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September 13

Pronunciation of Bathurst (surname)

Hi there,

how to pronounce Bathurst? Especially Benjamin Bathurst. Best regards --Yoursmile (talk) 16:42, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Do any of these help? --Jayron 32 16:52, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Are they correct? People in Perleberg, where Benjamin Bathurst (diplomat) disappeared, pronounce his name like [baːˈtuːɐ̯st], which sounds terrible. Best regards --Yoursmile (talk) 17:33, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The pronunciation of words from one language (such as English) will be altered by people who natively speak another language (such as German). This is called "Interference" or commonly Language transfer. Thus eople from Perleberg may very well say the name differently than people from London. --Jayron 32 17:45, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Yoursmile: Done, see the article.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 18:23, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You can hear the correct pronunciation of Canadian Bathurst (/ˈbæθɚst/ by a Canadian male), as well as Australian Bathurst (/ˈbæθəst/ by an Australian male and a female) here. —Stephen (talk) 19:10, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Does the lack of a language authority in English explain why the spelling has not evolved with the pronunciation?

Unlike most other languages, English has a very archaic spelling; many words are spelled in the way they were pronounced many centuries ago. E.g. we write "laugh", while we now pronounce the "gh" as an "f", 500 years ago the "gh" sound was used. Another example is that there is now no difference between how we pronounce "witch" and "which" but just a century ago the h after a w was actually pronounced. So, the question is why the spelling isn't updated as it is in most other languages. IS this due to the fact that English lacks a language authority that issues rules for spelling, grammar etc. like there exists for the French language? Count Iblis (talk) 19:00, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think lack of a language authority has anything to do with it. There are two main paths that written language may follow: phonetic spelling and etymological spelling. Many languages, such as Spanish, German, and Korean, choose phonetic spelling (and require occasional spelling reforms). A few languages, such as English and Tibetan, choose etymological spelling, and spelling reforms are rarely needed. —Stephen (talk) 19:16, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Arguably, yes; see e.g. [1] -- "Substantial reforms would require centralised authority and a critical mass of collective, coherent will – neither of which seems likely." Of course it wouldn't necessarily have to be a French-style academy: there's no reason why persuasive authorities such as dictionary writers couldn't do the job (as to a certain extent Webster did in the US). Incidentally, your opinion regarding "witch" and "which" is far from universal (which is a nice illustration of the difficulties involved). Henry ^Flower 19:19, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I find that the "t" in "witch" distinguishes it from "which" even when it's pronounced "wich" instead of "which". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:45, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand what you mean by that. The "ch" phoneme in English is pronounced /tʃ/, so it's not possible to pronounce "which" without a "t" sound. Of course, one can emphasize the "t" more strongly in certain contexts. CodeTalker (talk) 21:37, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See the section "Whine–wine merger".—Wavelength (talk) 20:49, 13 September 2016 (UTC) and 21:02, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

When you talk of "the pronunciation", you may as well be talking of "the grain of sand" on the beach as if one grain tells you all you ever need to know about sand. The spelling of English words is, by and large, universal across the Anglosphere, but the pronunciation varies enormously. So, which pronunciation do we take as the base for deciding how to update our spellings? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:16, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Our article on English-language spelling reform outlines the multitude of proposals which had been put forward over the centuries. It also discusses the obstacles on their way. --My another account (talk) 07:57, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ghoti.--Phil Holmes (talk) 08:45, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with Shaw's "ghoti" - as the article points out - is that it picks letters with no context. English has 26 letters for anything between about 35 and 45 distinctive sounds, so any spelling system has to rely on context. According to the rules of English spelling - and they do exist - "ghoti" is pronounced like goatee. Kahastok talk 19:00, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Initial stress is regular, so that would be goaty, not "goatee". μηδείς (talk) 01:45, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Must be a dialect thing - round here "goatee" also has initial stress. Kahastok talk 18:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, really? The things you learn hanging out here.... --Trovatore (talk) 19:07, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is the /t/ aspirated? In American English, the /t/ in "goatee" is aspirated, but the one in "goaty" is a flap. --Trovatore (talk) 19:09, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It rhymes with "floaty" - normally an unaspirated [t], though it wouldn't take much for it to turn into a [ʔ]. Kahastok talk 19:40, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of years ago I read a book about writing systems by (i think) Geoffrey Sampson. It argued that phonemic spelling is a convenience for the writer, but if a text is to be read by more than one person then the readers' convenience ought to prevail, and the morphology reflected in conservative spelling is important. —Tamfang (talk) 07:21, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

September 14

Double X in Names

Apparently Jamie Foxx took his surname as a tribute to Redd Foxx, who himself took it from baseball player Jimmie Foxx. The latter got it the usual way, from his father. But where would that unusual spelling have originated? Rojomoke (talk) 15:00, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This page [2] about surnames lists several names related to "Foxx" that include a double X, e.g. Foxxy, Foxxe, Fixx, Faxx, Voxx. Most of those are listed as most prevalent in the USA, where we have a long history of changing spellings of surnames. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:11, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This book has some interesting notes on the family of Jimmie Foxx and the origin of the family name. It also has references for further study. --Jayron 32 17:48, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Swish! Canada leads the world in another important category! Matt Deres (talk) 19:07, 14 September 2016 (UTC) [reply]

September 15

Why Mount Sinai, Mount Everest, and not Sinai Mount?

Why Mount Sinai, Mount Everest, and not Sinai Mount, ...?--Llaanngg (talk) 09:53, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mt. Ararat, Mt. McKinley/Denali, Mt. Fuji, Mt. Olive, Mt. St. Helens, etc. etc. But then there's Sugar Loaf Mountain, Grandfather Mountain, etc. I think you'll find that "Mount" usually precedes the name, and "Mountain" usually follows it (or a range). But English has many peculiarities and exceptions. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:19, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think the usual English rule applies. When in doubt, blame the French. Mont Blanc, etc. Rmhermen (talk) 16:48, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not always: we have Mont Saint-Michel but St Michael's Mount. Dbfirs 20:34, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And rather more modestly, Chingford Mount in London. Alansplodge (talk) 21:21, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

An obvious one is Temple Mount. I have this feeling that there's also an example in Known Space, but I'm not coming up with it. --Trovatore (talk) 21:24, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mount Lookitthat? Wymspen (talk) 07:45, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There's also the River Thames, and Lake Windermere. And the River Nile and Lake Baikal. (I think the Colonials have a different convention.) --ColinFine (talk) 22:22, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pedantry alert, but it's just Windermere, not Lake Windermere. Mere already means lake. In the Lake District, only Bassenthwaite Lake officially has Lake as part of its name. Fgf10 (talk) 08:45, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Antipedantry alert: what is this "officially" of which you speak? "Lake Windermere" has a small but definite incidence in ngrams since before 1850. --ColinFine (talk) 09:41, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See the link in my post. Just because people use it, doesn't mean it's right. Many common mistakes have ngrams. Fgf10 (talk) 09:49, 16 September 2016 (UTC) [reply]

Could also be the name of a different lake. That is, the Windermere in the UK could be different from a "Lake Windermere" located somewhere else. Like British Columbia. --Jayron 32 13:37, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Redundancies happen. I've often heard the big stream bordering Texas referred to as the "Rio Grande River". The Big River River. RAS syndrome. And when it comes to lakes, just in the Minneapolis area there are Lake Harriet, Long Lake, Lake of the Isles, Cedar Lake, Lake Minnetonka and Medicine Lake, to name a few. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:41, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And of course there are The The Angels Angels. Matt Deres (talk) 16:00, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think "Los Angeles Angels" is really parallel — "Los Angeles" is the name of the city, so "Angeles" is on the right side of the use–mention distinction, roughly speaking. The hilarious thing is that the full name is "The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim", and the story that explains how that name came to be. --Trovatore (talk) 05:38, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The current team began in 1961 as the Los Angeles Angels. They were named for their minor-league predecessor, which dated back to the early 1900s. LA is often called "the city of angels", which is actually part of the city's very long original name: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río de Porciúncula, which translates to "The Town of Our Lady the Queen of the Angels of the Porciúncula River". You're right that "Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim" is pretty silly. Following that logic, the Rams should rename themselves the Cleveland Rams of Los Angeles, Anaheim, St. Louis, Los Angeles, and [eventually] Inglewood. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:40, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

They got Anaheim taxpayers to chip in for a new stadium, agreeing to keep the word "Anaheim" as part of their name. When they decided it would be better for business reasons to be called "Los Angeles", they technically kept their word.

I'm an Angeleno but — go Giants! --Trovatore (talk) 07:53, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And the Philly Phillies. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:26, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

September 17

About Zhengzhang Shangfang

Hi all
This article is up for speedy deletion. Looking at Old Chinese phonology and Reconstructions of Old Chinese, it would appear that Zhengzhang is a significant scholar in this area. I've misplaced my JStor log-in ID and password, and there is understandably pretty much nothing in google-able reliable sources.
Your assistance would be greatly appreciated.
彼得 in 澳大利亞 aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:05, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

He does have an article on zh.wikipedia: 郑张尚芳. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:24, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

September 18

Modern Hebrew words stressed on the antepenult?

What is the technical word in Hebrew for those words of modern Hebrew that are stressed on the antepenult? (E.g. דיזנגוף "Di-zen-gof", קנדה "Ka-na-da", פוליטיקה "Po-li-ti-ka", etc.). Are there words in modern Hebrew that are stressed further back than that? Basemetal 01:10, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The term for such stress is מלעיל דמלעיל. --My another account (talk) 08:02, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Water lanes

Merriam-Webster defines water lane as "a lane with a stream flowing alongside". Oxford defines water lane as "A lane or path which closely follows a stream or small watercourse" (Originally and chiefly Guernsey apparently). In this painting by George Turner "A Derbyshire Water Lane" what I see is a path crossing a stream. I'm confused. What are the various meanings of water lane and do they differ in different parts of the UK? (Not sure if Guernsey is part of the UK, but ok). Basemetal 01:39, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, last question first: Guernsey is not part of the UK, nor of England, but is generally considered as part of the British Isles. The official status is a Crown Dependency, or internationally a "territory for which the United Kingdom is responsible". Guernsey and the neighbouring island of Jersey were historically part of the Duchy of Normandy but remained with the British Crown when the rest of the territory was lost to France. The Channel Islands as a whole are now very much British in their culture, outlook and government, but with a local Normandy-French flavour that is revealed in some of the place names, surnames and customs.

As for water lanes, named as such these seem to be a fairly uniquely Guernsey-ish thing. Apparently they began as people using the shallow streams to walk along in the river or on the narrow bank alongside (see this postcard, or this one, or this photo). In England itself, such an arrangement might more usually be called a Hollow way or holloway (from where we get Holloway, London) or 'sunken lane'. These are tracks which are at a level lower than the surrounding area, and often but not always followed the course of a river in the same way as Guernsey's water lanes. Our article also states that they are common in Normandy, and so I wonder if someone can look at the French article and see what the terminology there is.

Speculation klaxon - I suspect (without any particular evidence other than having holidayed in Guernsey 15 times or so in 20 years, and being familiar with the English landscape) that since Guernsey is a particularly crowded island, and also in the south west of the island the landscape is particularly jagged and hilly, making finding a path for a track difficult, it made sense for people to follow the course of rivers to get around (since the river naturally takes the easiest path). I'd guess that the 'water lane' title in Guernsey was influenced by Norman French, rather than taking the English term holloway, hence the difference.

Whether the track in the painting would be considered a water lane, I can only guess, but I don't think it looks like a holloway, so I wonder if it is maybe more of a descriptive title (like the way by/to/across the water). - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:47, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Number of periods of the Spanish trill?

WP article Trill consonant says that "usually a trill vibrates for 2–3 periods", but may vibrate for up to 5 periods, "or even more if geminate". Is this variation in the number of periods of a trill that the article mentions an individual thing or can the number of periods vary from language to language but not from one speaker to another of the same language? For example does the Spanish trill (in a given location) have a given number of periods for all speakers? By "Spanish trill" I mean the first consonant of "rojo" and the second consonant of "perro". It is sometimes called the Spanish "double r" but in some cases it is actually written as a "single r". Basemetal 02:41, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure where you are ever going to find a geminate doble erre, since I am not aware of any Spanish words that end in rr. The only time one gets a trill from a single r is at the beginning of words like reyes where all "r"s are trilled automatically. So no initial flaps, and no final trills. The longest rhotic sequence I can imagine would be something like por reir "due to laughing" where you would have a flap followed by trills. Even there I would expect something of a hiatus. μηδείς (talk) 04:48, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The bit about a geminate wasn't meant to apply to Spanish. I was just quoting the article which was not dealing exclusively with Spanish. Neither the article nor I said that there can be a geminate trill in Spanish. The real point of my question was that the number of a periods of a trill can vary from language to language, so my question was: what is the number of periods of a Spanish trill? And yes I was aware that initial r always represents a trill since I specifically said "the first consonant of the word rojo". For the sake of completeness I'll add that a single r inside a word, when it follows certain consonants (e.g. after the consonant 'l': alrededor) is also pronounced as a trill, whereas it is always a flap at the end of a word and in the middle of a word when it follows some other consonants. The only place where a trill (rr) can contrast with a flap (r) is inside a word between two vowels (e.g. perro vs pero). Any answer to my real question? Basemetal 08:18, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]