Talk:Neo-psychedelia

Siouxsie and the Banshees

That Quietus article mentions psychedelic music as an impetus for their experimentation but never as as their actual genre. This quote from the gothic rock article sum it up best: "Siouxsie and the Banshees and The Cure tended to play the flanging guitar effect, producing a brittle, cold, and harsh sound that contrasted with their psychedelic rock predecessors" Simon Reynolds, 2005, page 426 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.202.207.92 (talk) 07:07, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

You are right, these sources don't indicate that they were psychedelic. It would have helped if you had put something like "sources do not support this assertion" in your first edit summary. When an ip user just deletes material it is usually vandalism. Thanks for the catch.--SabreBD (talk) 08:01, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

What matters is what reliable sources call them psychedelic :

Source 1: Simon Reynolds from his book "Rip it up :Post punk". Page 428. He wrote : 1982's Dreamhouse marked the Banshees'plunge into full-on mordern psychedelia.

Source2 : Paul Morley wrote in the notes of 1984's Hyæna (universal 2009, Hyæna reissue) : a psychedelic vision of pop.

Source 3: The Quietus wrote about the reissues of A kiss in the Dreamhouse (1982) and Hyæna (1984) : Siouxsie & The Banshees were one of the great British psychedelic bands. link here. Woovee (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I added the Reynolds cite and quoted Reynolds as I think that makes nature of the move to psychedelia clearer.--SabreBD (talk) 22:55, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Television

I'm not seeing why this band hasn't been included. The long, trippy guitar riffs that permeate and make up most of their songs definitely sound like a ton of the bands on this list from that same era.

Smashing Pumpkins

Their first two albums were most definitely psychedelic in nature, and they were always heavily influenced by such.

Edit warring / content dispute 2016

Ilovetopaint erased here two wp:reliable sources which are :

Paytress, Mark (November 2014), "Her Dark Materials", Mojo (252), p. 82 --> for Siouxsie and the Banshees and

"The Glove - Blue Sunshine". Entertainment weekly. 7 September 1990. Retrieved 5 October 2016. --> for The Glove

Both mention Neo-psychedelia for the groups Siouxsie and the Banshees and The Glove but their names were withdrawn once again from the article. Woovee (talk) 23:19, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

@Woovee: 1) What is the exact text written in the Mojo article? 2) Why is it notable that those two bands played neo-psychedelia?--Ilovetopaint (talk) 23:23, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

I could ask you to discuss the same thing for Echo & the Bunnymen and My Bloody Valentine or any other bands included in the article. You asked that sources specifically using the term "Neo-psychedelia" and not just the "psychedelic" adjective, were used for this article when mentionning bands. I did. Woovee (talk) 23:29, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

True, I made a mistake there. Here are the differences between namedropping MBV and the Glove:

1) Shoegaze is referred to as a subgenre of neo-psychedelia [1]

2) MBV is referred to as the progenitor of shoegaze [2]

3) One of the sources writes that "countless bands [were] influenced by MBV's neo-psychedelic bliss-blast".

Given all that, we can see why MBV is significant to the topic. Likewise with Echo & the Bunnymen, AllMusic cites them as one of several "major figures" in neo-psychedelia. In contrast, the only thing Ira Robbins' review of Blue Sunshine tells us is that the Glove's Blue Sunshine "integrates ... individual styles and neo-psychedelic noodling with mixed success". There are innumerable artists who have recorded albums by that description that one could add to the article. I don't see why Glove/Siouxsie should be given preferential treatment.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 23:46, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

The main genre for the Bunnymen and MBV are respectively post-punk and shoegazing. Allmusic is a good site when the articles are signed. As I previously mentioned, their article about Neo-psychedelia is unsigned. Anyway, Mojo and EW are two very RSs. There is no justification to put an abusive tag such as "{elucidate|reason=Why these artists specifically? What makes them notable}" next to Siouxsie and the banshees and The Glove. I don't know any other well-known acts/musicians who have been described as neo-psychedelic. Someone mentioned that Television (band) was, I'm gonna check this too. Woovee (talk) 00:09, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

"The main genre" - what? Of course Mojo and EW are reliable, but verifiability does not guarantee inclusion (WP:ONUS). You have to be able to demonstrate how the content enhances our understanding of the subject before it can be added. If all you want is for S&tB and the Glove to be acknowledged as a neo-psychedelic act, then simply add them to the List of neo-psychedelia artists.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 13:07, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

You don't have any wp:consensus to put this abusive tag. This page is not your wp:OWN. Earlier in this talk in 2012, people already agreed to include Siouxsie and the Banshees for instance. Your lack of culture towards these bands is so patent that you shouldn't contribute to this article. You obviously have never listened to those records, you put a tag to just create a suspicion that is inapproriate and partial. Woovee (talk) 15:39, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

I asked you two perfectly reasonable questions. Until this issue is addressed, either the tag remains or the content is removed. I don't need WP:CONSENSUS to place a tag, I just need an arguable reason (WP:DRNC). That I (supposedly) "lack culture" demonstrates exactly why it's a problem to include the sentence; this article is supposed to be written for people with "lack of culture" (WP:POPE). If you can't elucidate why S&tB/Glove are notable, then maybe you aren't quite the specialist you think you are - and if you can't find sources that elucidate, then maybe these artists aren't as essential to neo-psychedelia as you think they are (WP:NAMEDROP).

To me, the sentence reads like someone is trying to get me to listen to their favorite bands. It slows the article down to include things like "Oh, by the way, these guys also played neo-psychedelia music, hope you thought that was interesting!" (WP:DETAIL). Taken by itself, "the Glove embraced neo-psychedelia" (or "X is Y") is a trivial mention, and is thus non-notable to the main topic (WP:SIGCOV).

As for a 2012 consensus, I see nothing of the sort.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:21, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

I'd rather see that you want to put a blanket upon certain types of bands. In case you haven't noticed, the content present on this page is a bit trivial because it is a litany of names and there ain't any explanation. What matters is wp:RS and no wp:OR. You're wasting your time because your point of view doesn't stand. You're not a judge, this is why one puts sources, to offer the reader different opinions from different sources. Woovee (talk) 19:56, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

"Litany of names and there ain't any explanation" — I've already discussed the rationale for other artists' namedrops. Which part of "verifiability does not guarantee inclusion" don't you understand? Please don't bother responding unless you intend to answer my questions from 23:23, 6 October 2016. It's the least you could do after I answered yours.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 16:14, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Woovee has asked me to look into this dispute. I've taken a look, and I'm giving you both a warning for edit warring. This is a content dispute. Resolve your disagreements here on the talkpage not by reverting each other. You both want the same thing for the article: to have it provide accurate, neutral, and helpful information about Neo-psychedelia. Work toward a solution through discussion, not through edit warring. If either of you are getting angry, take a break from this article for a day or two in order to restore some perspective. When discussing, stick to talking about improving the article; avoid comments on each other like "Which part of "verifiability does not guarantee inclusion" don't you understand?" and "Your lack of culture towards these bands is so patent that you shouldn't contribute to this article."

As regards the content dispute itself, I agree with Woovee that this article needs some improvement, though that is true for nearly all articles on Wikipedia. So while true it's actually not that important - We deal with that as and when we can. On the whole, the points made by Ilovetopaint are more valid, and the links to guidelines and essays to support those points are helpful. It is worth reading the guidelines and essays to get a deeper understanding of what Ilovetopaint is saying. I don't wish to get bogged down in details as that would involve time-consuming research, but on a cursory glance the inclusion of The Glove doesn't appear justified. If Severin and Smith's project is significant in the development of Neo-psychedelia rather than include some elements of it (which is what the source says) then better sourcing is required. On the other hand, there is a discussion on this page regarding Siouxsie and the Banshees which offers some sources which seem to indicate that the band are regarded as a significant Neo-psychedelia band - The Quietus article offers a good starting point with the statement that "Siouxsie & The Banshees were one of the great British psychedelic bands"[3]. There seems room for investigation rather than dismissal.

I suggest you folks bury the hatchet, and agree to work to improve the article rather than snipe at each other and edit war. You both have something to offer. Share what you have and listen with respect to each other. I would say to Ilovetopaint to look more into the claim that Siouxsie and the Banshees are significant. And I would say to Woovee to look more closely at the guidelines and essays that have been offered. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 18:35, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. The problem with the Quietus source is that it never uses the term "neo-psychedelia" (or "acid punk"). I've tried my best looking for sources that directly and explicitly speak about the genre. Many bands are given those labels, but little is said about what they actually contributed. Sometimes people write about post-1980s psychedelic rock revivals, but that's content that belongs to the Psychedelic rock article. Just like we can't mix up "new prog", "neo-prog", and "post-prog", we can't mix up "psychedelic rock" with "neo-psychedelia".

I would love to add more info about Siouxsie and their role in neo-psychedelia, but it's hard when I don't know exactly what I'm looking for. That is why I beg the question: why are they notable?--Ilovetopaint (talk) 19:30, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree to compromise and to withdraw the quote about The Glove as it has been suggested although the album is entirely psychedelic. The band was on LSD when recording. But I haven't found yet a better source. Maybe this sentence about TG would have more its place on psychedelic music? Woovee (talk) 23:41, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

The question why are they notable about S&TB is incongruous. It is said in the lead of the article, "Neo-psychedelia is a diverse subgenre of alternative/indie rock that originated in the 1970s as an outgrowth of the British post-punk scene", or S&TB are one of the pioneers of post-punk and as they went psychedelic in the early 1980s, a few years after their debut, they logically should be mentioned in this article.

The Uncut (magazine) source by David Stubbs clearly mentions "Neo-psychedelic" about them:

Journalist David Stubbs remarked that Siouxsie and the Banshees's music in 1982 had got "neo-psychedelic flourishes" with "pan-like flutes" and "treated loops".[8]Woovee (talk) 23:27, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

"S&TB are one of the pioneers of post-punk" — according to whom?

Sources

--Ilovetopaint (talk) 20:58, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I wrote, "S&TB are one of the pioneers of post-punk". Do you have problems of attention ? Woovee (talk) 21:09, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, you did, sorry, I misread again. My point still stands. Where's your citation? You could mention that S&TB pioneered post-punk in the article and then place the specific album in a footnote.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 21:12, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be wp:SYNTH. This shouldn't be repeated in this article when its already included and well sourced at Post-punk, Siouxsie and the banshees and The Scream (album), where it's actually relevant to begin with? I'm pondering.

Anyway, following your suggestion:

Siouxsie and the Banshees were one of the pioneers of post-punk[7] : journalist David Stubbs remarked that their music in 1982 had got "neo-psychedelic flourishes" with "pan-like flutes" and "treated loops".[8]

• source [7] Nigel Williamson (27 November 2004). "Siouxsie & the Banshees (subscription required)". The Times.
• source [8]Stubbs, David (June 2004), "Siouxsie and the Banshees - A Kiss in the Dreamhouse album reissue, Uncut. ["Neo-Psychedelia" was used for their 1982's album 'A Kiss in the Dreamhouse]

Woovee (talk) 00:15, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Another point, this quote from Chrome's singer here is not from a music historian or a professional journalist. Had it been a quote and the opinion of the journalist, it would have been relevant but it is not. Namedropping bands like Devo who has never been tagged neo-psychedelic or even psychedelic, well at least not on wikipedia and at Devo, is something to be avoid. Woovee (talk) Woovee (talk) 19:24, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your point is. He is technically a "historian" of sorts — he was there when it was happening. By virtue of that fact alone, he has somewhat more credibility than most other journalists. And he's not talking about neo-psychedelia, he's talking about acid punk, which is within the scope of neo-psychedelia. Of course, nobody today considers Devo "psychedelic", or most new wave for that matter, but that didn't seem to be the case in 1977.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 20:50, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

This quote is then out of subject. Woovee (talk) 21:07, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

But it's... not? Acid punk = neo-psychedelia.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 21:09, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

"Acid-punk"(coming from a US Billboard source of 1978) is an obsolete term today: music Historians such as Paul Morley, Clinton Heylin, Simon Reynolds, have never used it in their recent books about the music of the late 1970s early1980s. This is why the 'Acid-punk' term shouldn't appear in the lead anymore, it would be better to mention it in the first section. Woovee (talk) 21:41, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

1. The fact is that Acid punk redirects to Neo-psychedelia because of that Billboard source. So readers who look up "acid punk" will expect to find the subject discussed here in some detail (WP:SCOPE).
2. "Acid punk" might be "an obsolete term" simply because Morley, Heylin, and Reynolds preferred "neo-psychedelia". In any case, "acid punk" being used for Devo and Pere Ubu is no more obsolete than "neo-psychedelia" being used exclusively for post-punk acts, which is precisely what the term denoted until the early 1990s.
3. Your claim that "music historians have never used 'acid punk' in their recent books" is demonstrably false. I can find one mention in Rip It Up.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 02:15, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

1. No, you distort the events: "acid punk" appears in a quote from a member of Chrome (band). Reynolds didn't ever qualify them as such in his book, he has just reproduced a quote from a musician of this band. It looks like Chrome's guitarist Helios Creed tried to create a scene, trying to bombard this term in interviews, but as no other group recognized this banner, it fell flat. There was never a scene called "acid punk". Journalists and music historians analyse the events, musicians play. Musicians never invent labels, it comes from critics. "acid punk" should not be mentioned in the lead, it is wp:undue weight. BTW, is it you who wrote "acid punk" on the article of Chrome (band), I see that you also contributed to this article. So it is probably you who made "acid punk" redirect to "neo-psychedelia". Woovee (talk) 12:37, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
2. @ Ilovetopaint the issue hasn't been resolved. wp:edit war is not finished. you are making wp:PUSH. I strongly disagree to include Devo in the article. The journalist wrote "To an extent" at the begining of his sentence, he ponders if Devo might be uncluded in it. And you haven't replied to my request about SATB yet. Woovee (talk) 13:01, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

wp:NAMEDROP is not a Wikipedia policy or guideline. Woovee (talk) 19:24, 10 October 2016 (UT

It's not, but consensus says that self-sourcing examples are to be avoided, which is the same thing.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 20:50, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I mentioned this, because you cared to drop this litany of WPs. There ain't any wp:OR in the David Stubbs'quote and no wp:OR is the wikipedia policy per excellence, sorry. Woovee (talk) 21:11, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

The issue was never about WP:OR, it was about WP:ONUS.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 21:15, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, it is appreciated.Woovee (talk) 23:28, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

As EdJohnston has protected the article, and MSGJ has got involved I am taking the article off my watch-list. I don't have much spare time these days, and as there are two other admins now involved, you don't need me as well. I wish you both well in resolving this dispute. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:35, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 9 October 2016

1. Undo this edit.
   Rationale: The content talks about the origins of the term "acid punk", which is an alternative name for "neo-psychedelia". The rationale for removal implies that the source is self-published, which is false ("this guy is a musician he is not a professional journalist"). The source is actually a 1993 interview conducted by Stuart Barr for the magazine Convulsion, which is perfectly within the bounds of WP:RS. The interview is available to read online.
2. Restore <ref name=AllMusicNeoP/> to the end of this claim: Towards the end of the late 1970s, bands of the post-punk scene, including the Teardrop Explodes, Echo & the Bunnymen, The Soft Boys, became major figures of neo-psychedelia."

Thanks! Ilovetopaint (talk) 19:09, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

As you have been an active participant in the recent edit war, I will not action any requests without support from other editors. If you are struggling to find others to weigh in, you could try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music. Regards — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:24, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

@MSGJ, I only agree to add <ref name=AllMusicNeoP/> to the end of this claim: Towards the end of the late 1970s, bands of the post-punk scene, including the Teardrop Explodes, Echo & the Bunnymen, The Soft Boys, became major figures of neo-psychedelia." as it has been reverted by accident. Woovee (talk) 23:46, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:08, 10 October 2016 (UTC)