anyone who disagrees with my characterization of the blockchain and bitcoin above (including my benign edit) and justifies it with "Your idea that block chain is not based on bitcoin protocol contradicts the available sources" should not be an editor of this page. I'm sure there's a Wikipedia standard that effectively says 'know your shit'. Sanpitch (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

A protocol is the specific way, in terms of procedure and communications, in which a thing works. It is not just the general idea. Therefore, a given blockchain is always based on the idea of a blockchain that was first developed by Bitcoin, but may or may not be based on the actual, specific Bitcoin protocol. That would be a very peculiar claim to make - and yet the article makes it. Ladislav Mecir repeatedly asserts that all blockchains are based on the "original bitcoin concept and/or code": well, which is it of the two? The ones that are based on the code are derived from the bitcoin protocol, but the ones that merely borrow the concept need not be. I trust reliable sources do not assert otherwise. LjL (talk) 01:32, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Let me also add that the citation you added that purportedly shows that "a blockchain" is based on the "bitcoin protocol" is flawed, for the simple reason that it really just refers to the bitcoin blockchain specifically, as it starts out by saying "A blockchain is a public ledger of all Bitcoin transactions that have ever been executed". Not by "all transactions in the relevant cryptocurrency"; by "all Bitcoin transactions". So that's all it's focusing on. Of course, Bitcoin itself is based on the Bitcoin protocol. LjL (talk) 01:44, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks LjL for the excellent comments and the revert you did on the article. It feels odd to have to go through such pain for a minor, benign edit. Sanpitch (talk) 02:49, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional contributions to the conversation Sanpitch and LjL. It seems that a consensus is emerging that this article is about more than merely the original bitcoin block chain, and is, indeed, about blockchain databases more generally. Moreover, block chain databases, in general, may or may not be based on the bitcoin protocol, even though we are all in violent agreement that the first block chain database ever was from bitcoin, and was, therefore, certainly based on the bitcoin protocol. Cheers. N2e (talk) 03:56, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Agree A consensus is clearly emerging to broaden the scope of this article to include alternative implementations of block chains not based on the Bitcoin protocol. See historical discussions where Satoshlong attempted to make similar changes and was blocked for it. Clearly WP:STONEWALLING taking place here, singlehandedly committed by Ladislav Mecir to limit the scope of this article to Bitcoin-derivative technology only. Alpacahats (talk) 14:02, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

A consensus not based on any reliable sources does not take precedence over a sourced and verified information: "Based on the Bitcoin protocol, the blockchain database is shared by all nodes participating in a system." Until any reliable source confirming otherwise becomes available, there is no dispute. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 10:38, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

The original, WP:STATUSQUO wording was based on informations coming from reliable sources. The current wording:

A block chain or blockchain is a distributed database, introduced in Bitcoin, that maintains a continuously-growing list of data records that each refer to previous items on this list and is thus hardened against tampering and revision.

is dubious, since:

• it is not true that a reference to previous items on the list is hardening the list against tampering and revision. Some links harden, some do not. For example, in case of bitcoin, a secure cryptographic hash is used to link blocks together. That adds safety, as opposed to other conceivable means of linking that may be significantly less safe.
• Also, these are not all means of hardening. Other means of hardening include the use of asymmetric cryptography. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 18:17, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

The consensus that has fairly broad support here is that block chain databases, in general, are not exclusively restricted to block chain database that are entirely based on the bitcoin protocol. That is not the same thing as a consensus saying that the current lede sentence is absolutely the best that can be done. One suggestion might be to start another Talk page section for your spedific proposal of what you think a better lede sentence might be.

But in this Talk page section, there is at least substantial support from other editors that the scope of this article is about more than merely the bitcoin blockchain. And that is an important intermediate step in discussing how we might make this article better, and is worth noting here in a reasonably clear way. Cheers. N2e (talk) 12:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

@Ladislav Mecir: even reliable sources, must be read in context, like everything in this world. The citation you insist on, the one saying "Based on the Bitcoin protocol, the blockchain database is shared by all nodes participating in a system.", is being read out of context, because as I already explained, if you look at the opening paragraph of the same source, it says "A blockchain is a public ledger of all Bitcoin transactions that have ever been executed": clearly, it is referring to the Bitcoin blockchain (the one containing all Bitcoin transactions), not really any other blockchains (which do not contain Bitcoin transactions, but other denominations).

All that the source is saying is that the Bitcoin blockchain is based on the Bitcoin protocol, which nobody ever doubted. I hope this time I have made myself clear. LjL (talk) 15:00, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that is a helpful explanation. Almost all of the earlier sources were talking about the bitcoin protocol, which is of course defines and sets up the bitcoin blockchain. It is the later sources, after the advent of the sorts of on-chain enhancements that are seen in blockchain v2.0 implementations that, might, plausibly explain the wider superset of all blockchains, now that blockchains are not tied to the bitcoin protocol. N2e (talk) 23:11, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

N2e wrote: "The consensus that has fairly broad support here is that block chain databases, in general, are not exclusively restricted to block chain database that are entirely based on the bitcoin protocol." - response: there was no such formulation as "exclusively restricted to block chain database that are entirely based on the bitcoin protocol", neither in the sources, nor in the article text. Such a formulation does not even make sense. Thus, any such "broad consensus" is just what it is: WP:OR. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 07:46, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

If, as you seem to say now, there was never any claim that all blockchains are restricted to being based on the bitcoin protocol, then we should not state that blockhains are something based on the bitcoin protocol in this article. It's that simple. I sense some selectivity in the arguments tackled on this page, though. LjL (talk) 21:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Ladislav, we get that you have made as assertion of WP:OR. But you have not gained consensus on your view. Several other editors have politely disagreed with your conclusion, including LjL and myself.

I, for one, am certainly willing to have you make a concrete proposal on wording or however you think would advance the project of improving the article, and then open a specific section to see if you can gain a consensus for your position. I would participate in such a discussion, as I imagine others would. But failing that, the consensus in this section is rather clear: blockchain databases (today, in 2016) are simply not exclusively related to blockchains that are based on the bitcoin protocol. The scope of the article is not as narrow as you suppose. N2e (talk) 15:04, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

N2e, the wording of the first paragraph of the lead that enjoys a large consensus and is supported by the sources is the WP:STATUSQUO wording that was a subject to discussion as can be found in the talk archives. As opposed to that, your so-called "broad consensus" wording is dubious and contradicting the sources. I mentioned it several times that your "exclusively related to blockchains that are based on the bitcoin protocol" is a straw man argument. First of all, there are no sources or formulations mentioning your "exclusively related to ..." What I know for sure is that there are sources claiming that the block chain is based on the bitcoin protocol. Unless you find any source contradicting this and stating that the block chain is not based on bitcoin protocol, you are out of luck with your purported "broad consensus". Both you and I know for sure that the wording you put to the lead is contradicting the available sources and that there is no consensus on the formulation you put in there. Since I propose a wording that does respect the sources, it is not me who is doing something wrong here. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 17:24, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

So you've got some work to do, since many other editors on this page have disagreed with you, and have used plicy-based resons to do so. N2e (talk) 19:11, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I am fine with the current wording in the lede, which seems accurate and properly summarizing. Claims of "status quo" are stale at this point. The status quo is what we have now. LjL (talk) 20:34, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

N2e, likewise many editors on this page agree with Ladislav Mecir, it seems apparent to me that even those trying to change wording agree that bitcoin and the original blockchain started the technology as it sits today, everything else has been based on its concept or code. The original white paper on bitcoin states both in abstract and summary that the primary function of the system is to provide transactions between parties without the requirement of a 3rd party trust (such as a financial system). That is its primary function of which it uses a variety of resources to accomplish. The current wording is misleading, the word "introduced" should be "originated from" or "based on" since "introduced" leads a reader to believe something existed first.. which it didn't and nobody can find proof otherwise. OnePercent

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

other uses

To the editors of this article: is this PBS NewsHour post of any interest ? --Jerome Potts (talk) 15:22, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect treatment of an opinion

In the "History" section, the text:

As of 2014, "Blockchain 2.0" was a term used in the distributed blockchain database field to distinguish between bitcoin as an asset and the "blockchain as a programmable distributed trust infrastructure" more generally, with additions of new scalable features of "on-chain utility and extensibility."

presents a personal opinion of a developer in the cited source as a fact. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 05:47, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Merge in decentralized autonomous organization

The information at decentralized autonomous organization is potentially better merged in as part of this article.Jonpatterns (talk) 13:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

• Happy for that if you want - just do it! ----Snowded ^TALK 13:29, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

• OPPOSE — there is no question that the two topics are related, in the sense that decentralized autonomous organizations are organizations that use blockchain databases to facilitate their existence. Had the info on DAOs been created as, say, a section or two or three of the Block chain (database) article, it would have been fine to leave it there until such time as it grew to some point and was perhaps split into an article of its own. But as it exists now, the DAO article was created by someone, and seems to me to meet WP:GNG, is reasonably well sourced for a "Start" class article (and one or two WikiProjects have rated it "C" class). So the only real way to get a community-wide consensus in favor of a merge would be through the WP:AfD process. That's my two cents on it. N2e (talk) 15:31, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
• OPPOSE — DAO can use other type of distributed database, not only blockchain. It can be the same as Ripple, for example. 0x0F (talk) 21:33, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
• OPPOSE — DAO is a theoretical construct which is only truly revolutionary thanks to the breakthroughs of the cryptocurrency community willingness to pilot new methods. That being said the computer science which is Ethereum|Blockchain|Database technology is more like your computer operating system and the DAO contracts are the suite of office software you need to type up a resume. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.228.251.56 (talk) 00:53, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Would distributed database be a better target? Jonpatterns (talk) 22:25, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm sure about the separate article, DAO is a particular thing like cryptocurrency. Database just a tool for building DAOs, no more. 0x0F (talk) 00:00, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

• OPPOSE - the blockchain is just one example of a certain type of decentralized structure. the term 'decentralized anonymous organization' is broader, and thus is does not make sense to merge the two 68.106.184.226 (talk) 02:39, 10 May 2016 (UTC)