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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 104.169.27.100 (talk) at 09:01, 29 April 2017 (→AH funeral ......). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

An invitation

Over the past few years a variety of colourful names have been used to describe this article: dreadful, absolute dross, garbage, terrible, hack job, and a curious repetition of the word literate/illiterate—all from IPs whose own literacy is certainly not perfect, despite their seemingly high opinion of themselves. So! I think the phrase "Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" applies here. Consider this an appeal to the so-called "qualified" editors out there who feel insulted as to how bad this article is. I will be the first to admit that it is indeed lacking in many things (Holdsworth's early life, what amps he has used, interesting anecdotes from his 1970s–80s career, etc.), but almost every article on Wikipedia is a work in progress. New things can always be added and the old ones expanded upon. Furthermore, if the literacy is so incredibly bad, then for cryin' out loud let's have some details! What is there to be achieved by merely passing through on a talk page using an IP, shitting on the content like a bunch of grumpy old men, all whilst not offering anything in the way of improvements that could be made? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 07:34, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A few years have passed since, but I just read the article now and have found it pretty good. I have seen far worse. Thanks, 76.10.128.192 (talk) 18:50, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reported/rumored death

Please be aware of this Facebook post. I have not found any news or reliable sources supporting it so far though. This is the source of the edit by an IP earlier. -- ferret (talk) 17:51, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi ferret,

Just so you know, I casually stopped by here earlier today and noticed the edit that announced Alllan's passing. I immediately googled and found nothing. I am a member of the Allan Holdsworth FaceBook group, so I asked the question there. Caused quite a ruckus, I might add. 20 minutes or so after my query, Louise Holdsworth posted the notice you linked to here. Louise Holdsworth is Allan's daughter, BTW. If this is all a put-up job, it's a very elaborate one. Someone would have had to hack Louise's FB account AFTER editing the Wikipedia article. Extremely unlikely, IMHO.

So please note that the FB notification came AFTER the Wikipedia edit.

Lew Sheen

Big Lew 18:14, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Kiesel Guitars has also posted about it now. I don't think they would announce the death of a major endorser without confirming. -- ferret (talk) 18:19, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'm an admin here at Wikipedia, and also a close friend of the Holdsworth family. I was on the phone to Louise (his daughter) a few moments ago and I can confirm it is true. I am not a "reliable source", obviously, so I am monitoring for a mainstream media report. Manning (talk) 19:26, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Bartlett. I've taken the liberty of updating Allan's deceased date to yesterday, April 15th, per info just posted on Allan's FB page. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154286219177015&set=gm.1220379141418394&type=3&theater Sad day for all mankind - although most don't realize it. Transcendent geniuses are rare, and Allan absolutely was one.

On a side note, I seem to be unable to start a new topic on the FB page. Is it me for spilling the beans? Or are the admins limiting content to condolence posts?

Lew Sheen

Big Lew 01:04, 17 April 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lew Sheen (talk • contribs)

We had the FB page locked down for a while because it was going so crazy. It has been opened up again since then. You have the correct date, April 15. Manning (talk) 02:45, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for getting back to me here on this, Bartlett. I was worried that I had somehow inadvertently angered the AHFB page admins with my original post. If I exposed this news before the affected parties wanted, please forward my sincerest apologies to Louise, Emily, Sam, and the rest of Allan's family and friends. I only wanted to ID wiki vandalism and undo. I didn't think the wiki edit was true when I posted my question on FB.

Big Lew

Big Lew 04:27, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. THe biggest problem now is that the date of death is wrong, he died on the 15th according to the coroner. Unfortunately the press have reported the 16th, which puts me into "reliable source" hell, as I can't correct it. Manning (talk) 11:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

Reverted premature announcement of cause of death:

From https://www.facebook.com/groups/361803263942657/?fref=nf:

"NY TIMES ARTICLE CORRECTION (from Bartlett Manning): In the recent NY TImes obituary, a cause of death was reported. This is unfortunately without any basis, as no official cause of death has been released. I would speculate that an over-eager journalist turned a passing casual guess into 'official confirmation'. Regardless, Allan's official cause of death is something that can only be released by the Holdsworth family. We here at UnReal will naturally pass it along, if and when the family chooses to make that information public."

- For this reason I have reverted this edit. Please wait until the family has officially announced the cause of death before posting the same, thanks.

Big Lew 15:21, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Correct date of death - April 15

Unfortunately the media coverage has the incorrect date of death. He was discovered on the 16th but died on the 15th according to the coroner (I got this information from his daughter who is a close friend of mine). Hopefully the media will post the correct date, else I can post the coroner's report when I can get a copy of it. Manning (talk) 11:46, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for spotting that, Manning. But we can't use information from his daughter, even in she is a close friend. How do we get round that in the interim? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC) p.s. you might want to add your support at ITN.[reply]
All good, Billboard had the correct date. Manning (talk) 12:00, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gongzilla

Is Holdsworth's contribution to the 1995 Suffer album, for Gongzilla, notable? I think we'd need sources to support it? Here's one, but nobody trusts dicscogs, of course. Ah, Dutch wiki, bless! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:31, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've always been somewhat irked by the amount of stuff chucked into the With other artists section—whilst it's nice for fans to cross-check his work, I still think it should only include albums which have a(n) WP article proving notability, rather than just blank entries with an artist link. There used to be a nice, comprehensive list of his collabs on the official Holdsworth site, so perhaps a link to that in the form of a ref or in External links? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 21:21, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that sounds sensible. It's sometimes hard to know where to draw the line between piped links and red links. Not sure if red links have been banned yet from ay article linked at Main page. There's no reason why a Suffer article could not be created. A nice album, although no credit for Allan (tracks: 1, 2, 6, 9) on the cover? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:23, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My two cents: If there's a source backing it, and the artist OR album OR song is notable, include it. If none of the components are notable and there's not a strong reliable source to back its existence, it can be safely excluded. If the listing of collaborations feels particularly long, we can try a terser format of just "Artist - Album - Song" and put them in a 3-4 column table to avoid a super long list. -- ferret (talk) 11:53, 18 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Again, personal knowledge here, so not usable on-wiki. Allan didn't care about "career paths" or money, and would basically play for anyone who was a friend. Hence he made appearances in some truly bizarre places, such as late 80s Canadian synthpop. YouTube clip Manning (talk) 13:29, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Removing sourced information on cause of death.

This edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Allan_Holdsworth&curid=328261&diff=776197189&oldid=776162783) takes away a sourced statement from reputable media about how the guy died -- is that the right thing to do? PaulCHebert (talk) 18:59, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Left a note on Lew's talk page to come here and explain. Since the New York Times is a RS, you are free to reverse the removal. The story may be wrong, but that's what is in the press.104.169.28.48 (talk) 20:55, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/.../allan-holdsworth-virtuoso-guitarist-dies-at-70.html https://jazztimes.com/news/guitarist-allan-holdsworth-dies-70/

Your first link doesn't work? But even WP:RSs sometimes get things wrong or publish details too soon, contrary to the wishes of family? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:03, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Family wishes" don't count - what counts is whether or not a Reliable Source has published information. These articles are sources for what his former manager stated was the cause of death. Verifiability, not truth. Additionally, don't reformat another editor's postings.
  • This is the NYT article. It praises him rightly. Drmies (talk) 21:30, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your first link above still doesn't work. If you really want the Talk Page to look a mess, with un-indented and unformatted bare urls, I guess that's your choice and we have to respect it. Could you at least sign your posts? I'm not sure what the rush is, to publish a cause of death, if an editor has made good faith attempts to respect the wishes of the family, over the reports of a former manager, at a time of bereavement. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:36, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Sorry - I did post and sign this explanation in the REPORTED/RUMORED DEATH section above when I did the reversion.
Reverted premature announcement of cause of death:
From Facebook
"NY TIMES ARTICLE CORRECTION (from Bartlett Manning): In the recent NY TImes obituary, a cause of death was reported. This is unfortunately without any basis, as no official cause of death has been released. I would speculate that an over-eager journalist turned a passing casual guess into 'official confirmation'. Regardless, Allan's official cause of death is something that can only be released by the Holdsworth family. We here at UnReal will naturally pass it along, if and when the family chooses to make that information public."
- For this reason I have reverted this edit. Please wait until the family has officially announced the cause of death before posting the same, thanks.
Explanation reposted here Big Lew 01:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lew Sheen (talk • contribs)
Sorry, Lew. It looks like we all missed your earlier post, three threads above this one. And many thanks for reposting it here. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:18, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No apologies necessary, Martin. In retrospect, it would have been better for me to start a new thread to explain my action.
And in response to one of the unsigned statements above, given that only the family (or perhaps the local coroner's office) has the power to officially announce Allan's cause of death, and that they in fact have NOT done so yet, means that in this case the NYT statement is speculation or rumor and therefore, for this particular bit of informantion, the NYT is demonstrably NOT a "Reliable Source".


Big Lew 14:31, 20 April 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lew Sheen (talk • contribs)
Of course it is! The NYT article stated what a FORMER manager had to say - which is a verifiable statement. That's not the same as an official coroner's report - as long as the article is summarized properly, it can be used. If any reader runs off thinking that the manager's comments are the cold hard facts, that's their problem.HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:53, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Are you suggesting any further change to the article text at this time? Or should we just wait for the "official report", however long that might take. As far as I can see, there is nothing definitely wrong in the article at present. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:08, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

AH funeral ......

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/allan-holdsworth-funeral/ 104.169.27.100 (talk) 09:01, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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