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November 24

Oaths

In older literature (e.g. 19th century) it is common to read that somebody said something "with an oath", presumably because it would have been profane, or offended readers' sensibilities, to include the actual words. But would the implied oath usually have been something like "by God!", or an actual four-letter swear word? Equinox ◑ 05:18, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"...by God" is a swear word, FYI, and among the four-letter words you're probably thinking of, many or most aren't. Nyttend (talk) 12:02, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"...by God" and "Oh my God" and such are Oaths, which often defy the Commandment about taking God's name "in vain". Obscenities are treated like "oaths" but they aren't - they're just vulgarisms, some of which are still considered too offensive for regular television. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:04, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

**unattested term*

Here's a silly example that I've just now made up:

Modern frindle derives from OE kenning friþ dol (i.e. a boring object so trivial that it could not produce conflict), with ME *friddul seemingly representing an intermediate stage before the presumedly intentional introduction of the n by proponents desirous of breaking the peaceful object's "dull" associations.

What's the origin of the use of the asterisk before unattested terms? Nyttend (talk) 12:32, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be discussed here. It's in Italian, but there's a short abstract in English. — Kpalion^(talk) 13:03, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative words/phrases for 'amenities' and 'facilities'

I have searched several thesauri for synonyms for 'amenities' and 'facilities' that do not sound so utilitarian or functional. I usually need to use 'amenities' or 'facilities' when describing the attributes of a hotel or village resort which is usually some combination of a swimming pool, spa, gym, restaurant, café and bar. I am writing in the UK for a British audience.

I realise it might be tricky to offer specific references, but are there better/nicer/prettier nouns any editors have encountered that I could use when referring to the leisure provisions of a hotel or resort?

Thank you. 217.33.150.21 (talk) 15:20, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why call them anything - "The hotel has a pool. spa, etc." Wymspen (talk) 16:22, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

feature, element, luxury, convenience, comfort, service, asset, benefit, resource, extra, appurtenance jnestorius^(talk) 17:50, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Or Hotel "Advanced search" for various websites with checkboxes for pool, spa, gym, etc; do they have an overall label? The few I checked either have "amenities" or no overall label. jnestorius^(talk) 17:57, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

appointment; as in 'Fully appointed'. This is rather common in New Zealand motel usage. Akld guy (talk) 05:57, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Scientific research about foreign language teaching and learning

What are some serious sources for Scientific research about foreign language teaching and learning? I'd like to find research about time that adults need to learn a language, how to reduce a foreign accent, common pitfalls, and so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.43.133.38 (talk) 15:32, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Our article Second-language acquisition may help. Loraof (talk) 16:03, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also Language education. Loraof (talk) 16:05, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

These are useful as a roadmap. But I would like to know too what textbooks and handbooks after stances standard or comprehensive. Also what peer reviewed magazine would be worth taking a look. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.7.33.34 (talk) 18:46, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Both of them (especially the first) have very extensive bibliographies at the bottom. Loraof (talk) 19:31, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tsadi or Tsadik in Yiddish

So, here in Israel, most Israeli's can't tell you whether the 18th letter of the Hebrew Alphabet is called Tsadi or "Tsadik". The Hebrew Alphabet page claims that

The letter is known as "tsadik" in Yiddish, and Hebrew speakers often give it that name as well.

But the Yiddish Wikipedia page is unclear. In the chart at the top, it's called "צדי" (Tsadi), and later on, it's called "צדיק" (Tsadik). Is it true that it's always called "Tsadik" in Yiddish? Tewner (talk) 16:12, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On the Tsadi page here in the English Wikipedia, I've corrected the first part of the line you cite above, to read: "The letter is named "tsadek" in Yiddish..." (new text italicized here for emphasis) with a citation from a reliable source, Uriel Weinreich's bilingual Yiddish/English dictionary. This is the prescriptive reply; the page notes descriptively that in practice, speakers of either Yiddish or Hebrew may refer to the letter's name as tsadik, like the Hebrew word for a pious/saintly man (this definition also from Weinrich). That is, 100% adherence to the prescriptive form is unlikely. -- Deborahjay (talk) 15:53, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of "gestation", as in pregnancy

I looked it up in the OED and found fascinating archaic senses (e.g. to be rowed in a boat, to wear a ring) but, as I expected, only one pronunciation, /dʒɛˈsteɪʃən/. I recently heard a very well educated Englishwoman repeatedly pronounce it with a hard G. (I jest not.) Is this pronunciation attested in any dialect, or only her own idiolect? (I ask not for guesses - I seek evidence.) Carbon Caryatid (talk) 19:42, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not in any dialect I've ever heard here in the north of England. ( I hope she doesn't pronounce "digest" with a hard G, especially when she has guests.) I won't make any guesses, since you don't want them, but I observe from the same dictionary that the only such words pronounced with a hard G are those from German. Dbfirs 21:35, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I went to http://www.onelook.com and looked in Merriam-Webster, Oxford (not the full OED, but whatever version that OED accesses), American Heritage, Collins, and Macmillan. All agreed that the G is soft. ~~However, Collins does show a hard G for the related words "gestational" and "gestatory".~~ I wonder if this might be an error: American Heritage shows both with a short G, and none of the others lists "gestatory" at all. --76.71.5.45 (talk) 23:02, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Which Collins are you looking at? Their on-line dictionary shows only a soft G for both "gestational" and "gestatory". The modern sense of gestatory (/dʒɛˈsteɪtərɪ/) was added to the full OED in 1993, but the obsolete senses also had a soft G. Dbfirs 23:34, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I linked to the same Collins page you did! But I was misled by their confusing notation. Since the pronunciations "(dʒɛˈsteɪʃən)" and "(ˈdʒɛstətɪv)" are enclosed in parentheses, and since "(gesˈtational)" shows pronunciation information (the accent mark) and is in parentheses, I misread the "g" in "(gesˈtational)" as an IPA "ɡ" indicating a hard G, without noticing that the rest of the word is not given in IPA. At least I was right that there was an error, only it was mine. Sorry. --76.71.5.45 (talk) 06:27, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's OK. I thought you perhaps had a paper copy of Collins. I was sure that only "gest" words from German have a hard G. Dbfirs 07:02, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Both the full OED and Chambers 20th Century Dictionary have the g as soft. That said, while I doubt I've ever heard it said with a hard g, it wouldn't surprise me if I did. DuncanHill (talk) 23:14, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary 2nd edition, which often shows uncommon or disparaged pronunciations. It only has soft G for all gestat- words. jnestorius^(talk) 23:29, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of time this happens when one has only ever read a word (such as the bizarre gunwale, forecastle, victuals and Beauchamp) and not heard it pronounced. That happens to me on the rare occasion. Interestingly enough, Pat and Vanna were discussing giblets at the end of Wheel tonight, and Pat said he said jiblets while Vanna admitted she said ghiblets. They agreed it was a dialectal difference. I have never heard her hard-gee pronunciation before. μηδείς (talk) 02:42, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard the name Beauchamp pronounced, so I would have used the French pronunciation if you hadn't warned me. (Thank you!)
A hard G in "giblet" would probably be considered non-standard in the UK, but Merriam-Webster.com gives it as an alternative in America. I wonder which regions use the hard G. Dbfirs 07:28, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Dbfirs: Vanna White has the remains of a Southern accent, and when Pat Sajak suggested the hard gee might be "a Southern thing" she responded that she guessed so. μηδείς (talk) 19:02, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. There are not many people of German background in the Deep South, so my German theory doesn't work for "giblet". (I only intended it to apply to "gest..." words.) Dbfirs 23:03, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A check of the Oxford English Dictionary confirms that it's not Germanic origin which makes the "g" hard - cf. "geld". It probably depends on whether the "g" softened in Latin. In some cases it's a matter of choice - would you know whether "Egerton" is pronounced with a hard or soft "g"? Examples are "gib", "gibber" and "gimbal". On "gibbous" the dictionary notes

The gutteral (g) in this and the related words is contrary to the ordinary rule for the pronunciation of Latin derivatives, but there is no evidence that (dz) was ever used.

I was surprised to learn that "giblets" has soft "g". "Gill" has various derivations and meanings and the pronunciation is linked to the meaning. On "gip", the dictionary says the pronunciation is hard and other dictionaries are wrong. 86.169.56.237 (talk) 11:54, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's only the verb "gip" that has a hard G, and the OED makes that claim for the Whitby dialect. The noun has a soft G in the OED. (I've clarified my previously ambiguous comment above. I was referring only to "gest..." words when I mentioned Germanic origin.) Dbfirs 00:33, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I watched Kim Novak in Bell, Book and Candle the other night, and her character's name is Gillian Holroyd, pronounced with a hard gee, which surprised me, since I have only ever heard "Jillian". Camille Paglia and I highly recommend that movie. μηδείς (talk) 18:43, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've heard the hard-G Gillian a few times. I once had a boss named soft-G Gillian, and nothing could ever get under her skin more than being addressed as hard-G Gillian. She seemed to get called this on a regular basis, so the hard-G version must have a foothold in the popular psyche.

I have a friend who's been married twice, both times to soft-G Gillians; and one of his children from his first marriage is a soft-G Gillain, just for a bit of variety. I'm going to Gillain's wedding in January, where I expect to meet first wife Gillian, as well as continue my association with second wife Gillian. How confusing! -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:50, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So the daughter's name is said Jillane? I had a boss named Julane, pronounced Jillane with the high mid schwi. μηδείς (talk) 04:36, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, like Jillane. Except, she gets called Jilly. As do both his wives. I can usually work out to whom he's referring ... -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:19, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See also Gillian Welch, "pronounced with a hard g". Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:36, 29 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't she confuse it with gustation? Both could potentially be pronounced with a schwa in the first syllable. Although it's weird, but people have been always confusing dozens of words (there's a term for such words: paronyms).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:34, 29 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone ever confuses gustation with gestation, I would not want to meet her children nor eat a dinner prepared by her. - Nunh-huh 10:29, 29 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Eating ~~people~~ new-born babies is wrong", but if you do it, at least do it with "great gesto". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:10, 29 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

November 25

Where did the idiom "cold turkey" come from?

Where did the idiom "cold turkey" come from? As in "to quit cold turkey". 107.77.207.96 (talk) 04:41, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

EO has a theory:[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:30, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As Snopes.com says here, that explanation doesn't make a lot of sense; a better idea is that it comes from "talk turkey" combined with "cold". Merriam-Webster's page here also supports that explanation. --76.71.5.45 (talk) 06:40, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Turkey" itself has meanings as applied to humans. A turkey is "a person or thing of little appeal; dud; loser" or "a naive, stupid, or inept person."[2] Due to the withdrawal symptoms a person is likely to feel the compound implications of being a "loser" and being "cold". Our article notes these "pleasant" effects: "Withdrawal symptoms from opiate abuse (such as heroin/morphine) include anxiety, sweating, vomiting, and diarrhea." Bus stop (talk) 06:43, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I can't say if Snopes has it right or not, but it's older than they're saying. I subscribe to a pay site called newspapers.com. I looked for the expression "quit cold turkey". The first item that turned up with that exact phrase was in the Cincinnati Enquirer for April 20, 1898. There's a story about a boxing match in which one of the contestants gave up after four rounds. The headline says the boxer, La Manche, "Caught a Tartar and Quit Cold Turkey." The term "catch a Tartar" means to "get hold of what cannot be controlled."[3] The article says La Manche "could not do what he pleased" with his opponent, and quit after the fourth round of a scheduled 15. It's clear enough that the expression "quit cold turkey" was already well-known by 1898. Another example is in the Pittsburgh Press for May 29, 1900. The Pirates defeated the N.Y. Giants 14-0, and the report said the Giants were so discouraged that "they quit cold turkey before half the innings had been played." Most or all of the early references appear in reports of boxing matches and ball games. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:03, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The explanation I read several decades ago is that during withdrawal from heroin a sufferer exhibits horripilation (mentioned as "goose bumps" in Opioid use disorder) which resembles a plucked turkey's skin – presumably when the term arose geese were no longer a common food item. I don't assert that this is correct, but mention it as nobody else has so far. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.30.195} 176.248.159.54 (talk) 11:24, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That theory is mentioned, and refuted, in the Snopes item linked earlier. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:59, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My bad: I actually looked at that link, but skimmed over the initial text. However, while not disputing the expression's demonstrated use prior to its recorded application to drug withdrawal, it's possible that the additional coincidence of the goose-bump symptom popularised its use in that regard. A more remote possibility is that it did originate orally as such a reference, but was not initially recorded in print due to the disreputable context. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 176.248.159.54 (talk) 06:52, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

increase of "about who"

I'm interested in recent changes in Standard English.

Google Ngram Viewer shows that the use of "about who" has increased rapidly (about 20 fold) since 1960. This increase is not paralleled by a similar increase for any other prepositions I looked at (for example, "for who"). As I looked at some of the new examples of "about who" that Ngram Viewer shows me, I don't notice anything especially "new" about them.

Does anyone have any idea of how English may have changed? Thank you. More brownies plz (talk) 07:06, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can you give a sentence containing that expression? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:10, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I look in Ngram Viewer, I see for example "Now we want to spend some time using those same methods to see what we can discover about who Jesus is." There's nothing obviously (to me) unusual here. We could change "discover" to "search" and "about" to "for", and the result would still be OK. For other examples, such a change (one preposition to another) is not so easy. But what I can't even start to guess at is, why/how the twentyfold increase? (By the way, I really appreciate your fast response, but I have to rush off to work now. Back in a few hours!) More brownies plz (talk) 07:17, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not offering a real answer so far, just saying that your example sentence is not really a canonical example of "about" governing "who"; this is the preposition "about" governing the entire clause "who Jesus is", in which "who" just happens to be the subject/question pronoun. I take it that what you're really interested in would be sentences with "about" governing "who" directly, as in "About who did they think that she is pregnant?" – Oh, and you seem not to have specified what other phrase you were actually comparing it with on Ngrams; was it "about whom"? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:31, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"About who did they think..." would be bizarre; if you don't care about using "whom", you won't care about avoiding putting prepositions at the ends of sentences. Nyttend (talk) 12:49, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ngram "about who,about whom,about which,about why,about whether" has similar increases for "who", "why", and "whether", but not so much for "whom" or "which". The complement of "about" is a nominal. Both wh-clauses and relative pronouns are types of nominals. Maybe wh-clauses have become more common as complements of "about". Maybe "about" is doing work that was previously done by other words; or maybe "about <wh-clause>" is doing work that was previously done by other constructions. jnestorius^(talk) 15:33, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate all your responses. What Fut.Perf. pointed is right, my interest was the preposition "about" governing just "who" instead of the entire clause following after that. I was comparing "about who" and "about whom" with other prepositions (e.g. for, to, from, on, against and etc...), and found out that "about" is the only case where "who" reaches higher than "whom", unlike any other prepositions. And If jnestorius's idea that both the complement of "about" and wh-clauses are nominal therefore "about" and those "wh-clauses" are put together was right, is this the direct reason for the twentyfold increase of "about who"? More brownies plz (talk) 21:31, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Neil Nunes on the shipping forecast

Neil Nunes is a Radio 4 continuity announcer who has a very distinctive way of talking (example at 02:40). On the shipping forecast, when reading the numbers on the Beaufort scale, he can be distinctly heard to say, "four arrr five" instead of "four or five" (this link might work (01:03)). In contrast he certainly says "three or four". He seems to be the only person who does this. Is it a deliberate enunciation, and is there anyone else who does this? 91.250.5.253 (talk) 11:28, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

John Prescott#Life after government. 86.169.56.237 (talk) 11:41, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Shipping Forecast doesn't say anything about pronunciation per se, but this Telegraph article bangs on about enunciation and clarity. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 21:10, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Four arrr five" seems to me to be merely a feature of Nunes' Jamaican accent, which to my observation has become significantly less marked over the last year or two: when he first appeared on the airwaves I sometimes had momentary difficulties understanding him. Perhaps his occasionally more RP "ors" are a symptom of conscious or unconscious efforts to moderate his accent. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 176.248.159.54 (talk) 07:04, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What I hear sounds like a side effect of linking r - he pronounces it as "four-roar-five" (like most British English speakers would), which lets him say the phrase quicker. Because he speaks faster, he reduces the vowel in "or" to something like a schwa. By contrast, "three or four" contains a brief stop between "three" and "or", which means he pronounces the "o" sound more fully. Smurrayinchester 11:00, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Me cyan b'leeve dat 'eavy weather ova Nunes, maan. Am jus lovin dem four arrrr fiveFaeroes. Ire. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:07, 28 November 2016 (UTC) [reply]

building back into cloud

WP:OR, not a question

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Heard here and seen here in text form, the Microsoft Cloud advertisement says "And we’re building what we learn back into the cloud, to make people and organizations safer." The word "back" should be omitted, because what they are building into the cloud never existed before. Bus stop (talk) 15:08, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the text version, the previous paragraph says that they learned something from the cloud; then this paragraph says they are building it back into the cloud. "back" is relevant since the process started in the cloud. Loraof (talk) 00:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you are referring to the sentence reading: "The Digital Crimes Unit uses Microsoft cloud technology and data analytics to detect and assess threats so law enforcement agencies can stop them."

Yes, that is a valid point which I had not considered. Thanks. Bus stop (talk) 14:19, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

November 26

Reasons for nonlinear narrative

Nonlinear narrative is, according to the article, "often used to mimic the structure and recall of human memory, but has been applied for other reasons as well."

What are the other reasons? --Llaanngg (talk) 19:11, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's difficult to find the answer to your question in the article, so I'm going to suggest on the article's talk page that this be explicitly addressed. From what I can gather from the article, though, two other possibilities are: (1) The main storyline is in the present, but at appropriate points it is useful to have a flashback to explain how some aspect of the present came about. (2) The main storyline is in the past, but in order to show why it is important, some dramatic present event that causally follows from the past is shown first. Loraof (talk) 01:23, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, from the lead of flashback (narrative): Both flashback and flashforward are used to cohere a story, develop a character, or add structure to the narrative. Loraof (talk) 01:30, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Famously: Many years later, as he faced the firing squad, Colonel Aureliano Buendía was to remember that distant afternoon when his father took him to discover ice... --Shirt58 (talk) 02:16, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In Use of Weapons, chapters alternate between a linear narrative moving forward and past episodes moving backward, getting closer to the event that traumatized the protagonist. —Tamfang (talk) 00:55, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

French

Can someone help me translated this? I've used Google Translate but it is still not clear.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:06, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Né en 1846 à Mangareva, Mama Taira Putairi avait donc 23 ans. On l’appelait aux Gambier, Tiripone. Il est le fils de Bernard Putairi, togo’iti, qui devint plus tard régent de l’Archipel. Un rejeton de la branche cadette des rois de Gambier. Une familled échue ; mais qui se faisiat remarquer par une grande doucuer. Tryphon sera un des trois garçons sortis du « petit séminaire » des Gambier. Il avait fait ses études au collège d’Anaotiki, à l’île Aukena, avce M. de La Tout et en partir à tahiti où en 1869 le Père Nicolas, l’envoya pour poursuivre des études cléricales. Il sera tonsuré le 21 septembre 1869, et rentre aux Gambier où le père Laval le reçoit à sa table. Il sera ordonné prêtre à Papeete, par Mgr Jaussen, le 24 décembre 1873. Il résidera dès lors à tahiti, nonloin du père Laval qui y vivait retiré, prêtre catéchiste à Faaone bien que sans les pouvoirs de confesser. Il s’en ira mourir d’une pneumonie à Valparaiso, le 27 décembre 1881. Une lettre manuscrite de lui, en langue de Mangareva, datée de 1881 : Arch. Picpus, 64,9 F. – En collaboration avce Laval achevant ses jours à Tahiti, Tiripone écrivit en mangarévien un travail : E atoga Magareva mei te ao eteni roa. Histoire des temps païens à Mangareva. Un manuscrit en est conservé aux Arch. Picpus, 70,9. Ce texte semble être une copie, de la main du P. Vincent-Ferrier Janeau. Des copies abérgées ont circulé aux Gambier où Buck les a retrouvées lors de son séjour dans l’île en 1924.

I suggest these spelling corrections: faisiat —> faisait; doucuer —> douceur; avce —> avec (two instances); abérgées —> abrégées.

—Wavelength (talk) 22:15, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Source [4].--KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:25, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The French has lots of spelling errors (presumably someone typed it out incorrectly), but it says: "Born in 1846 in Mangareva, Mama Taira Putairi was therefore 23 years old. In Gambier, he was called Tiripone. He was the son of Bernard Putairi, togo’iti, who later became regent of the Archipelago. A scion of the cadet branch of the kings of Gambier. A fallen family; but one that was noted for its great softness. Tryphon was one of the three boys who came out of the "little seminary" in Gambier. He studied at the college in Anaotiki, on the island of Aukena, with Mr. de La Tout and left there for Tahiti where in 1869 Father Nicholas sent him to pursue clerical studies. He was tonsured on September 21, 1869, and returned to Gambier where Father Laval received him at his table. He was ordained as a priest in Papeete by Mgr. Jaussen on December 24, 1873. After that time, he resided in Tahiti, not far from Father Laval who lived there as a retiree, catechist priest in Faaone although without the powers of a confessor. He died of pneumonia in Valparaiso on December 27, 1881. A manuscript letter by him, in the language of Mangareva, dated 1881:Arch. Picpus, 64,9 F. – In collaboration with Laval, ending his days in Tahiti, Tiripone wrote a work in Mangarevan: E atoga Magareva mei te ao eteni roa. Histoire des temps païens à Mangareva. A manuscript is preserved in Arch. Picpus, 70,9. This text seems to be a copy, in the hand of P. Vincent-Ferrier Janeau. Abbreviated copies circulated in Gambier where Buck found them during his stay on the island in 1924." Adam Bishop (talk) 23:11, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Can someone also explain what "L'année suivante, le régent Arone, qui avait signé l'acte d'adhésion au protectorat, fut obligé de donner sa démission sous prétexte qu'il avait embrassé une femme dans la rue, et remplacé" means? So Arone had to resign because he kissed someone publicly on the street? --KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:54, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That was the prétexte for resignation. Thincat (talk) 11:36, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The verb "embrasser" has a wide range of meanings - kiss, embrace, hug, cuddle. As we are talking about the 19th century, it may well also have been used euphemistically for something a lot more sexual. Wymspen (talk) 12:14, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A wide range of meanings, yes, but it's hard to imagine actual fornication dans la rue ("in the road"). Perhaps it might refer to what we would call sexual harassment? Carbon Caryatid (talk) 16:19, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Beatles had no such problem:

Why don't we do it in the road?

No one will be watching us.

Why don't we do it in the road?

μηδείς (talk) 00:51, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Autres temps, autres mœurs. —Tamfang (talk) 05:39, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Other times, other manners." Well, Wymspen said it was hard to imagine. Maybe that song will help with the imagination. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:17, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Other times, other customs." may be a more appropriate translation. Akld guy (talk) 02:37, 29 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just make sure it's on The Road Not Taken by others. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:31, 29 November 2016 (UTC) [reply]

November 27

Name for a production/marketing concept ?

Electrical resistors may be mass produced, aiming for a certain ohm value, but with low-cost production methods that don't guarantee a close match to the target. The resistors produced are then tested, and the best matches are sold, at a higher price, as X ohms ±5%, the next best as ±10%, and the worst as ±20% (any worse than that may be discarded). So, is there a general term for this strategy, and are there other examples ? That is, where if the item you produce isn't quite what you wanted, you still sell it, as something else. StuRat (talk) 18:54, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't a reference, StuRat, but I believe that 3.5" floppies were manufactured on the same principle: those that met the higher standard were packaged and sold as double density, those that didn't were single density. --ColinFine (talk) 00:23, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Good example. Did they have a name for this practice ? StuRat (talk) 17:00, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That was true for some resistors, notably from the USSR. (If it's off by 20%, then it may be within 10% of another marketable value.) This also meant that If you purchased a "10%" resistor, it was certain to be off by at least 5%, so the "10%" resistors did not show the expected normal distribution, but instead had a bimodal distribution, so you could not hand-select a precise resistor from a lot of less-precise resistors. But on to your question: a whole lot of products are sold by grade: eggs, cotton, most vegetables sold to cannerys, cuts of meat, etc. I think the term "grade" may be what you are looking for. -Arch dude (talk) 01:19, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite the same, as with produce, it just isn't possible to get the plants and animals to produce the same size and quality every time. With electronics it is, but this is expensive, hence this alternate strategy. StuRat (talk) 17:03, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For ICs, binning is the general term. Nil Einne (talk) 12:47, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, is this term used outside the IC industry ? StuRat (talk) 17:02, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's used for LEDs. These results suggest it's also used for resistors [5] [6] [7]. Although the last link suggests binning may not happen with resistors anymore possibly because manufacturing technology is advanced enough and production costs low enough it isn't worth it. Anyway it may be accurate to say it's used for most or all electronic components. I've never heard and somehow doubt it's used for food or manufactured items that are far from electronics, but I don't know for sure. Nil Einne (talk) 21:37, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

November 28

Is there a generic reciprocal of "client" in English?

Like the pairs "father - son", "left - right", "good - evil", "doctor - patient", is there a word that is the reciprocal of "client". If I am your client, you are my <something>, that is not a designation of any specific occupation such as "lawyer", "accountant", "plumber", etc. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:36, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In computer science, the word "server" is used as a reciprocal of "client". In the case of human relationships, however, I'm not sure there is a single word. Maybe fiduciary, but that's not a common word and has a narrow legal definition. --Jayron 32 12:48, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A term like "service provider" can be understood in general terms. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:50, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think "service provider" is as close as we're going to get. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:05, 29 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In some contexts, it may be a patron. In others, the patron is the client. — Kpalion^(talk) 15:12, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A bartender may find fewer patrons patronize his bar if he serves Patrón with a patronizing attitude ("Sure you can handle that, li'l fella ?".) StuRat (talk) 17:15, 29 November 2016 (UTC) [reply]

Vendor can also be used as a generic antonym of client in some contexts. 130.188.198.39 (talk) 13:03, 29 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

From the origin, "patron" works.[8] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:26, 29 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Contractor often would be appropriate. Blythwood (talk) 17:48, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sources for online linguistics courses, with videos

What are some good linguistics courses which have lecture videos available online? I just could find a few open MIT (without videos) and even fewer through Coursera. Most courses I find online are teaching a language, or related to linguistics, but not a part of it (for example, NLP, statistics, programming). --Llaanngg (talk) 17:48, 28 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

November 30

Occurance [sic]

This misspelling of 'occurrence' is becoming very widespread, and it leads me to wonder how people who write 'occurance' think it's pronounced.

Do they actually say 'ə-kyoo-rəns'? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:08, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's any kind of tortured phonetic reading. In fact, I assume that people who make the misspelling are simply not aware of the phonetic meaning of doubled consonants. For them, it's just the logical "occur" + "-ance". To put it another way - there are lots of people who misspell "starring" as "staring", but that doesn't mean they pronounce it that way. Smurrayinchester 09:15, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the issue with the vowel reduction and schwa in English; when phonetically spelling a word that has a schwa, (as occurs in the last syllable of occurrence), there's not a lot of rhyme or reason to which vowel is chosen; indeed the spelling comes from a type in historical English before the vowel reduction occurred, so wheras the spelling used to make more sense, today it has become somewhat divorced from the phonetic pronunciation of the word. This is especially problematic in words like Wednesday and colonel and Mrs. and gunwale, but also shows up in many words with schwa vowels. For occurrence, consider interference from other /əns/ ending words like "avoidance" or "acceptance" or "fragrance" etc. Following regular patterns of both pronunciation and word formation, "occurance" fits a logical pattern. That it's not spelled that way is a quirk of history, and one of the many many many ways that written English is just weird. --Jayron 32 12:04, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think you meant the third syllable. --76.71.5.45 (talk) 12:55, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So corrected. --Jayron 32 13:44, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That leads to my next question. Has anyone ever compiled a truly complete catalogue of (a) the rules of English spelling and (b) all of the multitude of exceptions to said rules? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 12:48, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

JackofOz, it's called a dictionary. --ColinFine (talk) 13:00, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has an article titled English orthography which gives an overview and a place to start your research. --Jayron 32 14:20, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@JackofOz: There have been a lot of comprehensive and thorough researches. From the bibliography provided I would recommend you to pay much attention to the works of Bell (she has a blog), Carney, Cummings, Hanna, Venezky, as well as of David Crystal, Christopher Upward, and Greg Brooks (Dictionary of the British English Spelling System). Those are very good works, especially the latter, which can be read free (under CC BY) on Google Books.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 16:29, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Tovarisch Lüboslóv. I've had a look at Brooks' book, which seems very comprehensive, but I'd have to acquire a hard copy version. It's not quite what I was after, but it's the closest thing so far. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:39, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

English nouns ending in -ance and -ence are related to Latin present participles of verbs of the first conjugation and of other conjugations respectively. (A relatively small number of words are derived from French, where all present participles end in -ant[e][s], and the corresponding nouns end in -ance[s]. Examples include assurance and poignance. Another relatively small number of words are formed directly from English verbs. Examples include clearance and utterance.) Likewise, English adjectives ending in -able and -ible are related to Latin verbs of the first conjugation and of other conjugations respectively. (A relatively small number of words are formed directly from English verbs, and have the ending -able. Examples include doable and movable.) For additional information, see wikt:-ance#Etymology and wikt:-ence#Etymology and wikt:-able#Etymology and wikt:-ible#Etymology.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:01, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a related ref-desk thread that Jack started some years ago. Deor (talk) 19:43, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to the noted irregular formation dependant from the Latin verb dependere the same is seen with "ascendant" from ascendere and "descendant" from descendere. I suspect that the French present participle, which apparently always ends in -ant, may have something to do with this. 81.134.89.140 (talk) 01:08, 1 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese comets

Can someone give me the Chinese characters for po-hsing and hui-hsing, which are ancient Chinese names for comets? SpinningSpark 15:23, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, is this Mandarin, or something else? SpinningSpark 15:27, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If they're "ancient" Chinese, they're likely to be Classical Chinese: the modern topolect called Mandarin on which Standard Chinese is based is a more recent development. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 176.248.159.54 (talk) 16:50, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hui-hsing would be wikt:彗星 (Mandarin, huìxīng, "broomstick star"). There is another word for comet that I know, wikt:掃把星 (Mandarin, sàobǎ xīng, "broom star"). I'm not sure about po-hsing. Maybe 破星 (Mandarin, pò-xīng, "broken star")? —Stephen (talk) 20:43, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Stephen G. Brown: The translations I have for the two terms are "bushy star" and "broom star" respectively. The source is this article from New Scientist. SpinningSpark 20:55, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think "bushy star" refers to 星孛 (xīng bó, "fuzzy star", literally, "star become fuzzied"). Other terms are: 長星 (zhǎng xīng, "long star"), 客星 (kè xīng, "guest star"), and 掃帚星 (sàozhǒu xīng, "broom star"). —Stephen (talk) 21:47, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Fuzzy star" or "bushy star" can't be 孛星? That fits the pattern of the others with the "star" element at the end. SpinningSpark 22:19, 30 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]