Talk:Lumbee

Disputed Origins

Let's honestly present the dispute over Lumbee origins. The 1790 census pretty conclusively shows that the "Lumbee" are originally descended from mixed race unions of European colonists and African slaves. The theory of Indian origin was created after the Civil War when the North Carolina authorities were trying to stop violence between the "coloreds" of Robeson County and the Klan. It is likely that a few scattered Indians joined the colored settlements of Robeson County, but the "Lumbee" are not a tribe. In fact, the "Lumbee" name was made up in the 1950s.

More on Disputed Origins

Blood group frequeny analyses and other genetics tests were conducted in Robeson County on Lumbee subjects in the 1960s and published in an academic journal in the early 1970s. These showed that the Lumbees—biologically—were only about 10% American Indian, about 48% African, and 42% white or European in origin. That is pretty overwhelmingly non-Indian. Especially in consideration of the historical record.

In the more than 110 years of scholars and experts researching the Lumbees’ history and culture, there is not one documented Croatan, or Cheraw or Peedee, or Cherokee, or Tuscarora ancestor to be found among the Lumbee--or if there is, the Lumbees have hidden it pretty well. And why would they do that? Yet, one independent researcher working only from the mid-1980s to the present has shown that Lumbee ancestors were migrating into Robeson County from various parts of Virginia and northern North Carolina between circa 1740 and 1810, and that they were of African and English colonial descent. This ancestral group was variously considered a lawless mob of free Negroes and mulattoes, and other reports state there were “no Indians” in the Lumbee area. Funny though, how Lumbees and their supporters just sort of shrug this off, play the “racist” card, suggest anyone who challenges them is ignorant, and argue that “Negro” and “mulatto” census designations really meant Indian, but that some secret scheme concealed that. If insisted upon, I can cite numerous sources. But I doubt they’d be read with an open mind anyhow because I’ve spoken with a couple of very defensive—to the point of hostility—“Lumbees” who just kept insisting I was wrong, did not know what I was talking about, had been misinformed, and dared me to “come to Pembroke and say that” intimating I’d be severely beaten or worse. For now, I suggest that Lumbee origins are not simply disputed, but quite hotly contested. An Indian ancestor or two? Sure, that is likely. I’d guess many other southern families could make that claim, too.

Lumbee ethno-genesis needs to be carefully scrutinized in the full historical context available; what I can see in the 1860s, 1870s, and into the 1880s, is a “mulatto” community rallying around opposition to be classed as blacks. I know of someone right now who, ironically, set out many years ago to prove to a nay-saying college professor that the Lumbees were a real Indian tribe, but who was forced by the overwhelming evidence encountered to reassess that position and ultimately conclude that Lumbee “Indian” ethnicity is the result of politics. “Indian” status was, apparently, at least better than “black” status. This political game continues today, with the Lumbees still pressing for recognition from the U.S. government for full participation in services reserved for indigenous treaty tribes. But the vast majority of Lumbee ancestors were not members of a native American nation, but immigrants—free and slave.

Language research seems to corroborate that the pronunciation of Lumbee English has roots in a Native American language. See for example Torbert “Tracing Native American language history through consonant cluster reduction: the case of Lumbee English” or Walt Wolfram, Becky Childs, and Benjamin Torbert, “Tracing language history through consonant cluster reduction: comparative evidence from isolated dialects.”. A reviews of both papers is available here. The papers shows how generation differences (Lumbees have come into full contact with mainstream American English only recently) in consonant cluster reduction (CCR) indicate that Lumbee English is evolving their CCR in a pattern typical for other Native American languages towards that of standard English. Some influence of African American dialects is possible but deemed unlikely by the authors. Wadoli Itse 20:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Dispute? What makes anyone think that there is a dispute? Lumbees certainly don't dispute their own existence. I'd like to know though, what makes the person with the "origins" query an authority on Lumbee authenticity? Here's an example: "Lumbee" was not "made up" in the 1950s as he/she claims. A white Robesonian waxed unevenly eloquent in a song about the "Lumbee River" published almost one hundred years earlier though. Of course, the white Robesonian minstrel could have invented the term "Lumbee." There is always that possibility. Or, perhaps he mispronounced "Lumbee," for "Lumber" as someone irresponsibly speculated that Lumbees had done at some earlier point in this article's patching together. But then, the Carolinas are bogged down in water -- pocosins, swamps, creeks, rivers, you name it. And wouldn't you know it, many of the rivers end with "ee" -- Peedee, Santee, Wateree, . . . oh, and Lumbee.

Then too, there certainly is nothing "conclusive" about census enumeration, both back in the day and now. I can remember the day when JFK was assassinated, the March on Washington, the Trail of Tears II, and the takeover of the BIA building in Washington DC, but I've only appeared on one federal census. Does this mean that I do not exist, or that I am only 6 years old? I was born and raised in the U.S. At birth, I was racially classified one way, and yet another classification was ascribed to me when I entered grade school five years later. My driver's license and social security card tell yet another story. So much for "conclusive" racial classification. Please refer to any one of a number of citations provided in the "references" section that address the historical complexity of racial classification in what is now the U.S.

I've even submitted a more historically accurate framework that historians and anthropologists use to effectively elucidate the historical processes that make the 16th, 17th, and 18th century Southeastern Native landscape in general, and ancestral Lumbees in particular more appreciable-- that of ethnogenesis. Moreover, I substantially added to a list of references, having found only five citations ostensibly intended to verify any and all claims that were being made in the body of the article. And yet, though all of this is much more than the person who posed the query has offered, this doesn't seem to be enough. Hmm. Those pesky double standards.

Well, how about the theory of origins offered by Hamilton McMillan. If McMillan's theory was a fiction, it was McMillan who chose to disseminate it in the 1880s. Nor was McMillan the first to endorse this theory, truth be told. Rest assured, none of the proponents of a "Lost Colony" theory who published their ruminations on the topic before McMillan were Native. And yes, ancestral Lumbees certainly used the "origins" theory to carve out a better political situation for themselves. But then, if you really want to address the creation and manipulation of "invented" traditions, why not take on the "discovery" of the "New World," "the first Thanksgiving," the Americas as "virgin land" and "wilderness," or one of the most popular of American fictions, "manifest destiny"?

On the other hand, many of the oral histories recounted by Indian families in the late eighteenth and early twentieth centuries have been verified by anthropologists, historians, and linguists. Even those anthropologists who were largely informed by the racialized science of eugenics and who came to Robeson County in the 1930s concluded that they performed their analysis in an Indian community. Mind you, some friends you just don't want to have. But even these "objectively trained" scientists that "origin" types love to cite believed that they were dealing with Indians. Throughout the 1930s, the head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, John Collier, the Collier administration, and one of the anthropologist that Collier sent to Robeson County, Ella Deloria, who just happened to be Standing Rock Sioux (is that Indian enough?) believed that they were dealing with Indians. Ella was not the only Deloria to visit Robeson County. Her nephew, the Native intellectual, scholar, lawyer, theologian, activist, and author of "When Custer Died For Your Sins," Vine Deloria, Jr., was a regular and beloved visitor to the homeland of the Lumbee in Robeson County.

The much more recent research of linguists and linguistic anthropologists is fascinating and extremely revealing. Those who are wedded to the notion of sole descent from African slaves and English colonials will be disappointed by their findings however. NC State, and Walt Wolfram in particular has lead research into the "origins" of Lumbee English. Those who have carried out their research on language transference and use pretty much agree that the pattern typical for speakers of other Native American languages who adopt English is replicated in Robeson County by Lumbee speakers who speak a dialect distinct from both whites and blacks. This is not to say that Africans and Scots-Irish migrants (Lowery, Oxendine, for example are not English names) did not intermarry with Indians in North Carolina. They did. But then, the Lumbee have never denied this either.

What has been denied Lumbees, not by the state of North Carolina, nor increasingly by other Indians who have had the chance to interact with Lumbees, nor the majority of academics, Native and non-Native alike who have focused their research on Lumbees or other Indian groups in the Southeast, is authenticity by those few individuals who wield the question of "origins" as a weapon of a much touted, if rarely achieved "objectivity." Not coincidentally, Indians situated east of the Mississippi are their primary target. There are those who hurl the racialized and detribalizing question of "origins" at non-State and/or non-federally recognized California Indian tribal nations as well. They are similarly charged with being peoples without "origins," and thus, fraudulent descendents of, in their case, whites and Mexicans, or more puzzling still, Indians. The ancestors of their particular oral traditions had long since been pronounced "extinct." They continue to be assailed by those who claim as "conclusive," multiple "extinction," and/or "vanishing" narratives generated by colonial administrations established to advance the settlement of non-Native peoples and document the erasure of Native peoples.

The Lumbee have chosen to meet their complex history as a Native people head on. For almost two decades, historians, linguists, sociologists, archaeologists, and anthropologists from UNC-Pembroke, UNC-Chapel-Hill, Duke, NC State, New York University, and Harvard University have worked cooperatively with the Lumbee on various aspects of their historical and contemporary experience. But more significantly, the Lumbee as well as other Native peoples feel there are far more important and urgent issues that need to be dealt with, such as land claims, water rights, fishing rights, religious freedom, the protection of sacred places, repatriation, and a host of others. Certainly, there are many Lumbees at the forefront of efforts that address these issues. Yet, how is it that I never see "origin" folks advocating for and fighting on behalf of Native peoples on any one of these issues that are far more relevent to the welfare of Native peoples the world over? Granted, this is a forum for those who opt to submit what they claim to know about a particular issue to an online encyclopedia. But then, having responded to your query, how about an answer to mine? Oh, and one more question: Who are you, and more critically still, what qualifies you to make pronouncements on, and question the authenticity of a people you seem to know so very little about?

Cheers,

LumbeeRiver 01:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks LumbeeRiver and Wadoli Itse for helping me to figure out why these demands for accountability viz-a-vis questions of authenticity trouble me so much. And, LumbeeRiver is correct to question the qualifications of someone who fails to meet their own criteria of accountability; someone who submits spurious claims and unverifiable information. Usually, people like this don't come from academic backgrounds, and even if they do, they fail to remember that well-contextualized, citable scholarship is necessary in an online encyclopedia entry. The statement, "the 1790 census pretty conclusively shows. . ." is an excellent case in point. LumbeeRiver apprehends the issue of racial classification in four concise sections, "History," "Post-Contact Rupture," "The Question of Origins," and "Ethnogenesis," AND provides extensive citations-- unusual in the vast majority of Wikipedia articles. Did the person who initiated this discussion not read these sections first? Perhaps he/she did not understand these sections or their purpose? Or, perhaps, she or he understood all too well what it was that LumbeeRiver was doing? Something has to account for the query above and the number of irresponsible statements he/she makes that are clearly borne out of ignorance. For those of us who actually earned doctorates in areas like history, law, philosophy, linguistics, archaeology, sociology, or political science, and better yet, happen to specialize in the histories of given Native peoples or other ethnic groups, the specious statements made above are downright infuriating as well as insulting.

His or her brand of arrogance is the more egregious when it comes from someone who demands a call for "honesty" even as they create a "dispute" where none exists. The Lumbee are well known in academic circles and in Indian Country as an American Indian tribe, and yet as LumbeeRiver points out, most, if not all the American Indian tribes WEST of the Mississippi have fairly good, pretty neutral Wikipedia entries. None of us should, be we academics or not, suddenly lose the obligation to submit encyclopedic academic entries outside his or her field without being able to verify our claims. In going back to archived entries, "Bogdon," "Pokey5945," and "ProfBanks," are all guilty of making similar spurious statements without providing citations by current mainstream scholars who've actually gone to the trouble of conducting painstaking primary source research that they unfortunately see fit to cannibalize, misinterpret, misquote, and spin into a delegitimizing narrative. LumbeeRiver and Wadoli Itse have been more than accountable, both in their article entries and in their responses to this discussion page. Neither they nor the Lumbee have anything to prove.

ZIGGYC

140.247.74.102 00:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Famous Lumbee

Have you all ever heard of Tatanka...he wrestled in the WWF back in the 1990's...his real name is Chris Chavis.

I am moving the following to the discussion section until a more detailed account of famous Lumbee can be compiled. It is sort of irrelevant in such a short stub-like article:

"An example of a Lumbee who has made himself known in 'show business' is Anybody Killa, (Native Rapper for Psychopathic Rapper, both solo and a part of the sub-group project, Dark Lotus)".

Perhaps it would be better to more fully explain the Lumbee, those of you experts out there, than simply name one or two. --Tuttobene 02:22, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm trying...I started and will tell other Lumbees to contribute. Biggest name of Lumbee descent: Heather Locklear. Though Lumbees don't always consider her "one of them"--mcm

Kelvin Sampson, head coach of the University of Oklahoma men's basketball team, is a Lumbee. He guided the Sooners to an appearance in the Final Four of the men's NCAA basketball tournament in 2002. --libertysooner

Clint Lowery (Formerly of Sevendust) and Corey Lowery of the Band, Dark New Day --lumbeecheraw75

DNA

With modern advances in DNA and genealogy, would it not be possible to take samples from present day Lumbee and Lost Colony relatives from European family trees? By doing this the controversy might be settled, or only extended.

Here is a link to a recent story on the approach of using DNA and genealogy together:[1]

Samples from the Lumbee should be easy enough. Does anyone know if there are any identified relatives of the lost colony, that could be traced for a sample?

--68.255.239.192 22:12, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. Best I could find was a link on archaelogy findings http://www.lost-colony.com/Buxtoncrew.html I did change the article a bit since it said there was no evidence while even the article on Roanoke Island mentions the evidence... mcm

discrepancy regarding the klansmen description

There is a discrepancy regarding the klansmen description on this page and that on the page for 1958. One says there was 5,000 klansman, the other that there were a handful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958: January 18 - Armed Lumbee Native Americans chased off an estimated 5,000 Klansmen and supporters at the town of Maxton, North Carolina.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumbee: On January 18, 1958, armed Lumbee Native Americans chased off a handful of Klansmen and supporters led by grand wizard Catfish Cole at the town of Maxton, North Carolina.

cleaning up a little

I hope no one minds if I just clean up the prose a little. I wont change or add information at the moment, though I hope to come back and do that too eventually. --Elizabeth of North Carolina 02:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Lumbee v. KKK battle

User:Tom by the Lumbee River, what is your source on the KKK and Lumbee numbers (and how heavily each side was armed) and the name of the KKK leader? Wadoli Itse 19:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Article Overlooks a Broad Corpus of Contrary Sources

This article is clearly biased towards the "Lumbee" position. Researchers should make reference to articles such as: Houghton, Richard H., III. “The Lumbee: ‘not a tribe.’ ” The Nation 257.21 (20 December 1993): 750 (Houghton was Counsel on Native American Affairs of the US House of Representatives from 1989 to 1994). For a full, academic treatment of the argument that the "Lumbee" do not qualify for federal recognition, see the dissenting views in: "U.S. Congress, House Committee on Natural Resources," Report Together with Dissenting Views to Accompany H.R. 334, 103rd Cong., 1st sess., 14 October 1993, H. Rpt. 290."

• • I don't see how two documents constitute a "broad corpus," but I do agree with you that dissenting views should be in here. Will you please summarize what is contained in these documents, instead of just citing them?Verklempt 22:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits

User:68.210.195.80, I appreciate that you are trying to improve the article, but you deleted several paragraphs of properly sourced material. If you wish to improve the article, don't do it deleting what's already there. I don't have time right now to go back through all your edits, so I reverted to restore the removed information.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Disputed Article Tag

Of course, we are all intellectually challenged. Even the editor who goes by the name 71.255.218.156. What this entity fails to recognize is that the version of this article that is posted now is so radically different from a version that was posted several months ago, that this alone raises a red flag. If the edits since May 2006 were as extensively cited as the previous material, 71.255.218.156 could make a case for a balanced revision of the article. But this is not the case. In all fairness, until 71.255.218.156 and other editors can successfully reincorporate and respond to the germane and extensive deleted material, the tag "Disputed Article" really does need to stand. Sloppy revisions of this kind is what makes Wikipedia both suspect AND a terrific albeit negative teaching tool for university profs. In explaining to history majors "what not to do" in my history writing seminar, I will be using this article as one of many "bad history" examples to be found on wikipedia, and why, as a matter of university policy, students are not permitted to resort to or cite wikipedia articles.Gallay 20:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• • I deleted much of the older article. Why? Because it was POV, unsourced, and because the article exceeds the WP size recommendations. If you, Gallay, have a specific grievance, bring it forward here for negotiation. Your complaint above is too vague to be constructive.Verklempt 21:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I would bet the earlier version was much better than this piece of propaganda. The current version is definitely POV and racist. I have voiced my views and so far nothing has been done to remedy this. What gives this dude the right to take it upon himself to change an entire artice when even peons like me can see the flaws? Why are only certain people allocated the title of Wikipedia gods while the rest of us who do not have the power to change the article, have to suffer the consequences? The present article also has much POV with such vague statements as ... broad corpus of evidence to support that the Lumbee tribe are not eligible for federal recognition. And, there is no evidence to support the claim of being Native American. This article contradicts itself because later it points out the evidence that the BIA have determined on at least 8 occasions/visits that were are a Native American tribe. Swanton, Sider, Campisi, and other anthropologists, have presented strong proof of our Cheraw/Eastern Siouan heritage. Verklempt, can we have a bit of coffee talk? Have you ever been to Robeson County? Have you spent any time with the Lumbee people? Its like me popping up and saying I'm an expert and will write books about the culture of Java. If I am not part of that culture, I could never claim to be an expert. Me? I'm an enrolled member of the Lumbee tribe and am a direct descendant of King Robert Locklear, chief of the Cheraw nation. My grandfather and many other Lumbees before the 1970's were denied many rights of "WHITE" individuals. But, my grandfather and many other Lumbee fought their whole lives to be viewed with dignity and respect as Native people. Wikipedia is viewed by perhaps thousands of people a day. Its unfortunate that the Lumbee not only have to fight for their rights, but wage a PR battle about misinformation presented about us in media such as this. I also dispute this article. I will revise and respond in the future. Signed Arvis Boughman, author Herbal Remedies of the Lumbee Indians, McFarland Publishing, 2003.

• • Specific examples can be discussed on this talk page, and acceptable revisions worked out. I agree with you about the "broad corpus" statement. I requested that the editor who wrote that clarify his statement, but he hasn't yet. But beyond that, vague, sweeping complaints do not constitute constructive criticism. I disagree that there is strong proof of Cheraw ancestry. Sider and Campisi are not objective observers. They were paid by the Lumbee tribe to help obtain federal recognition. Swanton was making a wild guess, based on a few days of superficial research in encyclopedias.Verklempt 04:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

What kind of research are you citing, Verklempt, about Swanton et al. being encyclopedic anthropologists. Are you telling me respected anthropologists such as Swanton and Sider conducted their research by reading the encyclopedia? I'm sure the individuals at the BIA and Smithsonian would love to hear about this discovery. Please. Aside from that, Sider and Campisi conducted their research long before the Lumbee approached them as possible witnesses for the Lumbee federal recognition act. By the way, thanks for support on the "broad corpus statement". There's many other accusations/statements that need to be "fixed" in this narrative. Arvis

• • You can read Swanton's research notes in his collection at the NAA in Suitland, MD. His Lumbee folder is very thin, and contains mainly notes from the various books he consulted. His only primary source was the census, which cannot prove Cheraw ancestry. Sider was working as a political activist since he first arrived in Robeson, according to his own writing. I find his research unreliable, because he hides inconvenient data. For example when Sider reported the story of Preston Locklear's racist abuse of his own kin, Sider left out the names. Sider gives some unfounded speculation about the Lumbee Jones family being related to an Indian guy in SC near the Georgia border. Meanwhile, Sider doesn't report that the Lumbee Jones family descends from slaves in Anson County, NC. This kind of thing makes me skeptical of Sider. Can you tell me how Campisi was involved with Lumbees before the petition drive? My understanding is that he makes his living by consulting for unrecognized tribes. He's done a lot of them, and told a lot of whoppers in the process.Verklempt 00:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• • • Swanton's research on the "Croatan" (1933) included maps (Herbert)and newspaper articles (SC gazette). His rough notes about Lumbee surnames and oral history disprove your shoddy inadequate research assertions about Swanton. You are also mistaken about only census information being used. Before Swanton, OM McPherson in Indians of North Carolina: Letter from the Secretary of the Interior 1914 assumed that the the Indians living in the Lumbee River basin were amalgamated with the Cheraw. Ethel Stephens Arnett, historian and author The Saura (Cheraw)and Keyauwee Indians in the Land that Became. . . 1975 also supports this assertion. Finally, Frank G. Speck (anthropologist), in regards to oral history, in his article The Catawba Nation and Its Neighbors (1939) interviews the last Catawba language native speaker,Margaret Brown, she states that the Croatans were once part of the Catawba tribe but left to avoid the plague (smallpox). She is referring to the Cheraw which also are the forebearers of many modern day Catawba. This fact is also confirmed by Lumbee oral history. BTW where is the backup for your Jones' family assertion? In 1831, right before the Cherokee removal it was North Carolina law that a free Negro OR (I repeat OR again) a free person of color who is convicted of an offense . . . could be hired out. This law led to the tied mule incidents. The majority of all Native Americans remaining N.C. in the 1830's were misclassified as free persons of color in 1831. BTW, Sider as well as Campisi are well respected in the academic community. Are you? Vernon Cooper (Lumbee healer), the Chavis family, and the Locklear family etc. trace their lineage back to Marlboro County, South Carolina when the Cheraw sold their land and moved into Robeson County. Your accusations concerning Campisi are again unsubstantiated as is much of this article. Tell me what other group of people than Native Americans have to substantiate their background. Arvis — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.149.228.13 (talk • contribs) Put four tilde makrs to sign your Wikipedia name properly.
  • You can research the Jones family's slave history in Anson Co records. I've never seen any documentation of a "tied mule incident". This seems to be an invention of Sider's, a story he heard that he never bothered to substantiate. That's another reason to be careful in taking him at face value. I'm not sure what your grievance is with this article. You haven't pointed out any specific errors in the article itself.Verklempt 16:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
    • • How many Jones' are there in the U.S., Verklempt, millions maybe? IF YOU ARE THE ONE THROWING OUT FALSE ASSERTIONS, HAVE THE DECENCY TO BACK THEM UP. IT'S NOT MY RESPONSBILITY TO RESEARCH YOUR FALSE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST THE JONES FAMILY. IT SHOULD BE YOUR JOB, MR./MRS. "I TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO CHANGE THE WHOLE ORIGINAL ARTICLE BECAUSE I FEEL I AM THE ONLY LUMBEE EXPERT IN THE ENTIRE WORLD" person. My great Aunt Mirilda Hardin was one victim of the tied mule incidents. The law enforcement officials took all of her land. I have several grievanaces with this article: 1) the broad corpus statement which we've already discussed 2) The statement, "While some SMALL degree of Indian ancestory is plausible. . ." 3) The inaccurate information presented by Heinegg and DeMarce 3) The omission that all remaining Native Americans after removal were misclassified as "free persons of color" 4) The blanket statement in the first paragraph that makes it sound like all Lumbee are a mixture of three races. Eastern Native Peoples bore the first brunt of the European onslaught and yes even among the Cherokee and Seminole there is some "race mixing". Yes there is some European and perhaps a bit of African American blood in some Lumbee. But, I don't think its fair to lump us all in one basket. Arvis

• • We can document many government takings of land by courts for non-payment of taxes or other court costs. But I've never seen a single "tied mule" case documented. (2) I don't see a problem with the "plausible" sentence. You're not arging that Indian ancestry is implausible, so where's the problem? (3a) You don't say what Heinegg and Demarce have written that's inaccurate. These two authors hew much closer to the historical data than any other writer on the topic. (3b) Your claim here is simply incorrect, the Catawba and Cherokee tribes being two local examples to the contrary. (4) I agree with your concern about generalization, but to say that all Lumbees have Indian ancestry would also be an over-generalization. It seems to me that the current version is a reaonable statement of the historical facts.Verklempt 20:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

• • • Do you think that in corrupt Robeson County land or law enforcement records would state outright that land was taken because of a contrived incident of a stolen mule, hog, or chickens, etc.? I'm sure politically correct terms such as tax debt etc. would be used in the official records. If you know anything about Robeson County, you would know that coverup and corruption, especially by law enforcement officials, was the name of the game. So my part of my "argiement (sic.)" on the "plausible" sentence deals also with the word "SOME" and "SMALL." The Lumbee, presently on the tribal rolls, have to prove their descent from an individual on the pre-1900 documentation. The Lumbee, are cousins, tribally speaking, of the Catawba and Waccamaw-Siouan. In any discussion about southeastern ethnology, it is not only unfair but discriminatory to single out one group for ridicule. If you are talking about multi-racial Native Americans, then the "argiements" do apply to the Cherokee and the Catawba. I have worked among the Eastern Band for the past three years and observed the racial characteristics. So, my take on this truth would be "reonable" (sic.). I disagree about with Heinegg and Demarce's statement pertaining to how the Lumbee are the result of the union between African American and European American. Some Lumbees may have migrated down the great Native American trading road between Virginia and Charleston, SC. Robert Brown, great grandson of Margaret Brown (Catawba), points out Robeson County was mid-way on this trading path and it would be a logical deduction that Siouan and some other Native refugee groups would settle in the shelter of the Lumbee River swamps. I submit that in no way shape or form can Heinegg and Demarce's shoddy and inadequate research prove the Lumbees were the result of of African American and European American unions. The surnames assertion by them is refuted by the fact that the names they mention are common names found in a large number over tidewater Virginia and eastern NC. Where is your documentation negating the fact that "all Lumbees have Indian ancestry." I don't understand what your problem is with the Lumbees. I won't even begin to speculate. However, I stand by my original assertion that this article is HOGWASH and highly disputed. If WIKIPEDIA really wants to put in an unbiased/quality article about the Lumbee, WIKIPEDIA needs to seek permission to copy the WORLD BOOK ENCYCLOPEDIA's article on the Lumbee. The World Book article contains no racial slurs, opinion statements, and is factually based unlike this piece of garbage. I AGAIN DISPUTE THIS ARTICLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yanire kida ya (See you down the road in the Lumbee trad lang.)

                               Arvis

• • I don't see why we should throw out Heinegg and Demarce's research just because you don't like their conclusions. They have established the genealogical linkages to the extent the data permit, and in many cases their arguments are overwhelming. Reasonable people may object to one of Heinegg's genealogical links here and there, but the bulk of his work is nearly undeniable. There is no competing genealogy on the table. Even if there were, that would not justify removing any mention of such an established and honored work from this article.

I am detecting a whiff of the internalized racism that is so common among people who insist on vigorously denying any African or slave ancestry. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Lumbee ancestors are described as black, negro, colored, free people of color, etc., in every record they created prior to 1885. They also self-identified as one or the other of these terms in all of these pre-85 records. This is exactly why there is a controversy here. It's because there is a contradiction between how the earlier generations identified, and the generations since 1885. There is no such contradiction in the Catawba and Cherokee histories. If Lumbees were an Indian tribe prior to 1885, you'd think someone would have noticed, and that evidence would exist. It exists for the Catawbas and Cherokees.Verklempt 01:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The Catawbas are a SOUTH Carolina tribe. Most remaining Cherokees were identified by the state as "free persons of color" That's my arguement. I've heard our elders state that there ancestors were afraid because of threatened execution of beatings to speak their language, hold their dances, and in any way/shape/form celebrate our culture. It wasn't cool to be Indian in the 19th century. Arvis

• • Just a few days ago you were claiming kinship to the Catawbas, and now you seem to be arguing that they are irrelevant because they live across the state line, only about a hundred miles or so away. That's silly. They are still a counter example to your false contention that all Indians were regasrded as FPC. Your claim that most Cherokees were FPCs is simply false. There is no evidence to support this, and all of the historical works on the Cherokees contradict your assertion. The Catawbas and Cherokees never had to hide their identity, so why should anyone believe that the Lumbee ancestors did? Are you saying that the Lumbee ancestors lacked the courage that the Cherokees and Catawbas had? I don't believe that.Verklempt 21:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• • You miss my point entirely. In the 1830's most remaining Native Americans in NORTH CAROLINA were misclassified as free persons of color. I don't know about South Carolina. Verklempt, our people have never lacked courage, but in the 18th and 19th centuries, survival was the name of the game for Native people in the southeast. Believe what you will. But, with entire tribes being wiped off the face of the map during this time period (i. e. Wateree, Cape Fear, Sugaree, Saxapahaw, Waxhaw, Tutelo, Mattamuskeet, etc.),and over 80% of North Carolina native peoples exterminated, hiding in a swamps, mountainous areas,and in fact hiding your identity was not only smart but necessary. Even members of the Cherokee began dressing as Europeans, owning slaves,and operating as much like individuals of the Euro-centric society as possible. Another note about the Cherokee. In the early 1900's the Eastern Band planned to disband. The tribe decided to divide the 56,000 acre Qualla Boundary property among the individual tribal members. A final census was taken but Congress permanently postponed the land division because members of Eastern Band claimed that over 1000 of the 3000 (@) enumerated in the final census tribal were not Cherokee (five dollar Indians). Today, there are over 13,000 enrolled Eastern Band members. Many of these descended from the 1000+ who paid to get their names on the rolls. BTW the same facts apply to the Western Cherokee whose rolls number in excess of 250,000.(New Geography of North Carolina, Sharp Publishing, Swain County, 1930)

Arvis

• • • Saying something repeatedly does not make it true. Your claim that NC reclassified Indians as FPCs cannot be substantiated. It never happened to the Cherokees. You have no evidence of it happening to anyone else in NC. If it were true, then there would be evidence of those tribes living in NC prior to the 1830s. But there is none. Lumbee ancestors are repeatedly described as negroes, black, FPC, etc. in all records prior to 1830, not to mention 1885. Why do you object to any mention of this simple historical fact in this article?Verklempt 21:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

---

An Observer

It is something to see how Swanton's own notes, Heinegg's two decades of primary source research, DeMarce's historical and genealogical examinations, and critique of Campisi's obviously non-neutral work can so easily be shoved aside by people who just refuse to address the big issues of the disputed origins here. It is so much easier to simply say the award-winning research of Heinegg, DeMarce, et. al., is "shoddy" and "inadequate" while ignoring Swanton's own notes, and claiming Campisi is "objective," than it is to actually constructively engage the mounting evidence--like local and state court records dating from colonial times right through the 1870s--that the Lumbee are an artificial construct of fairly recent origin.

My own decade of research into the source base--ranging from 17th century wills, to 19th century court cases, to 1960s genetics--led me to believe, after many years of denial, that the Lumbee aren't American Indians. If it is this article that is "hogwash," then please cite specific sources that demonstrate this. Please put up some evidence so that all parties can evaluate. Support YOUR assertions re: the Lumbee are related to the Catawba Nation; that the Lumbee do not descend from African American/Euro-American unions (in other words, post a documented Cheraw Indian that is genealogically tied to the Lumbee ancestral base); that "Some" Lumbees "may have" migrated down the Virginia-Catawba Trading Road or any other trader's paths; your assesment that World Book's Lumbee entry is more factually accurate than this Wikipedia piece, even after all of its edits, corectives, and sourcing. My reading of the comments here has led me to conclude that if something written is supportive of Lumbee claims then it is unbiased, good, and honest, but if something written takes issue with or questions Lumbee assertions, then it is racist, inaccurate, or opinionted. I am going to check this World Book entry to see how it is sourced, and what research is cited.

What awards did Heinegg and Demarce win for their research? The silver sow award for that bunch of hogwash? The names they cite are frequently used names in eastern NC and Virginia. Mr./Ms. Observer, please do take a look at the World Book article. At least it documents Lumbee history without being derogatory or biased in either direction. Look at the 1930's "so called" genetics testing in connection with the Dawes Act. The BIA came AGAIN to Robeson County to "test" the quantum of Indian blood of our people. They thought they could determine who was 1/2 or more NA by measuring teeth, foreheads, etc. Full brothers and sisters were tested. One sibling would make it the other would not. Anyhow, somehow it was concluded that of the 200 tested, 22 were full bloods or at least 1/2 quantum (THE ORIGINAL 22). The BIA backed out of their promise to provide services to these 22. BTW, what genetic testing was available in the 1960's? Verklempt, is that you? If it's not you it must be or a brother in spirit with the claims of being a top Lumbee researcher and all of the unsubstantiated allegations again. My gracious!!!!! Arvis

Request for comment

Lumbee origins

This dispute is ongoing, I think it's high time for an RfC. It seems the origins of the tribe are disputed, with some accepting that they are an authentic Indian tribe, and others believing they are a more recently developed multiracial community with no real tribal history.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

We know who we are and really don't need "so called" experts to tell us. BTW the tribe has been state recognized since 1888. In 1956, we also received partial federal recognition which allows us to pursue funding for INDIAN education and INDIAN housing. We are members and have leadership positions in national organizations such as NCAI (National Congress of the American Indian) and NIEA (National Indian Education Association). Again, we don't need "SO CALLED EXPERTS" to classify us. WE KNOW WHO WE ARE. Thanks, Arvis

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

Comments

Hi, I studied the Lumbee once in my pre-wikipedia days... Here is a vital website with concrete evidence linking the Lumbee with the Lost Colonists... The Virginia Dare Stones are also inscribed in ELizabethan English, and the Lumbee were discovered by later colonists in the 16th and 17th centuries already speaking broken English, practising Christianity, and going by the surnames of the supposedly "lost" Roanoake colonists! [2] However, I appreciate that there has been a substantial coverup of these facts by those who don't like to admit to such things... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 21:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Those who do not think we have a tribal history, do not really know us!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.149.228.13 (talk • contribs)

There is no way that Wikipedia can resolve this issue. Our role is only to document (with proper sources) the disagreement. Rmhermen 15:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice to see some of the Lumbee sources. What tribes are they related to? What language are they supposed to have spoken, and what is the evidence for it? What groups or entities recognize them as Indians? Obviously having white or black ancestry, to even a large extent, does not disqualify someone from being an Indian, but what is the evidence for the pre-Columbian ancestors of the Lumbee?--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

An outsider's view

I am not a Lumbee. I never heard of the Lumbee people prior to noticing the conflict pertaining to this article. I'm the one who locked the article in its semi-protected state, in hopes of calming things down somewhat.

I really don't know enough to judge the validity of the statements regarding the origins of the Lumbee; however, what is clear is that there is a controversy.

Therefore, we should present both sides of the controversy: the facts that both sides can agree on.

Try to write so as to provide a minimum of statements that someone on the other side of the debate could consider a flaw. DS 21:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

• • The main controversy here seems to be that Arvis has objections to the inclusion of several of the cited sources and their findings. Apparently he wants them taken out. I don't see a reasonable resolution to that request. Gallay liked the older version from earlier this year better than the current version. Then he disappeared, and cannot be troubled to tell us specifically what his beef is. An anonymous editor keeps removing a sentence that mentions the existence of African and European ancestry among Lumbees, even though this is well documented, and acknowledged by all published sources. These are not complaints that can easily be addressed.Verklempt 04:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

• • What you fail to mention is that there are sources which state the contrary to your assertions in this article. For example, the documentation of the eight times the Bureau has visited the Lumbee and confirmed they are a tribe. What about the Pierce findings that the majority of Lumbee were 3/4 Native blood quantum. Most sources cited in this article are biased against the Lumbee. I have yet to see the documentation,other than the shoddy Heinegg research that proves the existence of African American and European heritage among the Lumbee. I am not denying there could be some, but why does that fact need to be emphasized. Why? That fact applies to all eastern Native peoples. As a previous editor stated, some African American/European American ancestory should not preclude or diminish a people's status as a Native American tribe. I agree with what Dragonfly stated, perhaps it be fair to present both sides of the arguement, pro and con. I agree with Gallay, it sounds like the earlier version was less biased. By the way, if I besmirched (sp.) your family background, you would want

to delete the false information too. Think about it. The Vandals (French) help bring down a corrupt Roman empire. On certain occasions a little vandalism is needed.  :>) Arvis

• • • I don't think there is any dispute that the Lumbees are a recognized tribe today. The controversy is over how the Lumbee ancestors were identified before 1885. I don't understand how acknowledging African and European ancestry is "besmirching" anyone. It is a simple statement of historical fact that Lumbee ancestors were so identified, and were not identified as Indians, prior to 1885. To remove that truth from the article is to distort the historical record in order to coddle the preferred origins myth of contemporary people. Is this to be an encyclopedia, or a reiteration of myths so that we can make some people feel better about their ancestry?Verklempt 16:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

• • It is a besmirch if the only documentation you offer is one piece of research and other

unsubstantiated allegations. Wikipedia is not a place for individuals to criticize a group, tribe, religious group, or other entity because they FEEL they are the beginnning to end expert. You say Tomayto, I say Tumahato. I don't need you to make me feel better about my ancestry. I know who I am. Do you? We Lumbee have a saying, "Truth (true words) will stand the test of time." Over 121 years is a long time to "reiterate" some myths isn't it?

Arvis 31 August 2006.

• • • There is no criticism in this article, unless one is so racist that he can't deal with having African ancestors. There are hundreds of historical documents supporting the simple fact of African and European ancestry. Even if you disagree with the conclusions, the article still needs to air this aspect of historical knowledge about this group.Verklempt 21:27, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• • You're the racist Verklempt. You have some unknown grudge against

Lumbees. I admitted there may be some African American heritage among my people. The same holds true among ALL eastern tribes. I don't see why we have to suffer your brand of the truth when there is proof to the contrary. 31 August 2006 Arvis

• • • I don't understand the nature of your complaint. You don't want some of the most prominent researchers included in this article, apparently because they are the ones who document the African ancestry. If you're acknowledging the truth of African ancestry, then what's your problem with including mention of it in the article?Verklempt 21:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The True Origins of the Lumbee-- Tuscarora

The Lumbee article is largely biased and misleading. There is no mention in the Lumbee article of the fact that the majority (95%) of the surnames/ families comprising the "Lumbee" tribe can be traced to the Tuscarora Reservation of the 1700's in Bertie Co. NC. There is a multitude of documentation avaialable indicating that these people are in fact Tuscarora. A number of experts, including acclaimed author Dr. Peter Wood, among others agree that the so-called "Lumbee" are actually Tuscarora Descendants. The "Lumbee" name was recently created and has no historic basis. There is rarely mention or discussion of the "Lumbee" tribe's Tuscarora roots.

The familiar story is that after the war most Tuscarora fled to New York to join the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois Confederacy/ 5 Nations: the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca) but this was not the case. In fact about half of the Tuscarora (1,500) moved to New York. The other half (1,000- 1,500) fled to Virginia, some assuming tributary status under the Colony, but most returned to North Carolina. A small remnant of Tuscarora and other tribes, including the Chowanoc and Nansemond remained in Eastern Virginia/ North Carolina under the leadership of King Tom Blount. While others scattered into the countryside, in small communities, or joined with ally tribes such as the Chowanoc.

On June 5, 1717 these Tuscarora were “given” (from land that was once theirs) 41,000 acres as a reservation. Due to the numerous hardships they faced, these families began to scatter from the reservation into the North Carolina Countryside, which at that time was frontier, with very few Whites residing there. In 1730 only 300 individuals remained on the Reservation. Many ended up to the West in Edgecombe County. Their Tuscarora surnames include Lowry, Locklear, Kearsey, Chavis, Cumbo, and Brayboy among numerous others. These families resided in Bertie in the Early 1700’s, Northampton in 1728, and Edgecombe in 1736. This, along with other common surnames proves that these Tuscarora families lived near or among the Webbs before departing and shared the same migration to Edgecombe County in the 1760’s and later.

Among the Tuscarora who first appear in the area of what is now Robeson County was Chief Billy Mitchell, and James Lowry. Before moving south, these families were on the Tuscarora Indian Woods Reservation in 1713. Chief Mitchell (William Mitchell) signed a legal document there along with Chief James Lowry before their move south to Cape Fear/ Bladen County in 1757.

After leaving Indian Woods, in the 1720’s these Tuscarora were deeding land along the Roanoke. In the same location were the Indian families: Cumbo, Freeman, Day, Demeory, and Weeks. They are listed as witnesses on many of one-another’s deeds. In the 1720’s the Chavis, Locklear, Bass, Gibson, and Sweat Families also lived on the Roanoke in the area of Edgecombe and Bertie.

This is just the "tip of the Ice-berg." -- David Webb

• Why did these folks claim to be Cherokees in the early 20th century? Why did they start claiming to be Cheraws later on? Why did the NY Tuscaroras say in the early 19th century that all their people had migrated, except for a handful who had intermarried with free blacks? It is plausible and likley that some mid-Atlantic FPC families have a modicum of Tuscarora ancestry, but the proof is entirely speculative.Verklempt 16:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

==

Bold text == The Cherokee name was basically forced upon the people, with A.W. Mclean (future governor and assistant secretary of the U.S.treasury) as the sponsor of the legislation. His "inside man" so to speak, was D.F. Lowry, a nephew of H.B. Lowry (tuscarora). Mr. Mclean, when rationalizing the renaming to Cherokee, he twisted people's oral traditions, attempting to make a connection to the Cherokee in the mountains. Mr. Mclean came up with the so-called connection to the John Lowry who signed a Cherokee treaty circa 1800, but that was never substantiated.

The Cherokee fought the designation of the people from Robeson County, as Cherokee from the beginning, but the State ignored their protests, designating our people cherokee in 1913. The State appeased the Cherokee in the mountains somewhat by giving our people the name, and nothing more.

My own feelings as to why Cherokee was given, was due to the fact that in 1916, the Bertie County Reservation Land leases were to expire, and if there were no recognized Tuscarora in the state, the land would revert to N.C. The original name given in 1885 was Croatan, but McMillan admited that they were actually Tuscarora, which is why the names began to change just before the 1916 date. In 1911, the name was changed from Croatan, to "Indians of Robeson County", which must have been too vague for the state of N.C.'s concern, which why the name was changed again in 1913.

As far as the Cheraw, that name was just another part of the State's attempt of keeping our ancestor's identity confusing. There may be a minute infusion of Souian, but again, the major portion of Indian blood is Tuscarora. In 1933, Swanton gave "his version", which is why the many of the people began to identify as Souian when the IRA testing occured a few years later. Never the less, the governnment has acknowledged the fact that there were 22 half or more full blood Tuscarora recognized here in the 1930's, which was only a fraction of the actual number that "should" have been recognized. http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/ottletter.html

The Lumbee themselves can't prove but one surname that "possibly" comes from Cheraw, and Michelle Lawing stated that the Cheraw didnt come into Robeson County until the early 1800's. Our people's "core group" was already in this area well before 1800.

This is why the northern Tuscarora said that in 1802. They were seeing only the Bertie County area, and did not come to the Robeson area looking for their Kin. By 1802, most of the people had already left the reservation, going in all directions. The Chiefs never knew about the numerous other Tuscarora communities that had popped up in other parts of the state. --Roskerah 05:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• • The proof is not even remotely "speculative" LOL. Basically every major Lumbee surname originated among the Tuscarora: Lowry, Locklear, Kearsey, Chavis, Cumbo, Goins, Gibson, etc, etc. Their migration pattern from residing on the Bertie reservation, to Edgecombe County, to Bladen, in what is now Robeson is well document through land deeds and other legal documents.

What about this is speculative? Its the only SOLID evidence on their/our origins!

It's all speculative, in that none of these people have been linked to the Tuscarora tribe in historical documents. Just because they lived in the same county the Tuscaroras had vacated doesn't mean they were Tuscaroras. The Tuscaroras themselves said in the early 1800s that they had already collected all of their people and moved north, save for a few that had intermarried with negroes. The other issue is that none of the robeson people ever claimed to be Tuscaroras until the mid-20th century, after they had already cycled through a bunch of other identities.Verklempt 18:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

You are wrong,-- I can think of several documented examples off the top of my head, including individuals who migrated to Robeson from the Bertie Reservation such as "Chief Billy Mitchell" and "Chief James Lowry" signing agreements as Tuscarora representatives. Also a Kearsey is noted as being "Tuscarora." There are many more examples including lists similar to a roll or census which lists Lowries (Lowry), Locklear, Chavis, Cumbo, etc as Tuscarora. All of these individuals made the migration. Also, there is no doubt among Tuscarora in New York and academics/experts as to Robeson Indians being Tuscarora descendants. The Tuscarora in NY have acknowledged that there are Tuscarora remaining in NC, they don't accept NC Tuscarora because they track their lines through the mother's side. There are however, many NC Tuscarora with unbroken matrilineal lines. It is well known that the Tuscarora moved to NY in waves, even into the 1800's. There were some that remained, in fact there are Tuscarora descendets living in Bertie and Edgecombe as well as Robeson. Dr. Peter Wood from Duke outlines all of this in his report: "An Historical Report Regarding the Relation of the Hatteras Tuscarora Tribe of Robeson County, North Carolina, to the Original Tuscarora Indian Tribe."

• • • I can't find this report by Wood in any catalog. Can you please give us a more detailed citation, so that your assertions can be verified?Verklempt 21:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

---

I've met Peter Wood and have spoken with him about the Lumbee before. Strange he never mentioned this article or report. Yes, please provide a citation and/or location so that interested researchers may take a look. Thanks Factiness 22:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

---

I too have this report. He did it for the Hatteras Tuscarora Tribe's petition, that has been filed at the BIA for almost 27 years, but the government refuses to look at it, using the Lumbee Act as their only excuse. You may want to contact him again. Maybe he will send you a copy. Email me, and I might be able to send you part of it. --Roskerah 04:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

---

OK, I've now got wind of this report; the full title is "Tuscarora Roots: An Historical Report Regarding the Relation of the Hatteras Tuscarora Tribe of Robeson County, North Carolina, to the Original Tuscarora Indian Tribe." It is 160 pages in length, including references and bibliography. However, it was written only in 1992, though, and so has not been on file at the BIA for 27 years--something less than 14 actually. The information submitted for the Hatteras Tuscarora petition was merged with that submitted in 1999 by the Tuscarora Nation East of the Mountains, who the BIA determined required legislative action for eligibility to petition. This decison was based--in part, at least--on genealogical associations with the Lumbee, also determined ineligible to apply. So, to say the government refuses to even look at it, I don't know how accurate that assessment is.

Anyway, it seems the East of the Mountains group submitted a letter of intent to apply only in September of 1999, about a decade after the Hatteras Tuscarora (under Vermon Locklear) were determined ineligible. However, the Hattadare Nation, under leadrship of Mr. James Lowery, submitted a letter of intention to the BIA in 1979, about two years prior to submission of the same by the Drowning Creek Tuscarora Indian Tribe. This group, too, like the Lumbee, were determined to be ineligible in 1989. In 1997, the Drowning Creek Tuscarora were formally disolved as a group or entity. The same thing happened to Leon Locklear's Tuscarora Nation of North Carolina, who submitted a letter of intention to petition at the end of 1985. Meanwhile, the "Lumbee Regional Development Association, Incorporated," submitted a letter, and later morphed into the Lumbee Tribe of Cheraw Indians. I do not know how the Cherokee-Tuscarora of Hoke County, Inc. (at Lumber Bridge, North Carolina), are connected, but like the others, they were determined ineligible due to being the same people, in essence, as the Lumbee.

I shall refrain from getting into an analysis of the "Hatteras Tuscarora Tribe of Robeson County" report here. It was a little tentative, I think, and somewhat inconclusive. The depth and breadth of genealogical explication does not begin to approach what I have seen elsewhere. But, like a lot of the material at the BIA--boxes and boxes and files and files of reports, copies of records and so forth--it makes for interesting reading. What I find more intriguing, by far, are the competing claims to various tribal origins and identities. I wouild like to see an in-depth examination of that phenomenon.Factiness 02:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• • • Uh, try at least two surnames connected with the Cheraw and they

are biggies (Chavis and Locklear) Arvis

°°°° Arvis, how did you come to this conclusion? Chavis and Locklear originate from Edgecombe County in the early 1700's, though some with these names did move into South Carolina "after" moving into the Robeson Area. The Lumbee themselves can't prove a Cheraw connection with these two names, so how can you? The only name that they "think" comes from Cheraw is Grooms. (Source: "Settlement pattern study" LRDA, 1983, written by Rebecca Seib, with Wes White and Carol Oxendine. There is also a "restricted report done by Wes White and David Wilknis, which can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NCTuscarora/)

• • • • • Reverend Zimmie Chavis traces his lineage to Chief Ismael

Chavis of the Cheraw (Marlboro, SC). Adolph Dial and I trace our lineage to Robert Locklear (Marlboro, SC). Robert L. also married an Evan's girl as did Tom (big Tom). When I have a chance there is more evidence on my tree to support this. BTW, Vernon Cooper also traces his lineage back to SC. Remember the trading path. Its possible the Locklear's, Chavis', etc. did travel from SC up the trading path from Va., down through Edgecombe, etc. I am not disputing that some of our folks were Tuscarora (Roanoke River etc.). However, most of our people are of Siouan descent.

P.S. I've also heard that Locklear has connection w/ the Lossiah, a Cherokee surname, but I haven't seen alot of creditable evidence to support that. Arvis

These people had moved to S.C. after living in the Robeson area. Robert and "Big Tom" were sons of Major Locklear, who was a son of the 1st Robert Locklear(died in Edgecombe), who was mentioned in the will of Ben Rawlins on Dec 10th, 1738, and his own will was made May 24th 1749, with Nat and William Cooper as witnesses. (Halifax deeds Book 3, page 347, N.C. State archives) I descend from another son of Major called "Lazy Will".

During this timeframe, the remaining Cheraw had already moved to Catawba, and was living among them. You are wrong in saying that the migration went from south to north, it was in the reverse order. The earliest known date of Major Locklear being in this area was Jan 21, 1754, acting as a chain bearer for the Survey of Thomas Robeson's 100 acre tract of land. Major and his brother John were chain bearers for many surveys around the same time.(Survey book 1753, pages 31-32, N.C. State Archives)

As far as who Robert and Tom married, I have that they married daughters of Aquilla Quick. --Roskerah 15:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

What is the evidence that Ismael Chavis and Robert Locklear were Cheraws?Verklempt 16:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• • • Two websites which cite as reference a Wall Street Journal article: http://www.decades.com and timelines in history. The websites and the news article state that Robert Locklear was King of the Cheraws in 1738. My information for Ishmael Chavis came from the Indian Education Resource Center in Pembroke, NC. In a short biographical sketch, Rev. Chavis is quoted as tracing his family history to Ismael Chavis, Chief of the Cheraw before they moved into the Lumbee River basin. Also, as a little side note, Reverend Dawley Maynor was taught the words EPTA TEWA NEWASIN by his great grandmother in the early 1900's. This phrase was studied by a noted linguist. It was concluded, by this researcher, that these words were Siouan in origin. They mean, "Creator, We Love You." Arvis

As stated above, by 1738, the Cheraw were already living in Catawba country. Arvis, I would love to see documents and or sources that predate the information that I have posted showing North eastern N.C. as the originating area. All of the Lumbee historians and researchers in the past have not been able to show anything like this, and I have atleast ten separate pieces of their work, beginning in the 1970's. The Lumbee leadership intentionally misleads their own people, and they never complete genealogy charts to their fullest potential. They always stop at the 1800 mark, and never take the people back further, because it would begin to show the surnames "actual" origins. Again, there is a report done years ago on this subject that is located here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NCTuscarora/

--Roskerah 15:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

My brother or sister. Part of the Cheraw may have been living with the Catawba at that time. But, remember the quote by Margaret Brown. The Croatan were once part of our people but left to escape the plague? Catawba history tells us that a part of the Cheraw merged with the Catawba for about 12 years, but left to reestablish their own identity. It is a documented fact that the Cheraw sold their lands in South Carolina and part of that group merged again

with the Catawba (the Browns, Harris, but a greater part of that group along with the Keyauwee etc. came into Robeson County. In fact, the Catawba language now being researched/reborn today is actually the Cheraw dialect of the Catawba language. With reports from the SC Gazette, maps from explorers such as John Herbert, etc., it is evident that a great number Siouan related tribes migrated a few dozen miles up the PeeDee and settled in the Lumbee River basin. BTW, the Quicks were also Marlboro, SC natives. I won't debate this any further for you in this forum. We people of the Lumbee basin need to discuss our disagreements in private because when we air them in public it castes our people in a bad light. Even the bible said, "Don't cast your pearls before Swine (this article is hogwash)"  :>) Arvis

Next, the Chavis name has been connected to the Saponi, though remnants of the Saponi ended up moving onto the Tuscarora rez, which is how the two are connected today. There are Chavis graves located on the Indian Woods(Tuscarora Rez) today. Locklear has always been known as Tuscarora. http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/lowriehistory.html --Roskerah 16:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

What is the evidence of a Locklear connection to Tuscaroras? I have heard that Locklear is supposedly a Tuscarora word, but this seems unsupportable. It's a French surname that shows up in early VA colonial records.Verklempt

I can't answer the "ultimate" origin of Locklear, but from the 1740's onward pertaining to our people in Robeson, the name is associated with Tuscarora primarily. Atleast pertaining to the Robert Locklear who wrote his will in 1749 from Edgecombe County, and his children. His descendants all moved to the Robeson area, and eventually began marrying into the Lowries , and other surnames from the same areas in northeastern N.C. All of the Locklears from here today, descend from Robert's descendants. Take alook at the Lowrie history pages, and it will explain how the people marryed and remarryed continuously. This link will also let you see the "Locklayer" meaning "holdfast" in the Tuscarora language, that you referred to previously.--Roskerah 04:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

If the Lumbee are not Native Indians...

Then what kind of language is this?

http://www.native-languages.org/lumbee.htm

I have already mentioned this source, but no one responded.

Here it calls the language Algonquian; excerpt:

English (Français) Lumbee

One (Un) Weembot

Two (Deux) Neshinnauh

Three (Trois) Nishwonner

Four (Quatre) Yauonner

Five (Cinq) Umperren

Woman (Femme) Crenepo

Water (Eau) Umpe

White (Blanc) Wopposhaumosh

Red (Rouge) Mishcosk

Black (Noir) Mowcottowosh

And would anyone please comment on this:

Lumbee historian Adolph Dial made the case that the Croatans and their English guests were among the ancestors of today's Lumbee Indians, who resurfaced some 50 years later speaking English, practicing Christianity, and sporting the same last names many of the colonists had brought with them.

This source doesn't look like a fly-by-night website, but seriously scholarly stuff, and it has plenty of references and links to more material.

By the way, I do happen to know that the Powhatan word for woman is the same (crenepo)... The other words are not identical, though... Regards, ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

• • The word list is entirely speculative. The author has taken some Indian words and called it part of the "Lumbee language", without offering any historical evidence that any Lumbee ancestors ever spoke those words.

Adolph Dial was reiterating the story told by Hamilton McMillan back in 1885. It doesn't get any more plausible through retelling. Suffice to say that McMillans claims about name similarity are very weak at best.Verklempt 18:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, for a "speculative" list, someone sure did their homework. As I said, the word given for "woman", crenepo, is identical with the Powhatan word, but is not shared by any other Algonquian language (many of which have instead words that are actually cognate with English "squaw")... However, the word given for "water", umpe, is recognisably Algonquian, and is cognate with the words for water used by tribes north of the Powhatan, from Maryland to Maine, but not the Powhatan themselves, who used the word "Sekwahanna" instead. That is just what you would expect for an independent language - some words agree with Powhatan, others agree with other relatives in the family. So do you say this entire website about the "Lumbee language", with lots of scholarly links, is a fraud then? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not difficult to find a book with words in it. But nobody has shown that Lumbee ancestors actually used these words. All the surviving evidence indicates that they were English speakers.Verklempt 18:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this is totally speculative. The Lumbee "leaders" and "scholars" have gone to great lengths, attempting to validate their Siouan claims. In the 1930's, the U.S. government sent a man named Pearmain to Robeson, for the purpose of studing our people. In his report, he mentions being told of my great grandmother Lottie Lowry, who evidently spoke some form of Indian language. Which one, nobody in the family remembers due to the fact that she died in 1934. But, given her genealogy, ( http://tribalpages.com/tribes/roskerah ) it is easiest to assume that it was Tuscarora that she was speaking.

Ella Deloria supposedly accrued a list of words still spoken in the 1940's when she was here, but that list has never been produced. And then there are other oral traditions of different people speaking a language over the years, but again no proof.--Roskerah 17:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Lumbee language????

I understand the Lumbee name being used a label for a group of people who have lost much of their oral history, language, and culture-- but come on! There is no such thing as "the Lumbee language." There is a local dialect, and a few words (mostly expressions) that are unique to the people (Tuscarora), but don't rip others off! The so-called Lumbee love to "borrow" their new culture from others, mostly the Lakota (I guess because they have been told they are Cheraw, or Eastern Siouan, they think it is the same as Lakota/ Sioux out west). In addition to numerous other forms of "borrowing," the Lumbee even use the Lakota medicine wheel for their logo. Maybe they should learn about their true culture-- Tuscarora. Then there might be more validity....

More on the Tuscarora connection

Chwe'n/hello, I would like to follow up on what David Webb added, in that the predominent blood of the Lumbee being Tuscarora. The story of the Lumbee, and the mystery surrounding that name is one of the most confusing stories of U.S. history, but all of these different opinions comes by no accident.

Our history has been changed so many times since 1885 by so called government sponsored "historians", it is no wonder why it is hard for peole to believe anything. There has been a concerted effort by the State of North Carolina, and subsequently the Federal Government, to keep the Tuscarora lineage hidden, only to keep land claims from popping up, when, and if, Tuscarora were recognized again in the State.

On Feb. 10, 1885, Hamilton McMillan had passed the Croatan Act, which designated our people Croatan, a previously unknown tribe of "friendly Indians" that once lived on the Roanoke River. ( The "friendly" Tuscarora were given a reservation in 1717 of the Roanoke River) Two days later, on the 12th of Feb, 1885, Mr. McMillan was quoted in the Fayetteville Observer, saying that our people thought of Croatan as a village, and that they were actually Tuscarora. http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/1885observer.html

Another point of confusion has been the connection between our people and the "Lost Colony", which the first name Croatan was based in part upon. The government has always known what happened to atleast some of the colonists, but they have chose to keep the Colonists "lost" because of the fact that is was the Tuscarora who took in atleast some of them, and this, along with the fact that our people descend from both Tuscarora and the Colonists, is a big motive behind the cover-up. ("Lost Colony in Fact and Legend", By F. Roy Johnson w/ Thomas Parramore as guest author of the "Tuscarora Story" Part 2, pages 48-59" published 1983, ISBN 0-930230-46-9)

Take a look at this chronology, which will answer even more questions that have always been thrown our way. http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/TuscaroraChronology.html --Roskerah 04:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)