Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)/Archive 1

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old NPOV issues

I would like to know if Macedonians agree with this analysis... Secretlondon 14:13, Jan 16, 2004 (UTC)

Macedonians today certainly would dispute this (as Bulgarian imperialism, or some such), irrespective of the truth. Morwen 14:34, Jan 16, 2004 (UTC)

Their relation to the Bulgarians can definitely be explained in a less partisan manner, though. --Shallot

I've removed that and added some proper content. It's still probably going to be taken as pro-Macedonian-Slav POV by nationalists from those other countries, but that's pretty hard to avoid when the core of the matter is identity... --Shallot 03:29, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

User:Vergina, kindly stop slapping the msg:NPOV on everything without any explanation. At least put a pointer somewhere to an earlier discussion. --Shallot 13:55, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Vergina wrote: The Name republc of Macedonia is disputed!!

Yeah, and? How is that pertinent to this page? What other name is there for this separate Slavic ethnic group that clearly lives in the Macedonian region? --Shallot 18:46, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Note also that the last sentence that mentions R. of M. is perfectly sanely phrased, it clearly states whose republic it was (of Yugoslavia), so I don't see how you could object to that. --Shallot 18:46, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm assuming Vergina's referring to the argument that calling this group of Slavs Macedonian Slavs is POV, because it is claimed by some, mainly Greeks, that the adjective Macedonian should refer to Greek-speaking people, as Alexander the Great was Greek-speaking, and thus it is anachronistic to call a Slavic people by that name, since the Slavic immigration to Europe happened centuries after the fall of the Macedonian Empire. --Delirium 22:39, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, sure, but if it has the _Slavs_ added, then it shouldn't be so unbearable. We can't call them Rumelian or something like that because that would also be anachronistic and considered by them as a hostile POV. I think this is about it as far as NPOV goes on this issue... --Shallot 22:56, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. One side thinks they should not be called "Macedonians" in any shape, form, or variant, while they think they should be called "Macedonians" without any qualifiers at all, and so "Macedonian Slavs" seems like a reasonable middle ground. Probably the nationalists on both sides won't like it, but that's how it goes I suppose. --Delirium 21:32, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

*nods*. In the meantime there's also been some other anonymous person who changed all instances of the name to remove "Slavs", so I guess that people coming from both positions have made their point in the edit history ;) ChrisO cleaned it up now, and I guess we can now begin the "standard" period of us "normal" editors watching over the article and making sure it doesn't get abused. :| I'll also go make sure it's listed on the list of controversial issues. --Shallot 09:59, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

But do "Macedonian Slavs" exist at all?

This is very interesting issue - there is no single self-declared "Macedonian Slav" anywhere in the world, but Wikipedia decided to include such an article here...

First of all - in Republic of Macedonia there are about 2 million inhabitans. According to the latest census (and in all the others starting from 1951 there were even more), there are 64,2% self-declared Macedonians (not Macedonian Slavs) living in it. Check CIA World Factbook at https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html .

In the neighbouring countries, there are people that would self declare themselves as Macedonians, but due to the governmental policies they are not allowed to officially self declare themselves. Nevertheless, take a look at the official web site of the Greek Rainbow Party http://www.florina.org which clearly states that it is the "Political Party of the Macedonian Minority in Greece". Even in Greece, they do not refer to themselves as "Macedonian Slavs".

The impossibility to selfdeclare themselves leads to another conclusion - the members of the Macedonian minorities in neighbouring countries are declaring themselves as Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians but not a single one as a Macedonian or a Macedonian Slav.

In Canada, Australia, USA there ara big Macedonian communities, and needless to mention, they are clearly self declaring themselves as Macedonians.

Therefore, there are no Macedonian Slavs out of Republic of Macedonia, too.

And finally, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (to be found at http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html ) in Article 15 clearly states:

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

By using "Macedonian Slavs" denominator, Wikipedia authors are not doing any justice to the truth: there are no Macedonian Slavs in existence, nor they ever existed. There are only Macedonians and that it is the only name for this ethnic group.

Therefore, disregard the usage of the derogatory term "Macedonian Slavs" and just the real name - "Macedonians".

And last but not least - are ther any British Celts around? Or Bulgarian Slavs? Or French Gauls?

Propaganda vs Historical Truths

I am astonished at the size of propaganda and lies contained in this page and the fact that my contribution is considered vandalism.

The Macedonian Slavs are a fabricated ethnic group of people that before World War II refered to themselves as Serbs or Bulgarian.

During the time of Yugoslav ruler Tito a systematic effort was made to fabricate a nation by appropriating symbols of the Greek civilisation and forging history and thus claiming that those Slavs were Macedonians a different ethnic group that speaks the Slavic Macedonian language, that is in fact a dialect of Bulgarian. The reasons behind this was politics. Tito and his regime wanted to expand their territory so that they can have access to the Aegean Sea, in doing so they created this "Macedonia" ethnic identity in order to change the borders of the Balcans.

It is historically documented that the Macedonians under Alexander the Great and well before him, were in fact Greek, as they were speaking the Greek language and they worshipped the Greek gods. In fact they referred to themselves as Greeks. The Slavic tribes that settled in the Balcans did so at a much later time, towards the end of the Roman Empire during 5th to 6th century A.D. It is therefore historically inaccurate to connect the descendants of the Slavs with the Macedonians of antiquity as there is absolutely no relation between them.

There is a lot of serious historical bibliography on this subject by accredited institutions of third countries not Greek or Slavo Macedonic, just take a look at Brittanica Encyclopaedia. It is very frightening at this time and age that propaganda takes over historical truth. Wikipedia.com should not allow articles full of historical inaccuracies being made into a cannon.

Macedonian Slavs are not nationality!

Uskub; Nov.1915:Prisoners Serbs:Prisoners Bulgars!Not Macedonian Slavs

Prisonniers Serbes;Prisonniers Bulgars Not Fyromians !Macedonian Slavs are Serbs & Bulgars !

Click presbes1.jpg http://images.google.de/images?q=USKUB&hl=de&btnG=Google-Suche

26dec.1944:Stettinius speaks about Yugoslav Propaganda for Macedonia

U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations Vol. VII, Circular Airgram (868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944) by then Secretary of State E. Stettinius: “The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia emanating from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. “This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland” or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece”.

Vergina 14:52, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The name "Macedonians" as "Macedonians" people to state FYROM is disputed by Greece

Establishment:The Macedonians are Greek people! Not Slavs!

United Nations Resolution 817 (1993)

Noting however that a difference has arisen over the name of the State, which needs to be resolved in the interest of the maintenance of peaceful and good-neighbourly relations in the region,

See:-- http://faq.macedonia.org/politics/un.resolutions.html

The Macedonian language to state FYROM is disputed by Bulgaria

Establishment:The Macedonian language is identically with the Bulgarian language!

The name "Macedonians" of the people to state FYROM is disputed by Bulgaria

Establishment: 50% of the Slavs people to state FYROM are Bulgarians

The people of the state FYROM is disputed by Serbia

Establishment: 50% of the Slavs people to state FYROM are Serbs

Vergina 17:52, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Protected

Right, what's going on here? I came across this due to user:Fvw having an argument with someone over whether something is 3RR or removal of vandalism. Can we all follow the correct procedures please? Dunc|☺ 15:13, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

VMORO's comment

I am not astonished to see yet another act of vandalism by a Greek nationalist. And, please, do not call a contribution the erasing of three-quarters of the article and the use of a language which is not permitted in scientific literature. VMORO

The fact has already been mentioned in the article: "Though the majority of the Macedonian Slavs regarded themselves as Bulgarians before the Balkan Wars, there was a substantial pro-Greek faction in southern Macedonia and a smaller pro-Serbian one in northern Macedonia"

And calling a nation "fabricated" is not allowed in anything other than a tabloid. VMORO

This has been explained in a much better way in the article Macedonia. And whether you like it or not, such a nation and ethnic group does exist and should be described in this encyclopedia with all due respect. VMORO

The article talks about the Macedonian Slavs in the 20th century, when - beyond any doubt - they existed. There is not a single word about the ancient Macedonians. Find another way to substantiate the deletions. VMORO

Trying to turn this article into a mockery of the NPOV policy of the encyclopaedia deserves condemn. Neither the language, nor the way you present the facts is suitable for a neutral source of information such as Wikipedia. On top of it, you have erased the bulk of the original article. VMORO

Historical Truths vs Propaganda Lies Part II

First of all VMORO have the courtesy of replying at a different post not on top of mine. As you can see I moved your remarks at a new post and removed them from mine.

Second a nation and an ethnic identity take well more than the span of the 20th century to be formed. This usually takes millenia.

To claim that this article discusses Macedonians in the 20th Century is completely wrong since you make references to the Illyrians and the Thraces ancient tribes of classical antiquity that along with the Macedonians (that you are so fond of claiming that they are your ancestors by appropriating their name) have nothing to do with the Slavic people that moved into the Balcans during the 5th & 6th century A.D.

Also I am tired of seeing another Skopje nationalist propagating lies. Also it is very unfortunate that you are so quick at making characterizations and calling names. I suggest you to have a good long read on the history of the Balkan peninsula.

It is very unfortunate that three entire generations have been brought up believing the lies of Tito's regime.

Finally free speech is a basic human right and you by writing on top of my post are infringing it.

I hope that the people who are responsible for this site stop allowing people writing on top of the posts of others.

Happy 2005

Happy 2005 everyone, I wish you all the best for the forthcoming year. It's the New Year's Eve, not a good time for an edit war! Get out, meet some friends, enjoy yourselves as much as you can, and we'll be there to discuss when it's time. Etz Haim 16:39, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Unprotecting

Right, I'll unprotect this but noting the following.

1. This is a controversial subject, but a NPOV version can be made. I have no specialist knowledge in this area.
2. Anon IPs should log in, but User:212.251.109.95's version appears to me to be bad faith and vandalism. He/she may dispute the neutrality of this article, and even try to add different POVs, but replacement with an unwikified POV mess is trouble. This anon should cite his sources and try to promote the inclusion of his POV in a friendly way, backed by those sources. If he doesn't, I'll treat him as a vandal, which may mean 24 hour bans, but none of us wants to go there.
3. User:VMORO shouldn't break the 3RR. Someone else will detect the vandalism and revert it, and he shoudl familiarise himself with WP:VIP and WP:RFC. This avoids edit wars and exasperation. If he breaks the 3RR, then a 24 hour ban also will be appropriate.

Please try to be friendly with each other. Dunc|☺ 14:39, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Just a note: 3RR doesn't apply to reverting vandalism, if its really obvious vandalism. Edits with which you don't agree don't necessarily fall under "vandalism", especially not if made by other established editors. Zocky 14:04, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

macedonian-slavs in Greece

Dear ChrisO,

First of all the link you provided and wrongly (I hope not with bad intention) named as official EU is not.The site you are reffering to is not official,it's an organization.As a citizen of EU, I know that it is does not recognise any state by the name Macedonia(sic), or the inhabitants of this state as Macedonians(sic).It does recognize a state by the name FYROM.

Second, the number of macedonian-slavs in Greece is less that 10000.This is prooved not only by me saying that,since I live in Macedonia(Greece), but also by the votes the macedonian-slav party gained in last elections(6000).Where exactly are the other 94000?Hiding?Where?

Third, stop aggravating Greek wikipedians with your links.The link you provided names macedonian-slav minority in Greece as Macedonians(sic)(this is not official EU policy as, if you are also EU citizen,you know),names the capital of our region-Thessaloniki with a slavic name (Solun),shows a flag with the an ancient macedonian symbol and present it as flag of macedonians(sic),which by the way is not only arbitrary,high-handed and false,but also it's not the flag of FYROM.

He's not aggravating me... Project2501a 15:38, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Consequently,the claim that macedonian-slavs in Greece according to EU are 100000 is false.Either we'll write that this is macedonian-slav opinion,or we will change it to 10000 which is more accurate.Kapnisma 09:26, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The site isn't an official EU one, but the estimate appears to be - it's from the EU's INTERREG II programme. I've seen other estimates (giving figures as high as 200,000) but without being able to source these I wouldn't want to include them in the article. I agree, it does sound too high, but we're not in the business of declaring which estimate is correct. It would be so much easier if Greece did a proper census...

I'm not responsible for the content of third-party websites so your comments about "aggravating Greek wikipedians with your links" are just silly. As a matter of policy, Wikipedia has to take a neutral point of view so you will inevitably find that articles link to websites of which you don't approve. If you want to tell eurominority.org that they've got their information wrong, that's up to you. -- ChrisO 11:16, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Look at the Rainbow Party election results for an indirect measure of the Macedonian Slav population in Greece. Suddenly an epiphany for those who claim 200,000! Etz Haim 16:41, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Of course, that assumes that all the Macedonian Slavs are voting for the Rainbow Party. Is that really a safe assumption? I agree that 200K sounds way too high, though. :) Perhaps they're counting Greek people of Slavic descent as well as those who consciously regard themselves as Macedonian Slavs... -- ChrisO 17:29, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Counting Greek people of Slavic descent? Is this measurable? What on earth may suggest that someone who speaks Greek, has a Greek name, a Greek lifestyle, and most important of all, considers himself Greek has some Slavic ancestry? The only possible way is to force DNA tests on the Greek population, but this, besides of its uttermost stupidity, comprises a great deal of totalitarianism, and again it would fail to prove anything.

As I've already stressed, the Rainbow Party votes are an indirect measure of the Slav population. They're election results, not census data. It would be the best to say that it represents those who are politically motivated to support the Macedonian Slav minority activism. That would of course exclude those with Slavic descent that consider themselves Greek and have no intention at all to support the Rainbow Party. But again, who would dare speak on their behalf and deny them the right to identify themselves as Greek?

Because I support EVERYONE's right of ethnic self-identification that should be ultimately respected, I urge my country to finally recognize its Macedonian Slav minority. This would furthermore prevent some people's wild imagination to come up with figures such as 200,000. Etz Haim 18:39, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Again and again and again the same stuff by the same people...

My guess is that you don't want to understand what I say.This organisation is not official,nor relyable for the reasons I mentioned above.Don't say that EU made this speculation, it's wrong. There are no 100000 macedonian-slavs in Greece,where are they?And if Greece harasse them and they are so many,why only 6000 voted their party,as you and your FYROM friends claim?And who are you to question Greece about their census?If you and your friends claim that there are indeed 100000 macedonian-slavs in northern Macedonia that is you opinion and don't try sneaky to involve EU.Kapnisma 13:05, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Oh,dear ChrisO and something else,

Since you declare so loudly the fact that you are neutral and since you believe that this unrelyable,unofficial organisation is in fact relyable to prove your self neutral and not hostile to Greece I expect that you also make changes in the demographics of Germany, since this website claims that 1/3 of the German population is a minority named Low-Germans(!!!) who demand more recognition (!!!!),in the demographics of France, since this website claims that in there exists a minority of 100.000 Savoyans(!!!????),a minority of 13.000.000 Occitans (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????) who also demand recognition,not to mention what it claims about Italy,Spain,Danes,etc,etc....

So, my dear friend,protector of neutrality (sic), if you dont make these changes in the demographics of the above States according to this unrealyable organisation,which as you wrote exactly above

The site isn't an official EU one, but the estimate appears to be - it's from the EU's INTERREG II programme,

you will prove yourself being hostile,mean and having complex towards Greece... You friend,Kapnisma 16:06, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

At the risk of repeating myself, we have to report the claims of each side. If you delete one side's claims while leaving in those of your own side, that'll be a violation of the NPOV policy. There is simply no reliable data that we can use, nor will there be unless someone does an accurate demographic survey. -- ChrisO 17:29, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dear ChrisO

At the risk of repeating my self

Please stop trying to teach me neutrality and don't present yourself as neutral,because you are not... You haven't made the changes I've asked, Why? You continue to claim that the number 100000 is EU estimate, which is false, Why? Have you ever been to Greece?Because I live in Macedonia (Greece in case you get confused-sic- which region I mean) and I'm trying to find where are all these macedonian-slavs...Are they hiding?You used a silly argument above that they (who are those people anyway?) are counting Greeks of Slavic origin.Oh,yeah? And how exactly they estimated this thing?By asking one by one all the inhabitants of Macedonia(Greece-again for the above reasons)?They asked 2.450.000 people one by one: Are you of Slavic origin?...Mercy...

According to my memory neutrality means to present all opinions in an equal way,but when I see something ridiculous I can't accept it.

So, dear protector of neutrality,as long as you don't make the changes in the demographics of Germany,France,etc,etc (since you claim that you source is a EU one and that you are neutral) I can't accept those ridiculous claims hereKapnisma 21:51, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Let me spell this out simply, so that there's no misunderstanding...

1. Euromonitor.org isn't an official EU website.

2. However, it quotes a population estimate from INTERREG 1994.

3. INTERREG 1994 was a European Union programme to improve interregional cooperation (hence the name).

4. The population estimate quoted by Euromonitor.org therefore comes from an EU source.

5. It's therefore true to say that the EU has estimated the Macedonian Slav population in Greece to be 100,000 people.

Whether or not you agree with the INTERREG 1994 estimate is irrelevant. The fact is that the estimate exists, even if you don't agree with it, and it needs to be mentioned. Because there's no hard data, it's no more or less legitimate than the Greek estimate. We can't say for sure which figure is the true one because we don't know and without census data, we have no way of knowing. In this situation, the NPOV policy requires us to mention both points of view. -- ChrisO 22:29, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Point for User:ChrisO: I wouldn't give too much credit to any numbers released by any Greek goverment, present and past included, since it's been shown that they fix the numbers (Spiliotopoylos Vs Tsojatzopoylos/Xrisoxoidis Vs Alogoskofis, anyone?). Project2501a 15:42, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Risking repeating myself

1. I clearly discredit that an EU source claim a 100.000 minority in Greece.

2. Since you claim INTERREG 1994 says of a 100.000 minority in Greece,are you also implying that the same source (INTERREG 1994) claims of a 13.000.000 Occitans minority in France? Because Euromonitor.org claims it, according INTERREG 1994.And using exactly the same way that you thinking :It's therefore true to say that the EU has estimated the Occitans population in France to be 13,000,000 people. DO YOU AGRY?

3. Since you agry to what Euromonitor.org claims about Greece and you arer certain about their estimates why you don't make the same changes in the articles about Germany,France,Italy,Spain,Sweden,Denmark,etc,etc?

4. I clearly discredit your neutrality as long as you don't make the same changes in the articles about the minorities in other E.U states.

5. As long as you continue to write that the number 100.000 is according to E.U. estimates which is not true because E.U. does not claims it,we will continue to disagry.Kapnisma 23:22, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Protector of neutrality why you continue not answering to these simple questions?Kapnisma 23:13, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Euromonitor's other articles about other countries are irrelevant to this discussion. We're only talking about Greece here. The only issue is whether the estimate comes from an EU source. If it comes from INTERREG 1994, an EU programme, clearly it does. Equally clearly, Wikipedia's NPOV policy requires that we mention both sides' population estimates. I might ask why you're not objecting to citing INTERREG 1994's estimate of the Macedonian Slav population of Albania? Could it be that you're only interested in Greece?

Since you obviously aren't going to address this issue, I've asked that the article be protected against further reversions. I've also added it to Wikipedia:Requests for Comment, so we should hopefully be getting some views from other Wikipedians. -- ChrisO 00:42, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

---

Leave aside the dispute for a moment, there's one or two simple questions that desperately need answers:

• So far, it seems that INTERREG comprised a minority research ordered (or sponsored) by the EU. Did the EU endorse the results of the research?

It would appear that it published the figures, but I don't know whether you could say that this was an endorsement. Unfortunately the text of INTERREG 1994 doesn't appear to be on the web (the programme concluded in 1999 and the EU's website was only set up in 2001).

• What methods did they use and how did they conclude in a number such as 100,000?

The 10,000 of the Greek estimate happens to be the product of the Rainbow Party percentage (0,1%) and the Greek population (10 million). In the absence of census data, the votes of the Rainbow Party are the only actual measurement that cannot be disputed. On the other hand, everything ranging from zero to a million is an estimate, not a measurement. My opinion is to stick with what we have and explain the situation verbosely, instead of letting the reader make his guess between numerical extremes. Etz Haim 00:29, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree, the methodology is obviously a key question, but it's equally a question for the Greek estimate - as I said earlier, the Greek estimate appears to assume that all Slavs in Greece would vote for the Rainbow Party. Don't any of them vote for mainstream Greek parties? I can't see how that assumption could safely be made (and I note that nobody seems to have provided a source for the Greek estimate - at least I managed to source that figure of 100,000!). I suspect that INTERREG probably relied on an estimate provided by the Slav community. But that brings us back to the key problem - we cannot regard either estimate as definitive, so if we include one and not the other, it's inherently POV. We have to include both. -- ChrisO 00:42, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What ChrisO said. Project2501a 15:38, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You've misunderstood something, and that's probably my fault. I've always assumed that the Greek estimate derives from a method that takes into account the Rainbow Party votes. I've mentioned that 0,1% * 10M = 10K because this provides a measurement to compare with the estimate. The methodology has to be examined in both cases.

People who have some percentage of Slavic origin, may vote anything but the Rainbow Party, because they identify themselves as Greek. The Rainbow Party and the "Slav community" cannot claim to represent anyone else but their own voters. Imagine if Greece claimed that all those in FYR Macedonia who have some Greek ancestry are Greeks... Just as I've already said, EVERYONE has the right to ethnic self-identification that should be ultimately respected.

If INTERREG relied unilaterally on the "Slav community" to provide their numbers, then they essentially did no research, and their results are biased. Which makes us return to the first question: Did the EU actually endorse these numbers? Etz Haim 01:16, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Etz. Project2501a 15:38, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The hypocrisy in it's greatest glory!!!!!

ChrisO,

1. You continue to claim that the source you provited is valid only for Greece,but you refuse to do so for other E.U. members...

2. You refuse to make similar changes about the minorities of other states, according to the source you provited.

3. You justify yourself with the ridiculous claim that here we discuss about Greece.(I suppose you are neutral(sic) only about Greece,right?)

4. You continue to claim that your source is an E.U. source, when it is obvious to anybody, apart from you, that this source is not an E.U one.

5. I clearly discredit your neutrality and your intentions as long as you don't make the same changes in the articles about the minorities in other E.U states,using the same source.

5. You continue to involve E.U. to justify FYROM's nationalistic claims.

6. You are still using the ridiculous claim that your unrelyable source estimates the Greeks of Slavic origin,how on earth these people managed this thing? When was this cencus made? Who made it?.... And you still claim that it is from E.U.,....Kapnisma 07:58, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You have just crossed the line here ChrisO, You called me nationalist in Wikipedia:Requests for Comment ? Aren't you ashamed of this? I return to you your miserable characterisation and I urge the people responsible for this site to protect me from your miserable personal attacks.Kapnisma 10:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I really cannot be bothered to read the whole of the dialogue, however:

Capnisma, Greece is one of the few countries in the world which does not include the criterion of mother tongue and ethnicity in its census and which claims that all "Greek citizens are Greeks". This is a unique case of disregarding of minority rights and especially since the country ís member of the EU deserves severe condemn. Until you continue to deny your citizens the right to self-determination, there will be various numbers floating in the air and that's something you can blame yourselves for.

The figure of around 10,000 Macedonian Slavs which is based on the number of the voters for the Rainbow party is basically correct and this is usually the number of people with Slav Macedonian consciousness quoted also by sources outside Greece. The higher numbers (100,000 and above) are usually described as Greek citizens with Slav origin which is scarcely equal to Macedonian Slavs.

ChrisO, the number of Macedonian Slavs in Albania is a result of an Albanian census, I checked it yesterday. You can find that info in most compendium on Slavic languages. The information of what Macedonian groups think the number of Macedonian Slavs in Albania is has no place here. I can quote what various Bulgarian groups think about the number of Bulgarians in Greece, Macedonia and Albania but this has nothing to do with either census results or estimates by international organisations. I have also other objections to your edits but I am going to direct them to you personally. VMORO

VMORO, whether you believe it or not,whether you like it or not, Greece has not signiphicant minorities.Apart from the muslims in Thrace, which are either of Turkish either of Pomak origin (about 140,000) the numbers of other minorities (Jewish-Greeks,macedonian-slavs,Roms,Albanians) are so little that become meaningless to refer to them as minorities,they are ethnic groups.Of course macedonian-slavs exist, but not as macedonians in Greece.And their state has the name FYROM according to E.U.,U.N.,etc not the name you provocativaly say.

Don't lecture me or my country for harassing minorities.Greece is a democratic country and member of European Unity since 1981, so your high-handed accusations are meaningless.

I'll leave it to any 3rd grader as an exersize to point out the flaws to your logic... Project2501a 15:38, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

My problem is that this person (ChrisO) tries to persuade us that the number of macedonian-slavs in Greece is 100,000 according to E.U.,which is false. If he likes,he can write that they are 15,000,000, I don't care as long as he doesn't involve E.U. because E.U. does not claim the existance of 100,000 macedonian-slavs in Greece. Kapnisma 12:30, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And you don't try to tell me: believe it or not. No, I don't believe it, this is something you claim yourself. I'll believe an official census and since Greece has feared to conduct such one in decades, I have a good reason to believe that Greece has significant minorities of Vlach, Bulgarian, Macedonian Slav, Roma and Albanian origin. Even throughout its membership in the EU, Greece has been constantly accused of breaking human rights. VMORO

An other fine exaple of complex towards Greece by neighbouring nations.... Instead of making high-handed accussations(I suppose your country is the most fine example of democratic organisation,right?) come visit Greece to see by yourself those minorities you claim.So, Vlachs are also a minority,right? So according to you (since I'm Vlach from my mothers side)I'm not Greek but Vlach?According to you I'm minority?According to you Ioannis Kolettis (as Vlach )the founder of Megali Idea and first prime minister of Greece was minority?According to you Averoff (as Vlach) minister during Balkan Wars was minority?According to you his brother who gave the money to buy Greece's battleship Averoff(you can see this ship nowadays at Salamina as a museum) during Balkan Wars was minority?

Mercy....' What else are we going to hear today?...What else?... Kapnisma 13:30, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Point and set for VMORO. The Greek goverment is not exactly known for it's accuracy and objectivity.... :) Project2501a 15:38, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Why, can't you protect yourself? Project2501a 15:38, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't know what you gonna hear, but I would like to hear both sides before drawing a conclusion. To be specific, i'd like to see official census data which can be cross verified, ie, 2-3 census from Greece, the EU and an independent third source. Till, then i say we keep the main article as is, but, we indicate that there's a mix-up with the census data, since the Greek goverment hasn't conducted a proper sencus for ages. Project2501a 15:38, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Regarding ChrisO's initiative for "dispute resolution": Kapnisma has every right to become upset when you ask for comment first by calling him a nationalist. This is against the RfC policy, and can only create prejudice. If I was the one to ask for that RfC, I would put it that way: "Should we mention an independent source as one endorsed by the EU?" or "Has the EU ever made any statement/intervention regarding the Macedonian Slav population in Greece"?

As for the NPOV policy, ChrisO has been making a mockery of it by disregarding his (and everyone's) responsibility to double-check his sources, as well as, by stressing his intention to include "both" sources, meaning the Greek source and the one that is allegedly EU. If you do want to include both sources, include the Greek and the Macedonian Slav estimate, without falsely presenting that the EU has sided with the Macedonian Slavs. This eurominority.org cannot possibly inspire any credibility. With all its funny little adornments, the RoM national anthem, and the expired flag with the Vergina Sun on it, this website is a shame for those who maintain it. Etz Haim 16:58, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

To user Project2501a:, I never,ever said that Greece holds fine census data,problems exists but when people from other states pretend to be democratic and liberal and present Greece as hell on earth as it conserns human rights,it makes me angry.

I'll accept that. Greece is no hell on earth, as far as human rights go, but it aint no paradice, either :) (side note: Dodge the draft. push your draft date as further in the future as you can. My sources say that conscription in Greece is gonna be abolished by 2010 ;)

The reason I called for protection is not my disability (as you imply),but the fact that I don't want to respond to him using the same altitude resulting in furious confrontations.

Disability? i never implied you are disabled :P I am though questioning your appeal to the powers that be (in this case, the people wikipedia operators), to save you from defemation. Please don't do that. it makes you and as a consequence, me, look bad, since as a nation, we got a history of asking for help when we're feel threatened. Light up your smokes, (in my case, my [[Cojiba cigar), get your drink of choice on (Grey Goose vodka), get a keyboard you feel comfortable typing with (Microsoft Natural Elite Wireless 2.0) and open a couple of Cans of Proverbial Written WoopAss™ on the person you think is defaming you. I think what Snoop Doggy Dog would say about this situation would be "Puff on the L and sip on your jin and juice, while you keep your pimp-hand strong by slapping the ho." ;)

Conclusion:

1. I never questioned the right of someone to express himself.

2. I do not accept hypocrisy (read my debate with ChrisO)Kapnisma 18:50, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dully noted, will read the debate again. Project2501a 00:26, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In order to solve this dispute (regarding the Macedonian Slav population estimates, and nothing more) and unprotect the page, my suggestion is to include two estimates for every country mentioned: One of the country's own government and the official estimate published by the FYROM government. I agree with VMORO that unofficial numbers claimed by groups (or individuals) with no endorsement/recognition have no place here. Etz Haim 10:48, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The only EU source that I could find is this report for Euromosaic, available only in French [1]. Another document I found is the Greek Helsinki Monitor report on the issue at [[2]] (word .doc format). Hope this helps.

Another thing: Occitane example may not be applicable. People who speak Occitane are French by ethnicity, just like people who speak both Low German and High German are Germans, and people who speak English are not necessarily English. Languages often share distribution with ethnicities, but often they do not. The number of Slavic Macedonian speakers is a good pointer to the number of Slavic Macedonians, while e.g. religion would not be. In other places, like Bosnia, it's the other way around. Zocky 14:38, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I second this. Most of the people who speak "(Slavo)-Macedonian/Bulgarian" (as the document in French says) consider themselves Greek, even famous people like the former government minister Giorgos Lianis, and there are many other less famous as well. There are 13,000,000 Occitans by definition (Southern France = Occitania), and some of them speak a variant of Occitan. However, only a minuscule percentage of them considers their being Occitan different than being French, and this is reflected by the extremely low percentages of the (separatist) Partit Occitan (POC). Both POC and (non-irredentist) Rainbow Party are members of the European Free Alliance. Etz Haim 09:48, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

User:Kirev's request

I kindly ask the editor to rename "Macedonian Slavs" topic to "Macedonians". The people involved in discussion didn't show any proof that there are any "Macedonian Slavs" in existence anywhere in the world. Just check this google link for about 17000 documents macedonian site:.gov.au to see that Australia fully honours the right name of Macedonians.

Secondly, I also ask for a change of the references in all the pages where "Macedonian Slavs" are mentioned and substituted with "Macedonians" i.e. first and foremost the "Macedonian Slavs" page.

Thirdly, as Macedonians have a country - Republic of Macedonia is that country (Constitution of Macedonia is to be found here Constitution), Macedonians should be moved out of the Category:Slavic Ethnic Groups [[3]] (all mentioned there are "country-less") and put into the Category:Slavic Nations [[4]].

It's a pitty that some people spend so much time and effort with shaky "historical" documents instead of just observing contemporary reality. All the individuals in the world have the human right of self-determination and self-declaration. Macedonians are not an exception.

Dear friend, there's not such a thing as a specific "editor" for this or any other article here on Wikipedia. Articles are edited by the community, and disputes on controversial matters such as this are resolved by a process that relies on consensus and the neutral point of view policy. As for your objection, this article does not deprive you of your right of self-declaration, but equally enables both you and me (a Greek Macedonian) to call ourselves Macedonians. The fact that Greek Macedonians call themselves so is part of a contemporary reality too. Etz Haim 01:10, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That is exactly the eesence of our dispute, my friend. No Greek denies your existence and furthermore your right to call yourselves as you like.But you must respect the history and culture of others.By claiming to be called Macedonians using arbitrarily without any reason this term you are being seen by the Greeks as falshificators of their history.Using your way of thinking, if tomorrow an other nation desides to be called Attica,what should happen?The Greeks of Attica will lost their right to be called Athenaeans and we will start saying that the ancient Athenaeans were not Greeks but Atticans?This is not a rational way of thinking,it shows irresponsibility and fanatism.There are better ways to declare that you are a separe nation than to trying to steal others history and culture to justify your existence. By the way your point of view is clearly presented in all articles referring to Macedonians. Kapnisma

Macedonians are Macedonians. Greek Macedonians are Greek Macedonians. Ancient Macedonians are Ancient Macedonians. Is it so complicated? I do not see any Greek census data with any Macedonians self-declared as such. On the contrary, we have self-declared Macedonians in Republic of Macedonia, some in Bulgaria, some in USA, Canada, Australia... But there are no (self-declared) Macedonian Slavs anywhere in the world. It is that simple.

Denying basic human right is not the very best way to deal with this issue.

And, again, I'm not discussing anything historical, speculative or whatever. I'm just pointing you to the present facts.

Regarding the right to call yourself a Macedonian, I do not deny that right, too. It's up to you. But don't forget that in your country there are no self-declared Macedonians, but Greeks only. When you decide to self-declare yourself as Macedonians, than we can try to resolve that. Now, we have no problems - you are Greeks (even Greek Macedonians) and we are simply Macedonians.

--Kirev 14:36, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Greeks are Macedonians. Slav Macedonians are macedonian-slavs: My dear friend, this is exactly the altitude that macedonian-slavs use towards Greeks that makes them angy... Suddenly Tito desided to baptise your people as Macedonians(for well-known reasons...),exploiting a term for his advandage.You claim our history,our heritage,our symbols...You learn to hate Greeks,the same time that actually Greece is the country that supports you financially more than any other... No, my friend we don't hate you,we don't want to destroy you,we just want you to stop stealing our heritage to justify your existance... No, my friend we, as Greeks, are Macedonians and you ,as Slavs, are macedonian-slavs... Kapnisma 09:08, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Macedonians and Macedonian Slavs: Whether you like it or not, the name accepted in English is Macedonian Slavs. Look around the other Encyclopaedias, as well as scientific literature. Certainly every people can choose its own name (and the arguments of Etz.Haim are complete bollocks) - but in its language. You cannot make any demands on the English-speaking world. And I'll only remind you the Hungarians are actually Magyar, the Germans are Deutscher and the Finns are Suomi. VMORO

Wikipedia:Civility. Etz Haim 07:12, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

References please? Regarding the "baptising" of Tito... You're wrong, but anyway, it is not the point of my discussion at all. The only thing that matters is the present situation (more than 2 million Macedonians in existence and not a single Macedonian Slav). Therefore, as Wikipedia should provide the correct data, "Macedonian Slavs" reference should not be used for naming of contemporary Macedonians. Again, if you decide to self-declare you as a Macedonian than maybe we can think of these two references Macedonian (Greek) for you and Macedonian for us (even some other possibilities exist). But you will not dare to self-declare you as a Macedonian in any census, isn't it so? What are you afraid of? Or your democratic country does not allow you to self-declare yourself? C'mon, the great Hellenic Republic is afraid of Macedonians (whoever they are)...

Secondly, regarding the right to self-declare "IN YOUR OWN LANGUAGE", as user VMORO pointed out. Is that "argument" based on some reference? In UN Declaration of human rights there is no such thing. Can you enlighten me please? The reality is that Macedonians can ask for their own name in any language in the world. As Peking become Beijing. As Cote d'Ivoire asked in the UN not to be called Ivory Coast. As Venezuela asked to be called Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Belorusia became Belarus... That's it. Macedonians are not an exception no matter how hard you try to "prove" otherwise.

Can you please use more references?

Thanks, --Kirev 12:34, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Then send letters to the UN, the U.S. administration, all the scholars in "Slavonic studies", etc. Tell them they are wrong and demand what you think is your own right. And good luck - if you succeed in turning around the opinion of the rest of the world, I'm sure Wikipedia will follow suit rather quickly. Until then - don't complain about it here. VMORO

You really make me laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dear friend, try to use common sence for once and abord the fooolishness that you were instucted.I will NOT use in any census the term Macedonian, because I am Greek and Macedonians,as the ancient ones,are Greek,what do you expect?Those ones from Epirus for example they will not say I'm Greek, but Epirotis?

You realy believe that the ancient Macedonians were Slavs, like you?

Who told you so? Your FYROM teacher?

Try to justify your existence without trying to steal others heritage, because you are stating ludicrous comments Kapnisma 12:54, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

After your statement,friend I withdraw my laugh and my characterismKapnisma 13:59, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The point of this discussion is to discuss the contents of the main page. This is not a forum to host political discussions, and certainly the Macedonian dispute is not going to be solved here. As for Kirev's nationalist delusions of grandeur and his suggestion that we should be afraid of him because of his alleged ancestors, so much of his contact with "contemporary reality". Take a friendly advice and try to establish some self esteem based on yourself and your qualities. Etz Haim 13:32, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Deletion of my comment that was supposed to be funny but now it is an excuse to disregard the facts I cite:

"Hm, on a second thought, if we are descendants of Alexander the Great, than we are very dangerous people. That's the problem, you all believe that we descend from Alexander the Great, therefore this "fear" that we are very, very dangerous nation... ;-)"

Can't you see the smiley at the end? So I will delete it as you are taking it too seriously. The rest remains as it is.

--Kirev 13:50, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The "facts" that you cite are based on your prejudice against Greece. My government, an ineffective bunch of bureaucrats, is responsible for many things that have gone the wrong way and are part of the Greek "contemporary reality", but has never deprived a Greek Macedonian his right to call himself Macedonian. Why would they anyway? It would be stupid and self-destructive, in other words something that only you could suggest. As for the census data, Kapnisma has given you an answer. Etz Haim 14:28, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Census rules in Greece: Is there a possibility for you to declare yourself as a Macedonian in an official census? No? Why not? As far as I know, there's the possibility only to declare your religion. Even that Greece has Turkish minority, the official government wording is "Muslim minority". So everyone that is Orthodox Christian is just and only Greek. Therefore, you claim that you are a Macedonian, but you are deprived of your right to self-declare yourself as a Macedonian. By your own government.

As far as I remeber, last May there was a congress of the Rainbow Party in Solun, wasn't there? Hotel Kapsis or something like that. Macedonian language spoken freely after almost a century? Even more, Greek policemen with teargas guarded the Congress against the skinheads and other protesters on the street Solun May 30, 2005 . So the Greek government recognizes Macedonians, but you do not... Interesting.

Definetely this has no sensible direction. Can you only answer me if there are any self-declared "Macedonian Slavs" anywhere in the world? No? That's why I ask for rename of the topic.

Discussion ends for me just about here. You can continue speaking about history, Tito, Alexander the Great and stuff like that. I hope that you wake up one morning and see the reality that "Macedonian Slavs" do not exist at all. But Macedonians do.

Cheerz, --Kirev 15:10, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's really sad how prejudiced and provocative you are my friend...Any linguist in the world can explain to you that your language is a bulgarian dialect,any historian can tell you,you have nothing to do with Macedonians...Still, you are so blind from your homeland's propaganda, that you refuse to accept reality and you prefer to live in darkness,like an ostrich...It's sadly...

And something else, my provocative friend: The name of the city is the Greek THESSALONIKI, as it was founded by Cassander in 315 B.C., not the slavic one solun (which by the way means in old Slabonic City of Salt) Kapnisma

Dear Kirev, the status of the recognition of the Macedonian Slavs in Greece is a whole another issue addressed in the discussion made before your request to rename this article. Your request has nothing to do with it, and has contributed nothing to it as well. If you cared to read the talk page, you would see that every Greek user taking part in this discussion acknowledges that there is a problem and wants the recognition of the Macedonian Slav minority.

Contrary to what you've been told, the Turkish minority is recognized by Greece according to the Treaty of Lausanne. The Muslim minority of Thrace includes muslim Turks, Pomaks, and Roma, and there are secular Turkish people in Greece, or Greek citizens of Turkish descent whatsoever, who are not muslim. Can you tell the difference between the Turkish and the Muslim minority?

As for the Rainbow Party congress, those who are responsible for the attempt to attack the congress are members of the extreme-right "Greek Front" that polled 0,25% in the last election [5], and the vast majority of the Greek society disapproved their behavior. On the contrary, those who succesfully attacked the Radko congress, with the blatant tolerance of your authorities, where made national heroes of your country.

So I advise you to try view the facts from a different perspective and listen to the other side's arguments. Etz Haim 16:13, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Time to move on

This discussion has been going nowhere for years. Clearly the proponents of both POVs are not going to admit that the other side is right. Therefore, I tried to work out what the issues are. I also tried to find out some facts.

1. What should this page be called?

   The naming convention is clear: Use the most commonly used name in English, dissambiguate if necessary. "Macedonians" is clearly ambigous enough to warrant a dissambiguation page and "Macedonian Slavs" is not the worst choice possible to name this page. I haven't seen any other suggestions, anyway.

2. How should the people be referred to in article text on this and other pages?

   The naming convention is again clear: Use the most commonly used name in English and dissambiguate if necessary in the context. To try to assess what the most commonly used name in English might be, I used the good old Google test. Usage in Greece and RoM overwhelmingly reflects the local POV, therefore I tried to establish which of the names is more commonly used to refer to the people of RoM outside each name's "home territory".

   • "Macedonian Slavs" yields 5.250 hits [6], 5.170 of them outside the .gr domain [7].
   • To see how often "Macedonian Slavs" is used outside the context of relations between RoM and Greece, I googled for "Macedonian Slavs", but excluded the words "greece", "greek" and the .gr domain. This resulted in 1.900 hits [8].
   • "Macedonians" yields 255.000 hits [9], but this is of course too ambigious to be useful. To make sure that this search excludes ancient macedonians, I excluded the words "greece", "greek", "ancient" and "alexander", as well as the .gr domain. The resulting search yielded 65.500 hits [10]. 55.900 of them outside the .mk domain. I went and checked the first 100 hits and 90 of them were indeed about RoM Macedonians, which gives us approximately 50.000 hits (compared to 5.170 or 1.900)
   • I also tried another, much simpler approach. Search for "Macedonian Slavs" and "Skopje" outside .gr yields 903 hits [11] and the search for "Macedonians" and "Skopje" outside .mk yields 43.600 [12].

I leave it to others to comment on these results and provide other research or sources, but please, don't just reiterate your points. We've all read them enough times and they're already there, just scroll up the page. I suggest we move to closing arguments and try to reach the consensus. Since this isn't exact science, a poll would also be an appropriate way to resolve the issue. Zocky 22:12, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Comments on Zocky's google test

Zocky, firstly I want to remind you that the conversation started because someone tried to justify macedonian-slav claims towards Greece using sneaky E.U.

Second, about the name of these people.I think that the term macedonian-slav is the most appropriate because it's between the opinions of both Greeks and macedonian-slavs.Greeks do not accept the use of the term macedonians for these people since the word macedonian is a Greek one,it describes a Greek region and the use of this word to describe the inhabitants of FYROM is seen as an effort to falshificate history and to steal Greek heritage.Of course these people have the right to call themselves as they like(for example I can start saying I'm from Mars),but I believe it's unaccepable to ignore others history and heritage and to demand from all to start calling them as they want. Kapnisma 08:44, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

== Kapnisma, "Your opinions" are not just political, they reek on fascism! But then again, fascism is also politics, isn't it? ==

Zocky, your research is <self-censored>. "Macedonian Slavs", "Slav-Macedonians", "Slavomacedonians" and all the "Macedonian" derivatives in other laguages and alphabets are phrasal supersets of the word Macedonian, so Google, that's not some artificial intelligence, will always yield more "Macedonians" than the rest. If a and b are positive integers, then it's always a + b > a. Etz Haim 09:16, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• First of all, languages other than English apply in wikipedias other than en. See [http:www.wikipedia.org www.wikipedia.org].
• a+b > a may be always true for positive numbers, but that doesn't mean that whether a>b is impossible to find out. The above google test tried to do that. If you actually take the time to study what I did, you will see that even after discounting all pages that have anything to do with Greece (and with them great many that do call the Slavic people "Macedonians") there are still 50.000 hits. That number is more likely to be an underestimate than an overestimate.

"Macedonian Slavs" is a'. "Macedonians" is a + b. Get it? Etz Haim 11:13, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• The total number of hits for your above examples is 8.880 [13], 8.440 when .gr is excluded [14]. Zocky 10:58, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Poll is unacceptable. Self-declaration is basic human right. Nobody can tell anyone how to call himself. 2,000,000 people around the world every 10 or so years "poll" themselves as Macedonians in official censuses. Not a single "Macedonian Slav".

Do you say Gypsies or Roma? SHiptars or Albanians? Krauts or Germans? The polite and only acceptable way is to ask those people how they want to be called. And again, 2,000,000 Macedonians made they choice.

Poll with just show the situation on the Internet in general - 4% Internet penetration in Macedonia (out of 2 million) will definetely lose to 20-30% in Greece (almost 10 million). And it will introduce a dangerous precedent that Wikipedia will not be ruled by facts but by outnumbering.--Kirev 00:50, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You say ".... Self-declaration is basic human right.......". But certain rules must exist. I cannot call my self German when I am Greek. Nor can Greece decide that from now on it will be called U.S.A.

The name "Macedonia" was used by Greeks 3.000 years ago so we came first. You have the right to use any name but none of the names that already characterize another nation (Newcomer 08:47, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC))

Another utterly stupid and fascist statement! It's true though, you came first to Pelopones - but from Africa! As for the right of using our name...who are you - the ultimate Godfather?! And since when is this Greek name in circulation? Please, don't get confused on me.

Look all of you: This is not a political decision on what the "true" name of the people is. It's an editorial decision on which words to use as a convention in Wikipedia. Your endless tirades are really unimpressive. Can any of you disprove that (1) "Macedonians" is too ambiguous to use as the article title, (2) "Macedonian Slavs" is the most commonly used unambiguous name, and (3) When not in the context of Ancient Macedon or relations between RoM and Greece, the slavic people is most commonly called simply "Macedonians"? Zocky 10:58, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Let's take a deep breath and consider the data points here:

1) The Republic of Macedonia is inhabited by a people who usually call themselves "Macedonians".

2) This meaning is ambiguous as it overlaps with the terms for the people who inhabit geographical Macedonia and the RoM itself (are the Albanians in Macedonia also "Macedonians"?), as well as the inhabitants of ancient Macedon.

3) No other ethnic group calls themselves "Macedonians" as a term of ethnic identity. Therefore the term "Macedonians" as an ethnic identifier is exclusively confined to those whom we're currently calling "Macedonian Slavs".

4) However, "Macedonian Slavs" also has ambiguities - Bulgarians, Serbs etc who live in geographical Macedonia are Slavs, and (geographical) Macedonians, and therefore also "Macedonian Slavs". It also isn't the most commonly used term by the ethnic group in question.

We could get around these problems by having three disambiguations for the term "Macedonians", as follows:

Macedonians -> Macedonians (ethnic group) -> Macedonians (geography) -> Macedonians (historical)

Each article would obviously need to be clear about the differences between the usage of each term. -- ChrisO 11:29, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

== 1. True, as in any other country for that matter (Blacks & Indians living in England don't reffer to English; Turks in Germany don't regard themselves as German etc). 2. Why is the term "overlapping" used here only? Will it apply to England, Bulgaria, Germany Greece... 3. Agree completelly. Why was the term "Macedonian Slavs" used in the first place is puzzling. Then again, having all these Metaxa fascist propagandists around.. 4. No, no, no...please don't get mixed up. "Slavs" means NOTHING, "Macedonian Slavs" even less! This is a coined term (as of recent) used by the propagandist media from "the West" (USA & UK primeraly). Bulgarians, which btw are not Slavs but Tatars, and Serbs are a very tiny minority so I don't see how these (and other) ethnic groups can be relevant to the final picture.

Finaly, your final statement is also wrong - Ethnic Group, Geography & History. It's all the same ==

In this case I would suggest grouping the geographical and historical so that the article Macedonians can be preserved withoút major structural changes. Another solution is to take out the section about the ancient Macedonians and turn into a separate article.

Can you separate the oil from the water? Or perhaps you know of (secret) formula that separates the human body in half painlessly?

As for the "designation problem or dispute", both names are problematic. Macedonian Slavs is usually the one accepted when talking about the ethnic group but it creates confusion as there are Bulgarians and Serbs who are technically Macedonian Slavs without being part of the ethnic group. The name Macedonians creates associations with the ancient Macedonians and the geographical concept Macedonian.

Why are you mixing Bulgarians and Serbs with Macedonians? Will you do the same with Lebanese, Jews and Iraqis?

If such a distinction is eventually made, I insist that the article titled "Macedonian Slavs" is preserved to reflect the period at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century when this name was coined and used to define the geographical concept "the Slavs of Macedonia" without the ethnic and political meaning which it has today. VMORO

A distinction? Is this good enough for you: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11260506&dopt=Abstract

ChrisO, I don't really mind what this page is called. I can live with it either way. I just want people to stop going around all other articles on my watchlist changing "Macedonians" and "Macedonian Slavs" forth and back every so often. Zocky 11:34, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What you are doing here is diverting the attention from a pending dispute (the Macedonian Slav minority in Greece) to another one. If the changes on your watchlist bother you, remove some pages from your watchlist to reduce your wikistress. Etz Haim 12:01, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What I am doing here is trying to establish what this page should be called and how the Slavic Macedonians should be refered to in articles. If your issues go beyond that, feel free to discuss them in other sections of this rather long talk page. What on earth gave you the idea that the issue of the Macedonian Slav minority in Greece could conceivable be solved by a Google test? Zocky 12:19, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Did I suggest such a thing? The logical fallacies of your approach make it unsuitable for what it claims to solve. How nice would it be really if we could solve the Macedonian dispute with a Google test! Etz Haim 12:31, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Macedonians (geography) are one or more Macedonian (ethnic groups) by the same definition. Is this supposed to be "disambiguation"? It doesn have to do with geography as much as it has to do with origin, Greek, Slavic or other. Also, the current structure makes it clear that the Macedonians are a superset of the Macedonian Slavs. Are you willing to sacrifice that as well?

I'm still expecting the official Macedonian Slavs in Greece population estimate from the government of FYROM, if there is any. This would unlock the article and end the debate for now. Etz Haim 11:46, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

== Wow, if this isn't a cheap fascist shot then I don't know what is! You must be very proud of your self, aren't you? So, you are waiting for an estimate from a country which doesn't exist (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia - FYROM), to give you the number of (REAL - not hermaphrodites!) Macedonians living in Greece? This is really deep and tells a lot about you and the current Greek mentality/government. It's like 1938 again...the Nazi government is asking the Israeli government how many Jews live in Germany at the moment. THIS ARTICLE CAN'T BE UNLOCKED BEFORE YOU (PEOPLE) UNLOCK YOUR FASCIST THINKING! ==

In 1938 there wasn't any Israeli government. By the way how do you propose to be called the Greek Macedonians? Newcomer 21:22, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Greek Bulgarians, of course. Vladko

You have a sence of humor OK. But you'd realize that most of us Macedonians are Greeks. By the way could you tell me what was the language of the ancient Macedonians? Or you think that they were using slavic idioms? Do you know what the religion of the ancient Macedonians was when the Slavs were wondering at the steppes of Asia 300 years B.C.?Newcomer 22:44, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Self-identification

Posted to article by anon user 66.163.29.168 and moved here by ChrisO

Please Note: the term Macedonian "Slavs" is often considered derogatory by ethnic Macedonians and is a term which has been used to de-nationalize and humiliate the ethnic Macedonian population in the Balkans. To date there has never been a census within which an ethnic Macedonian has declered him/herself as a Macedonian Slav. Every census within the Republic of Macedonia has shown a declaration of Macedonian ethnicity and not of a Macedonian "Slavic" ethnicity. In turn, no one refers to any other ethnic group in the world in terms of a possible linguistic tie. Ie. Bulgarian Slavs, Serbian Slavs, Anglo-Saxon English, etc...

== All I can add is that the Macedonians living throughout the world (not only in the Balkans) are equaly offended with this derogatory "Macedonian Slavs" term, still present on this site. It appears that for some people/nations ethnicity is merely a sport, a game. But, from what I know, I can assure you that an ethnic "political debate" isn't a game for any ethnic Macedonian - it's a matter of life and death! With such motives (games, theater..against real life stakes & survival), I wonder who will prevail in the end. Actually, it's very simple...let's do a DNA test and compare. Let's see who were the "Greeks" (whatever that means), and compare the present Macedonians to "Slavs" (whatever that means too). Let's see if we, the Macedonians, share more common genes with Russians, Poles, Slovaks etc, than with the Sicilians/Sardinians, Cretans, Lebanese, Jewish, French etc. If that's not convincing enough for some, then let's study & compare our physical appearence(s), gesticulations, behaviour etc. And I haven't spoken of the collective memory yet...Alexander (and his derived names) was/is an extremely common name with the Macedonians - always was! ==

Yes and the name Alexander is even more common in Greece.

No it's not! Nikos is by far more common name than Alexander with Greeks - Athenians.=

And not only the name Alexander but most other ancient Macedonian names like Parmenion, Crateros etc.

You are wrong. Although the Christian church tried very hard to eliminate all ancient Greek names refusing to baptize children with "non Christian" names the ancient Greek names are still present in Greece.

Hm...interesting. Care to elaborate more?

THE GREEK SAID........

"You say that you are not Slavs? Then why all endings in your names remind Slavs? "

THE MACEDONIAN REPLIED......

How many people in Romania or Georgia or Chechnya or Kazakhstan or Kyrgyzstan or Tajikistan or Uzbekistan have Slavic name endings?Are they Slavs too?How many Greeks have Slavic names that have been Hellenized?:)You are such a hypocrite.

THE GREEK SAID........ All these nations you mention like Georgians or Chechnyans or Kazakhstanis or Kyrgyzstanis etc have Slavic name endings because they were forced to do so by the Russians. The same happened with Turks who live in Bulgaria tha last years of the communist regime. Who forced you to change your names intoi Slavic? And if you are not Slavs why don't you change them again? I do not know any Greek with Hellenized Slavic name Can you give me an example? You call me a hypocrite. Why?

Do you know what Slavs means - even by current Greek political standards?

What do you mean "political standards"? Being or not being slav is a matter of race it's not political.

You talk about Self-identification. The same stands for us. Greek Macedonians isn't it?

How can you be a Greek and a Macedonian at the same time?! Are you a hermaphrodite? A political mulato perhaps?

Being Greek and Macedonian is as simple as being Greek and Athenian or Greek and Spartan. It is so simple.

And do not forget that in your multinational country only half the citizens declare themselves as "Macedonians" while all citizens in Greek Macedonia declare themselves as Greek Macedonians.

== Macedonia was a forbidden term in Greece as late as 17-18 years ago - do you remember "Northern Greece? I do! Your country (Greece) is definately more multinational than the current Republic of Macedonia! Only in Greece is possible to have a foreign minister, called Pangaloss, who says that his parents are Albanians (and spoke Albanian at home), but him, himself is a Greek! And I know and have seen a lot of this "monolithic Greekness" first hand! ===

You are wrong again. The term Macedonia was never forbidden in Greece. You say that you remember the term Northern Greece. Then you probably remember the song "Makedonia xakousti" one of the first songs young Greeks used to learn in elementary schools.

It is really funny to say that Greece is multinational, when 98% of the population are Greeks. As for the ex foreign minister Pangaloss, he never said that his parents are Albanians. He said that they come from the part of the Ottoman empire that now belongs to Albania and spoke Albanian at home but they were Greeks. They felt and knew they were Greeks although they used to live somewhere else even if they could not speak their language. I do not see anything curious. The same thing happened with Jews. When they returned to Palestine almost none could speak their language because they were speaking German, Russian,French etc.

Finally do not forget that the whole problem did not existed untill after the second world war, and that when pre war Jugoslavia collapsed under the axis attack the citizens of what is now FYROM hoisted Bulgarian flags to salute the advancing Bulgarian army.Newcomer 22:59, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, no, no...let's clear this stupid lie ones and for all.

The Macedonians in Greece participated (in huge numbers - formed the majority of the fighters overall) in the so called "Greek Civil War", only after they were promised, beforhand, by the Greek Comunist Party, to grant them a MACEDONIAN CULTURAL AUTHONOMY WITHIN GREECE afterwards! If you didn't know that, then guess why the Macedonians in the Yugoslavian (de facto Serbian) ocupation zone joined the Yugoslav Communist Party resistence the last (fighting the Invading Fascist Bulgarian Government Army was going to happen anyway, however). As for saluting the invading army and waving the flags of the invaders...if you only saw the propaganda news-reels from Prague, when the German Army entered the city, you would had a different picture of the events, wouldn't you? Obviously, you are shocked (then again, maybe not) by the very fact of excistence of an old nation such are the Macedonians. But if you read between the lines & dissregard the cheap propaganda created by the super powers of the time - do you really think that we THE MACEDONIANS dont't exist? Even today, after the huge decline, we number at least 3 million worldwide! Just how does one imagine to erase us - with enormous Nazi camp?

For a Greek (whatever that means), this matter is a sport - caffe talk and cheap entertainment for the (stupid) masses. For a Macedonian, however, this is a matter of life & death. Just think about it...

======You are partially right and partially wrong.

1.During the axis occupation of Greece most of Slav-Macedonians in Greece declared themselves as Bulgarians and helped the axis authorities not only with informations but also forming armed paramilitary groups that participated in anti-partizan operations and killed many Greek civilians. Most of them were accused for collaboration with the axis forces, murders of civilians etc. and fled Greece after the war.

2.After 1945 during the so called "third round" of the Greek civil war the Communist party of Greece (representing less than 10%) in order to gain support from Tito promised to the Slav-Macedonians in Greece to grant them a MACEDONIAN CULTURAL AUTHONOMY WITHIN GREECE afterwards!In fact this plan was first mentioned during the 20's by the Bulgarian Communist party. Can you mention any book, article, notice, report before 1920 that talks about a "Macedonian nation". Even after 1920 only the communists were speaking about it since it was a communist idea after all. Even today in Greece most communists are supporting you.

3.Who said that the Macedonians do not exist. We exist and we are here in Greek Macedonia feeling Greeks and Macedonians just like others feel Greeks and Spartans or Greeks and Ionians.

4.It is at least silly to talk about erasing of nations or "nazi camps". In Greek school books there are is not a single word against our neighbours while in FYROM the school books talk about "liberating" Greek cities from their Greek citizens. I really wonder who is dreaming of huge nazi camps. To us the whole talk is about the name and history only. And talkink of History tell me why the ancient Macedonians were speaking only Greek? Why the ancient Macedonians adored only Greek Gods? Why they spread the Greek language and civilization all over the world? If they were a different nation wouldn't they have spread their own language and culture?

Also. Do not forget that the Slav-Macedonian communists soon after the occupation of Yugoslavia by the axis forces asked to join the BULGARIAN communist party. Simply because they felt Bulgarians. Tito tried very hard to create a resistance movement in the area which is now FYROM. For this reason he sent Tempo in your area. The first resistance groups appeared only in 1943 when the axis defeat was almmost sure. Just check who was general secretary of the communist party in your area and his history. But you probably do not learn the whole truth in schools of a communist regime.

Also check about Metodi Shatorov (Sharlo) who was the leader of the Macedonian communists. He wanted his men to join the Bulgarian Communist Party because it was more comfortable during the 1941-1944. Tito had him expelled, so Sharlo moved to Bulgaria where he died a hero's death as a partisan in the early days of September 1944. --Vladko 05:08, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Immediate change of the term "Macedonian Slavs" into "Macedonians"

I demand that for the good of Wikipedia, the title of the article is immediately changed to Macedonians or at least Macedonians (ethnicity) and that all “Macedonian Slavs” references throughout are changed to “Macedonians.” Before anybody jumps to conclusions let me explain that the reason for my demand is purely practical and relates to the relevance of Wikipedia. As an encyclopedia, the goal of Wikipedia is to store knowledge and to inform people, but in the case of Macedonians, it fails to do both.

While the article itself ignores the Macedonian point of view and gets a few facts wrong, for the moment I am only focusing on the biggest mistake of all – the reference “Macedonian Slavs.” The reason I say that this term is wrong is not its historical nature but its practical use. The term “Macedonian Slav” is very rarely used today in media and official documents, except in the case of Greek correspondence. Major news channels such as CNN, BBC and Reuters, encyclopedias such as Britanicca and factbooks such as the CIA World Factbook use the term “Macedonians” in reference to the ethnicity Wikipedia currently calls “Macedonian Slavs”. International as well as personal documentation takes the term “Macedonian” as standard (I have lived in the U.K. and Belgium and my “Macedonian” nationality has never been disputed by any administration). The only country that disputes the usage of term “Macedonians” internationally is Greece. The biggest website to dispute the use of the term “Macedonians” is Wikipedia.

As it has been stressed several times, Wikipedia is by far the biggest generator of the term “Macedonian Slavs” on the Internet – not only is it the first hit on Google but its mirror pages follow very closely. Wikipedia is encyclopedia and as such it should not be active participant in the creation and distribution of any term, let alone a term that is considered derogatory by a whole nation. By keeping the rarely used term “Macedonian Slavs” over the widely used “Macedonians” (even as the historical debate continues), the Wikipedia is being manipulated into taking a side. In the end, what is really important about this article is that present-day Macedonians are, in fact, called Macedonians internationally, not that because of historical reasons Greece disputes the term “Macedonians.” --Ivica83 03:09, 9 June 2005 (UTC)

Naming proposal

Could the admins of the English Wikipedia, please move this article to Macedonians, or if that causes too much semantic problems (I doubt that, though), to Macedonians (ethnicity), Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (nationality), Ethnic Macedonians? I could do that myself, but I don't want to be labeled as a "nationalist" - so I will elaborate the reasons why this drastic change should be made. ChrisO made a fine list of facts:

1) The Republic of Macedonia is inhabited by a people who usually call themselves "Macedonians".

2) This meaning is ambiguous as it overlaps with the terms for the people who inhabit geographical Macedonia and the RoM itself (are the Albanians in Macedonia also "Macedonians"?), as well as the inhabitants of ancient Macedon.

3) No other ethnic group calls themselves "Macedonians" as a term of ethnic identity. Therefore the term "Macedonians" as an ethnic identifier is exclusively confined to those whom we're currently calling "Macedonian Slavs".

4) However, "Macedonian Slavs" also has ambiguities - Bulgarians, Serbs etc who live in geographical Macedonia are Slavs, and (geographical) Macedonians, and therefore also "Macedonian Slavs". It also isn't the most commonly used term by the ethnic group in question. (my bolds)

In addition, I would suggest several other reasons:

5) No one has copyright over geographical terms. The Bosniaks article shows us an example - although the term Bosnia is probably a christian (Byzanine or Serb/Croatian) term, no one seriously forbids these people (who are mostly Muslims) to declare themselves Bosniaks freely, though they have openly declared themselves as Muslims or Bosnian Muslims, until the early 90's.(Macedonians have clearly identified themselves as Macedonians, not Macedonian Slavs, for over 65 years, though there are good examples of a clear macedonian identity before that) Although, the example is not entirely appropriate, following the logic of the "Macedonian Slavs" term, Bosniaks should be labeled "Bosnian Muslims", in order not to offend Serbs or Croats, who have more "historical rights" over the term. Not to mention plenty of US towns which are named according to Greek towns - Athens, Syracuse etc.

6) There is a certain chauvinism in using tribal suffixes when referring to modern nations. Consequently, the are no Serbians, but Serbian Slavs, no Croatians, but Croatian Slavs, etc. The "Slavs" suffix subtly implies the "racial purity" of the inhabitants of RoM, while ancient Macedonians remained "pure Greeks" (actually, there is no hard evidence that ancient Macedonians were Greeks - they were considered "barbarians")). So it is assumed that Slavs remained an isolated tribe for over 14 centuries, and then suddenly in the 20th century they began to annoy the "pure Greeks", randomly. Actually, it is logical to think that the Slavs mixed with local inhabitants - mostly Ancient Macedonians, Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks. Should I mention the Celtic, Bulgar, Serb, Norman, Latin, Epyrote, Byzantine, Turkish invasions over the region of Macedonia - some of these reigned for centuries, and although the slavic dialects prevailed, we surely cannot speak of Macedonian Slavs, just as we cannot speak of Britannic Anglosaxons, Norman Anglosaxons etc. The modern Greek nation is not a "pure" Hellenic nation, also - Slavic tribes have reached as far as Pellopponesus, in some northern areas of modern Greece (mostly Macedonia) semi-autonomous Slavic states were formed, some of them lasted more than a century. Their inhabitants... have they simply dissapeared? Moreover, most of the invasions I have mentioned above also occured in mainland Greece. Ironically, given the ethnic complexities of the region, on some occasions, it is possible that some of the hardcore greek nationalists, are actually "more slavic" than their northern counterparts.

7) But, enough history. Almost every, if not, all, official documents never mention a Macedonian Slav ethnicity. They use Macedonians, instead. Moreover, Macedonians declare themselves as Macedonians, never as Macedonian Slavs, in all countries, so no country (except Greece and unofficially, Bulgaria) actually denies the existence of a Macedonian nation, nor their right to declare themselves as Macedonians. See the CIA website, for example.

8)It has been said, but I'll say it again - "Macedonian Slavs" is not a commonly used name for the inhabitants of RoM. Of the encyclopedias I've encountered only MSN Encarta uses that term, while Britannica finds Macedonians a more appropriate term. Most major news agencies use "Macedonians" instead of "Macedonian Slavs". Actually, BBC and CNN with their reportages of the 2001 crisis used the term "Macedonian Slavs" , but their attitude was briefly changed. Ever since, they ALWAYS use the term "Macedonians". Zocky's Google test is a further indication about how "common", is the "Macedonian Slav" term.

9)The sad thing is, that, actually, Wikipedia makes ground for the common usage of the "Macedonian Slavs" term which is considered derogatory, even racist, by the vast majority of Macedonians. The right for self-determination is a basic human right. As an admin of the Macedonian Wikipedia I found it very hard to convince a wider macedonian public to participate in the macedonian wiki project - they immediatelly think that Wikipedia is not a "free Encyclopedia" before they even get to know the basic wiki concepts and culture (I highly condemn the macedonian vandalism that has occured on this page). This is mostly due to how they have been portrayed in sensitive articles concerning Macedonian history.

In conclusion, I find no moral, logical, historical and practical arguments for the current title of this article, and I personally find it offensive. I kindly ask the neutral admins observing this discussion to move the article to Macedonians (with a disambiguation link in the upper part), or Macedonians (ethnicity), Macedonian (ethnic group), Macedonian (nationality) or Ethnic Macedonians. Best regards. --FlavrSavr 03:18, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

authors of wikipedia are IDIOTS!

they dont know anything...if they went to any real sources for information other than greek(who think they rule all and own everything) people they would have made a much better and true page. MACEDONIANS ARE MACEDONIAN...NOT GREEK...MACEDONIA CONQUERED GREECE AND ONE DAY ALL OF MACEDONIA WILL BE TOGETHER AGAIN!!!!! MAKEDONIA ZA MAKEDONCITE!!!!!

I'm sorry, I know that we are on the same side but your post doesn't help at all. The current status of Macedonians on the Wikipedia is indeed shaped by the Greek and Bulgarian views but in reality it doesn't have to do anything with the IQ of the authors/editors. The current problem is based only on the low activity of Macedonians on these pages, that is the absence of the Macedonian side in the discussion, but this is gradually changing. What we really need now is sober review of the arguments, a review that will be unbiased in the face of pressure and insults. I believe 100% that such a review will finally get Wikipedia in line with the rest of the world and accept the term "Macedonians" over the inacurrate and politically outdated term "Macedonian Slavs." --Ivica83 21:41, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia authors are not idiots. Actually there is no "author" in the classical meaning of this word, everyone has the right to contribute, that's why it's the Free Encyclopedia. --FlavrSavr 00:23, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You must be kidding. The truth is that Macedons were Greeks. There is not a single doubt about that. So stop posting propaganda.