Talk:Charlie Zeleny

Tasks

I added links, fixed spelling, grammar, and orientation of the materials given. Linked to more sources, pulled more facts off the pages, and overall fleshed the article out more. Added a musician box but have left picture out because I am uncertain of the copyright laws. Also starting to go around to other pages mentioning Charlie and linking back to this article. Is there anything else to be done?

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because Charlie Zeleny is an important member of the American session musician community and is a drummer who plays with major bands and artists including Blotted Science, Behold the Arctopus, Jordan Rudess, Terry Bozzio, Joe Lynn Turner, Steve Augeri, The Great Kat, Gala, Thalia, Outasight among many others. This article is not vandalism, SPAM, or an attack page against Charlie Zeleny or anyone.

Furthermore, this article has been on Wikipedia successfully for 5 years and are current changes are updates to the Biography of Charlie Zeleny including new and updated musical projects. All References are being added over the next couple of days. Please do not delete this article during this update process.

Charlie Zeleny has played on over 135 records, many by major bands and artist on major labels. He is also well renowned specifically for his Drumageddon series of YouTube videos garnering over 1 million views and thousands of subscribers. He's been featured and interviewed in hundreds of publications, received front page newspaper and magazine coverage and been featured on the front page online magazine articles, blogs and interviews. Also, Charlie Z is mentioned in 4 music history books as being significant here with references added here:

Hard Cover Books: Mean Deviation: Four Decades of Progressive Heavy Metal by Jeff Wagner[17], The 100 Greatest Metal Guitarists Book by Joel McIver[18], New Wave of American Heavy Metal by Gary Sharpe-Young[19] and Encyclopedia of Bohemian and Czech-American Biography, Volume 1 by Miloslav Rechcigl Jr[20].

Please let me know if there are any additional edits that need to be made to this article to save it from the Speedy Deletion process. Thank you very much.

--100.35.194.25 (talk) 22:19, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Still Sourcing + Formatting Current Document, Please Refrain From Removing Links For A Couple Days

Please do not delete or alter un-sourced info or change formatting yet on this page. Everything is being sourced and formatted to work better for the Wikipedia community. Thank you very much.

There is way too much unsourced intricate detail in the article. Please feel free to add back sourced and referenced info. The article still needs a great deal of trimming and removal of over linking. Naming every station or newspaper that ever mentioned the subject imparts no knowledge about him. Add referenced statements and info, thanks. There are no couple of days. Unsourced info can be removed at anytime. Pauciloquence (talk) 11:04, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Hey Pauciloquence: Charlie Zeleny Page: Still Sourcing + Formatting Current Document, Please Refrain From Removing Links For A Couple Days

Please do not delete or alter un-sourced info or change formatting yet on this page. Everything is being formatted and sourced over the next couple of days. Thank you very much.

There is way too much unsourced intricate detail in the article. Please feel free to add back sourced and referenced info. The article still needs a great deal of trimming and removal of over linking. Naming every station or newspaper that ever mentioned the subject imparts no knowledge about him. Add referenced statements and info, thanks. Please discuss further on article talk page. Pauciloquence (talk) 10:58, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. Spent a good deal of time working on the format to clean up the article first and foremost and was adding in the sources currently when you removed much of the article. Would be great if you can hold off on editing things for a bit. If you can't, will have to add back individually very slowly which will be extra time consuming.

There is information in this article that has been on the Wikipedia site for 5 years that you removed that appears to be pertinent for a prominent drummer, specifically his gear drumset breakdown. Check here for a drummer that is referenced in the Charlie Zeleny article for a Gear breakdown example sourced similarly as was on the site before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Roddy

Unsourced info can be removed at any time. Please see talk page for article. Please sign your post with four of these ~ You have plenty of time to add sourced and referenced info to the article. Just because a lot of unsorced info was on there for five years is no excuse. Like I said unsourced info can be removed at anytime. Maybe you might want to work on your updated version in your sandbox or something. best regards. Pauciloquence (talk) 11:17, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Just recently started using the preview sandbox situation which is why the updates were now coming much more slowly but more completely over here. Will have to go through and manually update everything individually then. Understood about sourcing and will do so thoroughly for all noteworthy biographical information on the subject.

In the meantime, can you point me to any drummer pages that you feel are more along the lines of what this should look like overall?

Here are similar drummers that Charlie Zeleny has been associated with throughout his projects:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Bozzio
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Jarzombek
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Roddy
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Adler
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Minnemann
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Portnoy

The Gear section looks like it was the listed the same as the other drummers' pages and should be added back in as it was. Furthermore, the photo directly next to the Gear section shows the Gear that was listed. This specific picture actually shows up on Page 1 of a Google Search for the term "drumset" underneath Terry Bozzio's drumset. Please let me know. Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 11:31, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Usage of unreliable sources in article

I have removed a reference to linkedin as unreliable. References to facebook, social sites and youtube are also considered unreliable and should not be used within the article. Pauciloquence (talk) 10:16, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Understood on LinkedIn as unreliable or other social sites. Will find better sources for those particular links. But I must respectfully disagree on YouTube not being a valid source since that is the actual Video material in the Discography section. If you check all the current new sources on the Videos in the References, the references linked are the actual videos of the subject performing with the selected artists. It is clearly stated that YouTube is a valid source in the Wikipedia guidelines. Please do not remove or edits these links. Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 10:24, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Please see this excerpt from the reliable sources noticeboard:

"YouTube as a source

I have been the primary editor of Justine Ezarik for some time and have consistently tried to eliminate use of YouTube as a source. This includes, citing its pageview statistics as a source for popularity. I have recently been involved in a pair of popular viral videos (Kony 2012 and Cat Daddy) and am now wondering if it is Kosher to cite YouTube for number of pageviews and upload date.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:01, 6 May 2012 (UTC) Nope. It is a "primary source" for what you seem to wish to use it - and the only value of the stats is in the area of what WP fondly calls "original research." If and only if a reliable third party source publishes the data does Wikipedia like to see it used. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2012 (UTC) Collect (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2012 (UTC)"

located here:[1] Pauciloquence (talk) 11:38, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

From the same article link you provided:

Yes and no. YouTube is fine to cite for number of page views and upload date. Primary sources can be used to make straightforward statements of facts that any educated person will be able to verify. So, yes, it's perfectly fine to cite YouTube for the number of times a video is watched or when it was uploaded. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:11, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

The issue here is verifiability, whether a reader can go to the appropriate YouTube page and verify that the video was uploaded on a particular day and has X number of views without performing any interpretation or analysis. The answer to that question is yes. Not technically, yes, but absolutely yes. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:57, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Youtube is an acceptable source. Drawing any conclusion from those numbers is not ok. -- Despayre tête-à-tête 01:13, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

11:38, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

YouTube is an acceptable source for referencing facts and the subject's releases. Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 12:43, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

We do not agree. Please cite where the guidelines state that youtube is a reliable source. Pauciloquence (talk) 12:48, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

The information provided is found directly underneath the comment you provided here:

[2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 13:12, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Targeted Negative Campaign - Charlie Zeleny Wikipedia Page

This is starting to appear to be a targeted negative campaign against the subject's site with the amount of massive editing you have personally done on this particular page (almost -12,000 words in 2 days). This is very peculiar especially since you have only 2 days worth of editing history with the majority of deletions happening on the Charlie Zeleny page when all other pages in your history are very minor edits (even when these pages have the same problems you claim the Charlie Zeleny page has).

The current page of Charlie Zeleny has 41 References so far and there will be the addition of many more to support any and all claims found in the subject's article. These 41 references are already almost 4x as many as other major drummer figures on Wikipedia including one that Charlie Zeleny has taken over for named Chris Adler from Lamb of God when Charlie joined Blotted Science (Chris Adler has only 11 sources on a page that has no problems whatsoever). The fact that the Charlie Zeleny page is experiencing this much difficulty with this amount of sources and references makes no sense whatsoever when there are many other major drummer figure sites that are very similar in format, style and overall information (including the deleted Gear section and other biographical information). Here are drummer pages that all have less sources currently than the Charlie Zeleny page of drummers who are associated with the subject on his projects (there are many more to list if needed):

Terry_Bozzio, Bobby_Jarzombek, Derek_Roddy, Chris_Adler, Marco_Minnemann, Mike_Portnoy

Here are other drummer pages with less sources than the current Charlie Zeleny page and similar sources that are being disputed. These pages are existing without any problems whatsoever (and are a short list of drummers starting with the last name starting with A to use as an example):

Dave_Abbruzzese, Alex Acuña, Tommy_Aldridge, Rick_Allen_(drummer), Carmine_Appice, Vinny_Appice, Kenny_Aronoff, Nick_Augusto

The amount of negative edits and difficulty in being able to adequately update this page for the Wikipedia community due to the Pauciloquence negative targeted editing campaign is extremely concerning and needs to stop.

Pauciloquence, please refrain from editing this page moving forward otherwise formal action will have to be taken. Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 13:36, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

I will be continuing to edit this and other pages. Just because you do not like that I am enforcing the policies and guidelines of wikipedia does not me you can tell me to stop editing an article. By all rights I should ask you if you have a conflict of interest with the article subject since you seem to be for leaving in huge sections of unsourced information.

Saying other articles have this or that is no excuse. Each article stands on its own and must follow policy and guidelines. On a BLP article unsourced info maybe removed at anytime. Unreliable sources may also be removed. Best regards! Pauciloquence (talk) 13:43, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Disruptive editing

• From the Wikipedia Disruptive Editing Page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing

	This page in a nutshell: Disruptive editors may be blocked or banned indefinitely.

Disruptive editing is not always intentional. Editors may be accidentally disruptive because they don't understand how to correctly edit, or because they lack the social skills or competence necessary to work collaboratively. The fact that the disruption occurs in good faith does not change the fact that it is harmful to Wikipedia.

• From the Wikipedia Competence Is Required Page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Competence_is_required

Where we often see big controversies, though, is with editors who are unintentionally and often unknowingly disruptive while trying to help. This is where we sometimes see an unintended side effect of our (generally quite useful) notion of assuming good faith. Many editors have focused so much on this tenet that they have come to believe that good faith is all that is required to be a useful contributor. Sadly, this is not the case at all. Competence is required as well. A mess created in a sincere effort to help is still a mess.

• From the Wikipedia Compared To Good Faith Page

Compared to Good Faith

Assuming that people are trying to help seems trivial—but if someone is unable to help or is sometimes helpful but at other times disruptive, their edits may cause a net loss to the project. The proverbial bull in a china shop might have good intentions, but he's clearly bad for business. We always must value the project as a whole more than we value the contributions of any individual editor.

If an editor has already demonstrated incompetence that causes disruption, no amount of good faith can fix the problem resulting from the editor's lack of competence.

Some common types

Newbie

Further information: WP:Do not bite the newcomers

   Most of us were pretty incompetent at editing Wikipedia when we started. We might not have understood wikicode, we might not have signed our posts, or we may not have fully appreciated exactly which sources are reliable. The great thing about this situation is that it's easily fixable. Help the newbies understand what we do here, and soon they'll be making themselves useful. 

Social

   Some people just can't function well in this particular collaborative environment. We can't change Wikipedia to suit them, so if they're unable to change themselves, they'll need to be shown the door.

   Some behavioral issues and personality traits may be correlated with the inability to collaborate in an environment in which collaboration is essential. The Wikipedia community assesses editors solely on the basis of their contributions and actions within Wikipedia. Blocking an editor who has demonstrated that they cannot participate in Wikipedia is not discrimination on the basis of disability (if one exists), even if that disability contributes to their failure to participate. Wikipedia is not therapy.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 13:36, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

DO you have a conflict of interest with the subject of this article? If so, you have to state this. RickinBaltimore (talk) 15:27, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Hello RickInBaltimore, thank you for jumping into the difficulty we are having here. There are no conflicts of interest. The issue is that I am trying to update the information using data found on the internet for the subject's page to match other prominent drummers found on Wikipedia. The previous data on this drummer's page is outdated (from 2011) and there are many more sessions and projects of note to be linked to that are biographically worthwhile. Gigs of note that I was attempting to update, but were removed from the page prematurely, include the subject playing Carnegie Hall and The Winter Olympics in Sochi Russia. The formatting and information was done first in previous edits and was physically putting in the individual references for each of the points, but was simultaneously having large chunks of information removed. The Gear section in particular was a Wiki drummer page mainstay that was removed incorrectly as per other drummer's sites.

It unfortunately appears that this page has been negatively targeted by the new editor Pauciloquence while attempting to do the aforementioned updates. In 2 days time the new editor Pauciloquence has targeted edits of over -12,000 words in the article undoing tons of cleaning up and solidly formatting data and layout. It appears as if the editor in question is waiting for any edits I do and immediately changes or undoes each edit as I go along. Multiple attempts to work together positively with the editor to fix each individual issue either pre or post editing were in vain. Questions and concerns were brought up without much dialogue prior to removal of large chunks of entries. No requests were made by the editor to fix individual issues prior to removal of large groups of biographical information. Disagreements have now been ensuing on the validity of sources and more and more error boxes are appearing at the top of the page. It's very difficult to make positive progress on a page that has been deemed well-sourced for over 5 years that won't have an individual editor allow for the page to be positively updated in 2016. This seems like disruptive behavior by the definitions laid out by the Wiki community especially when dealing with a new editor.

As compared to other well respected drummer pages on Wiki, the Charlie Zeleny page currently has more than 4x the valid and current sources (over 40 references) and should no longer need additional citations for verification (most other drummer sites have 6-14 references on well-sourced pages). Most if not all the sources are reliable and accurate. The tone mimics the same vibe as all the other attached Wikipedia pages of other prominent drummers. Any intricate detail found in the article is also similar to the other prominent drummers found in the list below and is perfect for the target audience of other drummers who want to know the detailed biographical information especially particulars of Gear, Credits and Awards. Attempts for me to undo these error boxes at the top of the article were met with threats of blocking/banning citing the 3 strike rule.

I will absolutely spend the rest of the month updating all of the pertinent information, the references and sources, the formatting and make this page worthy of the other drummers in the Wiki community even if it takes 1,000 credible sources.

But I am putting in a formal request to remove the error banners up top and to put a hold on Pauciloquence from editing this page indefinitely so I can fix and finish the rest of the biographical data and put in each individual adequate source reference. That way I can make positive headway on the entire article instead of spending time arguing over the validity of every single source and having the editor in question remove large chunks of updates as I try to update them. Formatting specifically takes a long time and the Gear section being removed was especially disheartening. My recent responses are in relation to trying to defend the page edits from Pauciloquence's constant undoing and editing as I am going along (seemingly overly gung-ho being a new editor).

For reference, here are drummer pages that all have less sources currently than the Charlie Zeleny page of drummers who are associated with the subject on his projects (there are many more to this list of associated drummers if needed):

Terry_Bozzio, Bobby_Jarzombek, Derek_Roddy, Chris_Adler, Marco_Minnemann, Mike_Portnoy

Here are other drummer pages with less sources than the current Charlie Zeleny page and similar sources that are being disputed. These pages are existing without any problems whatsoever (and is also a short list of drummers starting with the last name starting with A to use as an example, there are at least another 200 valid drum pages I can reference also):

Dave_Abbruzzese, Alex Acuña, Tommy_Aldridge, Rick_Allen_(drummer), Carmine_Appice, Vinny_Appice, Kenny_Aronoff, Nick_Augusto

Just trying to update this page to be equal to the rest of the prominent drummers in the Wiki community. If you have any other ideas or suggestions on how to lay out this page to make it as good as any of the specific linked drummers' pages, please let me know. Also, feel free to give me examples to follow. I want to make this as comprehensive and complete update as possible for the page to be as good as other prominent drummers on Wikipedia for 2017 and beyond. Thank you very much RickInBaltimore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 16:30, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect Copyright Claim - Charlie Zeleny Wikipedia Page

Hey there Bythebooklibrary, the 4 books referenced from links on Amazon.com mention the subject Charlie Zeleny and actually public domain information referenced in the original Wikipedia page article that has been up for over 5 years on the subject Charlie Zeleny. It is common knowledge that the subject is in fact a pro drummer, music director, producer and solo artist. The Charlie Zeleny Wikipedia page has been up for over 5 years (last major update 2011 prior to 2016) and looks like it was actually referenced in the Encyclopedia of Bohemian and Czech-American Biography, Volume 1 by Miloslav Rechcigl Jr. which was released just recently on November 10th, 2016.

Here are multiple sources stating that Charlie Zeleny is an American drummer, music director, producer and solo artist:

• http://www.paiste.com/e/endorser_det.php?page=bio&endorserid=4606
• http://www.futurecomposer.com/2010/12/01/musician-profile-charlie-zeleny/
• https://www.discogs.com/artist/690830-Charlie-Zeleny
• http://www.protectionracket.com/artists/item/charlie-zeleny
• http://pearldrum.com/artists/drumset-artists/charlie-zeleny

Please remove the incorrect copyright claim when you get a chance. Also, please let me know if I need to change the reference to Amazon's books in any way to avoid this issue in the future.

Most of the information in the article is common knowledge sourced from over 62 reference sources so far. Just trying to update this particular article with all the correct sources referenced (last major update appeared to be in 2011). Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 14:53, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

• Copyright clerk here. This is a case of backwards copyvio. The book that was allegedly copied, Encyclopedia of Bohemian and Czech-American Biography was self-published in November 2016. That book quite clearly copied verbatim from the lead paragraph of the Wikipedia article. I suspect many of the other entries in that "encyclopedia" are likewise plagiarised from Wikipedia. Note that the text in question has been on Wikipedia in that form since at least August 2012 as shown here. Another website (vicsdrumshop.com) had also plagiarised the Wikipedia text for their page on a drum clinic led by Zeleny in February 2013, again many months after it appeared on Wikipedia. See their ads here and here. I am going to remove the copyvio template. I have no comment about the other issues raised here concerning the referencing and style of writing. Voceditenore (talk) 16:24, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Please don't, Voceditenore! It's clear from this comparison that the page has been a copyvio since the day it was created. This seems to show that at least some of that copyvio is still present in the page. I think it needs to be re-written from scratch (unless you can see any other way of dealing with this?). I agree of course about the backwards copy – I'd come to the same conclusion, just not quite so quickly. Regards, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:43, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually, Justlettersandnumbers, the first comparison shows very little overlap with charliezeleny.com, at most identical fragments of three sentences. The material still left is absolutely minimal. There's no need to rewrite this from scratch. As it is, both comparisons on the Copyvio Detector with charliezeleny.com state "violation unlikely". But my "manual" comparison reaches the same conclusion. Voceditenore (talk) 17:04, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

I've now re-written the two remaining closely paraphrased sentences [3]. Voceditenore (talk) 17:29, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your analysis. Another copyright issue I have a question about is the multitude of pictures or images contained in the article. If you click them it say they were uploaded by an editor named DrumDocZ which coincidentally is the account name on YouTube where that editor stated it was the official website for the drummer. The text says copyright by Charlie Zeleny. How do you look up to see if the owner really gave permission for the photos to be used. I don't know where to look that up. Can someone check that please? And also, if several of the sections used Wikipedia to write their pages, then this sites can't be used as references on the can they or can't they? Really the best thing may be to junk this article and start fresh. Opinions? Bythebooklibrary (talk) 17:37, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

In light of the above, neither Encyclopedia of Bohemian and Czech-American Biography nor the biography on vicsdrumshop.com should be used as references, given that they copied from Wikipedia and are therefore circular. I would suggest going very carefully through the remaining references. Some of these are quite superfluous. Read Wikipedia:Citation overkill. It has good advice. And that whole In press section needs to go. If he's covered in books in articles, then they should be used as references. There's no need to junk the article, just trim in way back where necessary and build it it back up. I'll have look at the images. Voceditenore (talk) 17:48, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Bythebooklibrary, re the photos see my comments below in the section Image problems. Voceditenore (talk) 18:15, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for dealing with this in a very comprehensive and complete way Voceditenore. This page has been a definite case of backwards copyvio with multiple instances but the page is also referencing a lot of public domain common knowledge about the subject. There are currently 63 source references in the article with many more to be added which is absolutely overkill. But the situation that was ensuing prior to this has been the multiple error boxes at the top of the article added due to lack of references and citations. So additional references and sources were added to fix the issue.

The Harvard Guide To Using Sources states that information and facts are common knowledge if listed in 3 sources and most if not all of this information is found in over 5 sources online. If the phrasing of the Page needs to be updated, that is a very simple fix.

The page is in the process of the completion of all the sources and references and will go back and continue to update the language to be less flowery. Will also make sure that any and all Wikipedia page entries on the subject are more concise and presented in a profession and clean layout manner. It would be much appreciated to work together on editing the current page to make sure that this page looks similar to other prominent drummers that have similar Wikipedia pages such as these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Abbruzzese

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Acu%C3%B1a

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Aldridge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_%28drummer%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmine_Appice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinny_Appice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Aronoff

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Augusto

Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 17:57, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

And regarding the pictures, it appears as if the subject works with a variety of photographers and web designers across his social media and website platforms. Take a look at the main webpage:

• http://www.charliezeleny.com/

Looks like many of these photos are linked directly on the back end of his website and are also incorporated into the actual design of many of his websites and social network sites. I'd imagine that the subject likely hired these photographers and web designers to do these photos and designs so the owner of the copyrights would be the subject. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 18:04, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Image problems

• Re the photos, several of them are clearly problematic. For example File:Charlie Zeleny Birthday Concert 2011.jpg is not by Charlie Zeleny. The image's metadata states "Copyright 2011 Bryan Pace - All Rights Reserved". Some of the remaining photos are hosted on charliezeleny.com but that site is also marked "all rights reserved". They all appear on his official photostream at Flickr here which is linked from his website and they all seem to marked "all rights reserved" there as well. The uploader User:DrumDocZ will have to provide written confirmation via OTRS that he is Charlie Zeleny, owns the copyright, and is releasing them under CC-By-SA or he needs to change the licensing on Flickr to that. Otherwise, they need to be deleted. A bit of a mess. Voceditenore (talk) 18:15, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Good catch. Let me see what information can be found about that and try to track down the drumdocz user to deal with the situation. Thanks Voceditenore 100.35.194.25 (talk) 19:04, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

If you do track down User:DrumDocZ who is very obviously someone closely affiliated to Zeleny, point him to the instructions at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. If they are not followed to the letter, the images will not be kept. Note that all the images for the article are now being discussed for deletion here. Voceditenore (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for the delays in responding to the rest of the information on the Talk page. I didn't scroll up to see additions in each section and I am replying to everything in each section now. Can't track down the drumdocz user yet, whoever that may be. It could be the subject himself or an associate, it could be a fan who really enjoys his youtube page or it could be someone that has nothing to do with the subject (unlikely due to the name chosen though). But I did reach out to the contact page on charliezeleny.com to alert of the Wiki page currently being altered and updated and specifically mentioned that the photos are a major copyright issue and will be removed soon if not taken care of. I listed the permissions-commons@wikimedia.org email address to sort out the copyright situation. So hopefully a quick and speedy resolution can happen with this with a response close to or directly from the subject. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 08:11, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Problematic References

I have removed a couple of references that were unreliable and a few that did not even mention the article subject. One particularly erroneous reference was to the urbandictionary.com The really odd thing is that the article subject's name has been added into the syntax of the reference as part of the title even when his name is not part of the title. The Zeleny name was found to be added to the title on several of the references. Is this some kind of SEO trick or something? It certainly does not seem proper. I am going to comb the history to see which editor added the subject's name falsely into the article titles. Bythebooklibrary (talk) 21:20, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Hey Bythebooklibrary, I added the couple recent aforementioned references and was just trying to be complete and copy the format on the previous references with full titles and all that. A previous editor was complaining that some of the recently added references were incomplete so wanted to provide as much information and detail as possible and tried to keep the same exact text structure on the valid source references that passed inspection. So I believe what you are seeing on some of the entries is a cut and paste of code situation.

If the subject isn't mentioned in those specific articles I do know there are articles where the subject is mentioned on these points. There's a lot of websites out there on the subject plus a bunch of social media sites that confirm the information plus live audio and video interviews available also. But I do know that social media sites are not valid sources, so wanted to track down the correct information on valid sites. SEO doesn't apply to Wikipedia anymore so that seems to be a moot point anyway. But I did read that UrbanDictionary is used as a valid source (as is Wikipedia) in court cases as for evidence, so put that one in there as the source for one reference since it was the most handy at the time. Totally understood that it might be frowned upon as a valid source.

Still tracking down picture information. Probably won't be able to work that out until next week. But there are variety of newer images that appear to be cleared on the subject's site that are more recent and show his updated Gear and gigs. I'll look through all the issues of everything and also keep an eye on the drumdocz profile for answers about the current pics.

I'll continue to also go through all the points made in this discussion, check over the references with a fine tooth comb also, update the rest of the language and keep tweaking the site until it works great for Wikipedia like it has for 5 years prior. Once this drummer is complete, there's a variety of other high profile drummers Wikipedia pages that need a lot of attention also. It was hard to find completely sourced and valid comparable entries. Seems to be an under-served part of the Wikipedia musician and music community. Thanks for the help Bythebooklibrary. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 10:05, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Major trimming and copyediting

I have made extensive changes to this article:

(1) Copyedited it to remove quite blatant puffery

(2) Removal of exceptional but unverified claims, e.g. "Zeleny was the founder and head of Drew's jazz music department for the full three years of his higher education and produced, directed and music directed his own production of the musical Godspell."

(3) Removal of YouTube videos as references for him having performed with a variety of people—completely inappropriate as references and verify nothing.

(4) Formatted one reference with a fake title replacing it with the real title, consolidated two references to the same page that had been given two different titles, etc. Those practices are very misleading.

(5) Removed the entire In performance section, an unreferenced and self-serving "laundry list". Even if it had been referenced to independent sources, that level of detail is appropriate for his web site, not an encylopedia article

(6) Drastically trimmed Current musical projects especially the unverified name dropping laundry list and unverified claims and renamed it Later musical projects ("Current" and other relative time constructs are meaningless and to be avoided. See MOS:RELTIME. In addition, all the projects listed date from 2011, i.e., five years ago.)

There is still more work to do, e.g. checking the remaining references for accurate titles, removing utterly trivial ones which the recordings like the page on the Walmart website selling it. Find a review. Commercial sales pages are worthless and should never be used as "references". Note also that virtually every major claim made about his career is referenced to sources written by him or interviews in which he makes the claims. This is not ideal, and such sources can never be used as the sole verification of exceptional claims. I have removed the tags for unencyclopedic tone and overly intricate detail, as these issues have now been addressed. However, I have left the tags relating to sourcing issues as these are still outstanding problems.

Voceditenore (talk) 15:16, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Hey Voceditenore, thanks for helping on the editing for the subject's page. Couple quick questions and concerns on the article:

• 1) Makes total sense and was trying to go through and do the same
• 2) That particular claim and another couple claims I saw online but still have to find better sources for the page
• 3) YouTube videos showing the subject playing with the said parties should be okay as a source, no? That would be a primary source and show that he has actually performed with the artists and musicians claimed. Let me know your thoughts on the matter. I've seen many other pages successfully list YouTube as a source also. This seems to be just as valid as an actual website and I've seen YouTube claimed as a valid source for court cases even.
• 4) That was probably my fault over here. I was having trouble with repeating references so was copying and pasting the full code everywhere. Is there an easy way to code the page to use a reference already given? Trying to do <ref>title<ref/> didn't seem to work.
• 5) I do think that there are things of note that need to be incorporated that have been removed from that section obviously with supported reference/soured claims. But it might be better to implement these facts throughout the article instead of putting it in an In Performance section.
• 6) Those projects are definitely not current. There are many more projects that are more recent and significant to speak about with the subject including the band Whiplash he has toured with plus many other things.

Thanks for helping out on this page Voceditenore. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 19:38, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Gear lists

Most prominent drummers especially known for their solo work have complete gear lists on Wikipedia and is a very helpful service to the drummer community and Wikipedia community on a whole. Drummers especially with signature gear such as the custom snare Charlie Zeleny has have exactly formatted gear lists. The subject's page should be laid out and fit into the Wiki community in a similar way and should be allowed. These are pages that are well sourced and credited and are in similar length, format and style as the subject's page.

Here's a short list of drummer pages in the Wikipedia community that list similar complete lists of gear:

Chris_Adler, Vinnie_Paul, Mark_Zonder, Adrian_Young, Tim_Yeung, Ronnie_Vannucci_Jr., Lars_Ulrich, Jon_Theodore, Zak_Starkey, Questlove, Scott_Rockenfield, Derek_Roddy, Morgan_Rose, Tony_Royster_Jr., Ilan_Rubin, Phil_Rudd, Chris_Pennie, Thomas_Pridgen, Abe_Laboriel_Jr., Shannon_Larkin, Ray_Luzier, Shannon_Lucas, Jojo_Mayer, Larry_Mullen_Jr., Steve_Jordan_(musician) George_Kollias (drummer), Tomas_Haake, Will_Hunt, Zbigniew Robert Promiński, Adrian_Erlandsson, Zac_Farro, Jon_Fishman, Carter_Beauford, Virgil_Donati, John_Dolmayan, Brann_Dailor, Stewart_Copeland, Billy_Cobham, Damon_Che, Terry_Bozzio

Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 12:48, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Adding this to the Gear list section: since the editors on this page have had issue with the intricate detail of the Gear section, it would be best to delete these 2 enteries: "16" Paiste Twenty Crash w/8" Paiste Twenty Splash" and this entry "Vision VSX Drums / Walnut Burl Burst Finish". It might also be wise to just delete this whole series of info except the following to keep the information clear and concise (you can reference the artist endorser pages below if citation is needed):

   Drums: Pearl
   Cymbals: Paiste
   Heads: Evans
   Sticks: Vic Firth
   Electronics: Roland

References: Pearl: http://pearldrum.com/artists/drumset-artists/charlie-zeleny + Paiste: http://www.paiste.com/e/endorser_det.php?page=bio&endorserid=4606 + Evans: http://daddario.com/EvArtistDetail.Page?ActiveID=3551&ArtistId=40062&tid=3446&ArtistName=Charlie_Zeleny&sid=58cc81aa-0fb8-4321-8e65-0ff80fa5cc0c + Vic Firth: http://vicfirth.com/artist/Charlie_Zeleny/ + Roland: http://www.charliezeleny.com/gear.html. Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 08:26, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

To contributing editor at ip 100.35.194.25:

Do you have any sort of conflict of interest regarding the article subject Charlie Zeleny? Are you perhaps a friend or a member of his family? Or are you actually him? If so, this needs to be disclosed so as to protect the neutral tone of the article. You seem to be going backward by trying to re-add lots of the intricate detail and puffery that has been removed by a set of editors. Please answer, and or declare if you have a conflict of interest here. Thank you. Pauciloquence (talk) 12:19, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

This was spoken about earlier on the Talk page. There is no conflict of interest regarding the subject Charlie Zeleny. The drummer community on a whole seems to be under-serviced with many prominent and famous drummers and musicians that have incomplete, under-sourced pages that have not been fixed or updated for many years. This is one of the drummers on the list that needs to be cleaned up and fixed significantly and is being fixed with a variety of editors. These editors includ Bythebooklibrary and Voceditenore who are not just massively editing the article but bringing up points on the talk page and having us all go back and forth on as a community to fix this page.

There are many more drummer and musician pages that we must all tackle after this to have the Wikipedia drummer community hold more weight. Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 12:54, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

100.35.194.25, I'm going to be much more specific here.

Do you have any affiliation whatsoever with Charles Zeleny, either personal or professional?

Please answer this specific question. If your answer is "yes", then you have an inherent conflict of interest and must follow the guidelines at WP:Conflict of interest (and at WP:Autobiography, if applicable). If your answer is "no" and you continue to maintain that you are simply part of the "Wikipedia drummer community", then you need to stop editing like a typical editor with a conflict of interest. You have edited no other article except this one. You repeatedly attempt to add promotional material to it as well as attempting to turn this encyclopedia article into an extension of Zeleny's website. I will elaborate on that further in a moment. Voceditenore (talk) 07:56, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

In September 2011, Zeleny's official website looked like this and had its own bio. The following month, it appeared to undergo a restructuring and consisted solely of this. In December 2011, User:DrumDocZ (the same name used by Zeleny for his YouTube channel [4]) began editing this article with quite blatantly promotional language and adding an inappropriate level of detail which belongs on the subject's website, not an encyclopedia article, e.g. [5]. He also added multiple copyright images which are available on Zeleny's Flickr photostream. By February 2012 (2 months later), the new version of Zeleny's website had emerged and looked like this. The site remains like that today. Note that when you click on the "CharlieZ" link in the homepage menu bar, it now takes you directly to the Wikipedia page. Ditto the link "CLICK HERE TO READ MORE" at the bottom of the home page. In my experience, that kind of arrangement, has often been a feature of articles with extensive editing by editors with a major conflict of interest. Voceditenore (talk) 09:35, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for all your detailed analysis of the goings on regarding this article and the zeleny website. It has just occurred to me after reading your post that maybe the problem is not only possible COI, but perhaps this SPA IP editor is some sort of PR or media representative paid to promote zeleny as an artist. And he keeps bringing up all these other drummer pages? Odd? I do not even know how to pose the correct question on that. Do you think it may be possible Voceditenore, that this may be an undisclosed paid editor? I would like to get your thoughts on this. Thank you. Pauciloquence (talk) 09:56, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, Pauciloquence, anything is possible. 100.35.194.25 may choose to answer my question above, or not. They may answer truthfully or not. However, the important thing is for them to stop editing and behaving as if they had a conflict of interest. You have now raised this issue at the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard. I have also written there requesting more eyes on the article itself and more input from other editors here on the talk page. I suggest we leave it at that for the moment. Voceditenore (talk) 12:21, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Again, sorry for the delays in responding to the rest of the information on the Talk page. I didn't scroll up to see additions in each section and I am replying to everything in each section now. I do not have a conflict of interest with the subject nor am I paid or from a PR company. I am a new editor who is a fan of many of the drummers I've listed in the drummer community and chose this page prior to embarking on the rest of the pages I linked to since it hasn't been updated since 2011. I was just trying to update this page with similar information to other drummer's Wiki pages that I've seen. I am also a personal fan of the Gear section on the other drummer's Wiki pages with all the intricate detail and love to share this section with other drummer and musician friends. So that's why I was pushing so hard for that addition. Unfortunately, it looks like I may have hurt things a bit more on this page than have helped at times. But once this page is complete and well written and sourced properly, I may be able to try my hand on correctly editing other drummer and musician pages. Currently, I am still very much learning the ropes of Wikipedia and all of the information provided on the Talk page has been extremely helpful and informative. And all the conflict and misunderstandings I've generated on this page, I don't want to have happen on other pages for sure. So want to just stick with this page until the error boxes are removed at the very least. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 08:22, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Manually Reverting The Page

The removed Gear section is being reverted to the full list of gear on the subject similar to most other drummer Wikipedia pages in the community.

In addition to that rollback, the phrasing of the first paragraph will be changed back to the original form to be written in a unique way as compared to the subject's website and elsewhere on the internet to avoid plagiarism. Thank you very much.

Second Rollback of changes

Same issues apply above. Making formal request for Block and Ban of Pauciloquence.

All other editors have been extremely helpful in updating this page in constructive, comprehensive and complete ways. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 13:19, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

The listing of all the drum equipment is too much intricate detail and actually a bit promotional. What other wikipedia pages say is not relevant here at this article.

The words prominent and others are weasel words and will stay removed at this article. If you continue to re add them I will ask an administrator to counsel on the matter. There is no plagiarism, that is just something you are saying. Show me where removing weasel words plagiarizes from anywhere. Pauciloquence (talk) 13:21, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with P. The article was just getting trimmed down to size and you go back adding back multiple items that were already removed. That is not the way to go. We can all have a civil discussion here and decide the right way to go. Both of you should stop changing those parts until more input from other editors occurs here at the talk page. IP 100 please tone those headers down and remove the bolding since there is no need for it. Bythebooklibrary (talk) 13:37, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Just reported Pauciloquence for Vandalism, Disruptive Behavior and Harrassment and am requesting formal Block and Ban. All bold entries were for the record of the three revert rule in relation to this issue and all other issues with Pauciloquence. Will refrain from bold headings moving forward most definitely.

Hey Bythebooklibrary, thank you for all the work you and the other editors who have been positively changing the article have done recently. The situation is that there are literally hundreds of prominent drummer Wiki sites that fully list each drummer's gear (please see references above on this Talk page) and I know it is a mainstay in the drummer wiki community from the shares and connections I've seen on major sites like ModernDrummer.com, Drummerworld.com and more. It's not promotional, it's showing exactly what instruments each drummer plays and are listed as informative facts. Just like you would mention that a classical violinist plays a certain make and model Stradivarius violin, these pages are showing exactly what instruments are in the collection of drums and cymbals of each drummer on these pages. Very helpful to know for everyone in the Wiki community to know most definitely. Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 13:50, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I really hate to say it but you are wrong about this ip100. P has not committed any vandalism or harassment. If anything it looks like you are harassing P for being new here. Everyone was new once. And your reasoning about other drummer articles is really not the issue. It looks like you are becoming really stressed by all of this. We have nothing but time because there is no deadline on wikopedia. You really should step back, take a moment and read all the words you have posted here. You should really take a deep breath or have a cup of tea! Bythebooklibrary (talk) 14:12, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the speedy response Bythebooklibrary. I am curious what the other editors think about this situation for sure which is why I made the formal request. But I am also interested in starting a dialogue on about the Gear section to add that information back as per the other pages. And if there appears to be any problems happening in this situation regarding Pacilouquece, it's due to trying to work collaboratively over a period many days back and forth as shown above, but still having tens of thousands of words of edits and formatting deleted and undone without any discussion on this page. Seems to be against the Wiki policy of Disruptive Editing and doesn't actually help the page overall. Perhaps it is due to the newness of the editor joining Wikipedia. But it's been refreshing to have you and the other editors positively working on this page together to make the editing process so much more smooth and helpful. We've had a very positive dialogue and have made so much more headway than having to go back and forth on microchanges derailing any forward momentum on the article. No rush on my end at all over here either, it will take as long as it takes to do a great article together for sure. This whole collaborative encyclopedia community is fascinating to be a part of. But I definitely don't take lightly to individuals negatively targeting a page or a user in what is supposed to be a positive working community is all. Let me know what you think of the Gear section when you get a chance though. It appears on all the drummers in the list above and am trying to model the edits of this page after the other prominent drummer articles. Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 14:44, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

And to further expound upon comparison to other drummer wiki pages: I see sections of Wikipedia as flowing together in certain communities. Meaning, when I look at a business person's page, I expect to see similar info laid out in a similar fashion to all other business people on wiki. The same goes for politicians, companies and all sorts of other pages. For instance, it was interesting to see the transition of the Donald Trump page from a business person's page to a politician, and now interestingly enough, to the new President of the USA. I think there is something powerful in a community that has pages that mimic each other for the quick and easy gaining of information for all readers. It also lends a certain validity in the overall presentation. In fact, if we can mimic some of the most well laid out drummer sites, we can all go back and use this page as a template to update the rest. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 14:57, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Talk page behaviour

I have renamed to neutral wording several very inappropriate topic headings on this page, e.g. [6], [7]. Per Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines:

• Don't address other users in a heading
• Never use headings to attack other users

User:100.35.194.25, please refrain from using such inappropriate headings again. Please read all the guidelines at the page carefully, and follow them scrupulously going forward.

I have also formatted the lengthy lists of other WP articles which you have repeatedly added. Use the correct linking protocol for internal links, e.g. Terry Bozzio using this markup: [[Terry Bozzio]], not bare urls like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Bozzio.

Having said that, repeating lengthy lists of articles which may or may not have the same problems as this one, is pointless and becoming disruptive. There are many, many sub-standard articles on Wikipedia, the fact that another article is substandard, contains the same kind of potentially inappropriate material as this one, or uses poor references, is never a valid argument for doing the same in this one. Charlie Zeleny is the article under discussion—no others. Decisions about its content are made by a consensus of editors via discussion on this talk page and they must be based on the relevant policies and guidelines—nothing else. Voceditenore (talk) 07:27, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Hey Voceditenore, thanks for this. And meant no harm by anything that was listed that has been deemed inappropriate on this page. Understood completely and will refrain from doing so moving forward.

Additionally, I can understand and agree that other pages may be deemed invalid due to lack of or unreliable sourcing material and that individual pages should be looked at with regards to the overall Wiki policies and guidelines.

I do disagree that many of these other pages contain inappropriate material otherwise though. It appears that many of these pages are generally well laid out and include sections that give much more information on the subject that the Wiki and Wiki drummer community want to hear about. That is why these particulars are included on each page without any error boxes. But whatever the consensus of the editors on this page decide is best for this subjects page should be how this article is laid out.

With that being said, the article should be cleaned up a bit more to remove the final error messages. And since the editors on this page have had issue with the parts of the article including the Gear section, it would be best to delete these 2 enteries: "16" Paiste Twenty Crash w/8" Paiste Twenty Splash" and this entry "Vision VSX Drums / Walnut Burl Burst Finish". It might also be wise to just delete this whole series of info except the following to keep the information clear and concise (you can reference the artist endorser pages below if citation is needed):

Drums: Pearl

Cymbals: Paiste

Heads: Evans

Sticks: Vic Firth

Electronics: Roland

References:

• Pearl: http://pearldrum.com/artists/drumset-artists/charlie-zeleny
• Paiste: http://www.paiste.com/e/endorser_det.php?page=bio&endorserid=4606
• Evans: http://daddario.com/EvArtistDetail.Page?ActiveID=3551&ArtistId=40062&tid=3446&ArtistName=Charlie_Zeleny&sid=58cc81aa-0fb8-4321-8e65-0ff80fa5cc0c
• Vic Firth: http://vicfirth.com/artist/Charlie_Zeleny/
• Roland: http://www.charliezeleny.com/gear.html

The Discography section is lacking 2 specific sources for the following:

Jay Hansen - “Within this Process of Adaptation” - Anonymously Known Records - 2004[citation needed]

Here's a source where the subject is listed as in the band, but if this is not a robust or direct enough source regarding this album, this whole credit should be deleted:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=45969

The final source missing is this:

Kristin Chenoweth - Live on AOL Sessions - 2011[citation needed]

Kristin Chenoweth at AOL Sessions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0CcKTgf3C0

The subject is clearly seen at the top of the video counting off the song in a closeup and throughout the whole video as they did similarly on this entry:

Kristin Chenoweth - Live on The View - 2011

The plight of the session musician is they tend to play with a host of artists and bands and many times do not get full or adequate credit for the experience regarding full press mentions. But a direct YouTube video link in this case should be a justifiable source in both of the Kristin Chenoweth cases since you visibly see him performing with the said artist. So this entry should stay and be sourced to the YT video appropriately.

For the citation needed under the Later musical projects: He also led 30 session musicians at The Charlie Z All Star Birthday Concert performed at The Bitter End on September 19, 2011.[citation needed]

Here is a Village Voice link to the Charlie Zeleny All Star Birthday Concert:

http://digitalissue.villagevoice.com/publication/index.php?i=81677&m=&l=&p=59&pre=&ver=swf

Finally, the first paragraph has a missing citations for Rock of Ages relating to the guest star Dee Snider and the main cast member Constantine Maroulis found here:

http://www.playbill.com/article/dee-snider-to-join-cast-of-broadways-rock-of-ages-com-172240

http://www.playbill.com/article/constantine-maroulis-leaves-behind-record-breaking-rock-of-ages-talks-idol-stardom-fatherhood-and-haters-com-339503

There is more info in a very in depth and recent article here to substantiate other claims especially any Early life discrepancies including the information of the Drew University jazz program etc:

http://riseupeight.org/session-musician/

The final couple of things to mention is the Later musical projects section could stand to be updated with a couple more recent projects since both of the facts listed are from 2011. The subject has done a good deal more since 2011 so there should be a couple more additional sentences with proper reference sourcing added to this section. I'll put together the information and sources for another couple sentences for this coming up in a couple weeks.

Outside of this, the photos are still an issue and am still trying to track down the drumdocz user and account on this. But will let you know what I come up with on that front.

But this overall article has come leaps and bounds from where it started. Ultimately, this page looks like it's going to be a solid part of the Wiki community after some more tweaking. Thanks for all your help Voceditenore. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 15:30, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Really, 100.35.194.25, your participation on this talk page is chaotic verging on the disruptive. You repeat multiple assertions about multiple issues multiple times in different sections, thereby making a coherent discussion impossible. If you want to discuss the gear section of the article, then use the section on this page at Gear lists above and use it solely for discussing that issue. If you want to discuss referencing and sourcing issues, then address them in a single section. It's become such a mess, that I am going to start a new section below for that purpose. Kindly confine your discussion of existing sources, proposal of new sources, etc. to that section. And please learn to indent your comments properly. Before you respond further on this talk page, please read Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines from top to bottom. Voceditenore (talk) 17:00, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

I apologize for any chaos or disruption on the talk page most definitely. No harm intended. Did not know that I should be splitting up ideas of discussion into the categories across the whole page. I thought it was more of a running timeline like Reddit with responses. Just added the deletion request of some of the Gear and reformatting to the Gear list section on the Talk page. I'll now put the sources/references ideas and discussion into a separate section. And I just read the Talk Page Guidlines on Wiki as per your request. Thanks for the information. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 08:35, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

References and sources

Re Rock of Ages. The following sources proposed do not mention Zeleny at all and therefore cannot be used as references to verify that he "performed with Dee Snider and Constantine Maroulis on the Rock of Ages Broadway show":

http://www.playbill.com/article/dee-snider-to-join-cast-of-broadways-rock-of-ages-com-172240

http://www.playbill.com/article/constantine-maroulis-leaves-behind-record-breaking-rock-of-ages-talks-idol-stardom-fatherhood-and-haters-com-339503

Note that the IBDB does not list him at all [8] nor does the musical's official website [9]. Jon Weber is listed as the drummer in both. I am removing that assertion. Voceditenore (talk) 17:00, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Looks like here is a reference to the Rock of Ages credit found in Modern Drummer:

http://www.moderndrummer.com/2016/06/beat-charlie-z-drumageddon-cyborg-drummerdj/

And a total series of photos on the subject's Flickr site showing him playing Metlife Stadium with Rock of Ages:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny/6643719953/

And a video of the performance where he is visible playing the drums:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJWFzIgDCyE

I would definitely leave that credit in but perhaps reword and source the entry appropriately. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 17:08, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

No the Modern Drummer column, is written by Zeleny himself in which he repeats all the (sometimes exaggerated) claims about his career that were in the WP article. That is not a suitable source to support the claim. Nor should a reference require the reader to watch a video and figure out if the briefly glimpsed drummer is Zeleny. Ditto a promo photograph on the subject's Flckr stream which shows him posing with his drums above an empty stadium. In any case, this wasn't a performance of the musical at all. It was the cast performing various songs during the half-time entertainment at a 2010 Jets game. If his participation in the half-time performance were at all notable, then an independent source would have written about it. Voceditenore (talk) 17:29, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Re the claim that "Zeleny was the founder and head of Drew [University]'s jazz music department. That is an exceptional claim. The source at riseupeight.org is simply Zeleny talking about himself again, on a website that actively solicits personal stories. It cannot be used to verify a claim of that nature. At the very least, it would require a source from the university or some other entirely independent source. Voceditenore (talk) 17:49, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Good catch on the Modern Drummer column. But it does look like from his Flickr site that he was in fact at the stadium :and playing with the Rock of Ages cast. Many of these pictures do corroborate claims in the Wiki article visibly:

• https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny

Specifically for the Rock of Ages performance:

• https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny/6643726919/
• https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny/6643725289/
• https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny/6643725127/
• https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny/6643721007/
• https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny/6643720833/

Did a quick Google search and found these as more substantial support including the Metlife Stadium fact:

• http://bravewords.com/news/whiplash-announce-new-drummer-plague-of-pain-tour-dates

Here's a really comprehensive and recent interview to reference throughout the page:

• http://riseupeight.org/session-musician/

Here's a really comprehensive biography on the Whiplash band website including the Metlife Stadium fact:

• http://www.officialwhiplash.com/

Plus similar info on all his endorser websites:

• http://pearldrum.com/artists/drumset-artists/charlie-zeleny
• http://daddario.com/EvArtistDetail.Page?ActiveID=3551&ArtistId=40062&sid=0c794bb9-6c16-43b3-ac5b-709ab9f002a2

It looks like most if not all of the claims he makes are legit. It does look like it's difficult to get a full actual mentioned credit on many of the gigs and sessions he does though, even if he was on many of these for years. Session musicians seem to have a tendency to be more of the unsung heroes of the music industry. But when their contributions are significant like Charlie Zeleny's across a myriad of genres, bands, artists and styles, perhaps some extra significance comes with the breadth and number of artists of their career rather than with each individual gig and session. Regardless, this Wikipedia site needs to be updated and sourced properly for sure and am glad we are all collaborating positively on it currently. Thank you very much Voceditenore 100.35.194.25 (talk) 17:56, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

The Drew jazz claim does seem to be a bit exceptional for sure. In the Rise Up Eight article he goes into detail about it when prompted though. This site seems to be a valid source and claim with an interviewer that has had artists like Rikki Rocket from Poison and Jordan Rudess from Dream Theater interviewed. But I'd imagine if the claim was real there would be local and on campus press about it at Drew and some concert information. Doing a quick Google search for that now. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 18:03, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Having trouble finding local paper or on campus information from that long ago so far on Google. If you feel that the Rise Up Eight site is insufficient for a source for the whole Drew jazz situation currently, however phrased, then it should be left out. If I happen to find any sort of local papers or on campus information I'll post on here again. But might just be an un-sourcable claim from back then. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 18:28, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, you'll have to find a completely independent source for the Drew University claim or it stays out of the article. The interview on Riseupeight.org is not remotely reliable. Their "interviews" are simply mouthpieces for the interviewees. The site solicits them [10]. Riseupeight.org was begun in 2016. All the "questions" in that interview and the intro simply repeat claims and even the wording of material that was placed in the WP article in 2011. It cannot be used to verify a single exceptional or self-serving claim. Ditto the self-written biography on the Whiplash site. On a more general note and as I said above, this is an encyclopedia article, not an extension of Zeleny's website, although it has clearly been used by him in this way. The purpose of this Wikipedia article is not to document every single performance he's ever done as a session musician. That is the purpose of his website. Yes, it's difficult to find independent coverage of session musicians, but if they have made a significant impact, there will be coverage. Take a look at the main sources for Mayuto Correa. The contents, length, and amount of detail in Charlie Zeleny must reflect what independent, reliable published sources have written about him. Continuing to propose references which quite clearly do not meet those is not helpful. Voceditenore (talk) 19:12, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Another great catch on the Rise Up Eight interviews. No idea that it was a situation that did not hold weight at all like that. Thought it was an actually credible source that seeks out artists to interview. Same thing with the credible publication Modern Drummer which I assumed was just a normal article in the magazine. Thanks for clearing that up.

Absolutely true that there should be no overlap as an extension of the Charlie Zeleny website for sure. So an eye on the wording and of course sources needs to be a priority. I am looking over the Mayuto Correa page now and it's laid out very well and is also succinct and concise which we should definitely aim for on this page. Thanks for this positive example.

I do find it interesting that there are only 10 sources on the Mayuto Correa page overall. There still seems to be some unsubstantiated claims, particularly in the first paragraph of the article. Is this due to common knowledge claims that have been written in a variety of sources for a lengthy period of time or the fact that all the sources on this page already state these biographical facts in the articles and doesn't need to be sourced in specific references? 100.35.194.25 (talk) 19:42, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

There is not a single unsubstantiated claim in any of Correa article's paragraphs. The contents of each paragraph are verified by the references attached to those paragraphs. When you have high quality sources, you don't need dozens of references, and in fact, citation overkill is deprecated. I chose that article to point out to you the difference between an article like that and this one. The Correa article was written by finding reliable independent sources first and then building the article from them (more about the background to that here). This one began as a promotional piece based solely on what the subject has said about himself and continued in that vein. The lack of independent sourcing combined with extensive name-dropping meant a reverse process of searching for anything which could possibly substantiate his claims and the resulting plethora of often inappropriate sources. Voceditenore (talk) 07:00, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

This is extremely informative and helpful in further understanding Wiki editing. Just read through the Mayuto page and see that the robustness of the individual sources are very high so less references have to be used. That makes complete sense and should definitely be the goal on this page and any/all other drummer pages referenced moving forward. Also, when I went to the view history and also the link you provided on the noticeboard, it showed that Mayuto himself seemed to echo my original ideas about how Wiki works. When I tried to add and update the page using information that I found online, I was met with immediate removal of large sections of information which caused a lot of conflict and misunderstanding. Turns out that it appears that many users and new editors are misinformed on the legitimate Wiki policies of these pages. I think part of the situation is the almost legalese way of how the Wiki policy pages are written combined with the fact that there are so many the other sites that appear not to have as much scrutiny with regards to the style of writing, sources and type/amount of detail on the page. It's also very interesting that there is not only no central administrator that runs the site but also that literally anyone can edit just about any page. These things together can cause a lot of confusion on how Wiki works and what it is all about. I almost feel like there should be more of a formal process of editing individual pages right from the start to avoid these kinds of problems. Meaning, higher level administrators should only be the ones able to edit individual pages and all of the ideas and info for lower level administrators and new editors like myself should only be able to give suggestions with correct sources and references via the Talk page. Ultimately, the core Wiki principles and policies need to be followed equally across all pages in the Wiki community to have more consistency to avoid some of these problems. Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 07:52, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

The Discography section is lacking 2 specific sources for the following: Jay Hansen - “Within this Process of Adaptation” - Anonymously Known Records - 2004[citation needed]. Here's a source where the subject is listed as in the band, but if this is not a robust or direct enough source regarding this album, this whole credit should be deleted: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=45969. The final source missing is this: Kristin Chenoweth - Live on AOL Sessions - 2011[citation needed]. Kristin Chenoweth at AOL Sessions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0CcKTgf3C0. The subject is clearly seen at the top of the video counting off the song in a closeup and throughout the whole video as they did similarly on this entry: Kristin Chenoweth - Live on The View - 2011. For the citation needed under the Later musical projects: He also led 30 session musicians at The Charlie Z All Star Birthday Concert performed at The Bitter End on September 19, 2011.[citation needed]. Here is a Village Voice link to the Charlie Zeleny All Star Birthday Concert: http://digitalissue.villagevoice.com/publication/index.php?i=81677&m=&l=&p=59&pre=&ver=swf 100.35.194.25 (talk) 08:39, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

As was stated earlier on this talk page by Voceditore: a youtube reference to show CZ worked with or performed with someone is not sufficient to verify, and it proves nothing. For those two Chenoweth ones to stay in we need a reference to a reliable source. Please see: WP:RS. This has been discussed over and over. Pauciloquence (talk) 08:46, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

As for the Jay Hansen reference you have put forth, soundclick.com looks to be a user generated site and would not be considered a reliable source. Anyone may sign up and write copy or text there. Pauciloquence (talk) 08:51, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Understood on the Jay Hansen site. So definitely nix that one from the page. It's also a situation where the actual album mentioned is not on the page. So I now know that it is an invalid source after all the discussions on the Talk page here. But as for the Kristin Chenoweth videos, they do seem to be noteworthy for the page and would like to see what kind of source would allow them to stay. She is a Broadway star and was on the show Glee which is significant. But understand how YouTube videos may be viewed as inadequate sources. A quick Google search doesn't turn up much except corroboration on social sites like Flickr and Facebook. Any ideas of what kinds of sources we can use to try to keep Kristin Chenoweth in?

Just read this on the WP:RS article more in depth and found the Definition of published information interesting to bring up in discussion about the Kristin Chenoweth videos specifically. The videos are the published live camera feed from the professionally broadcast live TV performance of The View and the studio recorded AOL Session Performance that were both published by the third parties ABC (for The View) and through AOL Time Warner (for AOL Music Sessions). The YouTube linked appears to be a slightly more credible source than we may have been giving credit for due to it being a Kristin Chenoweth Vevo account with over 3 million collective views on the channel. Here's the section of the article of note: Definition of published information: The term "published" is most commonly associated with text materials, either in traditional printed format or online. However, audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable sources. Like text sources, media sources must be produced by a reliable third party and be properly cited. Additionally, an archived copy of the media must exist. It is convenient, but by no means necessary, for the archived copy to be accessible via the Internet. Just some food for thought on this. Let me know your thoughts when you can. Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 10:16, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Just moving this section down to the bottom to keep this as one separate topic to talk about. It does look like from his Flickr site that he was in fact at the stadium and playing with the Rock of Ages cast for NY Jets Halftime show. If this is so and we can agree on some of these sources being valid, playing that big of a stadium with a major Broadway show sounds like it would definitely be a noteworthy point in a session drummers career. Many of these pictures do corroborate claims in the Wiki article visibly: https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny and specifically https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny/6643726919/ + https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny/6643725289/ + https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny/6643725127/ + https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny/6643721007/ + https://www.flickr.com/photos/charliezeleny/6643720833/. It was also mentioned at http://bravewords.com/news/whiplash-announce-new-drummer-plague-of-pain-tour-dates, in the http://riseupeight.org/session-musician/ interview and was written about by Whiplash here http://www.officialwhiplash.com/ plus is found on his endorsers websites: http://pearldrum.com/artists/drumset-artists/charlie-zeleny + http://daddario.com/EvArtistDetail.Page?ActiveID=3551&ArtistId=40062&sid=0c794bb9-6c16-43b3-ac5b-709ab9f002a2 after doing a quick Google search. But don't know how many of these specific pages would be considered great sources individually. But maybe there is some valid support in the culmination of a variety of less than stellar sources put together to keep the Rock of Ages credit on his page. Thoughts? 100.35.194.25 (talk) 09:02, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

As for the reference for the claim, "He also led 30 session musicians at The Charlie Z All Star Birthday Concert performed at The Bitter End on September 19, 2011." The reference is merely a listing of the event, time and place. It does not substantiate the claim that CZ led 30 session musicians at said event. Pauciloquence (talk) 09:06, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Last time I looked all those images at his flikr stream are copyrighted and state All Rights Reserved. Cannot be used at all unless the copyright situation changes. My thought for you on finding reliable sources is to get videos and images out of your mind for this. Have you had a chance to read WP:RS? Basically you would need to find some reliable sources that commented or discussed the particular show or appearance that you wish to cite. There may not be any, and such those items might have to be removed. As for " But maybe there is some valid support in the culmination of a variety of less than stellar sources put together to keep the Rock of Ages credit on his page." Less than stellar sources? Ummm No! Pauciloquence (talk) 09:15, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Understood on finding sources that do not include images and videos moving forward. But definitely want to note that it's sometimes difficult to substantiate session musicians credits due to them not being properly credited with the higher profile artists they play with. Many times only a couple photos or videos exist of the performances which could theoretically be primary sources if the subjects are obviously visible and have some sort of history online of them performing with the claimed artists. I did mention this to Voceditenore somewhere above. I guess it's difficult to find the line between fulfilling all the strict Wiki policies and keeping some sort of human element in personally assessing sources or claims to include in the article. It appears as if many of the claims on the subject are valid, but might have to be culled down to a strict encyclopedic language and reference a couple decent sources to be included. I guess my main point here is that just because we can't find 1 overwhelmingly robust source doesn't mean certain significant parts of the subject's career didn't happen especially if we can grab a variety of other sources and use our human judgement here.

Also, one question regarding images, if these copyrighted images do get resolved, can they be used as sources or evidence in relation to the Wiki article? I just read through the linked WP:RS page and this specific question is still unclear to me. I also did email the contact on the charliezeleny.com page to alter of the Wiki page image copyright issue and gave the permissions-commons@wikimedia.org to try to resolve the issue. So hopefully things get resolved and copyrighted images get removed and images that are valid stay on the page. Perhaps they can help substantiate some of the claims on the Wikipedia site also which could prove to be helpful in finishing up this article. Please let me know. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 09:47, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

"we can grab a variety of other sources and use our human judgement here." You asked this just before with a different set of words. Again, the answer is Umm No! Perhaps if you want the rules in the policy for RS to be softened or changed, you could share your ideas and rationales on the RS noticeboards. Until something is officially changed we go by the rules and policies currently in place. As for the images, again, one image or video cannot be used to verify a claim that cz worked with someone. Again, mind off images and videos. You may have to do more than a quick google search, but as you said a session musician that appears with a broadway star probably is not going to be discussed significantly in reliable sources. He gains no notability because of the star, notability cannot be inherited. Do not get me started about the possibility of CZ's notability or lack thereof. I did take a look at some of the other musicians pages you listed, and found that hardly any of them had the ton of youtube refs that were found at first in this article. Pauciloquence (talk) 10:16, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Understood. Then please ignore the above post I did under the Kristin Chenoweth heading above where I ask about published videos since it's already spoken about and answered here. Rules are rules most certainly and we definitely should follow the rules until they change. The interesting thing that you mentioned is that "He gains no notability because of the star, notability cannot be inherited." So are you are saying is that a subject must have his own path to significance and cannot solely be riding on the coattails of more famous individuals that he plays for? That would make things particularly difficult for any and all session musicians to get well credited sources for the artists they play for. But maybe that is the point actually. Maybe the subject's significance is mainly found in a subjects individual projects, personal contributions to the field and noteworthy bands he's a part of rather than the sessions he's played overall. If that's the case then more of a focus should be on things like his Drumageddon videos (like we added in at the top of the article) rather than listing a large amount of sessions he's performed. Is this a correct way to look at this? Many of the added YouTube links were added in quickly and hastily by me since a lot of information was being removed so quickly from the page like I mentioned earlier here.

But in relation to the overall significance of the subject, it appears obvious that there is a certain level of significance in the field for sure with the quality, number and breadth of his contributions to the music industry. He's been in some very unique underground bands, played some big stages around the world and has performed with significant artists in a variety of genres plus is a mainstay in the New York music community to the present day. It appears as if his name is mentioned in a variety of published books also due to his contributions. But your response is totally understandable if you happen not to know the subject's name or work contributions to the field prior to helping edit this article. And to respond to your comment about other drummers references and articles you've looked at, there appears to be a good deal less references overall with more robust sources which is what we'll likely end up with on this page. Many of the other drummers are also older than the subject and don't have a significant YouTube presence which is more of a modern phenomenon. We are still in the beginning stages of regulation and copyrights for YouTube, Spotify and other streaming services and how they work together with sites like Wikipedia for sure. Many other drummers also don't seem to have projects where there is a major leadership component involved with regards to musical direction and bandleading in addition to playing the drums. A drummer like Mike Portnoy, Buddy Rich, Max Weinberg, Questlove or a couple other bandleading drummers seem to be the exception on this front. Hope that helps clarify things a bit. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 10:32, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Zeleny passes notability criteria 6 of WP:MUSICBIO "a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles". In this case it would be Behold... The Arctopus (an execrably referenced article, by the way) and Blotted Science (almost as bad). However, the content of his own article is a separate issue. It must be in proportion to the availability of independent reliable sources which cover the subject in some kind of depth. The fewer there are, the more succinct the article will be. Wikipedia is not about documenting every individual "accomplishment" of the subject. It's about documenting those aspects of the subject which have already been deemed sufficiently noteworthy by independent, reliable, published sources to merit their writing (or some cases broadcasting) about them in a non-trivial way. In no way does a simple YouTube video showing Zeleny as one of the session musicians meet that criteria. Ditto a photograph, whether it is hosted on Wikipedia or somewhere else. Nor do editors engage in their own "expert" assessments of an individual's reputation or significance. We summarize what independent published sources have said in that respect. 100.35.194.25, you have now written acres of text here essentially trying to flog a dead horse. Please stop. This talk page is not the place to argue for changing Wikipedia policies and guidelines that you are unhappy with. I suggest you try your luck at starting a discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) or Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources. Continued lengthy commentary here on that meta-subject is inappropriate, makes a complete morass of the talk page, and accomplishes nothing in terms of improving the article. Voceditenore (talk) 12:24, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Duly noted. Will keep the meta-subject discussion down to a minimum. Just trying to understand the rules and policies a bit deeper in relation to all of this and thank you all for your time in illustrating what is and is not allowed on the page. I am a new editor and as many times as I have read the Wiki policies, there still appears to be some gray areas which is why I have brought up these topics of discussion in relation to the subject. It sounds like bands and individual projects hold a lot more weight for musicians than do sessions which is totally fine due to overall significance. Makes a lot of sense and is the polar opposite of how I was initially approaching the page with laundry lists of info and credits. I'll continue to seek out specific valid references for certain claims until we can cull out the poorly sourced references completely and have enough verifications and citations for removing the error boxes. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 12:43, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Sources and References Continued

Here's a reference mentioning Charlie Z in the role of Cracked Latin's - In Situ - Live at Iridium CD: http://www.mwe3.com/reviews/CrackedLatinIS/

Here's a reference to the Charlie Z Lucie Awards for the other 2 credits (looks like he has led jazz bands at Carnegie Hall, Lincoln Center and American Airlines Theater for over a decade at this point): http://www.americanphotomag.com/see-photographs-from-2016-lucie-award-winners 100.35.194.25 (talk) 12:54, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Can we get a new section break or something. I am not planning to keep scrolling through these walls of text? Pauciloquence (talk) 13:12, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Since we don't deem YouTube videos as adequate sources, the Telling on Trixie "Halfway Back to Sane Video" should likely be removed. There is found in the post of the user DerekNicoletto on YouTube, who seems to be the band's lead singer, listing the video's cast and crew in the description of the video here: Uploaded on Aug 16, 2007/ http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZ... Telling on Trixie's Debut Music Video! Featuring ANTM's Jade Cole as the nurse. Official MPMF entrant. Brad Small, Tommy Kessler, Matt Aronoff, Derek Nicoletto, Charlie Zeleny, Monique Rochelle (nurse), Jade Cole (nurse) Director: Victor Medina - San Andrés, Producer/Editor: Jarret Egan, Appia Film, DP: Jorge Valdés-Iga. The director of the music video has a credit that comes up on his IMDB here: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1756459/otherworks?ref_=nmbio_ql_2 and is listed in the MTV styled bottom left hand text block at the beginning and the end of the video as being the director.

Here is also another source of Charlie Zeleny as a member of the band with a link to the same video: http://soundtracktomyday.blogspot.com/2009/07/telling-on-trixie-halfway-back-to-sane.html 100.35.194.25 (talk) 13:16, 19 December 2016 (UTC)