Talk:Thiyya

Untitled

How do you differentiate an Ezhava from a Paniyan> Both are having different wiki article.. But I can find many similarities between Ezhavas and Paniyas. Both are dark skinned, Both are backward, Both are tribal originated etc.. blah blah.. will you keep both in same page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.1.35 (talk) 19:36, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Then I can show you proofs.

Paid agents of SNDP has redirected Thiyya wiky page to Ezhava. They have no right to do so. Ezhava caste chauvinism.

For those still want a proof that Tiyyar/Thiyyar was a separate caste, please refer the following links:

Caste and Territory in Malabar by ERIC J. MILLER http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/aa.1954.56.3.02a00100/pdf

Castes-and-Tribes-of-Southern-India-Vol-7 by Thurston, Edgar : Page: 37 - 122

@Sitush, You are requested to restore the page back and remove the redirect link.

@Wikipedia admins, Please make sure that this page is restored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.54.234 (talk) 19:25, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Its must that Thiyya and Ezhava should be seen separate.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.191.221.72 (talk) 06:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

<quote>``Thiyyas of Malabar are the descendants of this group of Kyrgyz, asserts T. Damu book `Lanka Parvam'. </quote>

That's writer's "BHAVANA". Can you proove that?

<quote> Caucasian anatomy </quote>

If at all true, it's because of the race mixing that happened in Malabar. You can claim of Portugese, Dutch, French origins.

Yes, it’s true that Thiyyas of Malabar were from Kyrgyz and they were called “Thiyyas” because they were people who were settled in the foothills of “Tian Mountains” which is in the southern side of Kyrgyzstan. Any one can easily make out the difference between Ezhavas (Non Malabar Thiyyas) and the Thiyyas of Malabar. Thiyyas of Malabar are very fair in complection, have sharp facial features and broad bone structure which are not “Dravidian” features and hence they could not be of Sri Lanka origin. Non Malabar Thiyyas must have come from Sri Lanka and their “Dravidian” features support it. The only reason for this confusion is because community names are so similar, another fact which favored the same was that both of these communities followed the great social reformer Sri Narayana Guru and got a common community name atlast.

---

excuse me ... I know many thiyyas who are dark skinned and look like dravidians.. I have Thiyya relatives. I agree that more % of thiyyas are fair skinned. some with blue/green eye.. This is more predominant in thalaserry and it's because of the race mixing between the foriegners and the local people. You can see the same with malabar Nairs too. are you running away from Dravidian origin? There is not Nair in Malabar. Are you mad? Only Nambiars are there which is considered same status with Thiyyar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.54.234 (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The reason

The reason why many thiyyas in the north malabar have fairer complexion is not due to an outside ethnic background, but due to concubinage relationships with Nayars and Varmas in the past. In fact the Raja of Cannanore was renouned for having relationships with thiyya servants, however the children born from such relationships did not have the rights of inheritance, and were not considered to be the children of the higher caste individuals. This is the same reason why many Nayars have a fair complexion, it is due to mixing with Namboothiri brahmins, however these relationships were known as Sambandhams and was a casual form of marriage, and the children of these relationships had the right to call the namboothiri his father, but did not have the rights of inheritance. in relation to "dravidian" features, there is not a single person in kerala who does not have a dravidian ancestor, and there are very few who do not have a tinge of "aryan" (namboothiri) features. in the past before caste systems became solid, namboothiris (thought to be pure aryan) sired children with native women who were accepted as namboothiris. this is why namboothiris, although they are very fair, can also show dark skinned features. through sambandham with nairs and from them, concubinage with thiyyas and then in turn other extramarital relationships with vishwakarmas, etc. not to mention a whole host of other races added to the mix, you see the broad spectrum of color in kerala society. its not as easy as classifying as dravidian/aryan, but there is also australoid, some mongoloid and other influences over the ages (contact with romans, israelites, etc.) Kshatriya knight 22:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Suhruthe - pls dont purify the nair-nambuthithiri Sexual relationship by calling it marriage or Sambandham.. It's nothing but prostituition.. If you are not aware, the Nair lady had to have sexual relationship with local Nambuthiri before she is married to a Nair. We never had such an ugly relationship. And it's not true that thiyyas had any concubinage relationship with Varmas or Nair. The Varmas or Nairs never had blue eyes.. We feel proud for not accepting Hinduism in the early years.

Please sign your comments. Yes Nambuthris had relationship first with Nayar girl before she could marry, but it was not prostitution, nor concubinage. Prostitutes sell their body for money, concubines are financially dependant upon others. This was not the case with Nayar women. Sambandhams and these relationships were to help secure political support/power, as Nambuthris and Nayars, who were the main wealthy people in the past, could form interconnections and interrelationships, which could come in handy during times of political upheaval, or for land trading, etc. Secondly thiyyas did have relationships with Nayars and Varmas, though not as frequently as Nayar/Nambuthri. And about the blue eyes? I have seen Nambuthris, Nayars, Thiyyas and people from Scheduled Castes with blue and green eyes. The out of India theory for Thiyyas is worth having a look into, but it doesn't seem viable. North Kerala people on average are lighter than their South Kerala counterparts, regardless of caste. I know many dark skinned Thiyyas with Dravidian features, how can that happen if Thiyyas had nothing to do with Ezhavas and were of a distinct race? Kshatriya Grandmaster 10:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all the nampoothiris are mostly dark in complexion & short in stature which even puts their aryan background into question. The north indian brahmins follow the vedas whereas the nampoothiris follow adi mimamsa which are rituals prior to the scripting of the vedas.Hence, the nampoothiris are in no way so called aryan (Aryan race itself is a myth)race & where never fair in complexion. Secondly, prostitution refers to giving sexual favours in return of monetary benefit. In the olden times monetary benefit was in the form of land trading hence, Nair women let the nampoothiris to whet their sexual appetite in favour of monetary benefit in the form of getting land. Thus, most of the land which nairs are in possession today are because their men blindly accepted the sexual right of the nampoothiri over their women(Nair). The proof of this socially accepted prostitution of Nair women is evident from the fact that most of the Nairs are dark in complexion (result of nampoothiris dark complexion). In 1905 the Nair society took a step in the right direction when the youngsters in their community stood up against their women being deflowered for the first time by nampoothiri men & halted the practice of this socially accepted prostitution of nair women. If this practice was good then why did the nair society end it in 1905. The thiyyas always had their father to refer to which is why even today thiyyas are known either by the two initials (refering to their fathers & mothers tharavaad) or by their fathers name. Whereas the nairs since, they could not refer to their biological father (nampoothiri would never allow his name to be used by his illegitimate offsprings)had to resort to the use of the caste name Nair. The thiyya men of north malabar because of their numerical superiority & inherent pride of not accepting the diktats of the nampoothiris were notorious in maintaining sexual relations with nampoothiri women which occassionaly lead to Smarthavicharam. Many occassions the nampoothiri men would turn a blind eye to such relations as it would lead to dishonour to the family & could lead to altercation with the aggressiveThiyyas who were ever ready to physically take on the namboothiri. Sometimes Smarthavicharam lead to the nampoothiri women getting married to Thiyya men. Tharavaad like "Madathil" in Kannur is an example of such Thiyya men sexual conquest of nampoothiri women.--Yashkumar1970 (talk) 16:00, 19 June 2011 (UTC)--Yashkumar1970 (talk) 15:45, 19 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yashkumar1970 (talk • contribs) 15:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC) Yashkumar1970 (talk) 15:41, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Edits by 59.92.158.178

You may edit whatever way you want as long as others agree. But please don;t write statements you wrote in the Edit Summary (Ezhavas.. pls don't allign with with for glory). Ezhavas have enough glorious past to be proud of and need not allign with Thiyyas for that. I have a good info about thiyya thru my Thiyya relatives. If you are going by the history that Mr. Damu has written in his book, I would call it fatasy. Let thiyyas be a different caste /group of a different origin and culture. Why don't you provide some genuine information? This article revolves around Damu's book.

Other thiyyas - Sorry I had to write this.

Well other than those who are closely related to SNDP and the their temples ..none of us thiyyas do like to align ourselves with Ezhavas ..Even the SNDP leaders like Mr.Natesan have rightly said that these two are two different communites.. and Mr Pallathottath.. you come and stay in thiyya heartlands like Kannur.You will come to know how we ppl think..

Okay.. Agreed. Both are different communities. Why don't you write something meaningful? LANKAPARVAM is not a history text. I can assure you that I will never edit this article. Fyi, my father-in-law is from Kannur. User:Pallathottath

so sad to see this page ... pitty on the poor fello who want to trace his anccestry based on book wihich uses only imaginationand no facts

« Modernization catches up with Malayalees | Main  | Thanks Microsoft »

Book Review: Lankaparvam (Malayalam)

Lankaparvam by T. Damu, DC Books, 50 pages.

Recently the Malayalam book Lankaparvam was in the news for making the claim that Thiyyas were from Kyrgyzstan. Fascinated by this fact, I managed to get this book which is about the history of Sri Lanka.

The author of the book is T. Damu, who has published many novels, short stories and articles under the pen name T. D. Vadakkumbad. He has also worked as newspaper reporter and associate editor for various newspapers in India. Currently he is an officer in a big unnamed company, and it was on a business trip that he reached Sri Lanka.

The book consists of a total of 48 pages of which seven are color photographs, and can be finished within the commercial break time of That 70s Show. As the author starts on his flight from Thiruvanathapuram, he is reminded of the Hanuman's flight to the prosperous Lanka of Ravana and this Ramayana theme runs throughout the book as the author travels to places like Seetha Eliya, which has the only temple dedicated to Seetha.

The book also talks about the origin of the SriLankan people from a princess in Bengal, moves to the arrival of Buddhism, talks about the origin of Nairs and Ezhavas, and skips directly to the LTTE, all within about thirty pages. Even though the chapters seem to suggest historical progression, most of the contents are mythological stories. The author takes them seriously and presents them as facts even without expressing a bit of doubt.

So when he suggests that in a place called Nuvara Eliya, the soil is black in color because Ravanas palace was burned down by Hanuman here or that the presence of Asoka trees in some area suggests that Seetha was held by Ravana there, you know these are without any basis. Such stories are prevalent all around India too and you have to accept them for what they are --- legends.

The author says that Thiyyas are different from Ezhavas and for this he cites two stories. The first one says that that Lord Siva saw seven women taking a bath in a river and decided to get them. For this he made the place cold and convertedhimself to fire and when the women came to warm themselves near the fire, he gotall of them. The children born of that relationship are called Thiyyas since they were born from Thee (fire in Malayalam). The second story says that Lord Shiva wanted to booze and for getting someone to climb the coconut tree to get toddy, he created Thiyyas.

Once these, Intelligent Design, equivalent theories have been presented, the author kicks it up a notch and suggests that some people migrated from Kyrgyzstan in 7000 B.C to India. Since they were from Thiyyan mountain area (Tien Shan), they were called Thiyyas. According to him an ancient book from Finland called the Edda has a mention of Thiyyas, so it could be that Thiyyas were from Finland also.

This book does not provide a single reference for this theory or any research which confirms this theory. There is a Salem in Massachussets and does not mean that people living there are from Salem, Tamil Nadu. If you look at the world map, you can spot places and races many such similarities, but similarity in names is not sufficient to prove such migration theories. Who knows what Thiyya in Finnish means?

All these doubts did not prevent The Hindu from writing this, "The predominant Thiyya community of Malabar migrated to Kerala in 7000 BC from Kyrgyzstan in the erstwhile Soviet Union, says a fresh study revealing their disputed origins".After reading the book, I found there was no study mentioned. It was just a casual statement in the middle of a bunch of mythologies.

For all you know, Thiyyas might be from Kyrgyzstan. But unfortunately the context in which this information is presented and the lack of any reference makes me a skeptic.

Posted on August 20, 2005 11:05 PM | Permalin

The main issue is here that every one wants to be a caucasian decendent.As far as i am concerned it doesn't matter from where did your ancestors belong. I belong to thiyya community which was a 'avarna" caste and our caste were denied the public roads and many necessities of life earlier,and as far as sexual relatiopnship with brahmins and varma's are concerned the nair ladies were used to maximum. it happened because, only the eldest of brahmin brothers could marry at that time and the rest had sex with thier house maids and this is the reason why polyandri was prevalent in nair caste.now let me tell uyou that recent Genetic studies show that the allelic distribution of Ezhavas in a bi-dimensional plot (correspondence analysis based on HLA-A, -B, and -C frequencies) has a rather strong East Eurasian element due to its proximity to the Mongol population in the same plot..so there my be a link between thiiya"s and ezhavas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.242.192.179 (talk) 10:40, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 November 2012

Thiyya is a separate caste classified by the government of India. Please see http://www.ncbc.nic.in/Pdf/kerala.pdf

No. 21 is for Thiyya while Ezhava comes under No. 14.

Considering this facts, this page should be separately kept.

Pnranjith (talk) 10:53, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Not done: Your source lists Thiyya in the same group as Ezhava, which is where the redirect points now, so I don't think a separate page is warranted. If you disagree, however, you should bring the matter up on the talk page of the protecting administrator or at requests for unprotection, in that order. Let me know if you have any questions about the process. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 11:19, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Are you mad? Did you see Ezhava in No. 14 where Thiyya are listed in No. 21!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.230.50.69 (talk) 10:30, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 30 December 2012

Please restore the Thiyya wiki back. You can clearly see the page history and find the reason

117.206.1.35 (talk) 19:39, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:04, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Redirected to Ezhava

I have just redirected this article to Ezhava. There were protracted discussions in early 2013 regarding the validity of hosting a separate page for Thiyya, the outcome of which was that current sources do not justify it. The discussions can be see in Talk:Ezhava/Archive_5. - Sitush (talk) 14:22, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Is there any consensus to redirect. Can we try [WP:SOFTRDR] Since this article explains more about Thiyya, i think soft redirection is better solution irajeevwiki talk 01:35, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

The consensus to redirect lies in the Ezhava talk page archives linked above. The move of this draft into mainspace was a good-faith mistake made by a now-retired admin (see [here). In any event, Drmies has now protected this article in such a way that only an admin can move it, edit it or indeed reverse the protection. That was done more or less per my request at User talk:Martijn Hoekstra. - Sitush (talk) 07:27, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

• [threat redacted, Drmies (talk)]

“ An Izhuvan will eat rice cooked by a Tiyan, but a Tiyan will not eat rice cooked by an Izhuvan a circum- stance pointing to the inferiority of the Izhuvan. A Nayar, as well as a Tiyan, will partake of almost any form of food or drink, which is prepared even by a Mappilla (Malabar Muhammadan), who is deemed inferior to both. But the line is drawn at rice, which must be prepared by one of equal caste or class, or by a superior.

An Izhuvan, partaking of rice at a Tiyan's house, must eat it in a verandah ; he cannot do so in the house, as that would be defilement to the Tiyan. Not only must the Izhuvan eat the rice in the verandah, but he must wash the plates, and clean up the place where he has eaten. Again, an Izhuvan could have no objection to drinking from a Tiyan's well. Further, there is practically no mixture in the distribution of Tiyans and Izhuvans

The South Malabar Tiyan bridegroom, dressed as if for a wrestling match, with his cloth tied tight about his loins, carries a sword and shield, and is escorted by two companions similarly equipped, dancing their way along. The Izhuvan does not carry a sword under any circumstances.

The chief feature of his wedding ceremony is a singing match. This, called the vatil-tura-pattu, or open the door song, assumes the form of a contest between the parties of the bridegroom and bride.

The story of Krishna and his wife Rukmini is supposed to be alluded to. We have seen it all under slightly different colour at Conjeeveram. Krishna asks Rukmini to open the door, and admit him. She refuses, thinking he has been gallivanting with some other lady. He beseeches ; she refuses. He explains, and at length she yields. The song is more or less extem- pore, and each "side must be ready with an immediate answer. The side which is reduced to the extremity of having no answer is beaten and under ignominy.

Marriage is strictly forbidden between two persons belonging to the same illam. The bride and bridegroom must belong to different illams. In fact, the illams are exogamous.

The following formula is repeated by the headman of the bride's party. Translated as accurately as possible, it runs thus. "The tara and changati of both sides having met and consulted ; the astrologer having fixed an auspicious day after examining the star and porutham ; permission having been obtained from the tara, the relations, the illam and kulam, the father, uncle, and the brothers, and from the eight and four (twelve illams) and the six and four (ten kiriyams) ; the conji and adayalam ceremonies and the four tazhus having been performed, let me perform the kanjikudi ceremony for the marriage of .... The son of . . . . With .... Daughter of .... In the presence of muperium. ”

- Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Vol - 7)

by British museologist Edgar Thurston (1855-1935)

Thiyyas belongs to 8 illams,from which their orgin are believed to be from. Each and every thiyyan in malabar(also someparts of karnataka) belongs any of these 8 illams.

Ezhava,Mappilas,Chovan,Chon,PandyChon,Maravachon,Velankandi chon,Marvar-velan- Chozan,Vaaniya,Nair,Paraya,Pulaya did not have any illam as their origin .

Kadathanaadan Chekavar

---

---

Belongings to Haplogroup L. Indo-Aryan caucasian Class (Unlike ezhavas of haplogroup C australoids,Nairs of K and Namboothiris of H) from central Asian Thiyassa valley of Tia-Shan Mountain Ranges lying south of Russia to North Malabar. Genetic Marker for this group in general is KLM9/M20. Ancestors traveled through Rajasthan where the people who settled were known as sekovars. They were probably descendants of Rajputs,who later became fierce fighters and warriors. From there ,the group migrated through the sind province,Gujarat, Maharashtra , and to southern India. The thiyya group acquired warrior qualities, martial arts, and acrobatic talents from the ancestors living in the Thiyyas valley in Kyrgyzstan and the pamir plateau ( north-central Asia). These class of people were great warriors of ever. (Scientific DNA Studies on Thiyya published in the book ‘North Africa to North Malabar ’ ) Kadathanadan chekavar (talk) 06:35, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Admin pls stop redirecting to Ezhava Kadathanadan chekavar (talk) 06:36, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 21 January 2014

Thiyya is a seperate community not to be confused with ezhava. Kindly open a new page for Thiyya community exclusively. Nithinkuriyangara (talk) 17:40, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Oppose per responses to above requests for the same thing. Jackmcbarn (talk) 19:41, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:00, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 7 November 2016

Thiyya and ezhava are different

Proof is here :

“ An Izhuvan will eat rice cooked by a Tiyan, but a Tiyan will not eat rice cooked by an Izhuvan a circum- stance pointing to the inferiority of the Izhuvan. A Nayar, as well as a Tiyan, will partake of almost any form of food or drink, which is prepared even by a Mappilla (Malabar Muhammadan), who is deemed inferior to both. But the line is drawn at rice, which must be prepared by one of equal caste or class, or by a superior.

An Izhuvan, partaking of rice at a Tiyan's house, must eat it in a verandah ; he cannot do so in the house, as that would be defilement to the Tiyan. Not only must the Izhuvan eat the rice in the verandah, but he must wash the plates, and clean up the place where he has eaten. Again, an Izhuvan could have no objection to drinking from a Tiyan's well. Further, there is practically no mixture in the distribution of Tiyans and Izhuvans

The South Malabar Tiyan bridegroom, dressed as if for a wrestling match, with his cloth tied tight about his loins, carries a sword and shield, and is escorted by two companions similarly equipped, dancing their way along. The Izhuvan does not carry a sword under any circumstances.

The chief feature of his wedding ceremony is a singing match. This, called the vatil-tura-pattu, or open the door song, assumes the form of a contest between the parties of the bridegroom and bride.

The story of Krishna and his wife Rukmini is supposed to be alluded to. We have seen it all under slightly different colour at Conjeeveram. Krishna asks Rukmini to open the door, and admit him. She refuses, thinking he has been gallivanting with some other lady. He beseeches ; she refuses. He explains, and at length she yields. The song is more or less extem- pore, and each "side must be ready with an immediate answer. The side which is reduced to the extremity of having no answer is beaten and under ignominy.

Marriage is strictly forbidden between two persons belonging to the same illam. The bride and bridegroom must belong to different illams. In fact, the illams are exogamous.

The following formula is repeated by the headman of the bride's party. Translated as accurately as possible, it runs thus. "The tara and changati of both sides having met and consulted ; the astrologer having fixed an auspicious day after examining the star and porutham ; permission having been obtained from the tara, the relations, the illam and kulam, the father, uncle, and the brothers, and from the eight and four (twelve illams) and the six and four (ten kiriyams) ; the conji and adayalam ceremonies and the four tazhus having been performed, let me perform the kanjikudi ceremony for the marriage of .... The son of . . . . With .... Daughter of .... In the presence of muperium. ”

- Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Vol - 7)

by British museologist Edgar Thurston (1855-1935)

Thiyyas belongs to 8 illams,from which their orgin are believed to be from. Each and every thiyyan in malabar(also someparts of karnataka) belongs any of these 8 illams.

Ezhava,Mappilas,Chovan,Chon,PandyChon,Maravachon,Velankandi chon,Marvar-velan- Chozan,Vaaniya,Nair,Paraya,Pulaya did not have any illam as their origin .

Kadathanaadan Chekavar

---

---

Belongings to Haplogroup L. Indo-Aryan caucasian Class (Unlike ezhavas of haplogroup C australoids,Nairs of K and Namboothiris of H) from central Asian Thiyassa valley of Tia-Shan Mountain Ranges lying south of Russia to North Malabar. Genetic Marker for this group in general is KLM9/M20. Ancestors traveled through Rajasthan where the people who settled were known as sekovars. They were probably descendants of Rajputs,who later became fierce fighters and warriors. From there ,the group migrated through the sind province,Gujarat, Maharashtra , and to southern India. The thiyya group acquired warrior qualities, martial arts, and acrobatic talents from the ancestors living in the Thiyyas valley in Kyrgyzstan and the pamir plateau ( north-central Asia). These class of people were great warriors of ever. (Scientific DNA Studies on Thiyya published in the book ‘North Africa to North Malabar ’ )

Adhithya Kiran Chekavar (talk) 17:53, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:47, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 26 January 2017

Since Thiyya and Ezhava are different from its name itself remove the page from protected to semi-protected. We are planning to move legally against vandalism. please remove the site from protected Kadathanadan chekavar (talk) 17:59, 26 January 2017 (UTC)