Talk:MDMA/Archive 1

I changed "psychoactive substance" to "synthetic drug" because it didn't say anywhere in the article that ecstasy is synthetic.

Moved to talk:

"Despite popular belief, the drug is not very deadly: the LD50 is 100mg/kg or roughly 70 standard quality clandestine pills. (LD50 is the amount of a substance at which half of those will take this amount will die.)

The dangers today is largely believed to be of a more mental aspect. Severe depression is regarded as the most evident."

Note that this could be taken to mean that 25% of those who take 35 pills or approximately 2% of those who take three pills will die. However, there is no requirement that the LD50 scale linearly - it could be 0.005% at three pills or 40% - there's no way to tell from the LD50 alone. Also note that the LD50 tells nothing about other side effects - a hypothetical drug might have an LD50 of 75 pills, but 80% of people who take even one pill are rendered permanently parapalegic.

What about other types of "extacsy," such as religious or sexual? F. Lee Horn

If they're worthy of an encyclopedia article, we have articles called "religious ecstasy" or "sexual ecstasy", and move the contents of this to "ecstasy drug" or similar. We then make up a "pointer page" on the parent to this page pointing to the two or three articles. However, we should probably keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. --Robert Merkel

I realize this, although I seem to see quite a few articles which are not much more than dictionary style definitions. Thank you for the pointers on creating the articles, though. : ) F. Lee Horn

This should really be under MDMA.

There's more to be said about the effects of the drug; it's been called an "empathogen" because of the way it breaks down barriers between people (this is why Shulgin and others were using it in psychotherapy). Also, towards the end of the article it talks about serotonin receptors, but nowhere is it mentioned that MDMA is an SSRI. XTC was another street name. (These are mostly notes to myself; when I get time, and if nobody beats me to it, I'll make these changes...)

Does that mean if I get a prescription for SSRIs from my doctor, I can take enough of them and get ecstacsy-like effects? :) Also, does ecstacsy have any risk of causing serotonin syndrome? -- SJK

Well the dosage most people take in street E is way in excess of the usual pharmacological dosage of things like anti-depression drugs. I assume weird stuff would happen if you OD'd on prescription drugs but its not a course I'd recommend. Very few of the E related deaths have been due to overdose, those that weren't ascribed to external factors (too much/little water etc) where usually put down as allergic reactions. The little experimental evidence so far suggests that long term excessive generation of seratonin causes burn out with low seratonin levels when not under the effect of the drug.

I love shulgin...

SSRIs do half of what MDMA does. They inhibit the reuptake of serotonin to the recepters. MDMA does that as well as flooding your brain with serotonin. The result is lots of serotonin in your brain, and your brain is unable to "reuptake" it (i.e. get rid of extra). If you take a bunch of SSRIs you get sick, dizzy, nauseated, lightheaded, with excessive yawning. (I did it when I was 14 to see what would happen. ha.)

Many dangers associated with "ecstacy" are because pressed pills people buy on the street are almost always cut with other substances- amphetamines, MDA, ketamine, caffeine, etc. There are websites where you can look up your pill (the color and mark on it) and see a chemical analysis of its content. There are also pill-testing kits you can buy online.
Sometimes they have no MDMA at all, often substituting MDA, which has very similar effects, but is more likely to induce running around telling everyone you love them. Pure MDMA has a mellow, calm, more rational feeling than pressed pills, which make you feel speedy and overly affectionate. parallax

It's been reported in some sources that long- (and possibly medium-) term ecstasy use can lead to depression and especially unnatural paranoia, which I don't see mentioned here. Anyone have any reliable information? --Delirium 07:42 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Not really. There are very few proper studies on Ecstasy (and many other illeagal/non-prescription drugs) and its long term effects. Those that are often contridict or are mis-reported in drug education campaigns. However this is not to say that such effects do not occur but the body of eveidence is low compared to other drugs.

A lot of information that users use is anecdotal or hypothesis of experienced professionsals.

Decent research is a general problem with all recreational drugs unfortunatly. Alex

I'm rephrasing the "enitre months supply" because as far as I can tell no research that points to the amount dumped, and it will be subjective and related to dose... Alex

Hey, I just wanted to make a note here: I'm going to remove the phrase "notwithstanding the tremendous amount of FUD propagated through the media by well-financed, politically motivated anti-drug groups (including some scientists)." due to its inherently POV nature. Any problems?

MDMA is said to have been used during world war II on the Russian Front by the Germans

In light of the recent section renaming does anyone think it would be worth splitting of the Chemistry (and possibly pharmacoligical) bits into an article on MDMA leaving this article to deal with the recreational effects and legal issues? - Alex

Is it a hallucinogen or not?

I've noticed a few back-and-forth edits over whether pure MDMA is a hallucinogen or not, and I don't think this bodes well for the veracity of the article. Can someone get hard, verified, backed up with citations information on this? - Korpios 17:50, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Saftey advice?

I'm minded to remove this again. Apart from some objections to the advice I think its best to point people at the relevant drug information or even advocacy based sites rather than the fluctuating medium of Wikipedia. Anyone got any good reasons why it should stay? - Alex 26 Jul 2003

The information on the effects of the drug are relevant for inclusion in an encyclopedia. While the framing may be inappropriate or the information might should be subsumed elsewhere in the article, that information must remain in the article. Disregarding the fact that well-formed articles are rather stable, what does the "fluctuating medium" of Wikipedia have to do with it? This is no reason why this information should be removed from the article, any more than information in other subjects of scientific study should be removed. - Centrx 01:31, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I feel the "safety" information should be included, although it should be rephrased more neutrally in terms of potential effects, e.g., what might occur if certain steps are (or are not) taken when using the drug according to some. It should not read as a "How-To" guide. - Korpios 05:02, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Preparation

I'm not sure if information regarding preparation, usually from Safrole, is allowed or appropriate. - Anonymous

Definitely both allowed and appropriate. prat 23:20, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Allowable but worth it? If you want to maybe as a seperate article, although I suspect linking to existing sites would be a better course of action. See PHIKAL for proper synthesis instructions. Alex

Re: RTI

should this even be here at all with such specificity and unconfirmedness

There is no doubt who the supplier was. Only their alleged mistake is unconfirmed.

I meant the entire section. I don't think a narrative is appropriate. These aren't news stories, rather facts. If this information would not be appropriate here (disregarding accuracy) twenty years in the future, then it should not be here at all. - Centrx 20:02, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Intro risk section

The order should be

Real overdoses (direct effect of the compound, therefore first)
Dehydration (common indirect effect)
Water intoxication (this is rather a less common curiosity)

Cacycle 12:10, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Water Intoxication is the #1 cause of death related to Ecstacy in the USA (other than taking a fatal chemical that isnt MDMA). Every single reported case of death by OD in the USA has been from it. Do the research, I have. Alkivar 17:28, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

See also Leah_Betts and Anna_Wood both of which were reported as "overdoses" but were in fact Water intoxication/Hyponatremia Alkivar 01:29, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

while i'm at it... got any cases that link to conclusive overdose of 100% pure MDMA? I called the FDA and even they can't point to a specific case that was caused by pure MDMA, and not a combination of other drugs. Alkivar 04:21, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There is a scientific paper, Tissue concentrations of MDMA and its metabolite MDA in three fatal cases of overdose (Forensic Sci Int. 2003 Aug 12;135(2):110-4) which discusses 25 fatalities relating to MDMA in Spain. Three of these were studied in-depth, and in a toxicity screen one of the three was free of all other screened drugs of abuse including alcohol (the other two studied also showed signs of benzodiazepine use). So there is a possibility of a relatively 'pure' fatal overdose. However, you are right to say that usually an ecstasy overdose is really a 'polydrug' overdose.

Also, you are right to say that water intoxication is the #1 cause of problems. The same paper I mention says water intoxication / hyponatremia may be compounded by profuse drug-induced diaphoresis (sweat is very rich in sodium) and MDMA inhibition of vasopressin (preventing kidneys from flushing out excess water). Hence, hyponatremia is a real risk even if over-dosers don't drink a huge amount of water; it's not just a "curiosity." -- FirstPrinciples 07:46, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Alkivar: Sorry, I haven't studied the cases like you did. Maybe you could add some more details and numbers into a new 'side effects' or 'fatalities' section of the main article? Maybe we should replace the misleading term water intoxification by something like electrolyte disregulation. Cacycle 15:08, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I happen to like the phrase "water intoxification" its a laymans terminology and it does get the point across clearly. If you were to walk up to a random person and use "water intoxification" and "electrolyte disregulation" people would have somewhat of a clue with the first and minimal with the other. besides for a true medical term there is an entry at hyponatremia. Alkivar 01:14, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)