Talk:Final Solution

Vandalization

Someone has put a photo of Donald Trump on the sidebar. Honestly, not surprised. Info on his campaign.September 12th, 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.26.211.33 (talk) 15:40, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

The vandalism has been reverted.--Ddcm8991 (talk) 15:41, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

German pronunciation

Learning German as my second foreign language, I was taught Germans pronounce [k] at the end of words ending with -ng. Well, you know, even in parts of Britain they do. Check it out, somebody... Lincoln Josh (talk) 15:33, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I have never heard of this and can't imagine why that would be taught. Maybe I'm missing something. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 22:25, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

The term 'Final Solution' has been hijacked.

One might note that this term is a fairly common pre-war term for the removal of minority populations. The correct term of this section of the Wiki ought be 'final solution to the jewish problem'.

Search eg google 'final solution to the german question', and also eg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution_of_the_Czech_Question

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_from_Czechoslovakia

The Rise of the Great Powers 1648 - 1815 https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1317872843 Derek Mckay, ‎H.M. Scott - 2014 - ‎History ther partition as a final solution to the Polish question, for the situation created by the second partition was intrinsically unstable. Catherine's troops remained in ...

I don't deny the Holocaust did not occur, but 'final solution' is not identically equal to it.

One suspects that the concentration on the Holocaust is intended to hide the crimes of the allies, committed after the war (expulsion of some ten million people from their homes). Wendy.krieger (talk) 11:54, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Don't be utterly ridiculous. The "Final Solution of the Jewsih Question" is one of the key phrases associated with the Holocaust. And it has nothing to do with the 'crimes of the Allies' - and the expulsion of the German minorities from the various other countries in the East was to remove a constant source of irritation/temptation of the German nation for pan-Germanism. It was never considered a 'crime' - sad that it had to happen, but several wars had already been the result of German nationalism. The phrase "Final Solution ..." is more than Reliably Sourced many times in Wikipedia. My own private library has dozens of volumes by the most highly regarded historians written in English or translated in English referring to it. 98.67.190.222 (talk) 19:00, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

The term 'final solution to the x question' dates back to the 17th century. You can find it's a current idiom with the meaning of 'move the x out of here' for x = irish, indian, negro, muslim, japanese. In the case of indian and japanese, it entailed the removal of the populations, on one case the 'trail of tears', in the second, into concentration camps in the mississippi. George Taski (the Star-trek actor) was a victim of it.

The page is 'final solution', not 'final solution to the jewish question'. There are other cases of 'final solution to x question', and this ought be noted here. "Final Solution" simply means 'move the people out of here'. That's what Jackson did with the Indians, and what Jefferson would do with the Negros. It's actually incorrect to suppose that 'final solution' to equal a licence to bulk murder, is actually an abuse of term. It does not lead to this with the exceptions where there is no place to move the people to. The German decision for execution was made during the war (1941). It ought serve as a warning that any racial prejudice ought decend through this stage, and then, where the means exist, the execution of some form of it.

We might note that the popularity of polish jokes in the 60s etc, were an exact response to the 'final solution of the german question', and the expelling of millions of germans to other countries (including the USA), whence this notion. Wendy.krieger (talk) 10:53, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

"One suspects that the concentration on the Holocaust is intended to hide the crimes of the allies, committed after the war (expulsion of some ten million people from their homes)." Talk pages are not a forum, nor a place for negationism. GAB^gab 16:35, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Banner at top of article states: "This article is about the Nazi Germany policy. For other uses, see Final Solution (disambiguation)."
Final Solution (disambiguation) states: "Final Solution primarily refers to the Nazi plan to kill all the Jews in Europe which culminated in the Holocaust."
Final Solution (disambiguation) then goes on to list other uses of this term, which do not include "the expelling of millions of germans to other countries" (sic) or "what Jackson did with the Indians, and what Jefferson would do with the Negros." (sic) Mick gold (talk) 23:32, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

History again

This is the main problem with Wikipedia, amateurs cutting and pasting from books. Not academics who should by the nature of their PhDs be undisputed experts in the field.

Half this article is a mish mash with wrong assertions. Operation Reinhard the most lethal phase of the Holocaust was put in to effect through a verbal order from Heinrich Himmler to Odilo Globocnik in October 1941. But this article would have us believe that Wanassee was the pre-cursor to the "final solution".

Wanaseee was arguably more like a middle-managers briefing meeting with actual events already taking pace. Operation Reinhard, which began in Oct 1941, gets just a brief mention and ridiculously is supposedly referenced to say it started in July 1942 - a whole 10 months later than it did.

This article needs a full rewrite to change the emphasis give the killing phases of Operation Reinhard concurrency to before and after Wanassee. Before Reinhard there were killings, massacres and arbitrary murders but Reinhard was the pinnacle of the final solution when the victims (who were mostly Jews but also included Gypsies, Slavs and Poles).

This article gets it so wrong. Buy a book and read some real properly researched history. 81.129.127.243 (talk) 19:23, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out aspects of this article that can be improved. I have edited the accounts of Operation Reinhard and the Wannsee Conference (note spelling!) to try to give greater precision to the article. Your criticisms of this article are perhaps a mite exaggerated.

Historians disagree about when, or indeed whether, a formal decision was made to begin the Final Solution to the Jewish Question. But this article clearly summarizes Christopher Browning's argument: "The Final Solution as it is now understood—the systematic attempt to murder every last Jew within the German grasp" took shape during a five-week period, from 18 September to 25 October 1941, when the sites of the first extermination camps were selected, and different methods of killing were tested. During this period, Browning writes, "The vision of the Final Solution had crystallised in the minds of the Nazi leadership and was being turned into reality." The article states: "The construction work on the first killing centre at Bełżec in occupied Poland preceded the Wannsee Conference by three months."

The Wannsee Conference on 20 January 1942 is usually described by historians as Heydrich asserting his authority over the implementation of the Final Solution. In David Cesarani's words: "The simplest, most decisive way that Heydrich could ensure the smooth flow of deportations was by asserting his total control over the fate of the Jews in the Reich and the east, and by cowing other interested parties into toeing the line of the RSHA". Moreover, the construction of the Polish extermination camps Nazi extermination camps in Poland, including Belzec, began after the mass murderous activities of the Einsatzgruppen following the start of Operation Barbarossa on 22 June 1941. As the article points out, at a conservative estimate, 800,000 Jews had been killed by the end of 1941—primarily through mass shootings. Mick gold (talk) 09:24, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Usually, I don't respond to personal opinions by IP users (per above) making claims without any new references to back them up with. I don't think our article gets it wrong, and I don't think it needs a second rewrite. I rewrote it already between 29 January and 14 February 2016 by adding (16,212) of academically supported content. However, because Mick gold already responded, after editing the article, I now see that some clarifications need to be made. The phrase "Operation Reinhard" can be understood in two different ways. That's because of how the English grammar works! "Operation Reinhard" can be seen as the top-secret plan devised by Nazi Germany, as well as its European-wide murderous implementation which took place some time later. Both popular uses of this code-name are correct. "Operation Reinhard" (as an idea) was began in October 1941. At that time, no killings of Operation Reinhard took place. The killings began at Bełżec extermination camp on 17 March 1942; Sobibór extermination camp was ready by April 1942 when Bełżec was already operating. Treblinka extermination camp became operational in July 1942. This is what all leading Holocaust historians confirm. The killings of Operation Reinhard began in the spring of 1942. I'd like to ask you all to please note the semantic difference between the English phrase "Operation Reinhard" in relation to action planning on the one hand, and concrete actions on the other. Chełmno extermination camp was not a part of Reinhard.

Heydrich's vans were in fact only one of three different gassing technologies being tested and developed in September and October of 1941. A second, involved the testing of Zyklon B in Auschwitz, while the third involved preparations to transfer the technology and personnel of carbon-monoxide gassing (using the newly tested engine exhaust however, rather than bottled gas) from the euthanasia institutes in Germany to stationary gas chambers in Poland. — Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution.

Poeticbent talk 15:01, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

The timeline

On 18 December 1941, Himmler asked Hitler, "What to do with the Jews of Russia?" ?

The context suggests the dialog took place in 1940. Xx236 (talk) 12:00, 5 September 2016 (UTC)