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July 8

Portuguese phonology

What makes Portuguese different from Spanish or Italian that /kʷ/ and /ɡʷ/ are considered phonemes in the first? Obviously, this is based on one linguist's description, but do these labialized versions also exist in Spanish and Italian? --Explosivo (talk) 00:17, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

See wikt:quarenta#Portuguese and wikt:cuarenta#Spanish and wikt:quaranta#Italian.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:34, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

I mean the difference between labialized /k/, /g/ and a sequence of /k/, /g/ followed by /enwiki/w/. Only the article about Portuguese phonology mentions the labialized consonants as phonemes. Spelling says nothing about pronunciation and IPA transcriptions don't necessarily always consider these subtle distinctions. --Explosivo (talk) 18:53, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Syllabification

Comment by blocked User:139.255.65.211
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Syllabification of Indonesian word "Penginapan", using spaces between syllables? 139.193.145.109 (talk) 01:42, 8 July 2016 (UTC) Yes please. Sorry, what was the question? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 07:51, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

The Belgian composer, Karel Goeyvaerts

Hello. I am looking for the exact pronouncing form of Karel Goeyvaerts, the Belgian composer's name. It seems that the name is Flemish originally. Could someone please help me? Thank you in advance. — Hamid Hassani (talk) 12:39, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

You can hear the last name pronounced at the beginning of this video: [1] 184.147.117.244 (talk) 18:53, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. :) Hamid Hassani (talk) 05:29, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Pommelion

Hi, I'm reading the book "Master and Commander" and encountered the word "pommelion." It may be a nautical or ordnance term. I tried to find it's definition, but am unable to do so either in a dictionary or searching the net. Is it an appropriate request to ask you to find it's definition and add it to your database? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.101.90 (talk) 15:58, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Please provide the context, such as the sentence in which it appears. StuRat (talk) 16:02, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Indeed it's a navy term [2]. 80.44.163.165 (talk) 16:08, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary says it is equivalent to pommel, in the sense of the knob at the rear end of a cannon. (Similar to Cascabel (artillery): "Gunnery. Formerly the knob or pommel at the rear end of a cannon; now the whole rear part behind the base ring, including knob and base.")

1769 W. Falconer Universal Dict. Marine at Breeching, The..cascabel of the gun..sailors call the pomiglion, or pummelion.

1794 D. Steel Elements & Pract. Rigging & Seamanship I. 232 It is formed with a cunt-splice in the middle, which passes over thepomiglion, or cascabel, of the gun.

1837 G. G. Macdougall tr. W. A. Graah E. Coast Greenland 74 The entire length of the gun, from muzzle to pommillion, was sixtyfive inches and a half.

The other citations are in fact from the Master and Commander series. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 18:06, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Amusingly, the "cunt-splice" (mentioned above) was Bowdlerised in the 19th century to "cut splice". Alansplodge (talk) 00:26, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

the most imaginative question tags ever : ) by Mr.khaled Zalat

Homework questions
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
} hello everybody I have some sentences that need appropriate question tags let's be imaginative I got to go right now,..........? [slang] It ain't easy,.........? [slang] I suggest he be awarded,..........? I wish he were a king,...........? I suggest we buy them,..........? I wish we were kings,..........? we better go right now,.......? [slang] There's some people there,.........? [non-standard] the team was co-operative,...........? the team played well,.............? you go there right now,.........? one of us hit john,..............? one of you/them/the boys/the girls,..........? [each answer is needed separately] 50000 $ seemed to be a lot of money,...........? thou spokest too much,..............? only can he do this when I am here,........? he 's to come tonight,..........? he 's got to go,......? There he is,.........? Who will get the best marks, will be rewarded,................? There goes the bus,..........? he is too weak to carry this,..........? he been there,................? [dialect, non-standard] Here we are,..........? one should be creative,............? none of the students was/were clever,........? [each answer is needed separately] Tell him nothing,........? don't say nothing as you always do,.......? a number of people protested,.........? somw/half of us don't understand,............? [each answer is needed separately] The majority/minority of people agreed,.......? [each answer is needed separately] Neither of my brothers is/are married,........? more than one is coming,...........? Noone has refused nothing,............? john says my sister will marry Jennifer,.......? he is tired because he has been playing,......? neihter his friends nor he played well,......? Ted as well as his kids survived the accident,.......? a child must be raised well,.........? he used only to come here,..........? Not only Jasmin but also her friends succeeded,.........? Either Charles or his friends will travel,..........? It nearly hit my eye,.......? It doesn't mean Smith is any better,........? They/people say he is clever,...........? There seemed to be no doubt as to it,........? It's Johnny that insulted me,..........? It's no use crying,.......? you could go now,......? you could buy a new one,..........? God is Merciful,..........? My classmate is absent,......? one of the books is lost,........? It's said he is clever,..........? Believe it or not.Louis is abroad,........? none is clever,...........? She's gone now,........? This is my heroine,..........? Blessed be the one who has good offspring,......? We are sad he is not here,.......? he used not to be lonely,........? How beautiful he is,...........? He had a car ,......? (didn't/hadn't) Are both choices fine? he is believed to have travelled,.......? (isn't/didn't) Are both choices fine? Rumour has it that he is married,............? let's do it,.........? (shall/shan't) Are both choices fine? As it seems, he is noisy,...........? He's done over there,.........? It's her who hit me,.............? He added, "Let alone another three poor children,..........? " Disappointed is what he feels,..........? I ate only a biscuit,..........? Not even a boy will go,.........? Whover broke the window,will have to fix it,..........? I won't marry, believe it or not,.........? If only he were clever,......? Not many people attended,..........? Many a man fell,..........? [A very good question, I think :) ] We not only played but also had fun,.........? Noone saw him except for a man,...............? The question turned to be more difficult than he thought,..........? I went nowhere,.............? His progeny caused him to commit suicide ,............? Not another boy did it,..........? I didn't meet him but I wrote to him,........? you'd best run,.........? We have done with it,...........? The movie has nothing to do with the novel,.........? He has plenty of time but no money,.........? One of my sisters is ill,.......? Let's not argue,.........? Don't let's argue,..........? Not all the boys arrived,...........? You had better say nothing,..........? It's I who complain,...........? Problem solved,...........? [notes/spoken] There, no doubt, is no good food,.......? I don't think there are no good players,..........? He is clever, I think,......? They won't survive even you,........? What annoys me is that she is harsh,........? Long live the king,............? It was lost not stolen,...........? Nothing or no one will prevent me,........? Their mastermind is wicked,.......? There we sat,.........? I always did and never will,.........? Spain won the cup,..........? You have no idea,...........? A man like you shouldn't do this,..........? Charles, a man like you shouldn't do this,..........? Charles, someone like you shouldn't do this,..........? I as well as John did that,..........? Charles as well as Jack did that,.........? H must be no more than two years old,............? To be elected is joyful,............? What makes me nervous is girls,...........? None but a clever student will succeed,..........? None of the news made my day,.........? a number of workers were fired,..........? Many are clever,...........? Neither Charles nor I am clever,..........? Fourty percent of the profits seemed good,..........? Fourty percent of the area was flooded,..........? He or she is clever,.........? Man has made a lot of achievements over centuries,...........? The number of people mentioned survived,............? Thanks for being patient please, these questions are of great importance to me and It took me a lot of time to think of them so if you find them good points, please, share your answers with us. Thanks in advance : ) Finally, I'd like to mention something important : 1*-what is the question tag for modals of deduction [must/may/might/can/could] for example : -he must have been clever, (wasn't/mustn't) he? -he must have kids,(doesn't/mustn't/hasn't [for possession] ) 2*what is the question tag for a sentence beginning with "introductory-there" ? can we use the real subject in the question tag? 3* "digression" choose the correct answer and support your answer with evidence if possible ............> If he (won-had won)after he played the match, I'd have been happy with him 4* "There is a boy and some girls ." why didn't we just say "There are" because of "and" ?! sorry for this long subject but all I can do is to seek answers : )Best wishes and thanks in advance and please provide evidence when possible.The first person to comment is definitely a hero : ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.166.176.158 (talk) 18:32, 8 July 2016 (UTC) This looks like HOMEWORK to me—e.g., "choose the correct answer and support your answer with evidence if possible". Sorry, we don't answer homework questions. Loraof (talk) 19:20, 8 July 2016 (UTC) I'm charitable enough to say: it looks like you're meant to fill in the blanks with phrases like "isn't it?" and "didn't you?"; but many of these examples do not fit such a construction. —Tamfang (talk) 08:39, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Although this is most likely homework (I had to do such exercices when I was learning English), it is very interesting, because these are all weird sentences where it is really not obvious that there is a good question tag that could work, which throws into question that the sentence is grammatical at all, although it does seem to be :-) --Lgriot (talk) 15:44, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Translation in Revelation 6:8: death or plague?

In Revelation 6:8, referring to the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the Greek word θανάτω [3], a form of Thanatos, is translated as "death" by many Biblical translations (e.g. KJV, D-R) but translated as "plague" by many others (e.g. NIV, NASB) [4]. I've always understood "Thanatos" to simply mean "death," not "plague," and am confused by why so many Biblical translations would instead use "plague" here. Is there some Hebrew source older than the Greek that instead supports the "plague" translation? Can people with more expertise in Biblical scholarship, Greek, and Hebrew comment on the validity of each of the two translations? —SeekingAnswers (reply) 19:17, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

There is no Hebrew version of the book of Revelation in the Hebrew Bible, because the New Testament post-dates the canon of the Hebrew writings. Short answer: the Greek version was the original. Akld guy (talk) 20:15, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

I know. I was referring to older (including possibly extracanonical) sources that might have inspired/influenced parts of the Revelation text and which the translators might have consulted. —SeekingAnswers (reply) 21:24, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

First, there is a forged "Aramaic" version of the New Testament by the Jews for Jesus, which is not hard to get your hands on.

But, θανάτω is simply one of the ways of writing "by death" (Original θανάτου ) and when listed among other means of death in Revelations it seems odd--but the other means are by things like starvation and violence, never disease. So the meaning seems indeed to be by plague, and the association of chloros--yellow green--seems (compare blue/flavus) to fit with plague: [5] Yet θᾰνάτῳ is mentioned 15 times in the Greek testament as the optative "he/she be put to death". We need more context, as usual. μηδείς (talk) 21:44, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

This verse is thought to contain an allusion to Ezekiel 14:21, where the corresponding Hebrew word is דֶבֶר, which does indeed mean plague. - Lindert (talk) 21:52, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, @Lindert:. One of my greatest regrets is that it was too hard to schedule Hebrew as an undergrad. Do you mean the word you gave in Hebraic letters is usually (or at least in this case) translated as death by plague, @Lindert:rather than just by "death"? μηδείς (talk) 03:04, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

That Hebrew word (pronounced DEvər) also appears in the Book of Exodus as the fifth Plague of Egypt. It refers to a deadly epidemic disease, usually translated "pestilence" or "plague." Search of the Hebrew word through an on-line concordance (of Mechon Mamre) yielded only Leviticus 26:25, "...and I will send the pestilence among you..." being part of a long litany of punishments not strictly equivalent to death. -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:40, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I know this isn't a language question, but is there any consensus whether this "plague" is what we now call plague (i.e. Y. Pestis)? Our article says there's evidence that it goes back 5000 years, so it seems possible from that point of view, but I'd think there might be more known than that (say, look at the Biblical account and compare symptoms and epidemiology; that sort of thing). --Trovatore (talk) 03:39, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

I can't say whether there's a consensus, but the standard modern Hebrew lexicon of the Old Testament HALOT specifically translates dever (דֶבֶר) as bubonic plague. Other (less recent) lexicons translate it more generally as plague, pestilence, murrain etc. The cognate Arabic word 'dabr' means death, and the Septuagint also frequently translates the Hebrew word as θάνατος (death). - Lindert (talk) 08:18, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

July 9

"ː" as a distinguishing feature in English phonology

My phonology education was very sketchy, and this may explain why I ask the question below.

Vowel length#Short and long vowels in English has a short subsection in which it's alleged (without any sources) that "In Australian English, there is contrastive vowel length in closed syllables between long and short /e æ a/ and sometimes /ɪ/" (my emphasis). No mention here of US or British English.

Of course, English isn't limited to the three nations Oz, US, Britain, and US and British English aren't limited to GA and RP; but there are only so many hours in the day, and therefore I'll look primarily at GA and RP.

There's quite a lot of material in Received Pronunciation#Vowels, but nothing that I notice about any contrast. A table there lists the following phonemes with the lengthening quasi-colon: /iː/, /ɜː/, /uː/, /ɔː/, /ɑː/; but it doesn't list even one of these without the quasi-colon. So there seems to be no phonemic distinction.

International Phonetic Alphabet chart for English dialects has the diaphonemes /ɑː/, /ɔː/, /ɜːr/, /uː/, /juː/, /ɑːr/, /ɔːr/; but it doesn't have any one of these without the quasi-colon. It does have both /iː/ and /i/; but its examples for the former are "see" and "meat", and for the latter "city". Seems to me that the distinction is an automatic result of ±stress. Is the word /ˈsɪtiː/ phonotactically possible in English; and if so, could it contrast with /ˈsɪti/ ("city")? If not, the pair look like mere allophones to me.

In General American#Pure vowels, we learn that there are contrasting English diaphonemes, /iː/ and /i/, and that in General American these are realized as [iː] and [i(ː)]. But it's pretty much the same as above: [i] is exemplified by /i/ in unstressed syllables of disyllabic words; [iː] by /i/ in monosyllabic stressed words. Mere allophones again, I think.

What have I misunderstood? -- Hoary (talk) 13:49, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Bad-lad split may address some of your queries. Valiantis (talk) 20:23, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Valiantis. It's most interesting. It does suggest that /ː/ is a possibility in English -- but curiously, it does so for /æː/, which isn't mentioned above. It's within an article on the pronunciation of "a", and it does say a lot about what it refers to as /ɑː/, which is mentioned above. However, it has no mention of /ɑ/ in Modern English. If a language lacks /ɑ/, how can it meaningfully have /ɑː/? (Why isn't the one phoneme "/ɑː/" simply written /ɑ/?)

The article Australian English phonology does indeed claim both regular and lengthened /e æ a/. The article tells us: "There exist pairs of long and short vowels with overlapping vowel quality giving Australian English phonemic length distinction, which is unusual amongst the various dialects of English", and sources this claim to Robert Mannell, "Impressionistic Studies of Australian English Phonetics". But when I look at the latter (admittedly before my second coffee of the day), I don't see that Mannell says any such thing.

Any other phonologists in the house? (Ƶ§œš¹?) -- Hoary (talk) 23:23, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I will not go much into details as I myself as well may do not understand well or remember all the theory, but much confusion or misunderstanding comes from the transcription. When Daniel Jones firstly devised the IPA for English in the beginning of the 20th century he actually implied directly the length contrast. This has been called the quantitative analysis. But later the views about the phonology of English (or more precisely of the RP variety) have been revised and the analysis was changed to quantitative-qualitative. American phonologists, though, mostly prefer a plain qualitative analysis, ignoring the length as non-phonemic, as you have mentioned right. There is a short description of that evolution as well as a comparative table I've once made. (I think this section somewhat out of place, because the IPA for English is not a respelling, and its history and overview might deserve its own article.)--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 04:14, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Любослов. That's really interesting -- and within an article I'd never imagined would exist. This does explain a lot about historical influences on the phonemic representation of English, but it doesn't start to explain why people have clung on to it. According to my reading of a little table in that article, Jones thought that the vowels in "cod" and "cord" differed only in length, as did those in "rid" and "reed". I can't speak for the English of his day, but for the standard US and British English of our day, he's plain wrong. I mean, the mouth is doing things that differ in ways other than mere time. (Even if he got it wrong for the English of his day, I'm reluctant to knock him. He was a pioneer, and pioneers can't be expected to get everything right.) Suppose, though, that Jones had realized that the vowels in (say) "rid" and "reed" were qualitatively different. I think he'd be right to say they're quantitatively different too, and therefore to use a colon for the latter. After all, he was aiming for a phonetic script. However, a century later, while we're using "/    /", we require distinguishing features, no? (Or am I even more confused than I realize?) -- Hoary (talk) 04:39, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

@Hoary: I've oversimplified a little bit. And I indeed do not remember all the details as I read Jones' works quite a long time ago, but now I've read them again and found out that he actually knew the difference when he described the vowels verbally.[6][7] But he still tended not to signify the distinction in his transcription. Either he did it for simplicity or he did not consider quantity as much as important. Anyway, as we know now, this has been reviewed and both the quantity and the quality are considered important and transcribed accordingly. American linguists, however, may and often ignore the length sign, you can see that, for example, in the IPA Handbook [8].

So if I were to try to answer you question I'd say some important thresholds:

1) Both quantity and the quality are important in producing and distincting the English vowels.

2) Both of them may fluctuate according to the environment, stress, temp of speech, accent and so on. It is hard to describe those variations in short. The length is more unstable.

3) In general, and this is most important, the English vowel system, may be described as asymmetric. There are no or few minimal pairs that could be differentiated only by vowel length, but the quality is always accompanied by the quality, they are interrelated. The English vowels cannot be structured in some sort of symmetric grid like, say, it is reconstructed for Classical Latin (Vulgar Latin was another story), or some other languages. However, I would say there are few languages where a change in length is not accompanied by some sort of change in articulation. For example, in German or Hungarian long vowels tend to be tenser, however, if I remember right there is a /ɛ/-/ɛː/ contrast in German (but in some dialects /eː/ and /ɛː/ are merged, hence only the contrast between /ɛ/ and /eː/ is left ). But in Finnish the contrast is only in length.

What I said concerns largely RP and GA. Some accents may indeed not observe the quantity-quality interrelation. Scottish English is very remarkable in that respect, where the Scottish Vowel Length Rule is in effect, and in other accents there are splits like "bad-lad" mentioned above.

I'm not sure if I've answered your question, but I hope it might be helpful.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 21:28, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Lüboslóv, that's most interesting. (If I'd had you as the teacher of my [sole] phonology course, I wouldn't have dozed off during the lectures.) Jones seems to have been a lot more perceptive and skilled than I'd have dared hope. I'd never heard of or even imagined the existence of the Scottish vowel length rule. And even for "more standard" (?) English, where minimal-pair contrasts of length don't exist, I do accept that there are differences of timing. (And I find it easy to imagine that, for example, if a recording of "beat" were altered so that the vowel were shortened but otherwise unchanged, the result could sound like "bit".)

Ladefoged's piece about (one Californian speaker of) US English is particularly informative. But it's also particularly odd. Here's a rather randomly chosen quotation from it:

When intervocalic and before an unstressed vowel, as in 'city, vicinity', [t] is a voiced flap, resembling [ɾ].

(My emphasis.) I expect to see "/t/" instead. Ladefoged's notation is odd, or he's little concerned with phonemes, or I understand even less than I suppose. But if he is little concerned with phonemic distinctions, then of course it's hardly surprising that he adds details that a speaker of English never has to worry about (vowels aside, this would include, say, ±aspiration for [p]).

Please don't spend too much time on my question(s), but I do greatly appreciate your explanations. -- Hoary (talk) 02:21, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

• As an American who took linguistics 201/202 for majors in the 1980's and who already spoke English, French, German and Spanish to lesser or greater degrees, as well as a little of my moribund family Rusyn language, we were tought that all phonemic transliterations differed in quality for American English, while phonetic transcriptions were either diphthongs or differed in length. Hence:

iy, ih, ey, eh, æ, ah, ough, o, ooh, yew

/i/ /ɪ/ /e/ /ɛ/ /æ/ /a/ /ɔ/ /o/ /ʊ/ /(j)u/

/i:/ /ɪ/ /e:/ /ɛ/ /æ/ /a:/ /ɔ/ /o:/ /ʊ/ /(j)u:/

Except that, of course, my dialet differs between tense and lax /æ/.

μηδείς (talk) 00:24, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

July 10

Pronunciation of "taco"

What is the correct pronunciation of the Mexican dish "taco"? Is is tah-co, tack-o or tuck-o? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:36, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

According to Dictionary.com, [tah-koh] is the most commonly used when speaking in English. --Lgriot (talk) 15:28, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Here's a TV ad ca. 1979 where they say it multiple times.[9] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:43, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:32, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

• Yo quiero Taco Bell with a proper Spanish accent (BB's ad has an English, aspirated t, which sounds funny in Spanish). μηδείς (talk) 21:35, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

  Interesting that you would call that a Spanish accent. It sounds Mexican to me, or at least what the creators thought would sound Mexican to Americans, the latter distinction being too fine for my limited expertise. But I guess I know what you meant. --Trovatore (talk) 04:13, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

I am not quite sure what you are getting at, but basically the Chihuahua sounds like a native speaker of Spanish (and I have been mistaken as generic or native Mexican speaker quite a few times, to the point where I was once asked "De donde en Oaxaca viene?" But my point is that the dog has standard unaspirated stops, while the ad BB provided is accurate for American, but to Spanish speakers has an obvious English accent.

One might consider that in standard German and English, word-initial /p,t,k/ have a slight h sound, while this is uncommon in most other languages, such as French and Spanish, Russian or Japanese, which lack aspiration, or languages like Hindi and isiZulu where aspiration or its lack turn two sequences of sounds into entirely different words.

Here's an excellent, short (<10 min) video, that explains aspiration, and actually makes quite clear, explicitly, the difference between /taco/ in Spanish and American (yay!) and British (ho hum) sp^heech. μηδείς (talk) 00:42, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Does he sound like a native speaker of Spanish from Spain? I wouldn't have said so, based on my experience of watching Spanish movies on Netflix. He has a "singsong" quality that I associate with Mexican Spanish. But I could certainly be wrong. --Trovatore (talk) 00:54, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

You are correct, he definitely has a Mexican accent. I had it described to me by a Mexican woman of Mestizo origin as el hablar jalado de los vatos "the drawn-out speech of the guys" and it (as well as dropping final esses) are characteristics of male speech. I spent the last 20 minutes trying to find anything about this on the web, but there's little I could find. μηδείς (talk) 17:13, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

@Trovatore:, to make sure I have been clear, when I was referring to the dog having a Spanish accent, as opposed to BB's example, I was talking about a contrast between the consonants in English and Spanish. But within the Spanish Language, the dog's vowels are Mexican (male, not upper-class), in comparison to vowels in Iberian Spanish (so far as I am familiar with it). So one contrast was English/Spanish, and the other was Spain/Mexico. μηδείς (talk) 21:34, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Hmm, yes, that's kind of what I thought you were saying, but it still strikes me as an odd way to put it. I would be taken aback, in any context, to hear someone say I was using an "English accent", even when speaking another language.

On another note, about the dropping of the esses, I thought they actually turned into [h]? And I don't think it's only men who do it; I hear it from the Latina women on Orange is the New Black. Or are these two separate phenomena, some people who turn <s> into [h] and others who drop it entirely? --Trovatore (talk) 21:46, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, as an American, when I have had the misfortune (although at least he tries) of hearing Dubya speak Spanish, I have always thought that he has an English accent, not an American one. Both GA and RP use [t^h], not [t] as their phone for the /t/ phpneme. μηδείς (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

To my American ear, the T sounds the same from the 1970s ad and the 2000s ad. However, to answer the OP strictly, of his choices "tah-co" is the best one. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:31, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

There is indeed a difference, but it's not a difference that matters so far as meaning in English or Spanish. It just gives that "he's got an accent" feeling in an extended dialog. But other languages, like Hindi and isiZulu have an essential contrast between the [t^h] of English in words like taco and the Spanish /tako/, as opposed to ['t^ha-k^hoʊ].

This is a technical matter that really requires the knowledge of at least two (preferably 3 or more) languages and 12 credit hours of general linguistics. It's an acquired skill, like the ability to describe music, or identify a monocot vs a dicot at sight.

If, Bugs, you listen closely to the dog, it should sound almost like he is saying "dako bel". I am curious if you have ever heard the term "bendeho", meaning "asshole"? μηδείς (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Not to be confused with bendreth. --Trovatore (talk) 02:07, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

As Medeis says, there is a difference. Aspirating Spanish stops will give you away as a non-native speaker every time. The difference exists in English too, but with no contrasting minimal pairs so we hear them as the same phoneme unless we're trained otherwise. For instance, in "tub" the /t/ is [tʰ] while in "stub" the /t/ is [t]. And, Medeis, I don't mean to be one, but it's "pendejo". ;) --William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 01:23, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

We agree completely, WilliamThweatt, my use of the spelling "bendejo" was solely because when I worked for years in a restaurant, half of whose staff was Oaxacan, and the rest from the US East Coast, the Americans adopted pinche, flaca, guey, mota, verga, vato and various other words, but no one would believe me that the word was "pendejo" and not "bendejo" because they were unfamiliar with the difference of aspiration, and identified the lack of aspiration with the voiced English /b/.

How it was that the Americans got "pinche" right, I don't know, but I never asked them to spell it. Perhaps because it was used in every sentence? Hehehe. Nevertheless, "bendejo" was improperly said with a very strongly voiced consonant, /b/.

In any case, imagine the upset, when I had to explain to the lead waitress that "la vejote" didn't meant "the boss" but was closer to "the hag". I really miss those days. Thatcher was PM. I had various attractive offers of heterosexual marriage.... μηδείς (talk) 23:44, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Malay: Range of meanings of "Tupai"

According to the German Wikipedia, the Malay term Tupai is used both for Tree squirrels and Tree shrews. While this appears to be basically true, it is probably a little more complicated: id:Tupai is about tree shrews, id:Bajing and ms:Tupai about squirrels as a whole. Online dictionaries usually translate both "Tupai" and "Bajing" as "squirrel". So what is the spectrespectrum of meanings? Concrete questions:

1. Is it accurate to say that in modern Malaysian, the term "Tupai" is used for squirrels only, but in Indonesian for tree shrews only?
2. Is it possible to restrict the usage of "Tupai" for squirrels to certain subgroups of squirrels, or does it include all of them?
3. Is there a way to circumscribe the original spectre of meanings, like "small mammal living in the trees"?

--KnightMove (talk) 14:55, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't help you with Malay or Indonesian, but this being the language desk, maybe you wouldn't mind me pointing out that spectre and spectrum are quite distinct words in English :-) --Trovatore (talk) 05:21, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. In fact, I knew this already, but it seems that my cerebral vocabulary storage was seeing spooks. :-) Thank you. --KnightMove (talk) 08:46, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Google's pronunciation alphabet

What is the pronunciation alphabet that Google uses for its definitions called? I have never seen it before, it is quite hard to make out, and so I am thinking that, if it is not easy to read, they might as well use IPA instead.

See for example concubine which gives: /ˈkäNGkyəˌbīn/

If they were using some English alphabet-friendly mechanism like dictionary.com concubine [kong-kyuh-bahyn], I would understand, but I am puzzled by Google's choice. --Lgriot (talk) 15:24, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

According to this, and the way I would say it, it's more like "KONK-you-bine". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:47, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Agreed, although I prefer IPA, I'd use BB's respelling. Google's looks like it should be KANK-yuh-bean. μηδείς (talk) 21:15, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I am asking the name of the "alphabet" or system that google uses for pronunciation guidance. (I know how to pronounce that word) --Lgriot (talk) 16:09, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

I haven't read it yet, but the answer might be in Google Dictionary. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:28, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Lgriot, I don't know that the system has a specific name, but such systems are discussed at Pronunciation respelling for English#Traditional respelling systems. A number of such systems have been used in various dictionaries, especially American ones, differing a bit in the diacritics used and the manner of indicating stress. (Without doing any further investigation beyond your concubine example, I'll say that the Google system looks pretty similar to that used in the New Oxford American Dictionary.) Deor (talk) 16:29, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

One suggestion in this forum thread: English Language & Usage Stack Exchange - What phonetic notation is Google dictionary using? is a Pronunciation respelling for English system, possibly that used by the New Oxford American Dictionary (sorry User:Deor, I typed this without reading your post above properly).Alansplodge (talk) 20:24, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you all. --Lgriot (talk) 20:32, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Resolved

@Lgriot: Google Dictionary says Google uses Oxford dictionaries since 2010 and their respelling system can be seen here.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 23:04, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

"Lola" and Language.

(For the purpose of this question...)I'm David. If I say

• I'm glad I'm an engineer, and so is Mike.

Which of these is the proper interpretation of the second part of the sentence.

1. Mike is glad that David is an engineer.
2. Mike is glad that Mike is an engineer.
3. Mike is an engineer.
4. David is glad that Mike is also an engineer.

Also, would it be different without the comma after engineer? Yes, this is in regards to the lyrics of Lola (song).Naraht (talk) 23:54, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

I think they're all possible meanings. At first I thought meaning 1 was not possible, but now I realize it is. --Trovatore (talk) 23:57, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

I only hazily remember "Lola", which I'll put aside. ¶ For me, (1), (2) and (4). ¶ Because (2) is permissible, (3) of course can be inferred. However, this doesn't answer the question. Instead, you're asking for the (sic) proper interpretation of the second part of the sentence; and no, for me (3) definitely isn't one. (I'm very surprised that it's possible for Trovatore.) -- Hoary (talk) 01:55, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "the proper interpretation" of the second part of the sentence. It is multiply ambiguous. Some of the readings are more likely than others, and some of them are context dependent. This remains true with or without a comma (though the likelihood of the options may change. --ColinFine (talk) 09:27, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Alternative (3) does not allow to deduce that Mike is an engineer. If you want to say that you could rephrase it as

I'm glad I'm an engineer. Mike is also an engineer.

If you want to say that Mike is an engineer and glad of that fact you could write

I'm glad I'm an engineer. Mike is also an engineer and glad that he is.

Alternative (4) is impossible. I see no ambiguity in the sentence at all. Maybe if we could see the lyrics or hear the song we could judge if that is what the lyricist intended to say. I just googled the lyric and there's nothing about this at all. 86.168.123.201 (talk) 11:24, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

C'mon Stanmore, aren't you familiar with The Kinks' ending lines of Lola? "But I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man, And so is Lola." Of course, the questioner is asking about this construction in general, not only in this particular song. -- ToE 13:30, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Because of its controversial nature Ray Davies left these lyrics deliberately vague. However, the nature of the song escaped BBC censorship except for two words: they objected to the trademarked "Coca Cola" and insisted it was substituted with "cherry cola". --TammyMoet (talk) 16:27, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, by 1970 the allusion would not have worried the censors. In 1967 Arnold Layne by Pink Floyd was banned - but only by a single pirate radio station. 86.168.123.201 (talk) 18:16, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

It's funny to hear of a pirate radio station suddenly concerned about ethics. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:23, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

It might not be all that easy to find words that rhyme with "Lola". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:28, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Can we agree that the form violates at least one Gricean maxim? —Tamfang (talk) 23:10, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

July 11

Plebian and plebeian

Could you please explain the difference between these two words, with a couple of examples of usage.

I've looked at other site explanations, and I still don't understand. Something about noun/adjective, but, it's very confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.193.222 (talk) 23:08, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

This indicates the noun and adjective are spelled the same way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} ~~carrots→ 23:46, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

I have never considered the spelling, but the American (academic) pronunciation is /plə-'bi-ən/, not /'plɛ-bi-ən/. That is, pluh-BEE-uhn, never PLEE/PLEH-bee-uhn. I am not sure the normal American usage makes much sense in the face of Latin phonology. μηδείς (talk) 00:55, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I think "plebian" is simply an error, or at best a rarely used alternate spelling. It's not listed in most of the online dictionaries available through www.onelook.com; if you search for it in the OED Online, it redirects you to "plebeian", where "plebian" is listed as a "now rare" spelling. --69.159.60.163 (talk) 04:11, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary (second edition, 2001) gives three noun and three adjective uses. There is also the rare verb "plebify". "Plebian" is not listed. 194.66.226.95 (talk) 09:29, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

WHAAOE plebeian. 86.168.123.201 (talk) 13:14, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

July 12

Hebrew verb question

Forgive me, I'm just starting to learn Hebrew verbs. Why is it that lilmod takes a-forms in the future tense (elmad, nilmad, etc.), whereas other pa'al verbs like lishmor and lichtov take o-forms (eshmor, nishmor, echtov, nichtov, etc.)? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 17:09, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

[10] --81.159.79.64 (talk) 19:21, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) On the page you linked to it says: "This verb is conjugated as a stative verb in the future tense and imperative." Stative verbs in the imperfect (future tense) have a patach (short a) as a stem vowel. For example, יִגדַל yigdal ('he will grow', from the stem גדל) and not יִגדֹל yigdol. Check out e.g this page if you want to learn more about stative verbs. - Lindert (talk) 19:27, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

There are a handful of pa'al verbs that aren't stative, but do still have yif'al future tense; לרכוב lirkov, ללבוש lilboš, etc. --217.140.96.140 (talk) 20:39, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

July 13

'count' is 'counting place'?

Does 'count' mean 'counting place' in the following sentence?

   Three weeks after polling day, by which time the overseas 
   and service votes had been returned, I went to the election 
   count at Sleaford.---Margaret Thatcher, The Path to Power, 
   p.46.

123.221.73.147 (talk) 03:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)dengen

I'd interpret "election count" as referring to an event, not a place. --72.78.149.18 (talk) 05:01, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

But an event that takes places at a certain place. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:38, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

I think "went" is being used in the sense of "attend" as in "I went to Harvard" or "I went to the party". The idea isn't so much one of travelling to and arriving at a destination, but attending an event. "The election count" is a thing that is happening, like "a crab feed" or "the Wilson memorial (definition 2)". So I would interpret it as 72.78.149.18 has: she went to (attended) the election count (event, not place).--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 07:27, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

She still had to physically go to a specific place to witness the event. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:35, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Anyone who uses the verb "go" is going to a place, but in the example "I went to Harvard" you are not going to an event. If you go somewhere it may or may not be for the purpose of attending an event. In this case, Maggie went (presumably to Sleaford Town Hall) specifically to either participate in or observe the event. 86.168.123.201 (talk) 09:50, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Anyone who uses the verb "go" is going to a place, -- I can go on and on about this, without moving from my chair. --217.140.96.140 (talk) 11:06, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Maybe not! This has to be the 1945 general election - the only one where the count was delayed because of the overseas service vote. Margaret Roberts did support the conservative candidate. However, the constituency was Grantham, and the count would probably have been in Grantham. There is an indication here - http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/100817 - that the conservative candidate (who didn't win the seat) had his electoral office in Sleaford - so it may be that Margaret went to help in that office on the day of the count, rather than actually being −present at the count itself. Wymspen (talk) 11:18, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

"like we did" vs "like what we did"

"like what we did" grates on me - as in "We'll do a neat job, just like what we did next door". A web search shows that it is very frequently used though, even on a Grammar blog. Are both constructs grammatically correct? If so is there a preference or some subtle nuance that I'm missing? -- Q Chris (talk) 14:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

There are three possibilities which you may be confusing: He sang like what I did last week; this is wrong, because the first clause uses a verb, but no object, so "what" doesn't refer to anything; in the site which you link to, When it comes to exploiting text, it is like what we did last week about the ‘’bang bang’’ song. is correct because the the "what" is referring to the thing that we did last week (the sentence would not work without the "what"). Your own example is somewhere in the middle; "what" could be taken to refer to the job, which would be fine, or to the doing the job, which would not. Henry^Flower 16:05, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

It's very similar to the "than what" misconstruction often heard in these parts. Djokovic was beaten by an unseeded player - "Yes, but he's still a better player than what that other guy is". The "what" is superfluous. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:08, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

In plain, ungrating Merickan, "We'll do a neat job, just like what we did next door" is "We'll do a neat job, just like that which we did next door". But the original "We'll do a neat job, just like what we did next door" is proper (Southren) Appalachian. μηδείς (talk) 22:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with "like what we did". "What we did" is a noun clause, as you can see in constructions like "What we did was to solve the problem" where it is the subject of the verb. "Like" is a preposition, so a noun clause can be its object. On the other hand, "like we did" is a disputed usage. Here "like" is being used as a conjunction, and traditionalists would say that this is not correct and you have to say "as we did". (I am not one of them.) --69.159.60.163 (talk) 04:15, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

The word "like" means "similar to". I don't see anything wrong with the construction "similar to what we did ", but "similar to we did" sounds sloppy. "As we did" is what one would expect to see, however Chambers Dictionary notes that use of "like" to mean "as" or "as if" is Shakespearean and now non - standard. 86.168.123.201 (talk) 10:30, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Japanese translation help

Hello. I need to know if タイニーエレファントパレード translates to any of the song titles in Ska Para Toujou; track listing here:[11]. I know that it translates to something like "Tiny Elephant Parade", as an approximation of "Baby Elephant Walk" -- but some of the track titles aren't in English. Thanks, --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:A073:98E5:BA6B:E905 (talk) 20:29, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Update: according to Google translate, none of the titles are even vaguely similar; therefore, I'll remove said entry from article. If somebody with experience with Japanese disagrees, feel free to undo my deletion. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:3994:3C44:6154:DBD2 (talk) 23:07, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Keeanga? Yamahtta?

In what language are the two words/names (Keeanga, Yamahtta) in the title either native, or meaningful?

From what language or languages have they been transcribed?

Is there an on-line dictionary for this language or these languages, given I only have dictionaries for [[[Hausa]] and ISIZulu, which exclude these words. FYI, I am proficient in isiZulu and a native English speaker. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 22:18, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Presumed context: Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor is an assistant professor at the Center for African American Studies at Princeton University and member of the editorial board of the International Socialist Review. —Tamfang (talk) 03:04, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Having worked in the Congo, and knowing how most African languages were written down phonetically using the Latin alphabet, I would expect to see Kianga, or Nkianga - but not the -ee-. Yamahtta looks more Japanese - though I am familiar with Nyama as a good African word. I have also observed a tendency among African-Americans to adopt African sounding names, which do not always come from one particular African language, and sometimes have rather idiosyncratic spellings (which matches the other American tradition of taking traditional European names and messing about with the spelling). Wymspen (talk) 08:17, 14 July 2016 (UTC)