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July 13

'count' is 'counting place'?

Does 'count' mean 'counting place' in the following sentence? 

   Three weeks after polling day, by which time the overseas 
   and service votes had been returned, I went to the election 
   count at Sleaford.---Margaret Thatcher, The Path to Power, 
   p.46.

123.221.73.147 (talk) 03:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)dengen[reply]

I'd interpret "election count" as referring to an event, not a place. --72.78.149.18 (talk) 05:01, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But an event that takes places at a certain place. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 05:38, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think "went" is being used in the sense of "attend" as in "I went to Harvard" or "I went to the party". The idea isn't so much one of travelling to and arriving at a destination, but attending an event. "The election count" is a thing that is happening, like "a crab feed" or "the Wilson memorial (definition 2)". So I would interpret it as 72.78.149.18 has: she went to (attended) the election count (event, not place).--William Thweatt TalkContribs 07:27, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
She still had to physically go to a specific place to witness the event. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 08:35, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone who uses the verb "go" is going to a place, but in the example "I went to Harvard" you are not going to an event. If you go somewhere it may or may not be for the purpose of attending an event. In this case, Maggie went (presumably to Sleaford Town Hall) specifically to either participate in or observe the event. 86.168.123.201 (talk) 09:50, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone who uses the verb "go" is going to a place, -- I can go on and on about this, without moving from my chair. --217.140.96.140 (talk) 11:06, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe not! This has to be the 1945 general election - the only one where the count was delayed because of the overseas service vote. Margaret Roberts did support the conservative candidate. However, the constituency was Grantham, and the count would probably have been in Grantham. There is an indication here - http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/100817 - that the conservative candidate (who didn't win the seat) had his electoral office in Sleaford - so it may be that Margaret went to help in that office on the day of the count, rather than actually being −present at the count itself. Wymspen (talk) 11:18, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know for sure where the count was held, but it's quite likely it was in Sleaford, as that was the headquarters of Kesteven County Council. Warofdreams talk 15:54, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, a verb as basic as "go" combines with prepositions in true Germanic fashion to gain many additional meanings. It is also one of the "helper" verbs in the formation of tenses, e.g. "I am going to be more forceful about this". 86.168.123.201 (talk) 11:31, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"like we did" vs "like what we did"

"like what we did" grates on me - as in "We'll do a neat job, just like what we did next door". A web search shows that it is very frequently used though, even on a Grammar blog. Are both constructs grammatically correct? If so is there a preference or some subtle nuance that I'm missing? -- Q Chris (talk) 14:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are three possibilities which you may be confusing: He sang like what I did last week; this is wrong, because the first clause uses a verb, but no object, so "what" doesn't refer to anything; in the site which you link to, When it comes to exploiting text, it is like what we did last week about the ‘’bang bang’’ song. is correct because the the "what" is referring to the thing that we did last week (the sentence would not work without the "what"). Your own example is somewhere in the middle; "what" could be taken to refer to the job, which would be fine, or to the doing the job, which would not. HenryFlower 16:05, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's very similar to the "than what" misconstruction often heard in these parts. Djokovic was beaten by an unseeded player - "Yes, but he's still a better player than what that other guy is". The "what" is superfluous. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:08, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In plain, ungrating Merickan, "We'll do a neat job, just like what we did next door" is "We'll do a neat job, just like that which we did next door". But the original "We'll do a neat job, just like what we did next door" is proper (Southren) Appalachian. μηδείς (talk) 22:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing wrong with "like what we did". "What we did" is a noun clause, as you can see in constructions like "What we did was to solve the problem" where it is the subject of the verb. "Like" is a preposition, so a noun clause can be its object. On the other hand, "like we did" is a disputed usage. Here "like" is being used as a conjunction, and traditionalists would say that this is not correct and you have to say "as we did". (I am not one of them.) --69.159.60.163 (talk) 04:15, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The word "like" means "similar to". I don't see anything wrong with the construction "similar to what we did ", but "similar to we did" sounds sloppy. "As we did" is what one would expect to see, however Chambers Dictionary notes that use of "like" to mean "as" or "as if" is Shakespearean and now non - standard. 86.168.123.201 (talk) 10:30, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Like" means "similar to" when it is a preposition. When used to mean "as", it is a conjunction. --69.159.60.163 (talk) 09:42, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese translation help

Resolved
 – 19:03, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Hello. I need to know if タイニーエレファントパレード translates to any of the song titles in Ska Para Toujou; track listing here:[1]. I know that it translates to something like "Tiny Elephant Parade", as an approximation of "Baby Elephant Walk" -- but some of the track titles aren't in English. Thanks, --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:A073:98E5:BA6B:E905 (talk) 20:29, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Update: according to Google translate, none of the titles are even vaguely similar; therefore, I'll remove said entry from article. If somebody with experience with Japanese disagrees, feel free to undo my deletion. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:3994:3C44:6154:DBD2 (talk) 23:07, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It says "Tiny Elephant Parade", spelled out in Katakana, in a close approximation to English - the same way that an English name such as "McDonalds" is written as "Ma-Ku-Do-Na-Ru-Do" - マクドナルド
It's literally "Ta-I-Nii-E-Re-Fa-N-To-Pa-Re-Do"
81.168.94.85 (talk) 14:37, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Or, since we don't usually hyphenate and capitalize every syllable in romanizing Japanese, tainīerefantoparēdo. —Tamfang (talk) 20:01, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The track "Baby Elephant Walk" is called 子象の行進 (or in Katakana, ベイビー・エレファント・ウォーク - literally Baby Elephant Walk). However, that Japanese article, in the section on cover-versions, says that the Tokyo Ska Paradise Orchestra did a cover version of it on an album in 1990 where it was called "March of baby elephant (Tiny Elephant Parade)" - the first part being a rough translation, the second part is spelled out in Katakana. This part;
また、東京スカパラダイスオーケストラが、1990年のアルバム、「スカパラ登場」で「仔象の行進（タイニー・エレファント・パレード）」としてカバーした。
Rougly, "Additionally, the Tokyo Ska Paradise Orchestra, on the 1990 album ja:スカパラ登場 ("Sukapara appearance" - I don't know what that really means) - covered it ona track called "march of young elephant (Tiny Elephant Parade)".
81.168.94.85 (talk) 14:52, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If I follow, Tokyo Ska Paradise Orchestra covered the song, but not on the Ska Para Toujou album, correct? For now, I'll just undo my deletion. (unless you'd like to try and tackle this). --OP, dynamic IP:2606:A000:4C0C:E200:A99B:8185:FE40:CECC (talk) 02:09, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This thread is confusing me, but Ska Para Toujou is what 81.168.94.85 translated as "Sukapara appearance". Toujou in this context is probably better translated as "debut". It's their first album. Mancini's "Baby Elephant Walk" (as kozō no kōshin: kozō=elephant child, no='s, kōshin=march/parade) is track #4 of that album according to the jawiki article on the album. "Kozou No Kousin", from your first link, is a variant romanization of the same Japanese title. According to the jawiki article on the Mancini song, they covered that song on that album under the name "kozō no kōshin (tainī erefanto parēdo)". Probably that is the full title+subtitle of the track. Why they re-translated the title to English instead of using the original English title is beyond me. -- BenRG (talk) 07:14, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thank you for clarifying. Since Japan WP is not a suitable source for citation, I'll just leave the entry there, with cn tag. --OP:2606:A000:4C0C:E200:A99B:8185:FE40:CECC (talk) 19:03, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keeanga? Yamahtta?

In what language are the two words/names (Keeanga, Yamahtta) in the title either native, or meaningful?

From what language or languages have they been transcribed?

Is there an on-line dictionary for this language or these languages, given I only have dictionaries for Hausa and isiZulu, which exclude these words. FYI, I am semi-proficient in isiZulu and a native English speaker. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 22:18, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Having worked in the Congo, and knowing how most African languages were written down phonetically using the Latin alphabet, I would expect to see Kianga, or Nkianga - but not the -ee-. Yamahtta looks more Japanese - though I am familiar with Nyama as a good African word. I have also observed a tendency among African-Americans to adopt African sounding names, which do not always come from one particular African language, and sometimes have rather idiosyncratic spellings (which matches the other American tradition of taking traditional European names and messing about with the spelling). Wymspen (talk) 08:17, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention the tradition of messing about with Native names. The British Empire, having made a mess of American and Indian names, got its act together in the Scramble for Africa and adopted a systematic approach to spelling! —Tamfang (talk) 05:48, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Yamada" is a common Japanese family name, like Smith. And like Smyth, it can be transliterated in different ways. So it probably stems from that. 86.20.193.222 (talk) 16:41, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • A websearch will quickly show that these two words, as spelled, are the forenames of a living person. Medeis assures me that this datum is irrelevant in context and Medeis is an honorable entity. —Tamfang (talk) 19:57, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I don't mind people being aware of that fact, Redbeard, but it is the names themselves which interest me, and that person should not be dragged in to this. I once met a Nepalese taxi driver, and asked him if he missed Nepal. I deduced this solely from his name (which is on the license in NYC, and was obviously Indic) and by his appearance. He was shocked and told me I was "wise and learnèd", but I think he was moreso than I. μηδείς (talk) 01:16, 15 July 2016 (UTC) [reply]
If not for what I know about the bearer, I would not dismiss the possibility of a misspelling from Japanese. —Tamfang (talk) 05:48, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

July 14

Tsk, tsk

Syllabic consonant refers to English tsk, tsk and gives an IPA transcription — [ǀǀ]. And ǀ is a dental click. I've always pronounced it as if it were tisk; is mine a rare spelling pronunciation, or is it common to some extent, either in America or elsewhere? Nyttend (talk) 13:39, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(US) I don't say it myself, but have exclusively heard it as "tisk". StuRat (talk) 13:42, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(UK) I myself have always used the dental click, usually with three or four iterations – in my experience it's common in the UK – and also say both "tisk tisk" and "tut tut" as (now) conscious and ironic spelling pronunciations. I first encountered both in childhood reading, and did not then connect them with the dental click as their spelling suggests rather different pronunciations, and so assumed they were independent expressions. I suspect this pattern is widespread although not necessarily usual. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.123.26.60 (talk) 14:17, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, reading through the spelling pronunciation article just now, I noted that tsk tsk is given as an example. Nyttend (talk) 14:55, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Get out your Wizard of Oz DVD and go to where the foursome arrives at the Emerald City. The guard says to read the notice. They point out that the notice is missing. He utters a number of those "dental clicks", which we would probably write as "tsk". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:54, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Tisk" is a spelling pronunciation, but not particularly uncommon. William Safire says when you use the interjection, as a sign of sympathy, it's a inspirated dental click, but when you refer to the sound, or when you use it sarcastically, you pronounce it as a word, "tisk".[2] But I've heard plenty of people pronounce the interjection with the vowel. CodeTalker (talk) 23:45, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In isiZulu, the consonant c actually stands for this sound, and is found syllable initially. (That is, it does not stand alone in normal words, but precedes a vowel, which does not occur in non-click languages) The elegant guide to San rock art here demonstrates the c, x (giddyup) and q (bottle-pop) click sounds found in the Nguni languages of which Zulu and Xhosa are members. μηδείς (talk) 01:07, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tut tut! is the usual transcription on the British side of the pond; Wiktionary gives the same IPA as quoted above. Example: "'Tut, tut!' said Mr Lorry; 'what is this despondency in the brave little breast?...'", from A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. Alansplodge (talk) 17:36, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

July 17

Douaouda

Can I get an IPA pronunciation of this city. DTLHS (talk) 18:13, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I can only give you the guidance that this is a French transcription of an Arabic name, and "ou" normally stands for [ʊ] post-vocalically and [u] otherwise. Arabic words are usually stressed on the penultimate, unless the final syllable is heavy, which here it is not. So [du'aʊ-da] (doo-OW-da) would be expected. But this is an educated guess at best. Here is the Arabic article, which I cannot read https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/دواودة
μηδείς (talk) 19:58, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Arabic phonology doesn't permit vowel sequences, so this is most likely [du'waw-da] in Arabic. On the other hand, this name is probably of Berber origins, and I haven't a clue what the Berber pronunciation could be. --51.9.188.30 (talk) 21:10, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if there's a French ref desk? I am sure someone there could help. I'm not disagreeing about the rules against vowel sequences, the same exists in (the unrelated) isiZulu so you get glides (y or w) inserted where necessary. But names like Auda ibu Tayi of the Howeitat make it clear such things are a matter of convention and analysis.
I have seen people argue that languages of the Caucasus may have no phonemic vowels, since y and w give coloration, and the presence or absence of a short or long mid-vowel (ə or a) is fully predictable/non contrastive. That analysis has even been suggested by some for pre-PIE.
Or we could even speculate that the word is Dwowda, or there's an unmarked glottal stop lurking in the French orthography. We need a reference (I spent about 20 minutes looking, or an informant. μηδείς (talk) 23:43, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
See fr:Wikipédia:Oracle.—Wavelength (talk) 23:55, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You can ask the people at Bibliothèque nationale de France, Paris, Frrance,
via http://www.bnf.fr/fr/collections_et_services/poser_une_question_a_bibliothecaire.html.
—Wavelength (talk) 23:58, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have asked the question in French, here. I only caught myself making one mistake, creating a nonexistent "pregunter" for "demander" from the Spanish "preguntar", but if anyone wants to check me up, it will help. μηδείς (talk) 03:18, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My recent affair with Arabic was more than half a year ago and I might forget much, but this waw-alif-waw combination bothers me, as there are few if any Arabic words that can contain such a combination, only the name of the letter wāw itself comes into my mind, so I have little idea how to interpret it at all. However, bearing in mind that this is not an average Arabic word, but a place name and particularly a Maghrebi place name, anything is possible, so there is no point in adjusting the name into Standard Arabic, but it must be taken at its face value, that is in Algerian Arabic it might be pronounced something like /dwa(ː)wda/, while into English it might be rendered as /ˈdwaʊdɑː/ or /ˈdwɑːʊdɑː/. In French it is simpler, /dwauˈda/ (in three syllables).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:16, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
waw-alif-waw combination bothers me, as there are few if any Arabic words that can contain such a combination -- دواوين [dawa:wi:n], the plural of diwan, is Standard Arabic. --217.140.96.140 (talk) 12:06, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per a suggestion at the French Wikipedia, you can go here to Google Translate and listen to the little speaker "liste" icons and hear the suggested pronunciation. The French would be [du-a-u-da]. I won't attempt the Arabic. μηδείς (talk) 02:21, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I just did a test of the pronunciations Google gives. It seems to have a large dictionary for Englisy, but then gets down to guessing. It got the shibboleths Spuyten Duyvil, Absecon, Quahog, Schuylkill and Pennsauken all correct. But Bala Cynwyd "Balla Kinwood" in the Philly area was neither correct to the American or Welsh, and Passyunk (Locally pronounced "PASH-unk") it totally blew, giving PASS-uh-nick; even inserting a spurious vowel between the final n and k. μηδείς (talk) 02:46, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Medical tautology

Expressions like "placed in a medically induced coma" and "acquired brain injury" amuse me.

Doesn't the verb "placed" automatically mean that it was medically induced, and hence isn't saying "medically induced" unnecessary? If you slip into a coma as a result of some medical condition and without human intervention, you have not been "placed" there.

Now, I can see that it might in general be necessary to classify brain injuries into congenital, acquired and whatever else. But when referring to the case of a specific person who we know wasn't born that way, we ipso facto know that they suffered some injury in the very or relatively recent past. So why do we need to say "acquired" when referring to their brain injury? Or is there some subtle nuance I'm missing here? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:02, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps not all people know that you can "medically induce" a coma, so the "medically induced" is a welcome additional bit of info which clarifies and amplifies the "placed." The "medically" also suggests (don't know if justifiedly) that it's a safe, controlled process, i.e. something other than clubbing the patient, and that they could "deduce" the patient from the coma at any time. "Acquired" is redundant, agreed. Asmrulz (talk) 22:36, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps not all people know what you say. But do any people believe that orthodox medical practice extends to clubbing people or using other violent or Hypo Hippocratically inappropriate ("do no harm") methods? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:32, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A man goes to a doctor and says "Doc, I don't know why I have this headache." The doctor says, "Oh, that's just idiopathic cephalgia. You can pay at the desk" "Oh, that's a relief doc, what is 'idiopathic cephalgia', anyway?" The doctor says, "It's Greek for a headache whose cause we don't know." μηδείς (talk) 23:53, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose "medically induced" could also imply "caused by drugs not working as intended/incompetence/etc" (or at least, someone might interpret it as that). Adding "placed" makes it clear that it was intentional. Iapetus (talk) 12:22, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. The entire sentence is needed for clarity. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:21, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not seeing it. Once we know doctors are involved, and once we read "placed", that can only mean that they used a medically appropriate method to procure a coma in the patient. "Placed in a coma" tells me all I need to know. That is, unless I assume some kind of unorthodox practice; but in a general context where the standard rigours and qualifications and registration protocols apply, such an assumption would be contra-indicated. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 19:53, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
WHAG here, but "acquired brain injury" distinguishes it from one you were born with (cerebral palsy or other such condition). IANAD and all that. TammyMoet (talk) 14:34, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That phrase "Hypocratically inappropriate" is not very doctor - friendly. I suggest replacing it with Hippocratically inappropriate. There was a report in the paper this morning about a surgeon found guilty by the General Medical Council of having an inappropriate relationship with a patient. This leads to automatic striking off, but in this case it didn't because he is such a good surgeon they decided we couldn't afford to lose him. There's also the story of a man who didn't feel like work so he asked his doctor for a sick note. The doctor obliged, giving the illness as plumbum pendulens. I don't know what the acronym IANAD means, (or WHAG for that matter), but terminology like "Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome" (AIDS) does narrow down the pathology. 92.8.220.116 (talk) 17:23, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Spelling corrected, thanks. Not sure how the rest of your post contributes to the resolution of the question. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 19:53, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
what's plumbum pendulens? swinging lead? and...? Asmrulz (talk) 01:48, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
oh, beer belly? is that the joke?Asmrulz (talk) 02:14, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

July 18

July 19

Greek greeting

Hi, I think I heard a Greek greeting that sounds like BARAK-ALLAH. How is this written in Greek? What's its meaning and origin? 27.115.113.102 (talk) 01:20, 19 July 2016 (UTC) I couldn't find it in Greek phrasebook. 27.115.113.102 (talk) 01:21, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's from the Arabic Barak (given name) "blessed" and Allah. It may have an idiomatic or particularly religious meaning, and you may have heard it from a non-Arab. μηδείς (talk) 02:02, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Barakallah (Μπαράκ Αλλάχ, بارك الله). —Stephen (talk) 03:17, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tycho Brahe

While I'm translating Tycho Brahe into other language, I'm frustrated by the following sentence:

This is one of my interpretation of the sentence in point form:

I can think of another possible way of interpretation:

Can you tell me which one is the intended meaning of the sentence? --Quest for Truth (talk) 01:28, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One more question. Is the "predictions" here referring to fortune-telling? --Quest for Truth (talk) 01:45, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • My interpretation

In return for [his patrons'] support, Tycho's duties included

  1. preparing [his patrons'] astrological charts
    1. predictions for his patrons on events
      1. <such as> births
      2. <such as> weather forecasting
  2. astrological interpretations of significant astronomical events
    1. <such as> the supernova of 1572 (sometimes called Tycho's supernova)
    2. <such as> the Great Comet of 1577.

As to your question, re: predictions, they would (ostensibly) be based on the 'prepared astrological charts'. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8558:6C31:688B:8595 (talk)

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