Talk:Ride the Lightning

Some feedback

• What was the B-side to the "Creeping Death" single?

Doesn't it already says?

• There doesn't appear to be anything on the impact the album had on other bands or the band's subsequent history.

Noted, I'll add that on my to-do list.

Lead

• There's nothing in the lead about the music! Not even the word "thrash".

Added, but will add more.

• I'd go into talking about the music before getting into the details of the recording.

Done.

• I'd drop the recording costs.

Dropped.

Background and recording

• The first paragraph crams a lot of information into one place and it feels like it jumps from topic to topic rather abruptly.

I'll further expand the background and divide it into more paragraphs.

• remixed by engineer Eddie Kramer, which Metallica declined: do we know why?

Because they didn't want to?

• Hammett took the album's name from a passage in Stephen King's novel The Stand : do we have more context?
• which was noted for its one-dimensional sound: I'm sure there are people who disagree with that assessment—might want to rework or drop this (I'd drop it).

I agree, will modify it.

• In 1984, the French record label Bernett Records misprinted the color of the album cover in green, rather than blue, and 400 copies with the green cover were pressed. Because of their rarity, this misprint caused these green albums to become collectors' items.: This seems to jump out of nowhere, coming after a discussion of Hetfield's lyrics. Perhaps consolidate release details in one paragraph?

I'll move that in the reception section, when I collect more information on sales.

Music and lyrics

• The song encourages the "eye for an eye" approach: Does it really? I always interpreted it the opposite: a criticism that such an approach will lead to nuclear armageddon.

Corrected.

• "For Whom the Bell Tolls" was released as a promo single: then it should be added to the infobox.

That was a promotional recording, not a single in the classic fashion.

• "Fade to Black" is a power ballad: is it really? Superficially it has the slow, emotional verses against power-chordy "choruses", but ...

A number of writers call it, namely Popoff and Pillsbury.

• the song begins with an acoustic guitar introduction and becomes progressively heavier and faster, ending with multi layered guitar solos: well, not really. It has an acoustic intro with electric soloing over it that, then it goes back and forth between moody, acoustic verses and high-power electric choruses, then suddenly goes into a dramatic, thrashy section about 3:55, then finishes with all the soloing, not all of which is layered.
• "Fade to Black" was released as a promo single: again, should be in the infobox

Same as "For Whom the Bell Tolls".

• The song is based on a fast picked galloping riff: this is a Garden path sentence—the reader will expect something like "The song is based on a short story by such-and-such an author" and will likely have to re-read the sentence to parse its sense properly.

Changed to built.

• wide-appealing lyrics: "Escape" has "wide-appealing lyrics"?

Corrected.

• There's no description of "Escape"'s music or lyrics.

Added.

• Exodus recorded and released as a demo: I'm not familiar with the "release" of demos ...? Does this mean it was a bonus track released years later or something?

Corrected, it was only demoed.

• was based on H. P. Lovecraft's book The Shadow Over Innsmouth : or more likely "inspired by", as the track has no lyrics?

Done.

Reception

• Ride the Lightning received positive reviews from music critics. AllMusic's Steve Huey saw the album as: I don't think it's a good idea to start "reception" with a review written likely 20 years or more after the album's release.
• This section should make it clearer which reviews were contemporary and which retrospective, and arrange them better, probably in separate paragraphs. It should also have much more contemporary stuff.

Touring

• At a gig in Portland, Oregon, Metallica covered "The Money Will Roll Right In" by Fang, with Armored Saint onstage.: why is this mentioned? There's no context—surely it wasn't the only cover they performed.
• Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:44, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

The 2009 photo seems out of place in a section about their '80s touring. Could we either have a period photo or remove it? --2600:1008:B018:BA2:1011:465E:A4B0:89B6 (talk) 07:59, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ride the Lightning/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jaguar (talk · contribs) 16:38, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

I'll have this done soon JAGUAR  16:38, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Initial comments

• "the album moved half a million by November 1987" - sold half a million?

Corrected.

• "Rasmussen, who had not heard of Metallica before, accepted to work on the album" - might sound better as Rasmussen, who had not heard of Metallica before, agreed to work on the album

Corrected.

• "Metallica was apparently going to sign with Bronze Records" - 'apparently' is a weasel word, while I'm actually neutral on this matter, I would recommend removing it as any GA reviewer would mention it

Can I use "seemingly"?

• "three weeks before they got in Copenhagen" - arrived in or got to

Corrected, went with the second variant.

• "Elektra released the single "Creeping Death" in a sleeve depicting bridge and a skull" - depicting a bridge?

Corrected.

• "Metallica finished 1985 with a December 29 show at the Sacramento Memorial Auditorium" - try Metallica finished 1985 with a show at the Sacramento Memorial Auditorium on December 29

Corrected.

• "except "Creeping Death" by Hetfield and Kirk Hammett" - might be worth elaborated this to except "Creeping Death", which was co-written by Hetfield and Kirk Hammett
• No dead links

This an excellent article. Truly, I could find almost nothing wrong with it and is already looking like pure GA material. I made a few prose suggestions above, so once they're all out of the way this should be good to go. JAGUAR  17:07, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the review Jaguar, it was pleasure working with you.--Retrohead (talk) 21:19, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing them! This looks great now, so I'll be promoting. Good work with this JAGUAR  14:17, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

RE: The Call of Ktulhu

Retrohead's version (which he/she's actually willing to engage in edit-warring and personal attacks over):

The song begins with D minor chord progression in the intro...

My version:

The track begins with D minor chord progression in the intro...

--Gibson Flying V (talk) 02:42, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

You offered no valid explanation why you want to make the change. Your belief that "The Call of Ktulu" is not a "song" but a "track" because it has no lyrics is nonsense. First of all, you've mistaken the song's title (it's "Ktulu", not "Ktulhu" as you wrote in the section's title), and secondly, you misspelled "piece" and wrote it as "peice", which makes me think that copyediting is not your strong side.--Retrohead (talk) 13:03, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Interesting. Care to use this page for its intended purpose and defend your use of the word "song" to refer to an instrumental peice, or shall we just go back to my version?--Gibson Flying V (talk) 21:58, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Google's definition for track is "a recording of one song or piece of music" and nowhere it says anything about whether it has lyrics or not. If you have a printed dictionary, feel free to share. Back to my previous response–your claim is gibberish.--Retrohead (talk) 08:22, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

I thought it was clear that the question here is not whether "The Call of Ktulhu" should be referred to as a track (as it clearly should be), but whether or not it should be referred to as a song, i.e. a short piece of music with words that are sung, a short metrical composition intended or adapted for singing, a single (and often standalone) work of music intended to be sung.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 02:26, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

The "track or song" debate has come up before, and each side provided dictionary definitions showing why their side was right. While I prefer "track" or "recording," "song" can be used to describe a musical piece without lyrics. It really doesn't matter.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:41, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

As you say, "song" certainly can be used to describe a musical piece without lyrics (in, say, an informal discussion). But let's consider whether it should be used to describe this track in an encyclopedia (that hopes to someday be taken seriously by serious people). When editing, I personally like to have Wikipedia come out on the right side of every choice, important and unimportant alike, and I agree that "track" or "recording" are preferable.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 05:04, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Changed back to track. I think it's not very important issue, but since more than one think it should be track, I reverted it.--Retrohead (talk) 09:28, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

For Whom the Bell Tolls

Current version:

The lyrics were based on Ernest Hemingway's novel of the same name, which explores the horror and dishonor of modern warfare.

Suggested version

The lyrics were inspired by Ernest Hemingway's 1940 novel of the same name, which explores the horror and dishonor of modern warfare.

Thoughts?--Gibson Flying V (talk) 15:37, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

More than a week without objection. Making the change now.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 00:41, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't go that way pal. If someone wants to make a "controversial" change to the article, he has to be sure that someone else besides him agrees with that change. I don't think that the year when the book was released matters or changes the context of the sentence. It could've been released 1147 and still the sentence would have the same meaning.--Retrohead (talk) 08:56, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

"Bang that head that doesnt bang"

Retrohead has removed the italics that I added to the name of the tour. I think this title/name clearly needs either Italics or quotation marks around it as it makes for very awkward reading to have it stand as a full sentence in the middle of a sentence (even if it has title case). Adding italics was also suggested in the first FA review.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 06:42, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

I saw it was suggested, but it's not in line with the manual of style. Here's the link to the policy, and other tour articles such as Not in This Lifetime... Tour are not written in italics (such as albums) nor in quotes (such as songs).--Retrohead (talk) 09:33, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

That looks like a wikiproject guideline, not a part of the MOS - and in this case I think it creates problems that conflicts with the purpose of the MOS. Also I cannot actually see where the style suggestions of the Wikiproject actually states that italics or quotation marks should not be used in the article text - only that it should not be used in the title of articles.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:40, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

There's nothing in the MOS about naming tours (my bad). The linked guideline is the only thing I found that refers (the 'Naming' subsection) how to write tours. My second point was to follow how tour names are written in other articles, in order to be consistent.--Retrohead (talk) 09:53, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

I think readability is more important than consistency across articles. I suggest you ask what other reviewers at the FA nomination think and then base a decision on the feedback.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 10:00, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

There's no arguing that readability comes first. This issue doesn't affect only this article, so it needs to be discussed at some more inclusive debate. I don't oppose italicizing the tour name for better orientation, but someone else might want the tour to be in quotes or in capital letters using the readability argument. If there's is a consensus that tours should be italicized, I'll implement it right away.--Retrohead (talk) 10:31, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

I dont think the decision made here can be necessarily transfered to all other articles - this particular tour name is a full sentence, which is what causes the issue, if it were called for example Metallica 1986 World Tour the problem wouldnt arise in the same way. I would suggest that the FA reviewers will be exactly the right group to make a decision for this specific article - and that there is no need for a general policy on the matter.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 10:34, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Are you OK with two apostrophes? Also, where so you think they should be put? 'Bang That Head That Doesn't Bang European tour' or 'Bang That Head That Doesn't Bang' European tour?--Retrohead (talk) 11:28, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Looking at the MOS it doesnt suggest that as an option (only for quotations inside quotatoins and for plant cultivars and simple gloss). Personally I don't care much how you mark off the title, as long as it is done somehow, but there are probably some people at FAC and at the MOS talkpage who could give you recommendations.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 11:44, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

This came up somewhere—I can't remember where, but it was either here or another article Retrohead was working on—but after digging we discovered that tours do not get italicized or quotemarked, only capitalized. It's the same deal with product names, for example (I Can't Believe It's Not Butter!, etc). Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 17:13, 10 August 2016 (UTC)