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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mathsci (talk | contribs) at 11:11, 15 October 2016 (→May Ball bans). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Nobel Prizes?

The article originally said that ten Nobel prize winners attended John's.... I can only find information and references about eight (as is claimed by the John's College homepage). I've altered this until someone can prove the original figure correct.

--CharlesRCD

St. vs St

In some ways this is very pernickety but its probably just worth discussing. St. John's College should technically be written as St John's College (i.e. without the full stop).

I think the grammar convention is that a word that is abbreviated but keeps its final letter, as in Saint -> St or Doctor -> Dr don't have a full stop but words which lose their final letter do, as in approximate -> approx. . Also 'St John's College' is actually the name of the college, it's at the top of the official webpage.

I was reading Isaac Newton/The first 15 years as Lucasian professor and St John's College is mentioned and is in red as the page doesn't exist. My question is, what's the best way to resolve this? Should I copy the contents of the St. John's entry to the St John's entry and then redirect the second to the first?

This also applies to the other Cambridge colleges named after saints, St Catharine's and St Edmund's.

(The above reads a little bit like I'm staking a claim to the above and that I must be the person who changes this. It's not supposed to read like that, if you think it should be changed its probably best to just change it rather than try and explain to me what I should do.)

Ams80 01:41 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

This is correct in Commonwealth English (but in case anyone argues, note that the rules are different in American English) Rnt20 19:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I am a student at John's and I feel I should point out that although tour guides often say the Bridge of Sighs is named after the famous bridge in Venice due to resemblance, they don't look alike at all. The only similarity is that they are both covered bridges. About a month ago I went to Venice and crossed the Bridge of Sighs and found there to be little or no resemblance. I don't claim to know the origin of the name of the Bridge of Sighs in John's, but I will try to find out. Owen, 21st Sept 2004

A member of the British royal family noted that the bridge looked like the Bridge of Sighs in Venice, and the name was then taken for the bridge in Cambridge Rnt20 19:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've added Thomas Nashe as one of the literary alumni of St Johns, is this OK?


Changed Johns to 3rd largest after Trinity and Homerton. Trinity has ~1100 undergrads and postgrads, Homerton has 1050, Johns has ~900

College Motto

I've asked the College for an authoritative translation of "souvent me souvient" (which doesn't look like 'remember me often' to me). roundhouse 00:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Souvient" is the third-person plural conjugation of "souvenir", which means "to remember". The "me" before it is an object pronoun, meaning "remember me". And "souvent" means "often". So it seems fine to me. ugen64 01:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am not convinced, given these facts, that we get "remember me often" (which seems an odd motto). The College have replied, authoritatively, that google yields both meanings, arising no doubt from the 2 versions which alternate on this page. roundhouse 08:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Christ's College, Cambridge (same motto) gives 'I often remember'. This seems to me to be much more likely to be correct. roundhouse 10:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The current master of Christ's College, Prof Malcom Bowie (French Literature) states confidently that the motto should be translated as "I often remember" and not "Remember me often". "Often it is remembered unto me" is the literal translation apparently, which renders better as "I often remember", or "Often I remember". Since this is mediaeval french, a modern french interpretation on the words is certainly not appropriate. LeBofSportif 14:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, as a native french speaker, I can confirm you that it univoquely mean "I often remember", and the form is actually very modern french. A francophone not aware that it is middle french would certainly think it is just french, albeit may be bit old fashioned, just like you have variations that appears over 50 years time.

Also I do not think the form "it is remembered unto me" would be more adequate - though here my doubt would lie in the english part which I am not sure to master well enough - as this form would seem as a passive act, whereas "I often remember" would be a decisive act of will to remember, and whose meaning is implicitly embeded in choosing this as a statement

Now what do you often remember is where the doubt lies. I would imagine that such a volontary declamation of rememberance is both an abidance to the fact that something is built through time, and of which we are only the temporary executors, and a form of hommage to filiation, but I am just getting over myself here, and this would need to be confirmed by other means !


Well done. roundhouse 15:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the "I often remember" is best understood in the context of Henry IV's motto, "Remember me" or "Forget me not". Henry IV had a motto of something like "souvereign" which some people interpret to just mean sovereign, but this is unsatisfactory. More likely, it is an old french word for the flower "Forget me not" which Henry IV had on his crest I think. I am doing this from memory, but I can check book sources if there is still dispute over the motto. LeBofSportif 17:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Giving a talk on the history of the College, Professor Boyd (an authority on these matters) stated that the motto meant 'I often remember'. This matches the interpretation used in Christ's College. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.182.232 (talk) 22:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A variant that I heard was that it was a pun - both the meanings 'Remember me often' and 'I often remember' should be read from it. This was from a modern French speaker, so I cannot be certain of the accuracy. The Stumo (talk) 11:06, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fisher

Any particular reason for "Saint" being in parentheses? Fisher was canonised in 1935 with Saint Thomas More as one of the English martyrs; it's normal practice to use brackets. I've removed them - please leave a note here if you disagree. Squeezeweasel 20:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cocktail

Since a cursory google search turned up nothing, can anyone provide more information on the "red boy" cocktail? are these equal proportions? a more detailed recipe would be great... 72.209.70.84 22:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC) - oops, wasn't logged in HunterAmor 15:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed assets valuation

Does someone have a citation for the fixed assets valuation? 500 billion seems like rather a lot... 86.14.227.200 (talk) 20:33, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please post new items at the bottom of the page. The figure in the article is £500m, not £500b. A source for this might be the Cambridge University Reporter, Vol CXXXVIII, Special Issue 11, “Accounts of the Colleges” (12 February 2008), which is available in printed form only. — Richie 11:17, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Classification

I've reclassified this as a C-Class article. I think the major thing that's standing in the way of it being B-Class is a lack of references, particularly within the History section. Mrh30 (talk) 10:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In light of recent changes, I think a reappraisal might be in order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CharlieRCD (talk • contribs) 18:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(I rearranged the above and restored the signature for CharlieRCD to make it clearer who said what) The Stumo (talk) 02:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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May Ball

The reference for the assertion that Time magazine rated St Johns May Ball as the 7th best party in the World appears to be a student newspaper from 2007, which itself cites no sources. Is this a verifiable claim? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.213.35 (talk) 17:15, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree; I think it should be removed as a claim. I'm a graduate of John's and it is one of those factoids that is bandied around incessantly, but I've had a look through the Time archives and there is no mention of anything of the sort; there doesn't seem to have ever been a list compiled of that name. Unless anyone can provide a primary source, then I will delete this claim, and maybe make mention of it in the May Ball section as an unverified claim, or even a common misconception. instantn00dle 12:46, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be another attempt at generating publicity for the May Ball using this claim. The anonymous IP provides three purported sources [1] [2] [3], but they all just repeat what Time magazine allegedly said. Hearsay. What is required is a primary source, i.e. in which year, issue and page of Time magazine this list appeared. — Richie 22:31, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Motto

The Info-box translates the college motto as "I often remember". I'm not an expert at Old French, but surely "Souvent me Souvient" means "They often remember me"? Unless anyone objects, I'll change it. Hallucegenia (talk) 09:25, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Discussed above. - David Biddulph (talk) 11:53, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Courses / Programs

Wouldn't it be better if the article actually talked about what is being taught in this "college" rather than the typical British self-centered BS?! Is it just another club where wealthy British aristocrats and noblemen sit on leather chairs drinking tea and reading newspaper while making racist remark regarding the rest of the world or is it a business school?! engineering school?! law? economics? or is it a medical school? graduate? undergraduate? or may be it is a research institution?! yeah right 175.139.16.64 (talk) 02:14, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

St John's College is, as the article states, a constituent college of the University of Cambridge. Primarily teaching is done outside the college, by the academic departments of the university, which is why it is not covered in this article. Details of subjects can be found on the University of Cambridge main article. Of the subjects offered by the university, students applying for the subjects listed here - http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/subjects-st-johns - may apply to St John's. St John's is not a 'college' in the American style (think of it as a residential hall, if you're too dim witted to read the Cambridge article). The University of Cambridge teaches a broad range of courses, covering all of the subject areas you have listed, and offers education to undergraduate, mature undergraduate and postgraduate students. As part of the university, John's is extremely active in academic research. I think that covers all of your ignorance - aside from the xenophobic remarks you made, which I shall dignify with no response other than mockery and condemnation. --WDaws (talk) 16:10, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can't help but notice the first idiot's IP address is from Malaysia, not the US! Dear 2nd idiot, do an IP-to-location search before making assumptions. 23.243.153.4 (talk) 08:43, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Can't help but notice that the third idiot made the assumption that because an American style of university was discussed, it meant the second idiot was assuming the first idiot was actually from that country... ;-) Ðiliff «» (Talk) 10:03, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I removed a number of External Links from the page. One (a link to a Gutenberg copy of a book) I moved to "Further Reading". The others (to the JCR, SBR and Boat Club's websites) seemed to me not to fall within any of the items under "What can normally be linked" or "Links to be considered" in WP:EL, so I removed them. To my mind, these sites are in no way necessary to an encyclopaedic understanding, and including them is effectively promotional. Ebonelm, you have restored them. Please explain why, under the principles of WP:EL, these belong in the article. --ColinFine (talk) 17:18, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

ColinFine, the links to the JCR, SBR, and Boat Club fall under WP:ELOFFICIAL, as official websites of their respective bodies which are mentioned in the St John's College, Cambridge#Student life section. Educational institutions, particularly colleges in collegiate universities, are relatively unique in having multiple (sub-)organisations associated with them. While under WP:ELMINOFFICIAL only one link should usually be provided there is an exception if: the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate, under a very few limited circumstances. One of the examples given is if a politician has a government website, a political party website, and a campaign website; these would all be considered appropriate. This appears to be an analogous situation given the status of the JCR etc... to St John's. It is also probably worth mentioning that nearly every college page for: Cambridge, Durham, Oxford, and York, contain links to JCRs, MCRs etc... Furthermore the same can be said of most universities, the University of Cambridge page for example has links to the student union and the graduate union. Essentially it is an established convention to have these links. If you feel that this answer is not satisfactory then I would suggest rather than making St John's the exception that you start a broader discussion on the issue at maybe Wikipedia talk: External links, Wikipedia talk:College and university article guidelines, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Universities (and post a message about the discussion on the other two talk pages). Ebonelm (talk) 20:40, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I can sort of see it about the JCR and SBR (particularly since these have been given parameters in the infobox). But the Boat Club? Why that and not fifty other college societies? --ColinFine (talk) 10:23, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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File:St John's College Chapel, Cambridge, UK - Diliff.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:St John's College Chapel, Cambridge, UK - Diliff.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 28, 2016. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2016-07-28. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:49, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

St John's College, Cambridge
The interior of the chapel at St John's College, Cambridge. Constructed between 1866 and 1869, to replace a smaller chapel which dated back to the 13th century, this chapel was designed by George Gilbert Scott in a style similar to that of Exeter College, Oxford. It is home to the Choir of St John's College, which has sung daily services since the 1670s.Photograph: David Iliff
Archive – More featured pictures...

May Ball bans

I have removed the sentence about the five male undergraduates banned from attending the SJC May Ball in June 2016. The editor adding the content first added it prominently to the history section and then, copy-pasting sensationalist headlines, prominently to the student life section. A more careful summary by me of the 2016 update in the Telegraph was reverted by this editor. The headlines were sensationalist and undue, and no context was provided. Could the editor explain why he thinks this content had any value and why he thinks incidents like this deserve to be mentioned? The story came out in a student newspaper "The Tab" and was picked up by the Telegraph (and the Mirror) but not the Cambridge News. If there was more general context to this topic, perhaps it would merit being mentioned; at present that does not seem to be the case. Mathsci (talk) 22:12, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Tab also runs stories like this.[4] The 2016 Telegraph article links to an article about a named individual from Queens College, Oxford that could not be reported on wikipedia, because it would be an obvious BLP violation. The banning of the Wyvern's "jelly party" by the Master and Fellows of Magdalene College is not mentioned on wikipedia. It has been reported in the press. Mathsci (talk) 23:01, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What matters is the most reliable source to publish the incident. In this case an internationally reliable paper, the Telegraph, published the story not just once, but furthermore a followup. This makes the story fulfil the notability and reliability criterion and should be included. In fact, this text is the only referenced text in the entire section of five paragraphs, and so following WP:RS we should first turn our attention to other text in this section. For example, another paragraph in this section describes how the College chef (named in violation of WP:BLP) oversees the intercollegiate Stewards' Cup. I think that we should first remove such unsourced information about the out-of-work activities of the College chef, rather than the only referenced text in the entire section that was twice featured in the international press. There are many other sections of text in the same section that are unsourced, trivial, and read like a College prospectus.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 17:46, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The (unnamed) drinking society is banned by the college and prohibited from having meetings on university or college property. The present content concerns five individuals and a student sub-culture which has very little to do with the functioning of St John's College. The source of this particular story is The Tab as indicated in the subsequent local and national newspaper reports. (There was also a report in the Daily News of India, but it was riddled with inaccuracies.) I still don't think this story merits being included in the article on St John's College, which concerns permanent aspects of the college. Incidents involving drunken or unruly students are not a recent phenomenon; they do not seem to have found their way into other wikipedia articles on academic institutions. In addition, apart from the link lad culture, I can find no information on wikipedia about drinking societies or "swap" parties. As your account seems to have been created with the main purpose of adding content about this very specialised topic, are you intending to write a wikipedia article on "student drinking societies" and "swap parties"? Mathsci (talk) 09:06, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I do not understand your general comments. The other information in the article is publicly available and easy to verify on the college's website, in their handbook/prospectus or the college magazine. It gives an anodyne, neutral and informative description of the college and was possibly edited by students. Mathsci (talk) 09:53, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The allegation made by talk that my account is a main purpose created for editing articles solely about drinking societies is not true. In fact out of all my edits only 5% relate to drinking societies, and those are only for this sentence in the St Johns article. I would therefore suggest that User talk:Mathsci withdraw this allegation and apologize for making it. Putting forward ad hominem allegations with no evidence detracts from any credibility that User talk:Mathsci has for taking part in this discussion, that I would also suggest that User talk:Mathsci now withdraws from.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 11:06, 8 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your editing conforms to WP:SPA fairly closely. Your very first edit was problematic. Mathsci (talk) 00:50, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(User talk:Mathsci) is making serious accusations and needs to provide definitive evidence of WP:SPA. Referring to a edit of (User talk:77LmTA6knQ6) out of hundreds does not comprise WP:SPA . Please refer to WP:SPA and either provide proof or return to a discussion about this current page on the basis of facts.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 10:58, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As no evidence of WP:SPA is forthcoming and (User talk:Mathsci) has withdrawn from the discussion I have reverted the text to the agreed version.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 09:27, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Evidently you are an individual with an axe to grind; a WP:POINT to make, which is why in your very first edit you inserted exactly the same scare quotes in the most prominent place you could find in the article. Instead of adding balanced content, you have preferred to revert to the shrill language of gutter journalism, with scare quotes and no context at all. Indeed it seems that any attempt to provide context—the nature of these university social events, their banning by colleges, their occurrence far from the established colleges—is not to your liking. You prefere to add WP:UNDUE content to shock the reader. There are four individuals involved in this minor event (it is, even if their conduct in private and in a drunken state was poor) wh have just started their third year as undergraduates. Your purpose here has been to single them out amongst undergraduates in Cambridge. Given your insistence on not representing their interests properly, I suspect that is a BLP violation. Please read the Varsity article below, written by a female Johnian who knows one of those concerned, to understand the possible problems. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 11:09, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't think we can be confident of the reporting in the national press. In the established university student magazine Varsity, a female third year undergraduate reading English at St John's has given her views on the incident and its aftermath. She has also described the reporting and misreporting in the national press, particularly the misleading headlines.[5] Mathsci (talk) 14:06, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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