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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by SineBot (talk | contribs) at 09:51, 12 July 2016 (Signing comment by 84.40.95.172 - "→Kutrigur Bulgars: new section"). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Kutrigurs under Attila

This article has several inconsistences.

1) "An interesting fact about the Kutrigurs is that, along with their counterpart the Utigurs, they formed the striking forces of Attila's Hunnic armies. After Attila's death, the larger part of the Kutrigurs returned to their homes in the Scythian plains."

This is obviously not an interesting fact, but pure nonsense, as Attila died at least about 100 years earlier in 453 and was long dead, when the Kutrigurs formed.

2) In the 'Utigur'-article, it is said: "In the mid 6th century some Utigur groups were conquered by the Eurasian Avars and became known as the Kutrigurs, while the remaining (eastern) portion retained the Utigur ethnicon." Obviously this means, the Kutrigurs were the western portion.

But: "The conquest of the easternmost Kutrigurs by Gokturk arrivals ..." But the eastern ones were Utigurs not Kutrigurs.

3) "The last of the Utigurs had settled in Pannonia (modern Syrmia) by April 677. The majority submitted to the Avar Kaghan, though some rebelled moving to Pelagonia under the leadership of Maurus (nicknamed Kuber meaning "rebel") ..." "Under the leadership of Kuber, another part of the Kutrigur tribe seems to have moved to Sirmium (Pannonia) and from there south to the Pelagonian plain." Now what? Utigurs or Kutrigurs?

Truchses (talk) 21:03, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Utigurs and Kutrigurs were tribes of Hunnic origin, later known as Bulgars. According to Romans historians, these two tribes formed the nucleus of the Hunnic Union in 4th century AD. The legend about Kerch marshes and the deer(stallion in some versions) is about the Kutrigurs, who returned home and told about the western lands to their relatives, Utigurs. The two tribes attacked the Goths together. The two names, Utigur and Kutrigur appear around 500 AD, some say Utigur and Kuturgur were grandsons of Attila, sons of his third son Ernak. Some historians think that Utigurs were the same people as Akatirs. Many historians consider the first two names in Bulgarian Prince List to be Attila and his son Ernak. [1]

Also their origin is not so unclear as it is usually assumed. Probably they were Yuezhi tribes - see article Huns, against Xiongnu. This is what is generally accepted among modern Bulgarian historians as Атанас Стаматов, Ж. Войников, Петър Голийски, Георги Владимиров, Цветелин Степанов, Тодор Чобанов and others.

Utigurs were eastern part, Kutrigurs - western.93.152.143.113 (talk) 05:55, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How exactly is Kutri- / Kotrag- derived from Toqur-?

In the article is mentioned that the name of the tribe comes (presumably) from *toqur ("nine" in Türkish), however, I don't get how this is possible? Is there a rule in Turkish languages, which governs such a shuffling of syllables? If not, has ever been found any source, in which the Kutrigurs were called Tokurgurs / Dokirgurs or anything of this sort, upon which one can build such a relation?

this articles are written by turkish manafs, they believe that Kutrigurs were Turks. Kutrigurs were Huns and they were one tribe, not nine. Search google books to find out who were they, WP is not reliable (unless turkish manafs are banned from editing), you can start from these books, they were deleted many times from this article.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8] [9][10][11][12] [13]

Again same IP sock (with adress in Sofia, Bulgaria) by blocked User:PavelStaykov. Those sources and statements were already discussed, and personal attack on other editors is not supported on Wikipedia. Your personal opinion and WP:OR is not supported on Wikipedia. If there's even a possibility Kutrigurs were Huns (and there's none evidence), then again Kutrigur name etymologically derives from Turkic since Huns spoke a Turkic language. However, you believe that Huns were Indo-Europeans (Yuezhi), which is a fringe theory already heard countless times since March 2015. So please stop spamming talk page walls with the same text over and over again. --Crovata (talk) 17:48, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Then stop spamming WP pages with turkish shit. If the Huns spoke turkish language is only a hypothesis based on Pritsak's analyses of a couple personal names. Even if we assume that Huns spoke turkic, which is far from proven, this doesn't make them automatically turkic tribes. Language != nationality. And as a side note, Huns had their own language, from which later Turks borrowed many words, even the word Turk is not turkish, it is tocharian and was used for the first time by the tocharian Usun's kings in the mid 5 century. Some scholars have explained the words connecting the Yuezhi 月氏 or the Kushans as coming from the Turkic languages, thus concluding that the language of the Kushans was from the Türkic language branch. This theory is inadequate, It has been suggested that “Suo 索” [sheak] is a transcription of “Sacae.” In other words, it may be possible that the ancestors of the Türks originally were kin of the Sacae. If this is true, it would not be difficult to understand why some words and titles connected with the Yuezhi 月氏 or the Kushans can be explaned by the Türkic languages. In the Rājataraṅgiṇī (I, 170) there is a reference to the fact that the Türkic ruler in Gandhāra claimed his ancestor was Kaniṣka, and maybe this is not merely boasting.[14]

And the proper name is Kutrigari - it means small people

Stop calling renowned academical scholars, and modern mainstream scientifical opinion a "turkish shit" (Huns, Hunnic language). No one cares what's your and every others editor personal opinion, what we care is citing reliable sources by academical scholars who specilized in specific related field. Minor opinions and fringe theories are not supported or given equal weight like mainstream opinion - the end. Wikipedia, like every normal encyclopedia, is edited according WP:NPOV principles, and if you have something against that, then stop disruptively editing Wikipedia and start writing a personal historical blog (and check What Wikipedia is not).--Crovata (talk) 21:49, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In that case you should consider moving to Turkish Wikipedia, but before that take a close look at this video, manaf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQd-eg4FyKo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.36.107.103 (talk) 00:19, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Roman historians Themistius(317-390), Claudian(370-404), and later Procopius(500-560) called the Huns Massagetae.[15] The Huns were called Massagetae also by Ambrose(340-397), Ausonius(310-394), Synesius(373–414), Zacharias Rhetor(465-535), Belisarius(500-565), Evagrius Scholasticus(6th century) and others. Alexander Cunningham, B.S. Dahiya(1980, 23) and Edgar Knobloch(2001, 15) identify Massagetae with the Great Yuezhi: Da Yuezhi -> Ta-Yue-ti(Great Lunar Race) -> Ta-Gweti -> Massa-Getae. Dahiya wrote about the Massagetae and Thyssagetae : "These Guti people had two divisions, the Ta-Yue-Che and Siao-Yue-Che, exactly corresponding to the Massagetae and Thyssagetae of Herodotus ... " (Dahiya 1980, 23). Thyssagetae, who are known as the Lesser Getae, correspond with the Xiao Yuezhi, meaning Lesser Yuezhi.[16] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.254.217.110 (talk) 12:51, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attacks on other editors and WP:FRINGE theories, or through them manipulate with due and undue WP:WEIGHT of major and very minor viewpoints, are not welcome on Wikipedia.--Crovata (talk) 03:40, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.promacedonia.org/en/sr/
  2. ^ "The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe", Hyun Jin Kim, p. 141, :"Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs were in all likelihood identical with the Bulgars", p. 256 :" Thus in our sources the names Kutrigur, Bulgar and Hun are used interchangeably and refer in all probability not to separate groups but one group." https://books.google.hr/books?id=jCpncXFzoFgC&q=utigurs#v=onepage&q=Kutrigurs&f=false
  3. ^ The Age of Justinian, J. A. S. Evans, page 340, https://books.google.bg/books?id=jjSDAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA255&dq=kutrigurs&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=kutrigur&f=false
  4. ^ Scythia minor, Mihail Zahariade, pages 32-33, https://books.google.bg/books?id=29FoAAAAMAAJ&q=kutrigurs&dq=kutrigurs&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y
  5. ^ "The Empire of the Steppes", René Grousset, page 79: " Other Hun clans survived north of the Black Sea in two hordes : the Kutrigur Huns, who led a nomadic life northwest of the of Azov and the Ututgur or Utrigur Huns, whose haunts were by the mouth of the Don." https://books.google.hr/books?id=CHzGvqRbV_IC&pg=PA79&dq=kutrigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBmoVChMIvfOPuuqTyQIVxQcsCh1bWwlR#v=onepage&q=kutrigur&f=false
  6. ^ "The Byzantine Empire", Donald MacGillivray Nicol, King's College, University of London, http://history-world.org/Byzantines.htm
  7. ^ Great Walls and Linear Barriers, Peter Spring, page 199:"In the Huns split into The Onogurs, Utigurs and Kotrigurs", https://books.google.hr/books?id=OfmxBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA199&dq=utigurs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCEQ6AEwATgoahUKEwia2MPL75zHAhVEhywKHcRYDHg#v=onepage&q=utigurs&f=false
  8. ^ "Catastrophe: An Investigation into the Origins of the Modern World", David Keys, "...a barberian people, the Kutrigur Huns...", https://books.google.bg/books?id=wpGN4ekwHgYC&pg=PT51&dq=kutrigurs&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kutrigur&f=false
  9. ^ "Early Medieval Europe", Roger Collins, page 206 :"...Utigur and Kutrigur Bulgars...", https://books.google.bg/books?id=ZukcBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA206&dq=kutrigur&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kutrigur&f=false
  10. ^ "Encyclopedia of the Byzantine Empire", Jennifer Lawler, page 298: "In 551, the Kutrigur Bulgars raided the Balkans"
  11. ^ "A History of Byzantium", Timothy E. Gregory, p. 151 :"in 559 the Kutrigur Huns crossed the Danube and pressed as far south as Thermopylae in Greece", https://books.google.bg/books?id=gXCl9P0vKS4C&pg=PA151&dq=kutrigur&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kutrigur&f=fals
  12. ^ "The New Encyclopædia Britannica", p. 383 "After the Kutrigur Bulgar attack ...", https://books.google.bg/books?id=oEguAAAAMAAJ&q=kutrigur&dq=kutrigur&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y
  13. ^ Maenchen-Helfen, Otto J. (1973). "Chapter IX. Language: 5. Iranian names". The World of the Huns: Studies in Their History and Culture. University of California Press. p. 392. ISBN 9780520015968.
  14. ^ page 15 http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp212_kushan_guishuang.pdf
  15. ^ "The World of the Huns", Otto Maenchen-Helfen, page 4:"But considering that Themistius, Claudian, and later Procopius called the Huns Massagetae,..."
  16. ^ SINO-PLATONIC PAPERS, Number 127 October, 2003, page 22-24, http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp127_getes.pdf

Kutrigur Bulgars

Kutrigurs were Huns and were related to the Bulgars.[1][2][3][4][5][6]

Kutrigurs from Byzantine sources were identified with Kuci/Kidar Bulgars[7] and David Marshall Lang identified them with the Kidarites.[8] Kidarites appeared in Kazakhstan in 4th century and they originated from the Little Yuezhi.[9] Some of them inherited Kushan empire and were also called little Kushans.[10] [11] The little Yuezhi remained in north China and were included in the Xiongnu confederation under the name Chieh people. Sometimes they are also referred as Jie people.[12] Their number were not small at all - between 184 AD and 221 AD there was a serious revolt of the little Yuezhi in north China, Gansu.[13] Under pressure of Rouran Khaganate they started migration at the beginning of 4th century AD toward Kazakhstan. In 349 AD according to Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen 200 000 Chieh were slain.[14] This was the reason for their final migration from Gansu, China and the ultimate appearance of the Huns in Europe in 370 AD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.40.95.172 (talk) 09:51, 12 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ https://books.google.bg/books?id=mcf4CgAAQBAJ&pg=PT127&dq=kutrigur+huns&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kutrigur%20huns&f=false
  2. ^ https://books.google.bg/books?id=CHzGvqRbV_IC&pg=PA79&dq=kutrigur+huns&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kutrigur%20huns&f=false
  3. ^ https://books.google.bg/books?id=CrUdgzSICxcC&pg=PA392&dq=kutrigur+huns&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kutrigur%20huns&f=false
  4. ^ https://books.google.bg/books?id=KIFJiOCSYc8C&pg=PA151&dq=kutrigur+huns&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kutrigur%20huns&f=false
  5. ^ https://books.google.bg/books?id=ZukcBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA206&dq=kutrigur+bulgars&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kutrigur%20bulgars&f=false
  6. ^ https://books.google.bg/books?id=sEWeCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA296&dq=kutrigur+bulgars&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kutrigur%20bulgars&f=false
  7. ^ http://promacedonia.org/vz1a/vz1a_a_5.html
  8. ^ The Bulgarians: from pagan times to the Ottoman conquest(1976), David Marshall Lang, https://books.google.bg/books/about/The_Bulgarians.html?id=8EppAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y
  9. ^ A NOTE ON KIDARA AND THE KIDARITES, WILLIAM SAMOLIN, Central Asiatic Journal Vol. 2, No. 4 (1956), pp. 295 – 297, „The Yueh-chih origin of Kidara is clearly established...“, https://www.jstor.org/stable/41926398?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
  10. ^ COINS OF THE TOCHARI, KUSHÂNS, OR YUE-TI, A. Cunningham, стр. 279, http://www.jstor.org/stable/42680025?seq=12#page_scan_tab_contents
  11. ^ THE KIDARITE KINGDOM IN CENTRAL ASIA, E. V. Zeimal, стр. 132: „The Pei-shih (Chapters 7, 13) mentions that the Kidarites, whom it refers to as the Ta Yüeh-chih (Lesser Yüeh-chih), have money made of gold and silver. This information is confirmed by the evidence of their coins. The first comprehensive attempt to categorize and interpret Kidarite coins was undertaken by Cunningham.“, http://en.unesco.org/silkroad/sites/silkroad/files/knowledge-bank-article/vol_III%20silk%20road_the%20kidarite%20kingdom%20in%20central%20asia.pdf
  12. ^ page 201 https://books.google.bg/books?redir_esc=y&hl=bg&id=J8J8AgAAQBAJ&q=Jie#v=snippet&q=Jie&f=false
  13. ^ The Cambridge History of Early Inner Asia, Volume 1, Denis Sinor, стр. 170, https://books.google.bg/books?id=ST6TRNuWmHsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=cranial+deformation+Yueh-Chih&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjApt2UmLrMAhWM8RQKHdvQBr04ChDoAQg9MAc#v=onepage&q=Yueh%20Chih&f=false
  14. ^ The World of the Huns, Otto Maenchen-Helfen, стр. 372-375, https://books.google.bg/books?id=CrUdgzSICxcC&pg=PA367&lpg=PA367&dq=Kenkol+River&source=bl&ots=KIZSHZyaJZ&sig=NixP5N00kD3QfzxQgebZCE-HF9w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjc6JSIibrMAhXJaxQKHXDgBEMQ6AEIQjAI#v=onepage&q=Kenkol%20River&f=false
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