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November 16

Person who is ambidextrous

What would you call a person who is ambidextrous? An ambidextrite? An ambidextrian? UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 17:10, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

An ambidexter. Alansplodge (talk) 17:43, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

How antiambisinister of you! μηδείς (talk) 04:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, wouldn't "dextrosinister" be a better word than "ambidextrous" ? StuRat (talk) 16:13, 17 November 2016 (UTC) [reply]

To be "ambidextrous" literally means to be "right-handed on both sides".[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:32, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Another antiambisinistrite comment! Next you'll be going on about omnipollexity! μηδείς (talk) 18:20, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Cash wrap

I recently saw the term "cash wrap" used. I've never heard/read it before. Apparently it means a cash register or point of sale. Is this a regional term? How long has it been around? I'm in the US and I believe the speaker is American. Possibly Canadian, I guess. Thanks, †dismas†|^(talk) 18:05, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This thing says that the expression is "a regular retail industry term for retailers, designers, manufacturers, and builders". Being none of those, I had never heard it before, either. Deor (talk) 18:13, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and the book Divided by a Common Language gives a British "translation", so the usage is predominantly American, seemingly. Deor (talk) 18:18, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

British, and have worked in both retail and manufacture, and have never heard the term. DuncanHill (talk) 23:01, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Never heard it until today. As Deor indicates, probably industry jargon. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:17, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've worked in a retail job or two in my life and, like I said, had never heard it. I appreciate the info! †dismas†|^(talk) 23:36, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

UK in popular usage

When did the the term "UK" become a popular name for the United Kingdon of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? It seems that in the past the most common term was Great Britain. I assume it was some time in the second half of the 20th century. Certainly after the second world war. Was it ever used before this time? Many thanks Stanstaple (talk) 19:29, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My impression was that the UK government responded to the Troubles by promoting the usage of UK instead of GB as the name of the state; the term UK includes the NI, whereas the term GB excludes it. This is also how .uk came to be used instead of the ISO 3166-1-standard .gb. --80.4.147.220 (talk) 20:39, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here is an early 1970s British driving licence emblazoned "Great Britain". Northern Ireland was almost entirely self governing through the Parliament of Northern Ireland at that time, until it all went horribly wrong and was dissolved in 1972 and the province became directly governed from Westminster. I suspect that may have been the tipping point, but I can't find anything to back it up I'm afraid. I remember as a boy watching an early Eurovision Song Contest, and our country being called "United Kingdom" sounded rather odd, it wasn't a label I'd heard before. Alansplodge (talk) 22:18, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. I would be surprised if the status of Northern Ireland was a factor in the adoption of the usage. Was the country not the United Kingdon of Great Britain in the 18th century before any part of Ireland was under the same parliament? Stanstaple (talk) 22:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, it was the Kingdom of Great Britain. Rojomoke (talk) 22:53, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit conflicted twice) No, the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland united to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801. DuncanHill (talk) 22:56, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My point was that most internal governance before 1972 specifically excluded Northern Ireland, and so the term "Great Britain" or "GB" was used. We are still "GB" for the International Circulation Mark because NI have their own plates and "Great Britain" for the Olympics, because athletes from NI have the option to compete for the Republic of Ireland. Misuse of the term "Great Britain" even occurs in our own dear Wikipedia, see Agreement Between Great Britain and Sweden Relating to the Suppression of the Capitulations in Egypt (1921) which should surely be "United Kingdom" instead. Alansplodge (talk) 11:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Even the League of Nations got it wrong sometimes: [2]. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:22, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We are still "GB" for the International Circulation Mark because NI have their own plates -- while it is true that NI reg differ from GB ones, there is no separate International Circulation Mark for NI. That being said, I see many NI reg cars on the roads of the Republic of Ireland, and vanishingly few sport any International Circulation Mark. jnestorius^(talk) 23:37, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Quite right - thanks. Alansplodge (talk) 20:19, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You can see search results for the UK on the Google Ngram Viewer.

—Wavelength (talk) 22:55, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

November 17

San Juan Wednesday

I'm learning all kinds of new phrases this week apparently. First "cash wrap" and now possibly "San Juan Wednesday". I just had a customer wish me a great one. Google seems unfamiliar with the phrase, either with quotes or without. Most results just gave me ideas for what to do at night in San Juan. The customer is in New Mexico and I'm in Vermont, so I'm not sure if it's a regional thing or what. Any ideas? †dismas†|^(talk) 00:05, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I tried searching for "Miércoles San Juan" and variations thereof. The best I can find is Ash Wednesday celebrations in San Juan, Puerto Rico, which doesn't make sense in the context of your recent conversation. Maybe you mis-heard part of it? --Jayron 32 02:41, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It was written in an email, so I couldn't have misheard it. He doesn't like the answer that I'm giving him, so I don't know if he'll be receptive to answering my off topic question. †dismas†|^(talk) 03:22, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Feast of Saint John is celebrated on the evening of the 23rd of June. That doesn't fall on midweek this year or next, though. μηδείς (talk) 04:51, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

St John Baptist is the patron saint of Oporto. His feast day is 24 June - it's a public holiday there. It's a quarter day over here, and it last fell on a Wednesday in 2015. Like Jesus, both ends of his life are commemorated - the Decollation is 29 August. That's unlikely to feature in a greeting, and it was Monday this year. The feast day of St John the Evangelist (who wrote the fourth gospel) is 27 December, which will fall on Wednesday in 2017. 92.8.63.27 (talk) 10:04, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Given where your customer lives, it could have something to do with Our Lady of San Juan de los Lagos - though I can't find an appropriate date link. Wymspen (talk) 10:07, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See [3]. The dates in our article appear to be correct. 92.8.63.27 (talk) 10:43, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but this year the December 8th date will be a Thursday. --Jayron 32 13:07, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If people celebrate John the Baptist's feast day on the previous evening maybe the celebrations start on Wednesday night? 92.8.63.27 (talk) 13:19, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The customer wished you a "great San Juan Wednesday", as in "Have a great San Juan Wednesday"? It sounds like it would be a pun or some other kind of play on words. Was it on a Wednesday that the email was sent? Could it be a typo or a lapse in thinking, resulting in something unintended? Maybe it was sent by a bot. Or spell-check might have "corrected" something to read a monstrosity that no human being could have thought of. Bus stop (talk) 13:22, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, the direct quote was "Have a great San Juan Wednesday!". I got the email yesterday, so yes, it was sent on a Wednesday. It was not a bot. I suppose he could have been using dictation software for his email though I have no idea how something would have been changed to that particular phrase. It was in closing to his email. †dismas†|^(talk) 18:12, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I tried speaking the words "Have a great San Juan Wednesday" to my phone's software and this is the text it produced: "Have a great send one Wednesday". So, "San Juan" may mean "send one". Bus stop (talk) 18:33, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Have a great send one Wednesday" is even less comprehensible than "Have a great San Juan Wednesday". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:10, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't suggesting that "Have a great send one Wednesday" was the intended text. There could be multiple errors. Bus stop (talk) 20:30, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible the customer has no idea that you are not where he is? That is, he's assuming you are also in San Juan, and is wishing you a great Wednesday. Is San Juan particularly noted for its Wednesdays? Or is every day a great day in San Juan? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:15, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to me the most likely explanation is they meant to type "have a great Wednesday", and then meant to type "San Juan" elsewhere in the email but the cursor moved on them. That happens to me sometimes, and I catch it only 80% of the time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is a common error—absentmindedly beginning to type with the cursor not correctly placed for that particular edit. And then of course failing to proofread. Bus stop (talk) 20:49, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Bangles - Manic Monday Bus stop (talk) 21:11, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fairly certain that the customer knows I'm not in his local area. †dismas†|^(talk) 22:49, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the same vein as Floquenbeam's suggestion, perhaps the person did not mean to type "San Juan" at all, but accidentally hit the keys or button to paste the words. I supposed asking the person what they meant is out of the question? --76.71.5.45 (talk) 05:14, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One of the 600 people that live there? --Jayron 32 17:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't there privacy concerns in regard to talking about this customer? --208.58.213.72 (talk) 09:00, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But it doesn't really reveal enough information to identify a letter-writer. Bus stop (talk) 14:04, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

November 18

Coining of 'vexillology'

Is it really true that the word 'vexillology' did not exist prior to 1958? Really? I'm struggling to accept this. What does the OED have to say about it? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:06, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Invoking British privilege....British privilege invoked.

The OED has 4 citations, and yes the first is October 1959; the journalist who uses it gives a gloss. The 1961 use refers to it as a word (" Editors Grahl and Smith use ‘vexillology’ and its cognates, vexillologist, vexillological."). The final example, 1970, shows how quickly a word can fill a gap: " In 1965 the first International Congress of Vexillology was held in the Netherlands." How did we describe the study of flags before we had that word? Carbon Caryatid (talk) 10:26, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I assume that it was considered to be a branch of heraldry. The Flag Institute (no poncey Latin words required) was " formed out of the Flag Section of The Heraldry Society on St George's Day, 23 April 1971". Alansplodge (talk) 11:14, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Smith" is Whitney Smith, the person who seems to get the credit for the coinage, and who died only yesterday. I came across this piece of information in his article. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:19, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For visuals: ngrams of 'vexillology,Vexillology,vexillologist,...'. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:41, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No ngrams for vexillography or vexilloid. The latter article mentions Smith as coiner of "vexilloid" too. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:47, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jack, I'm a little surprised you didn't make some word play about this vexing you. You feeling alright? Matt Deres (talk) 15:35, 19 November 2016 (UTC) [reply]

I'm spiffing, but thanks for your concern, Matt. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:48, 20 November 2016 (UTC) [reply]

Well, I'm as surprised by this outcome as I am about "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse" making its debut in The Godfather. Thanks, omnes. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:09, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

November 19

Polyglots

The article Polyglotism says

Individuals calling themselves "polyglot" generally speak, read, or otherwise use five or more languages, in some cases several dozen.

The article seems pretty uncritical to me, and the references in it seem kind of weak. Are there really people who have even a basic ability in a dozen, or dozens of, languages? Or is it just hype? Loraof (talk) 04:12, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's more of a matter how we define "to know a language" (CEFRL is a good start to evaluate). So it is possible that there may be people with the level A1 or A0+, who can know some hundred words and use and understand basic expressions in dozens of languages. It is not an impossible feat especially if a person has good memory. But hardly there are many people who know many foreign languages on the level of Nabokov. Though I never understood what is the use of knowing scores of languages but very badly, as I always favoured knowing only a couple of languages but well. Mostly because to learn a language you should spend many hours on it, but it is more reasonable to spend 1000 hours on one language and know it well, than to spend 100 or 50 hours on each of ten or twenty languages and know each of them badly. Moreover to spend hours on learning is not enough, you should constantly practise otherwise you'll forget the learnt language easily; so I can easily imagine how one may practise one, two or three languages, but I hardly have an idea how one is going to practise dozens of languages everyday. Also note that many people like to boast and tend to overestimate their or other's achievements (the latter is due to simple politeness, not many will say to one's face "your language skills are awful, your accent is terrible and you constantly make dozens of mistakes" - unless it is your examiner).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:48, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I made this edit to address what I think are valid concerns expressed here. Bus stop (talk) 14:22, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Normally, many people claiming to be polyglot are more than suspect to me.

Someone claiming in YouTube to be a polyglot. Proof is a video of him speaking some sentences in said languages.
Someone claiming to be polyglot, and is trying to sell a language teaching method, that will teach you a language really fast.

However, it would be difficult to call these people liar. The point is that it's not very well defined what means to speak a language. And the prefix "poly" is as well defined as the words "much/many" or "a lot". They are actually letting people believe that they know an amazing number of language. Indeed, their knowledge of the n language is quite basic or even not existing anymore. Llaanngg (talk) 14:46, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bizarre Bazaar

We have an article at bazaar. Where I live (SW Ontario) it seems to be used mostly in religious or quasi-religious contexts (church bazaars, Christmas bazaars, etc.) Anyway, what I'm curious about is how this word became adopted into English. I don't have anything against it, but we already have several terms that could be used in its place (market, rummage sale, yard sale, etc.) - and indeed the article suggests that market would be the NA/UK equivalent. Why would "we" adopt a word from Arabic/Persian, particularly one with a spelling that looks unusual in English and already sounds very similar to an existing word ('bizarre') when we had native options? Matt Deres (talk) 15:51, 19 November 2016 (UTC) I hope you can help; not knowing the answer would really stick in my craw.[reply]

According to this it entered English in the 1580s from the Italian "bazarra", and ultimately has its origins in the Pahlavi (Middle Persian, or Parthian) language. It is a false cousin of the word "bizarre", which as noted here entered English a half century later (the 1640s) through the French from a 13th century Italian word "bizza" meaning "fits of anger". --Jayron 32 16:36, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think the word bazaar primarily implies impermanence in distinction from a "market" that exists year-round, at least in my limited experience in the eastern USA. Bus stop (talk) 16:51, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, but there are plenty of synonyms that also imply that - rummage sale, for example. Though for that matter, I suppose I'd be more inclined to see those as only dealing with used goods, while a bazaar might include food or new-made crafts or clothes. TBH, I wasn't expecting Jayron to provide a ref that the word had been in English that long - I guess I assumed it was Victorian era at the earliest. What still strikes me as odd is the connection. Like, was there some dude throwing a sale back in the 1500s who decided "market" was a little too normal - and a Persian passing through provided a hipper name for it? There are tons of Arabic and Persian words in English but they're mostly loaners that came over with the thing they describe (algebra, alcohol, etc.). Matt Deres (talk) 01:54, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In UK usage the idea is more about the range of things on offer, rather than the impermanence of the set-up. We have long lasting chains of shops which use the word, simply because they sell a wide range of items. See Hawkin's Bazaar Wymspen (talk) 19:17, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And then there's Harper's Bazaar magazine, which strikes me as a bizarre name. Loraof (talk) 22:52, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also in the UK, a fund-raising event for a church, school or community group with various stalls indoors (bearing a plausible resemblance to a bazaar in the Middle East) is a bazaar, while a similar event held outdoors in the summer is a fête, bearing no similarity at all to a French festival. Alansplodge (talk) 15:07, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See Harpers Bizarre. Some of these events are called "a fête worse than death". 90.196.176.27 (talk) 16:34, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:WHAAOE: see A Fête Worse Than Death. Alansplodge (talk) 20:16, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's a latecomer. The pun has been around since at least as far back as the 1970s; former Australian politician Bill Hayden was famous for using it whenever he was required to open a fête. But I suspect it was used by punning sub-editors long before then. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:01, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I can beat that; it was the title of an episode of the BBC sitcom Hugh and I which was shown on 14 August 1962. But I expect somebody thought of it on the day that the first ever village fête opened its gates to the public. Alansplodge (talk) 23:05, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Harper's Bazaar magazine, which strikes me as a bizarre name." -- both "Bazaar" and "magazine" meant "place where various things are stored" before they meant "periodical covering a variety of topics". jnestorius^(talk) 13:06, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

November 20

Two questions

Two questions: 1) Why do we say merCHandise but merCantile? 2) Why do we say entERPrise but entREPreneur? 94.66.58.46 (talk) 01:07, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See what EO says about these four words:[4][5][6][7] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baseball Bugs (talk • contribs) 01:47, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, concepts like Metathesis (linguistics) seem a bit relevant (especially on the second). --Jayron 32 04:43, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Latin ca- usually became cha- in French. There are other doublets where we have one word from Latin and another from French, eg castle vs chateau, cantor vs chant, capital vs chapter. For the second case, we're talking French for both words (the Latin form gave rise to interpret) but enterprise is from Old French before they settled down to entre-, while entrepreneur is a borrowing from Modern Frence. --ColinFine (talk) 14:26, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

“The French have no word for entrepreneur.” Alansplodge (talk) 15:12, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not since English mugged French for it. —Tamfang (talk) 08:22, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Terminology

1. "When I was asked what I wanted to be when I grew up, and I told them 'a comedian', they laughed at me. Well, they're not laughing now!"

2. Printed sign in the window of a pharmacy: "We dispense with accuracy." Handwritten insertion: "do not" - which was then crossed out.

There is something that connects these two jokes, and I think it ought to have a linguistic term, but I can't put my finger on it. Any ideas? (Bonus points: who originally wrote each of them?) Carbon Caryatid (talk) 20:15, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In a broad sense, they're both examples of puns, in that they rely on certain words being interpreted in more than one way. (I believe 1. is usually attributed to Bob Monkhouse). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 21:32, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of logic, the technical term is performative contradiction. However, in the context of a joke, irony is perhaps a more obvious word to use. Tevildo (talk) 22:01, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The first one sounds like a cousin to a Yogiism. The second one is a play on words somewhat akin to the old "time flies like an arrow... fruit flies like a banana." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:36, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the original sign is an example of amphiboly - the corrections make it ironic (not in the Morissette sense, of course). Tevildo (talk) 07:06, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks all. So I've learned a fancy word for syntactic ambiguity, for which I'm grateful, but it seems to me as if these two examples share something closer. I'm still not sure what, exactly. Perhaps it's to do with the negation? The first plays with what we might call situational negation ("You couldn't possibly choose comedy as a career; what a ridiculous idea"). Any more scholars of joke language care to have a parse? Carbon Caryatid (talk) 18:03, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

November 21

Definition of "larger than"

No dictionary I've seen mentions "larger than" as an idiom. However, this is an interesting phrase to talk about because although it has a meaning consistent with general uses of comparative adjectives:

The dog is larger than the cat.

It is sometimes used when "as large as" is proper, as in:

The dog is 4 times larger than the cat.

In this sentence, "as large as" is the proper phrase to use, but some people use "larger than". Can anyone check Wiktionary to see if its definition of "larger than" is consistent with the latter of these 2 sentences?? Georgia guy (talk) 02:03, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary has larger than life, and this is the page reached in Wiktionary for "larger than". Bus stop (talk) 02:22, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Strictly speaking, "four times larger than" means "five times as large as", just as "one time larger than" would mean "twice as large as" and not the same size as. Unfortunately, people seem to use it to mean "four times as large as" as often as not. Loraof (talk) 03:14, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If I had ever in my life heard someone say "one time larger than", I'd take that as evidence that "n times larger than" does not mean "larger than by a factor of n"; but I haven't. On another hand, the worry that "900% increase" may mean ninefold rather than tenfold is one reason for my hostility to percentages. — Do people still say "as large again"? —Tamfang (talk) 08:27, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

An idiom is a phrase or expression where the meaning is somehow different from that implied by the individual words - which means that "larger than" is not an idiom, and is not going to appear as such in dictionaries. It is just the perfectly normal grammatical use of "than" when making comparisons. "Larger than life" is a good example of an idiom - it doesn't make literal sense (life can't really have a size) but does have a meaning as a well known expression. Wymspen (talk) 09:59, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've always understood the word "life" in "larger than life" to be used in the same sense as in "life sized". That is, it is referring to a representation, such as a painting or sculpture, as being the same size as (or larger than) the actual living thing being represented. Of course both phrases are also used metaphorically as well. CodeTalker (talk) 20:59, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is hyphenated.[8][9] Something can be "larger than life-size". But I think it would be incorrect to say that something is "larger than life size" (without the hyphen). We also have articles about a novel and a television film that use the hyphenated form. Bus stop (talk) 01:23, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing specific to "large" or "larger"; the general construction would be "n times more foo than" or "n times as foo as", for any gradable adjective foo. Both constructions are grammatical. As to whether "n times as foo as" corresponds to "n times more foo than" or "(n-1) times more foo than"; I sympathise with the latter view, but I suspect less mathematically-minded speakers make no such distinction. Somewhat relatedly, Language Log has discussed the problem of interpretation where foo is the binary opposite of a scaled adjective, as in "twice as small as". jnestorius^(talk) 13:23, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What I want to know is ...

What I'm gonna do is ....
What he said was ...
What it is is ...
What she wants is ...
What you are is ...

What's this construction called? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A particular type of predicate nominative? Not sure if there's a very specific term. Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 05:07, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's a cleft sentence (specifically, a pseudo-cleft). Henry ^Flower 07:17, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ah! Pseudo-cleft. Excellent. Thanks, Henry. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:32, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

Putin Quote

"I told him that we would be happy to see him (Obama) in Russia anytime if he wants, can and has desire"[10]

Is this sentence grammatical English? I'm having a hard time parsing it. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 05:14, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not at the end of the sentence. (It's also quite redundant.) The writer probably meant, "I told him ... anytime he wants to visit us." Clarityfiend (talk) 07:55, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Should there be a comma after "meant"? Clarityfiend (talk) 08:06, 21 November 2016 (UTC) [reply]

I'd say there's nothing wrong with using three verbs in such a parallel construction; but it is jarringly unidiomatic, because can is not an ordinary verb (see modal verb) and, more importantly, because a native speaker is unlikely to say if he has desire (which is synonymous with wants anyway). —Tamfang (talk) 08:33, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bad translation. Putin avoids speaking in English in public. The original (at 10:40, attention! annoying beep at the start): Я поблагодарил его за эти годы совместной работы и сказал, что в любое время, если он сочтет возможным и будет необходимость и желание, мы будем рады видеть его в России. The right literal translation: "I thanked him for the years of joint work, and said that at any time, if he considers it possible and will have the need and desire, we will be happy to see him in Russia." The middle part, though, will be more literal with "there be a need and desire".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:12, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

double bar

Why can't i find the double bar of "ð̳" in the IPA chart (Voiced_alveolar_affricate#Voiced_alveolar_non-sibilant_affricate)?68.150.86.232 (talk) 09:53, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a part of the standard IPA. See here.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:33, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Choice of contractions

There's a relatively small group of sentence constructions where more than one contraction is possible. Consider the following sentence and its possible contractions:

1) I have not been to the store.

a) I haven't been to the store.

b) I've not been to the store.

There are subtle shadings to the meanings, but they're largely equivalent sentences. Here's another:

2) You are not kidding!

a) You aren't kidding!

b) You're not kidding!

Again, basically equivalent; any shadings to the meaning could easily be overcome with word stress spoken aloud. My question is: what drives those choices? In the first one, the (a) line feels more North American and the (b) one sounds more British, but I'm hardly the expert. Contractions are often frowned upon in formal writing, but are there nevertheless different schools of thought being represented here? For example, are kids in X told to contract the negative word ("not") more often than the noun (or pronoun as here)? Matt Deres (talk) 21:21, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

How about when "would you not have" contracts down to something that sounds like "woodenchuv" (wouldn't you've). Schyler (exquirere bonum ipsum) 23:21, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The difference is regional in the UK: b) forms are typical of Scotland and the north of England. [11] Henry ^Flower 05:53, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

November 22

Solder / Sodder

Watching an episode of “How It’s Made” on the Discovery Channel the other day, they were describing the process of soldering two metal parts. However, the American voice-over seemed to pronounce the word as “soddering” (to my British ear, this should be pronounced as spelled – “Sold-er-ing”). Was this a mishearing on my part, or is this another example of US/UK English difference? If I didn’t mishear, is this a recent divergence between US/UK English, or has it always been so? CoeurDeHamster (talk) 08:02, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is a divergence between US and UK English. In this case, I'm pretty sure the American usage is the older one and the British is a spelling pronunciation. In the 18th century, lexicographers liked to insert letters into spellings to indicate their etymology - "dette" became "debt" because it derived from Latin debitum, "saumon" became "salmon" because it derived from Latin salmo, and "souder" became "solder" because it derived from Latin solidare. Over time, Brits saw the "l" written in "solder" and started pronouncing it, while Americans stuck to the older pronunciation. --Nicknack009 (talk) 08:24, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Etymological Dictionary supports that - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=solder Wymspen (talk) 12:44, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your quick response - very helpful. CoeurDeHamster (talk) 08:33, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Has political correctness gone over the top?

Question from banned user

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Re this comment:

The last of these two discussions was archived this morning. Today, in a book I am reading by a Jewish woman writer on the Holocaust, I came across a mention of a man who was murdered because "he married a Jewess". In the age of textspeak I would not have thought it necessary to make a cumbersome circumlocution. On the other matter, also today in a Portuguese language magazine I came across the Portuguese equivalent of the word "to denigrate", which they choose to spell denegrir. Brazil has a large black population, but I doubt if anyone would have qualms about uttering the first person singular, present indicative, denegro. Do any English speakers object to the English equivalent? According to the discussion the word "negro" was acceptable in English in the 1960s. In my office in the 1970s someone used the word and the manager said with annoyance "black, if you don't mind." I don't know if it is still regarded as offensive by some - to me the musical term "negro spirituals" seems innocuous enough. - 62.30.204.247 (talk) 18:15, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The following is a passage from a book I have looked up. The author is Jewish and also female:

Peshke Ejszyszki and her two pretty, talented daughters survived the war, though her husband was not so fortunate. He was killed in 1939 by his Polish comrades, members of the Armia Krajowska, for the crime of having married a Jewess.

What possible offence could this passage cause? What exactly is wrong with feminine endings? Here's another example. A Portuguese language booklet describes a worker thus:

Pedagoga e Professora da Escola de Português da Cathedral Internacional.

I cannot believe that this terminology offends anyone. There seems to be reaction against this sort of thing. Remember the outcry when Birmingham City Council made up the word "Winterval" and directed it be used in place of "Christmas"? This year, banks were castigated for giving notice of closure on the "bank holidays 25 and 28 March" when they really meant that they would be shut on Good Friday and Easter Monday. It will be interesting to see how they word their Christmas closure notices. 80.44.165.48 (talk) 14:36, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Slightly off the OP's topic, but the replacement of "Christmas" by "Winterval" was a right-wing tabloid myth. What actually happened was that the Council invented "Winterval" to designate an extended period that included the winter festivals of several different faiths and ethnicities, including Christmas. Being myself a white, British non-Christian (in fact, a Wiccan) I'm all for the idea. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.174.251 (talk) 16:26, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The company I work for, which is an international company, has long used the term "Winter Holiday" in place of "Christmas" on the company calendar. And although this kind of thing is decried by right-wingers, a "Winter Holiday" was around long before there was a "Christmas". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:33, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is not the place for rants such as this. Do you have a question that can be answered factually? --Viennese Waltz 14:43, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you're seriously interested in this topic as opposed to just wanting to make a point, you may want to read our article on political correctness. --Viennese Waltz 14:44, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the more valid term is racial slur. The notion is that people use language to dehumanize those they are oppressing; the oppressed rightly feel angered when the terms of dehumanization are used to describe them. --Jayron 32 14:53, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And PC goes both directions. Notice how angry some white males will get when they get labeled "angry white males". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:45, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, Bugs, PC does not go in both directions. Jayron's point is that language can be used as a tool of oppression against minority groups, and that what is called "political correctness" is an attempt to avoid such oppression. White males are not a minority group, and the term "angry white males" is not a tool of oppression. --Viennese Waltz 15:52, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree with your theory, aside from the fact that white males are numerically a minority. The problem is that a lot of Americans do think that white males are an oppressed group. In fact, a lot of them just elected a new president who fed that notion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:59, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The loss of the ability to oppress someone else is not "being oppressed" yourself. That white males are not allowed to treat black people with scorn or take away their rights doesn't mean that white males are not being "oppressed". That white males are not allowed to speak crudely of women's sexuality, or rape them at will, or keep them from getting quality jobs doesn't mean that white males are being "oppressed". When you're accustomed to the privilege you gained through the oppression of others, that doesn't mean you are "oppressed" when those people are now free. --Jayron 32 17:28, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. But many of the Trump voters don't see it that way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:50, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My fave example of political correctness run amok is a newspaper photo of Paul Simon, performing with Ladysmith Black Mambazo, in full tribal attire, which identified Paul as "the one wearing glasses", because the newspaper has a policy of not identifying people's ethnicity unless the story is specifically about that. Personally, I'd have just let the reader decide for themselves who Paul Simon is, in the pic, if not allowed to identify him as "the white guy". StuRat (talk) 17:38, 22 November 2016 (UTC) [reply]

Was he wearing his bow tie? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:50, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Swedish loanwords

Would appreciate any online source of Swedish words from other languages. Print sources are appreciated as well.68.150.86.232 (talk) 19:19, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to be a pretty good start for you. --Jayron 32 19:34, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Louis Braille

Hello I want the page for louis braille in urdu too. I hope it is translated as soon as possible Thank You The URL is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Braille