Talk:Shakespeare authorship question

Anthony Munday's Sir Thomas More

According to this Wiki article Sir_Thomas_More_(play)#Evidence_for_Shakespeare.27s_contribution, a three-page section of this play by Anthony Munday has been identified as an authentic sample of stylistically Shakespearean material written in Shakespeare's handwriting, verified by comparison to Shakespeare's signatures. Does anybody know if this has been recognized as relevant to the SAQ, or would it be WP:SYNTH to say so? I would think it's important if not downright decisive, and it seems to have been known for years, but I've never seen it mentioned in this context. JerryRussell (talk) 16:31, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

SAQers don't recognize that the hand is Shakespeare's, saying that the known samples are too few for a valid comparison. There will never be a decisive piece of evidence that will satisfy authorship partisans; they're not really about the evidence in the same way that gambling addicts are not really about winning. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:35, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

OK, so everybody knows all about it except me. Do you think it belongs in the article, maybe prominently highlighted with its own section heading?

Do you know if anybody has compared the sample to other prominent candidates such as Oxford, Bacon, Marlowe and so forth? At least it might be possible to get rid of some other candidates by process of elimination. JerryRussell (talk) 19:40, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

No, it doesn't belong in the article because it's not a major contention by either side; and no, our job is not to get rid of other candidates, it's to report the past and current state of the field in a neutral manner. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:55, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

I wasn't meaning to ask for original research on our part, but I was curious about what's been said. Tom, I think you probably know the literature much better than I do, and I appreciate your expertise. JerryRussell (talk) 23:17, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

If you haven't seen it, though, I did find this one article by an Oxfordian, in which he turns it into a pro-Oxford argument. He says "no reputable modern expert would think of affirming Hand D as the maker of the six signatures with so small a sample of letters for comparison." 1 And on careful examination of the Wiki article I linked above, that seems to be the case; or at least, the article quotes a 1916 expert statement, and nothing more recent. But, the article also states that the handwriting is not Oxford's, either. JerryRussell (talk) 23:17, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

There are a plethora of modern articles and books about Hand D that convincingly (to most scholars, anyway) that it is Shakespeare's hand, but I know of no usable reliable sources that do so in order to rebut Oxfordian arguments, which is what would be necessary to include it on this page. I've seen that Oxfordian article before; to them, almost anything and everything halfway good was written by Oxford. He's become a comic book character with near-mystical powers to them. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:02, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

"Christopher Marlowe credited as one of Shakespeare's co-writers"

Article in the Guardian: [1]

I suspect this may prove controversial. Have fun... 86.164.200.28 (talk) 21:53, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Article on main page 23 April 2017

There is a notice in the header, but it is a bit hard to see, so those watching this page might like to know that the article will again feature on the main page. The old and new blurbs are:

• Wikipedia:Today's featured article/April 23, 2011
• Wikipedia:Today's featured article/April 23, 2017

It was six years ago, groan. Time flies! Johnuniq (talk) 05:03, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Really? I thought it was a ceaseless lackey to eternity. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 05:21, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Time's had, my lords, been walloped at his back,

Now you have salvaged charms from sure oblivion,

And thereby earned our lasting gratitude:

Those scraps we fought, all good deeds past, empowered

The article we have, forgotten is the loon

perseverance chased out, by your accord,

And wiki's honour's bright. To have done is to hang

About till fashion picks you up, and sends a mail

To reaffirm our rewrite of that crockery

was monumental.Nishidani (talk) 14:25, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

However

The word "however" is used to emphasise that a contrast is intended. It should generally not be used in encyclopedic writing as WP:NPOV is better fulfilled if we just state the facts and let the reader decide that it's a contrast. WP:EDITORIAL discusses it and there is also a short essay here. --John (talk) 11:01, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

I sympathize with the habit of searching for "however" in an article to see if it's necessary, but sometimes it really is the best way to convey the information. The four instances of it reinserted here all seem fine to me. None are editorializing; they simply make it clear to the reader that the point introduced is in contrast to the previous information. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:19, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Does that imply that the reader is otherwise incapable of seeing that there is a contrast? No, I'm still standing by the deletions. It's a stylistic issue but quite an important one, especially with four here on a TFA. --John (talk) 11:22, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Are there cases where you think "however" is allowable, or do you feel that WP:EDITORIAL implies it should always be removed? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:41, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Two of the removed instances (regarding the will and textual evidence) relate to evidence that the sources point out contradicts the anti-Stratfordian case. The implications are indeed supported by the sources, and a connection is made therein. They are therefore not doing any of the naughty things mentioned in WP:EDITORIAL, and seem unexceptionable to me. William Avery (talk) 12:07, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Arguments can be made for both sides but I think, given the history of the editing, where we were accused of subtly stacking the evidence against a fringe viewpoint, that John's call is correct. We should elide any phrasing that, 'however' innocently, might be read as nudging the reader towards a conclusion. Nishidani (talk) 16:50, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

True. I felt the prose was now very dry, and was reminded of a phrase in The King's English about unconnected sentences as "those 'little hard round unconnected things'" ... "that 'seem to come upon one as shot would descend from a shot-making tower'". But going back to that text I find that it is a discussion placing great weight on "degrees of thought dependence", which is exactly what editors are seeking to avoid here. So, what we have is exceptionally dry prose, appropriate to an exceptionally problematic subject. William Avery (talk) 18:41, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

That's just it, or part of the problem with deleting all the "howevers". The prose becomes too dry, hard to follow. I don't think it's an unfair "stacking the evidence" when we use modifying words to facilitate understanding of particular passages. Filling out a thought with emphasis in key places could work to stack evidence either way, if that were really what was being done. But we've already hashed out all the balance and fairness of emphasis, over many agonizing years, so I don't see any implicit bias in leaving in the "howevers". It's a matter of clarification, of holding the reader's attention, which is important, too. I like that about "shot descending from a tower" as a metaphor. But I don't think that even this controversial a topic requires prose so dense and monotonous as that would imply. We do not want to lose the reader. Wikipedia is, after all, not for experts in a narrow field (at least not only for them) but for everyone. The "howevers" worked just fine for several years. I am really not comfortable with deleting them en masse now. --Alan W (talk) 23:50, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Crollalanza

I have added a shorter version of the Crollalanza authorship theory. This is treated at more length on Wikipedia’s corresponding Italian-language Shakespearian Authorship site.

This story is as yet little covered in English and little known to English-speakers; but (for good or evil) it is likely to become better known once Alicia Maksimova’s 2016 documentary film “Was Shakespeare English?”, which promotes it, goes the rounds of English-speaking late-night television. This will lead people to seek reliable information on Crollalanza.

I have emphasized those elements of this story—certainly not its plausibility!—that make it of interest, and perhaps worth space in the select group of authorship theories that Wikipedia currently covers. If senior editors do not consider it worth space here, perhaps they could remove it to a separate Wikipedia page, as is already the case for John Florio’s and Emilia Lanier’s claims, among others.

Much additional material about the Crollalanza theory can be found in the Italian-language Wikipedia site on Shakespearian authorship, but the automatic translation of this into English is largely unintelligible. I have prepared a more idiomatic translation of the entire Italian-Wikipedia article on Crollalanza, and have placed it on the associated Discussione (Talk) page here. Marcasella (talk) 16:47, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Sorry to revert that work, but it looks like WP:RECENTISM and falls prey to suspicions of using Wikipedia to boost a fringe theory, apart from considerations of WP:Undue. Undue because many people who don't figure among the famous four have better coverage in secondary sources than (S)Crollalanza). I might also note that (a) appearing on the mystery mongering 'Voyager' programme on RAI2 run by Roberto Giacobbo is evidence enough it's fringe lunatic, for that's all that Giacobbo promotes. (b) Part of the alternative Shakespeare candidates were conjured up by voices putatively heard in séances, as the late lamented Paul Barlow here documented, and the Crollalanza theory has its origins in the paranormal, not in documentation as far as I can ascertain.

Still we do need a page perhaps on this, and I would advise you to retrieve your draft from the earlier page version, and simply create an appropriate wiki page and register the name at the List of Shakespeare authorship candidates page, with a link. Regards Nishidani (talk) 19:28, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Nishidani. I do appreciate those arguments, and concede that the interest of the Crollalanza theory does not lie in its plausibility. In fact coverage on Wikipedia, by correcting one of its crucial claims, that Crollalanza in Italian means "shakes spear", may reduce its populist appeal.

I'm happy to move it to a separate page, but have no experience in setting up Wikipedia pages from scratch. Could I trouble you to provide me with a stub for such a page? Marcasella (talk) 22:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Fine. I'll fix that in a few hours time, once I've found a broom to sweep away the mass of cobwebs from my eyes, and fueled the cognitive battery with leachings from Liptons. Cheers.Nishidani (talk) 07:32, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

I've set the page up for you at The Crollalanza Hypothesis of Shakespeare’s Identity. Be careful to reconstruct the idea's history, then the commentary on it, and finally its reception history. It overlaps obviously the Florio hypothesis. There is a lot of junk pseudo-scholarship on this, be careful to use only reliably published sources.Nishidani (talk) 14:59, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Many thanks Nishidani. It will take me a day or two to work out how to do this. Marcasella (talk) 17:13, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Nowuz.All you need look at is the (sfn|last name|year| and, if available, page) format in the bibliography (2) format all citations for the bibliography according to the models there. If you have any problems just give me a tingle on the virtual blower, i.e., my page. Regards Nishidani (talk) 18:54, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Syntax is: {{sfn|last name|year|p=123}}, for a single page, and {{sfn|last name|year|pp=123–456}}, for a range (p vs. pp; the software unfortunately can't figure out that distinction on its own), and the page parameter is optional if one is not needed for that particular cite (but do please try to include specific page numbers for ease of verifiability). And I will also be watching the page and can help out with any more or less technical issues (but probably won't be much help with content issues). --Xover (talk) 19:17, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Statistical analysis (stylometrics) rules out all proposed candidates.

Stylometics rules out all proposed alternative candidates. That means that either someone named William Shakespeare or some unknown person using the pseudonym William Shakespeare wrote his works. I would not be surprised if these people also rave about chemtrails, and shapeshifting lizardpeople.