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December 28

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 00:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, there are already many superhero categories. -- ProveIt (talk) 23:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 00:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:000-related films (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete - Undefined category which serves no conceivable purpose. Otto4711 23:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Subcategories of Category:Bisexual actors

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The result of the debate was keep. Timrollpickering 00:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's been subcategorised by nationality, which makes the whole system useless and uninformative of bisexual actors as a whole and also incompatible with its contemporary categories, such as Category:Gay actors. We have categories like Category:LGBT actors from the United States, which is far more useful for identifying LGBT by nationality. All the various subcategories of bisexual actors (e.g. Category:Bisexual American actors, Category:Bisexual Slovak actors) should be upmerged into bisexual actors!~ZytheTalk to me! 22:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Unsure about upmerge suggestion. Please provide category link and detail merge from and merge to categories. TonyTheTiger 01:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep all There is no reason to breach the usual approach of categorising by nationality. Osomec 17:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Which is done by "LGBT actors by such and such". A bit like how Film actors and American actors were separate until recently. The categories serve no purpose whatsoever when they're "bisexual Slovak actors", containing one person. How does that serve ANY function whatsoever? It also depreciates Slovak actors by removing one of its articles. ~ZytheTalk to me! 17:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is absolutely as useful as by nationality categories which are used in hundreds and hundreds of other cases, so what is the real reason for this nomination? Zythe's arguments lack logic as the same point could be made in favor of leaving everyone in Category:American people and so on. We don't rely on one set of categories to define something and another to define nationality in other fields, so why should we in this one? What is the ideological (POV) reason for demanding it? As for Category:Slovak actors, that should contain zero articles, which is where all the national actor categories should be heading in the long run. There is no minimum category size and it was established a long time ago that single member categories are acceptable. If large categories are subdivided some single member categories are bound to arise unless people from smaller countries are deliberately not categorized with the same precision as those from large countries, which would be inconsistent, untidy and ridiculous. Sumahoy 22:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't believe people are even considering this. LGBT by nationality and which letter of LGBT you are should be kept separate as both serve different purposes. And exactly, "if large categories are subdivided some single member categories are bound to arise unless people from smaller countries are deliberately not categorized with the same precision as those from large countries, which would be inconsistent, untidy and ridiculous" as you said. Answer? Don't subdivide the category and make it useless as a collection of bisexual actors. If everything gets subdivided so much, they may as well be strings of words that don't link anywhere at the bottom of a page. "American bisexual television actors who committed suicide in their twenties" or "British lesbian composes who were victims of cancer", maybe? What's the point of categorising people into groups if they're so subdivided the groups lose all meaning. Should we subcategorize everything by nationality? How about Category:Deaths from diabetes in people from the United States or Category:Worst Supporting Actor Razzie (amongst United States persons)? Ludicrous. ~ZytheTalk to me! 23:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Not a problem as people who want to see all the articles can click on the various categories in turn. The number of articles in each category adds context. Wilchett 03:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Subcategories by nationality can be a pain. There is a dichotomy that everyone seems to be accepting in this debate. On the one side are those that want small specific categories, and see a utility to it. On the other is those that see value in the larger categories and don't want them diffused into smaller ones that may be tiny. So why cant we have both? What is wrong with duplicating membership in both the small and larg categories? Nobody is advocating removing the large category, so why can't we just evaluate smaller subcategories on their own merits and decide if they are useful. If they are, keep them WITHOUT unpopulating the larger categories. As for the smaller subcategories, I think it is more reasonable to categorize actors by language than by nationality, but there is no reason that we can't do it more than one way. So, I guess I'm saying Keep, but only if the larger categories are not depopulated. Since nobody seems to be going for the idea of duplicating without depopulating, I must advocate Delete. --Samuel Wantman 07:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and make sure the parent categories are depopulated per best practice. Hawkestone 15:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't believe this is going to end up getting no consensus. Crossing LGBT by occupation with LGBT by nationality is a bad, bad idea! None of the points made in favour of it are any good at all! You want their nationality? You look at the category next to it. I mean, for example, Margaret Cho says: LGBT Asian Americans | Bisexual American actors | LGBT comedians | LGBT rights activists | 1968 births | Living people. We already know she's an LGBT American, then it's like ... bisexual American. Why not LGBT American --> Bisexual actor. Crossing them over serves no purpose. It is a terrible, terrible idea and I'm afraid people seem to be voting in favour of because they're loving the brilliant chewbacca defense it's had.~ZytheTalk to me! 02:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I swear, people aren't understanding this CfD at all! LGBT by nationality is still covered! I fear people perceive I'm attacking categorizing by nationality or by bisexuality but I'm actually trying to save the latter from becoming entirely useless. If bisexuality is subcategorised by nationality then everything else in all of Wikipedia must be.~ZytheTalk to me! 15:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Marvel actors

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 00:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Marvel actors (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete as nom. Category seems to be for actors in films based on Marvel Comics properties. Poorly titled, ambiguous description in the category itself. Seems to be another one of the many lame "comic book actor" categories created this year. Wish I could prove they're all by the same di- person.. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Muslim athletes

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 00:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Muslim athletes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete, Delete as Category:Sportspeople by religion was deleted.Bakaman 22:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Managers in Argentina by club

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The result of the debate was rename. Timrollpickering 00:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Managers in Argentina by club to Category:Football managers in Argentina by club
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Category:Sports teams in Phoenix, Arizona

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The result of the debate was rename. Timrollpickering 00:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Category:Sports in Phoenix, convention of Category:Sports in the United States by city. -- ProveIt (talk) 18:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Philadelphia Whites players

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The result of the debate was rename. Timrollpickering 00:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Philadelphia Whites players into Category:Philadelphia White Stockings players
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Category:Very Important Persons

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The result of the discussion was: deleted per author request and unanimous opinion here. -- nae'blis 18:22, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Blatant POV--Gkklein 16:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I created the category, please explain why irrelevant. King of Anonymity 17:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How do you define a 'very important person'? It is impossible to define this without mnaking some kind of subjective decision as to who and who should not be considered 'very important'. Proto::► 17:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Fooian films

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The result of the debate was split/rename per revised nom. Can someone in the know perform the split? Timrollpickering 01:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wisconsin films to Category:Films set in Wisconsin and Category:Films shot in Wisconsin
Category:Idaho films to Category:Films set in Idaho and Category:Films shot in Idaho
Category:Films featuring Brighton, UK to Category:Films set in Brighton, UK Category:Films set in Brighton and Category:Films shot in Brighton, UK Category:Films shot in Brighton modified nom per comment below. Otto4711 19:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Montana films to Category:Films set in Montana and category:Films shot in Montana
  • Split and Rename - these are the only sub-cats of Category:Films by location with a "Fooian films" name. If "Films set in Foo" and "Films shot in Foo" are the prefereable constructions then the cats should be split and named appropriately. Of course if a combined "Foo films" is preferable then all the others need to be nominated and renamed. Otto4711 15:52, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Split and rename, per nom. I created Category:Films by location and it seems like a reasonable thing to do. -- ProveIt (talk) 16:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to I don't see a need for "Films shot in...": Many Hollywood pictures, especially the more recent ones, are filmed in a variety of locations to take advantage of tax credits and other arts incentives—and for that matter to avoid some of the taxes and regulations imposed by the City of Los Angeles. As proposed the categories are open-ended; no distinction is drawn between a scene filmed in half a day and an entire feature filmed over a year, but at the same time any line drawn between the two is surely to be arbitrary. To draw a comparison, we wouldn't call the DC-10-40 an "Aircraft manufactured in Connecticut" on account of its Pratt & Whitney engines; on the other hand, we don't have Category:Aircraft manufactured in California either because the mere fact that both the DC-10 and the F-117 Nighthawk have this characteristic implies no natural relationship between them. To reverse the perspective, I can see how a film or films may have some importance to the identity of a place, the way a local newspaper does; however, in most such cases the setting will no doubt take precedence over the actual shooting, leaving the "Films shot in" category to be redundant. If the film is only loosely identified with its location, we have a clear-cut case of overcategorization—grouping articles about things loosely associated based on the circumstances of their creation, at the sub-national level of granularity. The cases where "the movie is set in X but everybody knows it was shot in Y" are going to have even less in common with each other, and while I'm no film geek, I have to think that by that point we are truly at the level of trivia. -choster 22:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename as per Choster, but the Brighton one should simply be to Category:Films set in Brighton, partly to avoid abbreviation, and partly because the article on that city is at Brighton. Grutness...wha? 00:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Split and Rename per existing convention with Grutness' caveat, TewfikTalk 07:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Split and rename. Just makes sense. Plus it matches the convention used for other states. --Woohookitty(meow) 08:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Split & rename per nom & convention. Her Pegship (tis herself) 17:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename certainly but not sure about splitting out "shot-in" vs. de-catting those. As Choster points out, a film may be shot in multiple locations and be set in none of them (and vice versa!) which could lead to multiple "Films shot in..." for a film. Then there's always the intersection: Films set in x but shot in y!--RCEberwein | Talk 17:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on "shot it" categories. I see the point of the objection but I think it can be made clear that the cats are for films primarily shot in Foo as opposed to films shot in Hollywood with a couple of days of location Foo shooting. Otto4711 19:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Victoria'a Secret models

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 00:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, as a repost of Category:Victoria's Secret models, see June 9th discussion. -- ProveIt (talk) 13:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment At one point (June 15, 2006) Cindy Crawford belonged to well over 100 categories, the most in all of Wikipedia. -- ProveIt (talk) 16:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Nathanian 20:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • STRONG KEEP Procedurally, we are suppose to delete as before. However, previously, the category was lumped in with 100 other model categories that were deleted and this one was brought down by many lesser categories including the nominated one Category:Omega models although it is hard to determine where to draw the line with prestigious brand lines such as Omega_Watches. If Cindy Crawford had only had 2 or 3 premier modelling company categories listed, this would have survived. It is one of the most prestigious modelling affiliations (along with Sports Illustrated). Both of these two are hugh marketting phenomena. Most of the other 100 are just that, other companies. It has its own annual Television show and its own mail order catalogue. It is very different from most of the other 100. TonyTheTiger 01:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment In addition to keeping, all women listed on this notable list of VS models should be added to the category. P.S. a few other model categories got thrown out with the bathwater in the prior debate. I believe Calvin Klein, Guess Jeans and Polo models are nearly on par with VS and Sports Illustrated. However, since they don't have calendars, catalogues, or TV shows they are harder to distinguish. TonyTheTiger 02:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Soap Opera characters

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The result of the debate was merge. Timrollpickering 00:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge / Redirect into Category:Soap opera characters. I think a redirect is needed in this case. -- ProveIt (talk) 13:12, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Vanity Fair's International Best Dressed List for 2006

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 00:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as copyrighted published list. -- ProveIt (talk) 13:03, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Brahe

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The result of the debate was nomination withdrawn by proposer. Timrollpickering 21:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Brahe (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Keep The two families are not unrelated. When Scania was ceded from Denmark to Sweden in 1658, one part of the family stayed and became part of the Swedish nobility. The other left for Denmark and remained part of Danish nobility. In the 19th century, the Reventlow and Moltke families broke into Danish and German fractions pretty much the same way. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 14:35, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just realised that I made a slight error. The branch settling in Funen (modern Denmark) did so a few decades before the war that transferred Scania to Sweden. My error. This topic is a bit tricky. The Store Danske Encyklopædi describes them as one family. The Swedish Wikipedia as two. I don't have a login to the Swedish encyclopedia, Nationalencyklopedin, but their article begins with "Brahe, an originally Hallandian noble family, first documented with certainty from Peder Brade (d. 1390), by four [male] generations the ancestor of Niels Brade (d. 1529 executed for supporting Christian II) and his cousin Rigsraad member Axel Brade (d. 1551)." ... It seems to me like both the Danish and Swedish encyclopedias untimately consider them to be one family, but I could be wrong. I can't promise to do it in the coming days, but the Swedish Wikipedia has more information - most importantly about the Swedish line - so I'll try to translate it and incorporate material from the SDE. Anyway, according to the SDE the ancestors of the two branches were brothers. At first glance it looks like the family both had times when the two branches cooperated and when they didn't. I still think the category should stay, but I'm in two minds regarding the name. But if you go back long enough it definitely is the same family. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 19:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:History of Methodism in the United States

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The result of the debate was no consensus. Timrollpickering 00:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:History of Methodism in the United States (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Delete - This category is an ad hoc category encompassing articles on people and articles on various denominations of Methodism. This category fails to organize articles in any useful manner, and the designation of what or who is historical may be vaguely applied. The category should be deleted. Dr. Submillimeter 12:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree. There are plenty of articles about the History of Methodism in the U.S.A.! There are being categorized properly, just as are those about the History of Catholicism or any other religion. No, not all articles about Methodism are about its history (so should thusly NOT be included in this cat, but instead in the cat Methodism, as they properly are). But for those articles (and possibly subcats) having direct relation to the history of Methodism in the U.S.A., this is an altogether appropriate and helpful, even needed, cat. Thanks. Pastorwayne 15:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Family Guy actors, Category:The X-Files actors, Category:Murder, She Wrote actors

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The result of the debate was no consensus to delete. Rename per nom. Can those in the know prune them down? Timrollpickering 00:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

These presently contain every actor that has appeared in a single episode. That's quite a lot, and not a defining characteristic. Per the standards, we should rename those categories to "cast members", and prune the excess. >Radiant< 11:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Radiant! proposed a rename, and I said delete is better than renaming. --Samuel Wantman 10:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  1. Deleting these three cats is over kill. They serve a purpose, if limited to recurring cast, This is supported by the nom with "Rename and prune". No Zythe, this isn't the IMDB, but the recurring cast is important to the shows. The cat facilitates that link.
  2. The Batman salting is a very, very bad example. The reason that happened is that the cat was being used to lump all actors that participated in any way, in any television show, movie, or video game. That isn't the case here, nor for most of these types of cats.
— J Greb 12:06, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Schools in the MEC sports conference

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The result of the debate was listify. Timrollpickering 01:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Schools in the MEC sports conference (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Over categorization. Maybe as a list. Also it is more of an article rather then a category. Vegaswikian 07:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Video game covers

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The result of the debate was rename. Timrollpickering 01:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Video game covers

Rename to Category:Computer and video game covers to match naming conventions. -Sean Curtin 07:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Video game mascots

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The result of the debate was rename. Timrollpickering 01:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Video game mascots

Rename to Category:Computer and video game mascots to match naming conventions. -Sean Curtin 07:35, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Computer game design

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The result of the debate was rename. Timrollpickering 01:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Computer game design

Rename to Category:Computer and video game design to match naming conventions. -Sean Curtin 06:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:People with Poland Syndrome

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 01:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People with Poland Syndrome (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Poland syndrome is a rare congenital defect. There is only one entry in this category, and I see no growth potential beyond that. szyslak (t, c, e) 06:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:American people with disabilities

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The result of the debate was no consensus to delete. Rename per nom.. Timrollpickering 01:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:American people with disabilities to Category:Americans with disabilities
  • Rename. The term "American people" is unnecessarily wordy, when "Americans" alone will do. I wonder if the phrasing of the current title is based on a literal reading of "person-first language", in which some variant of "person" or "people" must appear no matter what, even if it's unnecessary. szyslak (t, c, e) 06:23, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete altogether. Characterizing individuals by disabilities is inappropriate and not as neatly defined as one might think. How many senior citizens have handicapped license plates? Does Paul Newman have one? Do we even know? He is old now, after all. Define "disability". Do we include Tom Cruise and Cher because they're dyslexic? Doczilla 07:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's why we have subcats, to specify which particular "disability" the people in question have. It is not useful to just say someone "has a disability", but more people would argue we should say Tom Cruise is dyslexic, or George Lucas is diabetic, or Max Cleland is an amputee. Though there are a few individual articles in this cat, I think they should be recategorized or removed from this category. szyslak (t, c, e) 11:34, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Diabetes is a disability? Almost everyone has some physical problem. How about arthritis? How about severe allergies? 75.10.32.110 19:03, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Christian" and "bisexual" are more clearcut terms than "disabilities". There's wiggle room in both, yes, but not like with disabilties. Those can be restricted to self-affirmed Christians and self-affirmed bisexuals. Diabilities, though . . . not so clear. Again, why include diabetes? Why not dyslexia? Or why dyslexia? It's a difference, not necessarily a disability. Who gets to judge? Doczilla 09:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
They're only somewhat more clearcut and I wouldn't include diabetes myself. Still that there are areas at the fringes where things get debatable doesn't negate the fact there are disabilities. I don't think of myself as disabled, but I'm not unaware that using a wheelchair and having brittle bones means I need extra aids. I am disabled for all legal or medical purposes. Sometimes I think people here make things more difficult than they need to be just so they can make a point.--T. Anthony 21:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Black Ice Hockey Players

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 01:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, or at least Rename to Category:Black ice hockey players. If kept, we should create Category:Ice hockey players by ethnicity. -- ProveIt (talk) 04:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Although rename is also good.--T. Anthony 21:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and rename as Category:African American hockey players for consistency. TonyTheTiger 01:48, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I almost said that myself, but some of the names here are Canadians. Would "African American" still work?--T. Anthony 02:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No. See Category:Black Canadians -- ProveIt (talk) 06:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Administrators open to recall‎

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Probably the longest discussion I've yet closed but there are more keeps than deletes so keep. Timrollpickering 01:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Actively unhelpful to the encyclopedia. Hipocrite - «Talk» 03:57, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

past recall requests (for those who are interested.--Kchase T 22:23, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Second nom. First nom - crz crztalk 04:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
For more history (which I eventually tracked down and found very helpful), see a previous (successful) recall (followed by a successful re-RfA two months later. Have there been many/any other recalls? Carcharoth 20:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Also, note the discussion at Category_talk:Administrators_open_to_recall and the archive page at Category_talk:Administrators_open_to_recall/Archive_1 - these pages should be moved and kept somewhere, even if the category is not kept. Also, the record of this category surviving the previous CfD nomination should be copied from the talk page archive to the front talk page. Carcharoth 20:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
From the above, and the below, I have found at least four examples of admin recall in one form or another: Silsor, Crzrussian, Bunchofgrapes, Friday. Any more? Carcharoth 20:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not everyone considers Silsor an example under this category, though as there wasn't a recall petition I don't think (glad to be corrected as I collect the links to them!). But the mechanics of how the re-RfA went are interesting. We have had other re-RfAs of course... Sean Black stood down then stood up again, for example. ++Lar: t/c 22:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Merovingian had an abortive appeal by Hipocrite back in July. -- nae'blis 18:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Trolling is not the primary problem with the category; administrators in the category trying to lord it over those who are not is. The category sets up a situation in which administrators in the category are perceived as more "accountable to the community", as your own choice of words demonstrates, regardless of whether they actually are or not. That artificial arrangement is unnecessarily contentious and divisive; the project already adequately provides for administrator accountability, WP:RFC and WP:RFAR, and this category adds one more unnecessary layer. FeloniousMonk 06:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that there are far more sides to this issue than just trolling. When I addressed the trolling issue, I was primarily responding to nominator Hipocrite's points. Anyway... CAT:AOR is neither contentious nor divisive. Personally, I think it's fine for an admin not to be open for recall. It's purely a matter of choice. And I agree with you that our existing dispute resolution processes are adequate for dealing with truly bad sysops, as rare as such cases may be. However, I'll have to disagree with your statement that admins in CAT:AOR have any interest in "lording over" those who aren't. Let's not attribute ulterior motives where none are warranted. szyslak (t, c, e) 07:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and FM. The original proposal was bad, this is also disruptive. All admins are subject to community comment (via RFC). Whether the subject of an admin conduct RFC chooses to ignore the input, try to improve, or voluntarily request that their sysop flag be removed is their decision. Adding yourself to a category like this is nothing but false showiness. Anyone who uses admin powers will get lots of feedback on their actions if they do anything that other editors see as misuse of those powers. Does membership in this category mean that you will only listen to feedback from people who go through the "recall" procedure, and not to your fellow editors when they don't get the 6 required signatures (or whatever the system ended up as)? Guettarda 07:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and FM. Divisive. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. The category's usage implies to me that those who choose to place themselves in this category think that those who don't see themselves as being above the law, as it were. -Sean Curtin 07:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The cat is disruptive nonsense, a fact that is not mitigated by its voluntary nature. As noted above, a mechanism already exists for resolving any issues that might arise with admins. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 07:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep existing constraints on administrator action are not, IMHO, sufficient. And this category is a useful antidote. No evidence has been presented of either disruptive abuse or use to belittle those who avoid it. Eluchil404 10:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. There may be benefit in some community-based deopping process, although I have yet to see a proposal that isn't all-too-easily abused by axe-grinders, trolls and troubleseekers. This category doesn't help. Additionally, the way it is worded it is meaningless, since an admin in this cat can still (by its wording) choose to ignore any and all motions for any kind of reason. >Radiant< 10:39, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, I wouldn't want to be a part of it, mostly because I am a thick-skinned son-of-a-bitch, however it's less of a trouble ousting Rouge ops who are in the category, than going to ArbCom. Also, it is not the trolls who have a say in the process, but six administrators who think the administrator did not do his job nicely. — Nearly Headless Nick 10:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm inclined to keep it, so long as a decent numbers of admins choose to be a part of it. If one wants not to be in the category, one simply need not add themself into it. Luna Santin 10:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - it's voluntary. Saying it's divisive may indicate a guilty conscience. If someone wants to make himself actively accountable, why not let them? That doesn't make any sense. Note that nominator once tried to recall someone even. Over an AfD vote. Milto LOL pia 12:52, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Nobody's forcing sysops to put themselves in the category. Proto::► 13:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete attempt to create a "POV fork" of rejected admin recall policy attempt per FeloniousMonk. And the Crzyrussian recall drama was unnecessary and pointless. If an admin wants to resign on their own initiative or at someone else's request, they can do it without the kabuki dance [2] (or not: [3] after the arb case kept moving anyway). 67.117.130.181 13:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Felonious Monk; further, the text of the category must be constantly policed to be sure that it isn't incrementally made less voluntary. I believe that the category is confusing to newcomers interested in adminship, and it is producing peer pressure to join. It has come up at some RFAs. There should not be two sets of rules, and the consensus of the project is that de-adminship matters should be addressed by the arbcom. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 14:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as we keep other user categories. Nobody forces anyone there, either; and I don't see how a cat containing just ~10% of the admins would create pressure. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 15:23, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom, FeloniousMonk. Jayjg (talk) 15:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. This category and its associated process are voluntary. Admins decide whether to join, how to set their renomination criteria, and what to do when those criteria are met. My own preference is actually for all admins to be subject to recall: not by ArbCom, but by the community which granted them their tools. Accountability requires not merely that admins earn the trust of the community, but that they keep it. Pending a more universal mechanism, though, this category is a useful experiment in community-based recall, as well as an admirable display of respect and openness on the part of its members. I commend them. Tim Smith 17:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as before. Nothing has changed since last time, except that we have another new recall under way, one that, if we can judge from the outcome of the two previous attempts, will be a harmonious process, unlike some other things around here. I admit bias, I'm clerking it, as I have twice before, so of course I think this category works and works well, for those that choose to voluntarily be in it. I continue to oppose making it mandatory although I understand not all agree, just as I oppose not allowing admins to organise themselves this way. If the category is deleted I will nevertheless continue to consider myself subject to recall, and will nevertheless continue to list my criteria for doing so on my user page. I think there is more divisiveness at this point from trying to agitate against admins voluntarily being accountable, than there is from admins voluntarily being accountable. Note further that this category got me an oppose in the steward election... well so be it. ++Lar: t/c 18:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment No problem with your putting something like that on your user page, or your removing it from your user page later if you change your mind. People who add themselves to this category and then remove themselves later are likely to be in for grief, especially if they claimed during their RFA candidacy that they add themselves (and they do sometimes get asked point-blank at RFA whether they'll add themselves). Anyway, judging from recent arb cases, arbcom is getting a lot quicker on the desysopping trigger than they were in older cases. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know. I do remember that Karynn even ran for arb on the platform of promising a desysopping spree. 67.117.130.181 23:35, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. People can put themselves in it if they want, and how to handle any petitions they get is entirely up to them. However, efforts to precisely specify the rules and procedures for dealing with recalls, in general, should be met with the strictest of opposition. I think I'll go edit the category a bit right now, in fact. -- SCZenz 19:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, the suggestions that this are "divisive" seem to be lacking in evidence and should be ignored. So far, it's barely been used, the two closed recalls went just fine, and the open one is just the same shambles that we'd have had if the *cough* litigants *cough* had raised an RfC. Heck, if we want to delete something "divisive" that's it right there. So, yeah, here "divisive" is a code word for "I don't like it" and the people using that code should really be brave enough to just say it right out. - brenneman 00:22, 29 December 2006 (UTC) I'm not going to write <keep|delete> in bold, figure it out yourself, closer man, this isn't a vote.[reply]
  • It's definitely divisive since it's used as an RFA question which affects people's votes, and some candidates probably answer "yes" in the hope of gaining more support even if they have reservations inside. The whole point of any RFA question is to be divisive (i.e. to help refine the division of participants into supporters and opposers). What's at issue is whether this question is appropriately divisive, given that it's used in that context. Also, "it's a free encyclopedia" doesn't remotely mean that every type of conduct and content within the encyclopedia is ok. Szyszlak should know better than to think users are entitled to create any categories that they like. This kind of info belongs purely in userspace if anywhere at all, similar to political userboxes. 67.117.130.181 03:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • By "it's a free encyclopedia", I mean we should respect the choices of administrators who make themselves open for recall and those who don't. I didn't intend to suggest I tolerate "every type of conduct and content within the encyclopedia". But I do think people on both sides of this issue should, well, agree to disagree. Neither side is causing irreparable harm to the encyclopedia. (By the way, I hate political userboxes.) szyslak (t, c) 06:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Because it's voluntary. (You know something is wrong when you're giving the same reason as someone else but a different !vote...) Either all admins should be up for recall, or none. Everyone is accountable to the community, recall is just adding another way for the community to hold admins accountable. Procedure should be the same for everyone, and procedure is that if you want an admin desysopped, you take it to ArbCom. --Tango 13:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep because I see no harm in it, and I've never seen the slightest coersion by anyone to get an admin to "sign up". --Fang Aili talk 14:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep this is useful to the management of the encyclopedia.-- danntm T C 15:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I can't really see anything bad in this. Trolls always find a way to misuse any kind of rules, guidelines or recall systems, that doesn't mean that these rules, guidelines and recall systems are bad. --Conti|✉ 16:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. It doesn't do what it's supposed to do and it is an absolute trolls' charter. We need to come up with a better idea. Guy (Help!) 17:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who cares? It's not Wikipedia policy. If admins want to subject themselves to this, that's their own business; and it's completely up to the admin to abide by, or not abide by, any result of any such recall. The only real argument for deletion is that it gives the false impression that it is Wikipedia policy, and encourages people to waste time. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. The opinions of some people on this are, of course, perfectly valid. But this is a volunteer catagory. And as a matter of fact, many of us keep voters feel very much that the admins in this category are far more accessible , open to comment, and cognizent of their position being one of the use of tools rather than some sort of upper class of user than, say, some who aren't in this category. It's a matter of trust for me. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 17:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, pending any evidence that it is a "troll's charter". I'm seeing a lot of unverified assumptions about how this could/should/would work. Of the three four instances I'm aware of it being used, one (the first) resulted in a immediate self-desysop and later landslide re-sysoping, two failed to achieve majority, and the other was withdrawn without drawing a single supporter. I'm not seeing the problem here, and if anything the "lording it over" has lessened, not worsened, since the first CFD. Like the Mediation Cabal, this is a voluntary, informal, alternative to some of our drama-laden and process-heavy procedures here at Wikipedia. -- nae'blis 18:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, the system is voluntary and works as it should. Also note that WP:UCFD is a more appropriate place for this listing. —CComMack (t–c) 19:22, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. Does this really need to be nominated every few months? The admins in this category volunteered to place themselves in the category. I'm not sure who really thinks the admins in this category are "lording it over" others, but I think that's the product of imagination. As Nae'blis says, this is a voluntary, informal alternative to the often overly dramatic desysopping processes; I'm not sure what is divisive about less drama, and I have found the category entirely helpful on a personal basis. Firsfron of Ronchester 20:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral, it doesn't seem to be hurting anything should Wikipedia:Admin recall ever go live. Although as it is currently {{rejected}} this category doesn't appear to be serving any use. — xaosflux Talk 21:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I suspect you may be confused, xaos. CAT:AOR isn't (now, not sure about originally) related to any of the failed mandatory recall/de-adminning proposals. It has no Wikipedia: page, just the description on the category itself (and of course discussion on the cat's talk page). By design it's extremely lightweight and informal. -- nae'blis 22:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not confused, that is acutaull my point--this appears to be a user category for something we have no process and/or policy for; although it also appears to be attempting to be a project page by giving editor directions in the "process" section. I'm not for against the concept of admin recall right now, but there should be a project page to back up this category, and if the community has rejected the concept then there is a diminishing value in the category. — xaosflux Talk 18:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - No one (editors, admins or others) should need to join any group or category to establish trust with the community. Ideas like this mean well, but eventually they simply divide people to the detriment of the project. --InkSplotch 00:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Rebecca 04:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete borderline nonsensical -- Drini 06:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. If kept does this belong in the main encylopedia name space? This seems to be user related and not encylopedia related. Vegaswikian 06:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Admins should be open to recall but this is too silly to be tolerated. Grace Note 09:07, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Since there is no associated Wikipedia project page, there are technically no standards, no system under which such a things should work. This means that not only is being in the category voluntary, but how one interprets being in the category could be subjective to each person. Also, this category is more than indicating that the included member supports such a thing, but that they are applying some form of it to themself. If this was just a "supports" category I may have said "Keep", but in its current form, it just has too many problems. - jc37 12:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - It is my firm belief that the single greatest problem facing Wikipedia is the lack of admin accountability to the community. It has caused an obvious and growing rift between the community as a whole and the admins who are supposed to represent them. Over and over again it has resulted in massive disruptions and the loss of good contributors on both 'sides'. Only by making admins accountable to the community they are supposed to represent can these problems be solved. This category is presently the only way of supporting that belief. As a representative of the community, chosen BY the community and supposedly acting with their trust, I would feel like I was acting improperly if I weren't answerable to the community for my actions. --CBD 13:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - It's a totally pointless waste of time and space. There are no hard and fast rules to protect a good admin from suffering a recall petition and to protect the community from a bad admin. There's no impartiality when the admin gets to decide which voters are in good standing and it's grossly unfair when there's no mention of needing a majority or clear consensus. As with Friday's recent recall, there was sizeable opposition to the recall but the hardy band who wanted the recall to go ahead persisted citing the "six users in good standing" which is just plain wrong but they did have a valid point, Friday had enough support on his recall petition to pass any RfA so how can a recall possibly be considered in those circumstances. I'd like to see a consensus with a rough 75% support for the recall being brought in and any user blocked by the admin in question barred from making any !votes or comments to the recall. There's no mention of petitioning or canvassing for votes either, so it has all the hallmarks of being another classic piece of ill thought out WP policy. If there was to be discussion with a view to introducing hard and fast rules which would give protection to admins and enshrine the idea of a consensus being required, then I'd keep, but at the moment it goes against the whole idea of consensus building and is so open to trolling and it's not beneficial to Wikipedia. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 13:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and discuss further - I don't think it is ideal in its current form. I personally would support a system where admins voluntarily put themselves up for re-approval at set intervals, but do this by re-opening their RfA (actually, making a copy of it would be better) and notifying those who voted previously (who could change or re-confirm their vote) and allowing new votes to be added. This would indicate how much support has changed for that admin, if at all. Being open to recall doesn't address the problem of admins who are on the borderline of causing enough concern for recall, but not being quite disruptive enough. Re-election would ensure that admins are representative of the community. Of course, if the community make-up changes drastically in a bad way, that could be a bad thing. Maybe having admins who are 'out of touch' is no bad thing until the community make-up improves again after the latest batch of users moves on to other things. Difficult, but I think this voluntary, one-size-doesn't-fit-all approach is the best we have at the moment. Carcharoth 15:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Guettarda on the mailing list. [4]. The more I thinkk about it, the more I think any admin who wants to do this in any way other than what we have simply has to restand every year or so. RFC and Arbitration should work to catch admins who are abusing the tools. I appreciate the ideals that went into creating this, hell I even discussed them and stood in the category, but I just don't think it works. It's messy, it's subjective and it seems to be creating disruption and factions. I guess to me, the encyclopedia is more important. I am always open to recall, whether I stand in this category or not. Hiding Talk 17:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep as an admin who is in the category, and per my comments in the last CfD. Regardless of the outcome, I will continue to call myself an "admin open to recall". It is entirely voluntary, and doesn't harm Wikipedia as a whole. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 05:43, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This plainly is a back-door display of advocacy for a process that's been rejected for the present. If there's agreed to be a genuine need for recall, it should be dealt with directly and re-consensused accordingly. ... Kenosis 17:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Useful category, is voluntary. If you don't like it, don't put yourself in it. Obviously many admins consider it useful and appropriate judging by the number who have placed themselves in it. This CFD is harmful to the encylopaedia by wasting editors' time. Original nominator is supposedly on a long wikibreak anyhow. -THB 23:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Days of our Lives characters

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was merge. Timrollpickering 01:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge both into Category:Days of our Lives characters, current / former. -- ProveIt (talk) 03:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree - it is the most reasonable thing to do, especially since they recur all the time. Tuviya 05:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

Fictional misanthropic character categories

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The result of the debate was listify and delete. Timrollpickering 01:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fictional misanthropes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:Fictional human misanthropes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete. Category is not specific enough and requires much POV invocation. You might also listify because a list can be properly annotated with external links sourcing when each character was identified as a misanthrope. When a category includes everything from the Cylons' determination to wipe out the human race to Moe's surly attitude on The Simpsons, the category is excessively broad. Doczilla 01:52, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've started a list, but I'm not finished. User:DrBat/List of fictional characters who are opposed to humanity --DrBat 21:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
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