Talk:Columbia University

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Accomplished Alumni Numbers

I feel like the last lead paragraph should be rewritten towards the end in order to give a better sense of Columbia alumni accomplishments in fields other than government. The number of presidents, founding fathers, and other politicians is great, but it leaves out the impact that Columbia alumni have had on other fields, such as business and art. I would keep the number at four, just because we don't want to risk coming off as boisterous (see It's not a score board or horse race), but I vote that we mix it up a bit to give a broader view of University accomplishments. Here's my vote:

20 Billionaires (this is a high number, only behind Harvard and Stanford)
9 Supreme court justices (Only behind Yale and Harvard)
25 Academy Award Winners (this is the highest of ANY university I can find)
3 US Presidents (Only behind Yale and Harvard)

What is everyone's opinion? I think the Nobel Prize count speaks to Columbia's huge achievements in science and literature, but I would be reluctant to place the Pulitzer count up top, just because the school also administers it, which could come off as favoritism. I think the Founding Father/Head of State count should be moved to the top of the notable alumni section, because they're definitely big accomplishments.

Alumni section

I don't think the number of US Senators is correct. Only two? It's hard to believe that. Is there any source?

External links modified

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The Seal

Corkythehornetfan (talk · contribs) wants to use a low quality (vector) image of the seal from the official Identity Guidelines of the University. I think a better version will be this (raster) version from a scan.

What do you thinks is the best version? RaphaelQS (talk) 18:07, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

I submitted a request at the Illustration Workshop for it be cleaned up. 🎓 Corkythehornetfan 🎓 18:52, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

I don't see what they can do with such a low quality, but let's wait --RaphaelQS (talk) 06:21, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Columbia is the nation's fifth oldest institution of higher learning

I am starting this discussion section at the request of Mr. Malik Shabazz, who has deleted my proposed footnote about Columbia University's status as the fifth oldest institution of higher learning in the American colonies. I suggested my footnote because, although almost all historians agree that Columbia is the nation's fifth oldest college, there is an interesting point of disagreement coming from the University of Pennsylvania.

Very few, if any, historians disagree that the three oldest American colleges are, in order, Harvard (proposed by the Massachusetts General Assembly in 1636, chartered in 1650), William & Mary (chartered in 1693) and Yale (chartered in 1701). Furthermore, the vast majority of historians agree that the next two oldest colleges are Princeton (chartered in 1746) and Columbia (chartered in 1754), making them fourth and fifth in order, respectively. However, Penn maintains a different version of events. The University of Pennsylvania has officially recognized three founding dates over the course of its history (1750, 1749 and 1740). The currently used founding date of 1740 was adopted in 1899 in order to make Penn appear older than Princeton. American universities in 1895 had agreed that academic processions would have institutions march in the order in which they were founded, making each school's founding date a more conspicuous feature. The University of Pennsylvania was chartered in 1755 and, on that basis, would be the sixth oldest institution of higher learning.

I suggested my footnote because this is an interesting backstory to Columbia's status as the fifth oldest college. Mr. Shabazz apparently objects to discussion of this topic, perhaps because as an alumnus of Columbia, he finds the Penn point of view unsupportable. I make no argument that Penn's train of logic is sound or not. Indeed, I am clear that Penn is pretty much on its own island in terms of the opinion of other historians. I am respectfully requesting that Mr. Shabazz stop deleting my proposed footnote. Thank you. Regards, Laila — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.47.163.34 (talk) 17:35, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

This sounds like original research and something, if supporting sources can be found, that is better suited for articles on UPenn. I agree with keeping the footnote off this page. Grko3 (talk) 18:19, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Grko3. No, this isn't original research. Well, it's not exactly "research" and it certainly isn't original. Here's a good article from the Penn Gazette titled "Building Penn's Brand" from George Thomas, a historian at Penn, which covers all this material, as well as other aspects of Penn's early history. Building Penn's Brand Furthermore, all this subject matter is already covered to varying degrees in the Wiki articles on Penn and the Ivy League. All I'm doing is pointing out the self-evident mathematical fact that, if Princeton is older than Columbia and Penn further claims to be older than Princeton, then if that latter supposition is accepted, Columbia is not the fifth oldest college in America, but rather sixth. That is the train of thought forwarded by Penn's board of trustees in 1899, although obviously Columbia, Princeton and most historians disagree. Whether one agrees with that argument or not, it's clearly relevant to whether Columbia is the fifth oldest. --Laila

Hi, Malik. I have tried very hard to comply with your requests. You initially deleted my footnote because it was, in your words, "unsourced" and "off-topic." So I went back and added a number of sources. I certainly included sources for everything I said which would not be common knowledge to a student of the early history of American education. I then started this talk page, as you requested, to explain why the footnote was on topic. I've spelled out the logic of my proposed language in as clear and simple language as I can:

The University of Pennsylvania officially claims a founding date of 1740, which would make Columbia University the sixth oldest American college, not the fifth.

Now, as I've said repeatedly, very few if any historians outside of Penn's history department accept Penn's version of events. And of course neither Princeton nor Columbia do, as each considers Princeton and Columbia the fourth and fifth oldest colleges, respectively. But that consensus outside of Philadelphia does not change the fact that a major American university maintains an official position which is at odds with Columbia's status as fifth oldest. So my language is not "trivia" (in your words) only suitable for Penn's wiki page. It is directly relevant to the sentence on Columbia's page which states that Columbia is the fifth oldest American institution of higher learning.

I presume that you object to my footnote so strenuously because, as a Columbia alumnus yourself, you fear that any discussion of Penn's opinion either supports that point of view or otherwise undermines Columbia's claim to be fifth. But historians are just about unanimous that Columbia is fifth, despite Penn's claim. So your fears are not grounded. For goodness' sake, my proposed language is a footnote. Viewers can read it if they're interested or they can move on to the next sentence if they're not. I've done everything that you've requested. I am politely asking you to please stop deleting my footnote. Thank you. --Laila — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.47.163.34 (talk) 20:45, 8 August 2016 (UTC)