Talk:Separation of church and state

Could someone please clean up the opening paragraph of this page? I've read it half a dozen times trying to figure out what is trying to be said and all I'm left with is a bad headache. Loomis51 00:15, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes! The opening paragraph makes no sense. If I had some idea what it was getting at, i would reviseit, but i dont.

See also: Talk:Separation_of_church_and_state/Archive1

J McMeans' historical material additions

I have added some historical material under the topic Religious Arguments for the Separation of Church and State. The additions are specific references to Christian denomimations who have supported the principle for over 500 years. Thanks -- Jmcmeans@negia.net

I have edited the introduction as follows for the sake of clarity. I tried to maintain all of the the present ideas intact. I would like to substitute the new version for the present version. Any objections? -- Jmcmeans@negia.net

The separation of church and state is a concept or principle which proposes that the institutions of the state or national government should be kept separate from religious influences or institutions. The concept has been a topic of political and religious debate throughout history. Some denominations, like the Baptists, trace the principle back to the foundation of the Christian religion 2000 years ago. The term "church" is usually used in the traditional Western sense, but the phrase as a whole applies to religion and religious institutions in general and its/their relationship to government. In countries where other religions are dominant, the words mosque, temple, or synagogue are often substituted.

In the United States, separation of church and state is governed by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and by legal precedents interpreting the clause, some of which are quite controversial. The Establishment Clause states that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." However, the Supreme Court has decided that the Fourteenth Amendment (one of the Reconstruction Amendments) makes the Establishment Clause and other portions of the Bill of Rights binding on state and local governments as well. Many other democratic governments around the world have adopted similar clauses in their respective constitutions.

The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution, but rather derives from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, Jefferson referred to a “wall of separation between church and state.” James Madison, the father of the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, wrote in the early 1800s, “Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States.” Ulysses S. Grant also called for Americans to "Keep the church and state forever separate."

The view that religious and state institutions should be separate covers a wide spectrum, ranging between one extreme which would secularize or destroy the church, and theocracy which absorbs the state into the function of the church. In the United States, some secularists and Christians assert that the state should be kept entirely separate from religion, and also that the institutions of religion should be entirely free from state interference. Churches that exercise their authority completely apart from government endorsement, whose foundations are not in the state, are conventionally called "Free" churches

A Secular Government does not cite a specific religious institution for the justification of its authority. However, some secular governments establish quasi-religious justifications for their powers, constructed for ceremonial and rhetorical purposes, but designed for the general welfare and the benefit of the state, without necessarily favoring any specific religious group, or conforming to any doctrine other than its own - an arrangement called civil religion. Some secularists would allow the state to encourage religion (such as by providing exemptions from taxation, or providing funds for education and charities, including those that are "faith based"), but insist the state should not establish one religion as the state religion, require religious observance, or legislate dogma.

Some countries embrace a middle position, between secular and religious government. In these countries, the state uses the power of government to support a specific religious institution to some degree. Turkey, for example, despite being an officially secular country (the Preamble of the Constitution states that “There shall be no interference whatsoever of the sacred religious feelings in State affairs and politics”), pays imams' wages, provides religious education in public schools (article 24 of the Constitution) and has a Department of Religious Affairs (article 136 of the Constitution) that organizes the Muslim religion.

A Theocracy exists when religious law is applied to state policy with the direct authority of the religious institution. In a theocracy, the state may have been founded upon a religious institution, or the courts of the religion officially direct policies of the civil government.

The principle of the separation of church and state is related to and similar to the concept of freedom of religion, but the two concepts are not the same. For example, citizens in a country with a state church may have complete freedom of religion. And citizens who live in a country without a state church may still not enjoy freedom of religion. In the United States, the structure and wording of the First Amendment, with both an Establishment Clause and a Free Exercise Clause, demonstrates the differences in these two concepts. Both clauses have evolved an important body of case law from the U.S. Supreme Court as well as lower federal courts.

While many states or nations permit freedom of religious belief, no country allows completely unrestricted freedom of religious practice. National law, when it reflects important or fundamental governmental interests, may justifiably prohibit certain acts which are a component of the religion of some citizens.

In the United States, state laws can prohibit practices such as bigamy, sex with children, human sacrifice, use of drugs, or other criminal acts, even if a group claims the practices are part of their religious belief system. However, the federal courts give close scrutiny to any state or local laws that impinge upon the bona fide exercise of religious practices. The courts ensure that genuine and important religious rights are not impeded, and that questionable practices are limited only to the extent necessary. The courts usually demand that any laws restricting religion must demonstrate a fundamental or "compelling" state interest, such as protecting citizens from bodily harm. See Free Exercise Clause for further discussion.

Was this added late at night in U.S. time zones? Was it marked minor? It's highly POV; I can't even begin to fix it. In general, it's very much an argument in favor of a particular interpretation of U.S. Constitutional law, rather than a neutral presentation of the issue just in the U.S., let alone worldwide. --♥ «Charles A. L.» 18:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

(see Talk:Separation of church and state#Biases and omissions for a clarification) Template:Past AID

Please remove the section "secular arguments against separation

It only contains one sentence and only presents the opinion of one man. Realistically, almost all believers in secular government support the separation of church and state. I'm going to remove it anyway. User:66.177.138.113 19:14, 10 April 2005

No, it is a valid point and it is not held only by Maurras but by many others as well. Actually it is the conservative (in the sense of political philosophy around 1800) take on religion and was turned upside-down by Marxism. Though not all proponents of this view were downright atheists, as Maurras was, many were merely conventional Christians, e.g. Metternich. They advocated Christianity because it was "respectable" and "decent" to do so, but not out of a deep faith.

You say, "almost all believers in secular government support the separation of church and state", but this is either historically questionable (and what is almost all? - so they were others?) or redudant.

What do you mean by secular government? One can very well argue that any government is secular since it deals with secular things. Or is a secular government one separated from religious bodies? Then your statement is redundant. And what is separation? In a way Christianity is the inventor of a separation of the two powers (Gelasius, Augustine, Jesus himself) Hence this section must be included.Str1977 16:34, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Old talk

Oh really? that may be true, but constitutional law is little compared to the socialistic notions and "laws" used by societies today. They are more influential, and it can be agreed that most countries advocate separation of church and state. So either way, this article is wrong, but it's worth a point. -- UnidentifiedSpeaker

Excuse me, but Portugal, France, Turkey and Mexico are the only four nations with a valid and CONSTITUTIONAL law separating the State from the Church. So this article is partly wrong. -- PedroTeles

Why is this sentence in the article: "In addition to the ban on Congress establishing an official state religion, the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution bans the individual states from establishing an official state religion as well." I find no such wording in the Fourteenth Amendment. The clostest thing I could find was this: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." Where does this come from? I haven't seen it anywhere else. -- Anonymous

A couple of external links that could be useful

At least in the explanation of the history of the US Constitutional seperation of church and state would be Patrick Henry's A Bill Establishing a Provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion and James Madison's (then anononymous) response, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessment]. While these two documents apply to Virginia law of the time rather than to the US Constitution, I think they both give good insight into two competing views of the relationship of religious and secular authority during the birth of the US. -Craig

What did the Court actually say?

I have a question please about the following paragraph.

When fundamentalists attempted to force biology teachers to teach the Genesis creation story if they taught evolution, the Supreme Court ruled that labeling a religious doctrine as "science" was insufficient to allow it to be taught to a child in public school for the purpose of converting the child to a religion. [1]

To FairAndBalanced. You wrote that "the Supreme Court ruled that labeling a religious doctrine as "science" was insufficient to allow it to be taught to a child in public school for the purpose of converting the child to a religion." Could you point to the page in the case where the Court said that?

It seems to me that the Court found that the Act failed the first prong of the Lemon test--"secular purpose." Accordingly, the Court ruled on summary judgment and did not have to examine whether the thousand pages of "science" that the creationists filed was actually "science" or not. Would you agree? Rednblu 03:26, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

That does not invalidate my version, but feel free to change it to stick more closely to the strict legal reasoning. The previous version inappropriately implied that ID was scientific. Fairandbalanced 00:10, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Fundamentalist attempt to force biology teachers to teach Genesis

When fundamentalists attempted to force biology teachers to teach the Genesis creation story if they taught evolution, the Supreme Court ruled that even scientific evidence could not be taught to a child in public school for the purpose of converting the child to a religion. That is, religious people could not appropriate snippets of scientific evidence with the aim of persuading public school children to adopt religious beliefs.

Where is Intelligent Design even implied in the above statement?

How about you and I start from the above and change it so that you think it is accurate.

Or how about quoting the Supreme Court?

When fundamentalists attempted to force biology teachers to teach the Genesis creation story if they taught evolution, the Supreme Court ruled that "teaching a variety of scientific theories about the origins of humankind to schoolchildren might be validly done with the clear secular intent of enhancing the effectiveness of science instruction. But because the primary purpose of the Creationism Act is to endorse a particular religious doctrine, the Act furthers religion in violation of the Establishment Clause." In other words, the Court did not have to examine whether what was taught under the Creationism Act was scientifically accurate. Only the legislators' intent to teach religion mattered to the Court.

Are we getting somewhere? Rednblu 02:36, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Separation of church and state is NOT a constitutional law outside the United States

As the text in the article makes clear by summarizing the laws in several countries, the separation of church and state is NOT a constitutional law--except in the United States.

Actually, the Constitution of France enforces the concept of laïcité, which implies the separation of Church and State. David.Monniaux 08:28, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This is also true of Canada where several laws regarding the permissability of religion in public schools have been struck down on constitutional grounds. For example,On September 23, l988, in response to a court challenge, the Ontario Court of Appeal struck down subsection 28(1) of Regulation 262, which had allowed public schools to open or close the school day with religious exercises that gave primacy to a particular faith. In response to another legal challenge brought by a group of parents in Elgin County, on January 30, 1990, the Ontario Court of Appeal struck down subsection 28(4) of Regulation 262, which concerned the teaching of religion in the public elementary schools. The court held subsection 28(4) to be invalid in public schools because it permitted the teaching of a single religious tradition as if it were the exclusive means through which to develop moral thinking and behaviour. The court also ruled, however, that education designed to teach about religion and to foster moral values, without indoctrination in a particular religious faith, would not contravene the charter.

The court elaborated on the differences between indoctrination and education in the following manner:

1. The school may sponsor the study of religion, but may not sponsor the practice of religion. 2. The school may expose students to all religious views, but may not impose any particular view. 3. The school's approach to religion is one of instruction, not one of indoctrination. 4. The function of the school is to educate about all religions, not to convert to any one religion. 5. The school's approach is academic, not devotional. 6. The school should study what all people believe, but should not teach a student what to believe. 7. The school should strive for student awareness of all religions, but should not press for student acceptance of any one religion. 8. The school should seek to inform the student about various beliefs, but should not seek to conform him or her to any one belief

The current first sentence reads:

The separation of church and state is a concept in constitutional law wherein the functions of government are kept separate from those of religion.

I suggest that the current first sentence be corrected to remove the inaccuracies and severe United States bias that are in the current first sentence. Rednblu 19:19, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Generally, the separation of church and state is constitutional law, whether it be expressed explicitly in a written constitution (like the USA, France and Australia) or whether it is a convention of an unwritten constitution (like the UK and New Zealand). I'm not aware of any state that separates itself from the church through legislation, but if this were the case, the constitutonal focus of the article should be adapted.--Cyberjunkie 13:57, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Stable separation?

Why is Britain listed as having a stable separation? While it is true that the two are not the same, the monarch is also the head of the established church - can we change the title?2toise 06:58, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

By that token, why is the U.S. listed as not having a stable separation? What the hell does "stable" separation mean anyway? Whose opinion is that? This division and the classifications made therein make little or no sense. Daniel Quinlan 22:37, Nov 20, 2003 (UTC)

The US doesn't have a monarch, by that "token." Makes sense to me. --69.214.227.51 06:07, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Separation of politics and religion in the US

I agree with MisfitToys' edits, which resulted in a text that expressed what I meant better than my original. However, I reverted "estrangement" to "separation". "Estrangement" is separation, but with the added nuance of some hostility. I don't think that hostile feelings are an issue here – it's just that some countries separation religion and politics by tradition, and many people adhere to this vision without being hostile to religion. It's just like strawberry marmalade and steak - you may like each separately, but think, without any kind of bad feeling, that they do not mix well. See laïcité for instance. David.Monniaux 08:27, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Technically, 'separation of church and state' isn't fixed "constitutional law' in the US either (although it is a concept discussed in constitutional law); the nature of the amendment is more toward non-establishment (different from disestablishment) rather than separation. MisfitToys 20:48, Apr 28, 2004 (UTC)

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I would have expected to see something about Turkey here as I believe it is a good example of an Islamic country which has acheived a clear secular constitution. I don't know enough about Turkish history to edit the article. Are there any Turkish contributors who would like to comment ? Julianp 02:10, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

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I would like the U.S. section edited. After all, the Constitution says, Congress shall make no law concerning the establishment, etc. and you start with "The court-enforced separation does not extend to all elements of civil religion." Which is true, but your examples of money, etc., just aren't establishments of religion. My point isn't that I disagree with people who see these as religious, but that writing this article should take into account that some of us don't accept these displays as incongruous. I consider that atheism is a religion, and to leave out these statements would be undemocratic- and the Constitution guarantees me a "democratic form of gov't"

solomonrex

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I believe that the separation of politics and religion in the US is not complete: having a president say "God bless America" in all his public appearances and having "In God we trust" printed on the money clearly shows what is the main religion.

The primary response to that arguement is that "God" can refer to any god, and thus does not imply that one religion is favored (of course, atheists and agnostics don't like this, either). Remember, seperation of Church and State is not mandated, simply non-interference. Emmett5 00:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

A response to that is the use of the singular "God" cannot refer to a plural, thus technically favouring monotheism. (Nitpicky, I know, but a valid point.) Autarch 16:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Prayer Ban

Did the Spreme Court actually ban all prayer in schools, or just organized prayer? From what I understand, kids are free to pray on their own, therefore it wouldn't be right to say they banned prayer. To say they banned prayer makes it sound like there are police standing over anyone who says a silent prayer by themself. If it's not so, I propose saying they banned "organized prayer". Thoughts? --DanielCD 14:02, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Even organized prayer is fine, as long as the kids do it on their own (I believe), possibly with some restrictions i.e. not during school hours. I think that it can't be teacher-led. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 14:08, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Canadian Constitution

Actually, I see nothing in the Canadian Constitution about supremecy of any god... check here

I also can find no mention of god at all

1982 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/annex_e.html#I --JimWae 21:31, 2005 Apr 5 (UTC)

It's in the preamble to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is a Constitutional document:

"Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law." Loomis51 00:15, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

God. We use upper-case "G" when refering to God. You should too. Nevertheless, you should read the text of the Charter again. DocEss 17:34, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Russian laws

I just stumbled into this:

"For example, in the Russian Armed Forces -- for which there continues to be universal conscription -- no form of religious worship other than Orthodox Christian worship is permitted."

I think this is wrong. I've never heard of any law like that in Russia. It is true that chaplains are strictly Orthodox (although this might have changed recently), but, as far as I know, prayer is NOT prohibited. Can anyone supply a reference to prove or disprove this?

---

The previous statement is entirely incorrect (but a good try!) Freedom of religion has been wholeheartedly adopted in Russia. In Chechnya, before going into battle, it is common for soldiers to pray. No religion is prohibited. That said, Russian Orthodox is the primary religion practiced. And it is still not what could be considered a religious country, as the enforced athiesm of the communist era had its effect and a majority of the population could be considered non-believers.

Noitall 03:14, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Sentence about the phrase not appearing in the US Constitution

I took out the sentence at the end of the first paragraph. I don't think it matters how many people believe it, saying that "separation of church and state" doesn't appear in the constitution is a loaded statement that makes it seem that there is some significance in its not being there. I don't believe it is significant, because the law is discussed every day in terms that don't appear in the constitution. Anyway, I'm sure 2/3 of Americans think a lot of things about the constitution that aren't true. Superking 21:22, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Article structure and new header on History

This is the first I've visted this page, and don't know how active or watched/maintained it is but I added a history section on the history of the seperation of church and state. My background is medieval so have no plans to fill out the Ancient or Modern history articles but created the sub-headings just in case (they don't need to be there). Also notice that the article is 32k long, it would make sense to start breaking stuff out to sub-articles with main article and summary paragraphs (see First Crusade for an example); the 3 "Country" chapters would make a good sub-article. --Stbalbach 07:36, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Rebutle: Yeas, but it is important that people undertsand that it isnt actually a law. Otherwise people may sound like idiots if the reference it. --Poster Unknown

Why is the list of stable state churches so short?

Surely many other countries could be included. E.g., Greece. Michael Hardy 22:52, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Biases and omissions

I've tagged the article as having a limited geographic scope, as there are a lot more noteworthy countries.

I've also noticed that this article is almost exclusively about Christianity. There is a lot of activity on the church-state front in the Islamic world, and there is plenty of source material available online from the State Department and the news media. I'm thinking some good subjects would include Iran, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia (given the strong relations with the United States), and Iraq (which is in an extremely interesting state of flux right now), and there is plenty of source material available online from the State Department and the news media. I've created a redirect to here from "Separation of mosque and state", and made a trivial contribution to coverage of Islam.

It would also be very interesting to hear about countries dominated by other religions or non-religions, especially, say, China, India, Israel, Vietnam, North Korea. One other subtle bias is that only advocacy groups for separation are listed, none against. -- Beland 21:51, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I followed a link to here when reading about the New Komeito Party of Japan. I don't really understand why this article shouldn't be titled "Separation of religion and state" when this article covers an international scope already. While "church and state" is more common colloquially, that should be relegated to a redirect title rather than the main article title because it's misleading -- no state actually separates itself from Christianity only but they all separate themselves from any form of religion.--69.214.227.51 05:08, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's actually a very valid point. "Church" does imply that Christianity is the topic of discussion. Perhaps the article should be put up for renaming. However, there are issues arising from designating the article "Separation of religion and state" too. How broad are we to consider 'religion'? Religion does not necessarily mean organised religion, which is what is separated from the state. For religion itself to be separated from the state, the religiosity of certain politicians of supposedly secular states would be illegal, would it not?--Cyberjunkie 13:50, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not really. --69.214.227.51 16:18, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Source requests for United States sections

Are there references for the Madison quote and for the Justice Thomas position? -- Beland 05:54, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I took out the Madison quote: it's known to be bogus. As for Thomas's position, his dissent in last term's Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow outlines his view that the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment was intended as a federalism protection of sorts, prohibiting the federal government from interfering with state religious establishments. I shudder to think that a person who essentially denies the existence of a legal separation of church and state sits on the highest court in the land, but that's neither here nor there. SS451 22:49, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

Tests for office in the U.S.

Seven U.S. states still have religious tests for office on the books, that have yet to be challenged.

I assume that previous precedents have essentially rendered these statues unenforcable. If so, I wouldn't see the fact that they remain unchallenged as particularly significant, though it might be an interesting bit of trivia to add to Separation of church and state in the United States. -- Beland 02:28, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Excised text

I have excised from the text the following:

Many Americans mistakenly believe that the doctrine of "separation of church and state" exists in the Judicial System of the United States, however nowhere in the Constitution does it demand or even refer to such a division. The phrase was coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in which he says "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." [sic.] His "wall" was understood to be protecting the collective idea of church from persecution and abuse from the state. Unlike in Jefferson's day when he as well as others were trying to produce freedom of religion, many today are, in effect, trying to produce a freedom from religion. (The entire text of this letter, as well as the text of the Danbury Letter may be found at the Library of Congress website: http://www.loc.gov

It was contributed by Anonymous user 65.96.3.211. The reason I have removed it is because it does not, I believe, belong in the introductory text. I am not opposed to its inclusion within the article, but I am seeking input as to where it should be placed. The most obvious placement would in the United States of America section. Thoughts? --Cyberjunkie 05:01, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

This appears to be a particular interpretation of history and constitutional law, which is not supported by any sources. Until this view can be attributed it does not belong in the article. -Willmcw 04:37, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I partially agree with the above comments. A better and more fuller discussion of this timely and important topic should be in the body. As to sources, the first sentence is self-evident in the Establishment Clause. The Danbury source can be found many places, such as the Danbury letter, Library of Congress. The third part is controversial and needs more explanation. The last part is a political view. --Noitall 05:06, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

"The Canadian view on Church and State is largely similar to the view in the United States." Who says this? I'm not an expert here, but I can think of a number of counterexamples. Catholics are given explicit rights, expecially in Quebec, which area given to no other relgious groups. There is no law banning government funding to religous groups. There are publicly funded Christian schools. I hate to say it, but this makes me suspicious of the rest of the article. DJ Clayworth 18:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Since 'Separation of church and state' is pretty much a US-only concept, maybe we should rename this article to Relations between church and state or something similar. DJ Clayworth 18:17, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Went and wrote a more accurate version. DJ Clayworth 18:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Germany. I believe that until recently (1980s?) in Germany there was a 'church tax' which was administered by the government and given to a church of your choice? You could opt out, but it was opt-out rather than opt-in? DJ Clayworth 18:19, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dear Clayworth, the church tax does exist in Germany, however the details you give are not accurate (church - or charity - of your choice is the Italian way) Not all religious groups do raise church. If a group is sufficently big, sufficently stable and not at odds with the constitution, they can attain the status of "corporation of public law" and they then can among other things (against a fee) use the state's revenue system of raising "membership fees" from their members (the amount is usually a percentage of from the income tax). Currently this status is held by the Catholic Church, the mainline Protesant EKD and the Jewish congregation. Also, Jevovah's Wittnesses have recently succeeded in a court case giving them this status as well, but so far they haven't decided on how to deal with their newly won rights. So you give church tax to the "church of your choice" because you are a member of that church, but not to any other church. You also can opt out only by withdrawing official membership. If you don't belong to a church/religious group that raises that church tax (as explained above) you don't have to pay anything (in contrast with the Italian model). Str1977 19:19, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Rename article

Nobody has responded to my suggestion that this article be renamed Relations between church and state. Anyone object? Any supporters? DJ Clayworth 17:02, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it is fine as is. However, you might like to shift all information pertaining to relations under a new section with your suggested title.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 06:53, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

• I think the name of the article as it stands is appropriate and has a different meaning to the proposed change. The separation of church and state was important in Australian colonial history and made a difference in particular to education and how it is delivered today. It has a different sense than relations between the two institutions. Perhaps a separate article might be in order exploring the issues of the relationship.--AYArktos 08:40, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Greece - copyright problem?

The Greece section appears to be copied directly from the linked source ([2]). While the source is clearly indicated, the paragraph is not displayed as a quote (and is really too long to be considered one). Probably this should be rewritten to avoid copyright infringement? --David Edgar 11:18, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Grant quote

I removed this:

Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private school, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate. Ulysses S. Grant

because of where it was situated, as though it were a statement of fact, or the last word. The quote is not irrelevant though; and an appropriate place might be found for it, in this article. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 06:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

yeah because Grant was our greeatest presedent ever. It however is appropriate for the article so I can offer no reason to not add it. Personally I am in Favor of a Theocracy. 167.142.154.27 21:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Article split

I propose a split of this article. I would move the descriptions of each country's relation between its church and state to a new article Relationship between church and state, while keeping the specific discussion of the separation parts, especially the US experience here. This is basicly because the degree of separation is not actually the key thing for many countries. For them it is not sensible to discuss the relationship in terms of separation. DJ Clayworth 17:00, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Separation

I think there's a problematic leaning within the concept of "separation" as it is discussed here. Granted, this affects the whole discussion in the "outside world" so it surely does affect Wikipedia, but I will ask anyway.

At fact value, separation of church and state should mean neither interferes directly with the other. However, as the section for the "separated" Turkey (the quoted passage reads the "There shall be no interference whatsoever of the sacred religious feelings in State affairs and politics"), as well as the entry to the "Modern" section ("Some states are more strict than others in disallowing church influence on the state") are leaning towards only considering a ecclesiatical interference into the state and not the other way around.

Does anyone have an idea how to fix this (the Turkey passage is not so much the problem, as the passage raises this issue, but the "modern" is). I'm not sure whether there is a solution since this a real life problem. Str1977 21:29, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed text from "secular arguments against separation"

Copying the text here. I agree with JimWae that these are not really secular arguments. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza 19:58, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Both of these groups have won recent victories in the allowance of religious symbols on public land under specific circumstances, although many see the need to defend these religious symbols as a defeat and insult to our roots as a nation.

There are those outside of organized religion who believe every person has the right to live under government that agrees with their core beliefs. This has lead back to the idea of Localized Church Government. If Localized Church Government were to be applied in America every county would decide how they wanted to be affiliated with the church. This would, according to its supporters, lead to greater religious freedom for everyone. “The state religion is this way and if you don’t like it you can leave.”

There are also people who believe the government should take an active role in eliminating religion. These people believe that it is impossible to keep the “superstitions” and “religious prejudices” out of the government and that the “superstitions” and “religious prejudices” are harmful to society. The only way to solve the problem of religion, according to these people, is to get rid of religion. They often point to freedom of choice. While many secularists think abortion is fine most religious groups condemn it and are trying to get it outlawed. Religious groups are often against homosexual marriage, pornography, child labor, free sex, prostitutes, euthanasia, and gambling; things many others see as being human rights.

Lastly there is the argument that if church and state were separated to the fullest extent possible religiously affiliated groups could perform any action they chose without fear of governmental intervention. As it is the government still has the ability to say that religious groups can't hold human sacrifices or set off nuclear weapons or destroy private property or other such illegal acts.

Secular arguments against separation

These arguments are not inherently secular, but nor are they religious. I placed them under secular arguments as a default. Would it be acceptable to every one to have a "neutral arguments against separation" section?

Secularism and theocracy

In less of course we are dealing with Evolution against Creationsism, in that case we must consider the parallels, and more importantly the flaw in language (Wittgenstein) to consider different perspectives. I have many problems with this post, because there are many flaws but this is my first post here? Is it cool, or who can I discuss this matter with this peson futher? moved from article, originally posted by 68.56.4.204

Overview or US Summary?

The section here which claims to be an overview of the topic in fact goes into enormous detail about the origins of the particular position in the USA. I think much of that materal needs to be in a distinct section concerned with separation of church and state in the US constitution. I know it's a particular constitutional isue in the US, but a general overview should be international in scope. Myopic Bookworm 09:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that would involve a new section about works such as A Letter Concerning Toleration by John Locke (Yes, I know that Locke didn't advocate the modern understanding of toleration - he didn't allow for toleration of Catholics or atheists, but his work can be seen as a forerunner.) Autarch 17:08, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

quite a leap of understanding

Text currently in the article: "The Danbury Baptist Association wrote President Jefferson in an attempt to persuade him to use his Executive Powers as President to intervene in their behalf. In his letter of reply to the Danbury Baptist Association, Jefferson argued that the U.S. Constitution forbade any interference from the Federal government with a Connecticut law which required membership in a particular church in order to hold public office.

Jefferson's point in the letter was that the Federal or State governments had no Constitutional authority to prohibit the practice of any religion. Jefferson refused their plea on the grounds cited in his letter. Thus, with the adoption of the Jeffersonian phrase '...wall of separation between church and state...', by those who seek to use Federal power to remove from the public square any religiosity of any sort, the inversion of the meaning intended by Jefferson as he wrote it."

It is interesting that whomever added this purports to know the intent of Jefferson, compared to some of the issues regarding Jefferson's abhorrence for state supported religion, and religiously supported states.--Vidkun 15:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Here, in fact, is the text of the leter from the DBA to Jefferson -

"Sir, — Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your Election to office; we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyd in our collective capacity, since your Inauguration, to express our great satisfaction, in your appointment to the chief Majestracy in the United States; And though our mode of expression may be less courtly and pompious than what many others clothe their addresses with, we beg you, Sir to believe, that none are more sincere.

Our Sentiments are uniformly on the side of Religious Liberty — That Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals — That no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious Opinions - That the legitimate Power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor: But Sir our constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter together with the Laws made coincident therewith, were adopted on the Basis of our government, at the time of our revolution; and such had been our Laws & usages, and such still are; that Religion is considered as the first object of Legislation; and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights: and these favors we receive at the expense of such degradingacknowledgements, as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore; if those, who seek after power & gain under the pretense of government & Religion should reproach their fellow men — should reproach their chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion Law & good order because he will not, dare not assume the prerogatives of Jehovah and make Laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.

Sir, we are sensible that the President of the United States, is not the national legislator, and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the Laws of each State; but our hopes are strong that the sentiments of our beloved President, which have had such genial affect already, like the radiant beams of the Sun, will shine and prevail through all these States and all the world till Hierarchy and Tyranny be destroyed from the Earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and good will shining forth in a course of more than thirty years we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the chair of State out of that good will which he bears to the Millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence & the voice of the people have cald you to sustain and support you in your Administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth & importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.

And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.

Signed in behalf of the Association.

his response -

Gentlemen, — The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

Nowhere in his letter, do I see anything supporting the assertion "Jefferson's point in the letter was that the Federal or State governments had no Constitutional authority to prohibit the practice of any religion. Jefferson refused their plea on the grounds cited in his letter."--Vidkun 15:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Separation of "Church" and State

I know the supposed term for this political doctrine is "Separation of church and state", however I believe this title is not in accordance with the doctrine should be "Seperation of religion and state", as the term "church" connotates merely with Christian denominations, offering the assumption that other religions and religious doctrines are not included in the "Seperation of church and state"—it also can be viewed as discrimination toward Christianity. I believe the term "church" is most likely used due to ineptitude of the term's creator, and should be replaced with the term "religion" on Wikipedia. I propose we move this article to that title and rephrase the opening statement as such:

• The separation of religion and state (unveiled as separation of church and state) is a political doctrine ..."

A further explanation of the title and title alteration could be explained further in the article. Any further comments would be appreciated. — CRAZY`(IN)`SANE 20:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

"Ineptitude of the creator"? I think you misunderstand the issue. The doctrine as it is formed was originally to stop a Christian denomination being favoured and adopted as an official state denomination - it's not actually the secularism ideal (that religion should not be included in Government whatsoever) that so many people believe it to be. The historical context has led it to be called this. It's not a biased issue in any sense. (JROBBO 05:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC))

"Weasel words"

The part about Egypt caught my eye "Despite the fact that Egypt is a predominantly Islamic population, most would agree that the Coptic Orthodox Church is the unofficial state church of Egypt." It seems to justify it later on, which makes me wary of removing this out of hand. Anyone else have thoughts on this? 68.39.174.238 04:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

There are those who believe every person has the right to live under government that agrees with their core beliefs. This has led back to the idea of Localized Church Government. If Localized Church Government were to be applied in America every county would decide how they wanted to be affiliated with the church. This would, according to its supporters, lead to greater religious freedom for everyone. "The state religion is this way and if you don’t like it you can leave.":

There are also people who believe the government should take an active role in eliminating religion. These people believe that it is impossible to keep the "superstitions" and "religious prejudices" out of the government and that the "superstitions" and "religious prejudices" are harmful to society. The only way to solve the problem of religion, according to these people, is to get rid of religion. They often point to freedom of choice. While many secularists think abortion is fine most religious groups condemn it and are trying to get it outlawed. Religious groups are often against homosexual marriage, pornography, relaxed sex laws, prostitutes, euthanasia, and gambling; things many others see as being human rights.:

This entire section is basically weasel words. "There are those who believe", "There are also people who believe", etc. Pretty much EXACTLY what the weasel words article tells you not to write.

Religious schools in Canada

...in fact, many non-Catholics (and non-Christians) prefer these schools for either the quality of education or the opportunity to be educated in an environment where morality and spirituality are not excluded.

Does this sentence implicitly state that non-(Catholic)religious schools are immoral since they provide an environment where morality and spirituality are excluded? Please excuse my imperfect grasp of English if that is not the case. Illythr 19:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If no one responds to this, we should remove that sentence. Completely POV and unnecessary.

You sure it's better that way? "Exposure to religion"? And what's up with that deleted chunk about other arguments against separation? --Illythr 19:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The entire other chunk was speculation and weaseling. Read the above discussion topic.

Separation of Church and State a Myth?

I am not what you might call a religionist.I do believe however, that the doctrine of the separation of Church and State is a political myth. On the one hand, religion is always concerned with society as a whole, not just what happens within houses of worship. On the other, politicians will always be concerned to appeal to the religious and spiritual sentiments of voters. Here in Australia, the Prime Minister has inveighed against gay marriage, invitro fertilisation, encouraged a debate about abortion, and recently (and disastrously) named a former Anglican bishop as Governor-General of Australia. He is a committed Christian. No, the priests are still working behind the scenes

Gax 20-6-06

No mention of Mark 12:13

[3]

Jesus was a proponent of separation of church and state! I can't believe this isn't under 'religious arguments for separation'. I wanted to take it up here before adding anything about it. Joffeloff 11:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

We would need an outside source who, themselves, made such an argument based on the bible. We can't cite the bible ourselves, as to do so would be original research, not to mention POV. Interpretation is a subjective matter. Kasreyn 11:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

What I meant was that surely, someone must've used this earlier, and sure enough:

• [4] - this blogger/somethingorother gets an email from someone using the verse as an argument, and responds to it

• [5] - this woman argues that Jesus accepted the 'worldly' (secular) governments and uses the verse as an example

• [6] - this person notes that it is often used as an argument by 'liberals'.

• [7] - it is used here; 'But Jesus drew a clear distinction between the Church and the State, as he did between the kingdoms of the earth and the Kingdom of Heaven. He asked his followers to give their obedience to the state in secular affairs, and obedience to God in spiritual affairs.'

Etc. Perhaps it should be listed under a different category, since it seems religious people are hesitant to interpret it this way. Joffeloff 17:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Moral

Regarding this sentence: Religion plays a strong role in national politics, especially in controversial moral issues like abortion, euthanasia, and homosexuality. "Moral" is a bit POV, whereas leaving out the qualifier completely leaves it open as to whether the subjects are "moral" or not. Abortion and euthanasia are ethical issues, which is different from moral; homosexuality is only a moral issue from a religious perspective. Hence, "moral" is a religious viewpoint only. The statement does not qualify that this is a religious viewpoint only, so "moral" is inappropriate. KillerChihuahua^?!? 17:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Strongly agree. I have removed the "moral" before and been reverted if I remember correctly. Homosexuality is not a moral issue to most gay people I know. It is only a moral issue for people who have a problem, usually religious, with homosexuality. I have no problem with describing abortion and euthanasia as moral issues, but I can't think of a good way to note them separately as moral issues and one non-moral issue without the use of exceedingly cumbersome language. I say kill the "moral" altogether. Kasreyn 03:27, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

"Homosexuality is not a moral issue to most gay people I know" sounds really objective in my book. I don't think that because supporters of a certain practice think so is a valid point, as this would also apply to the other issues, though I am glad that you agree that these are on a way different moral level (thoug "die-hard abortionists" will probably disagree).

But anyway, I will not waste my time with reverting this issue, as the current wording is still acceptable. (BTW, dividing them between moral and non-moral would clearly be POV-pushing, apart from being cumbersome.)

However, I want to say two things to KC:

• I object to your qualification of something is a "religious viewpoint": there is no religious viewpoint unless you say which religion you are talking about. There is no "the religion" and neither is there "the secular viewpoint".
• Could you please explain to me in layman's language your distinction between ethics and moral? To me they are basically the same using either the Greek or the Latin term.

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 13:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Str1977, the difference as I see it is that abortion and euthanasia are acts which one chooses or does not choose to engage in. This makes them clearly moral issues. Homosexuality is seen as an act by some - typically by the religious, who see it as a choice to sin. By many others, including homosexuals themselves, being homosexual is seen as an innate characteristic of a person, and no choice or action is involved. Therefore morality cannot be involved one way or the other, because no choice was made. Of course, Wikipedia should not take sides in the debate over whether homosexuality is innate or a choice; but calling it a "moral" issue without further explanation is clearly siding with the religious viewpoint that homosexuality is a choice. Am I more clear now? Cheers, Kasreyn 16:51, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Kasreyn, but you don't make sense. It is not a question of religion (or which or not) whether the homosexual act is an act one does because one choses so. The inclination is another issue. The point you are raising is not one of different views at all, but one of the definition of what is meant when someone says homosexuality. If you mean the act, what follows will of course be different then if you are talking about the inclination.

Anyway, your underlying points are reasonable in my book, but I am convinced that there are definitely those that disagree with them. There's no evil in this world that doesn't find advocates nowadays, even if that means wrecking reason. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 20:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

You're not reading it correctly. The article referred to "homosexuality" as a moral issue. This includes simply being homosexual, not just "homosexual acts". And you're right that there are differing viewpoints on whether it should be called a moral issue or not. That is why we must not simply call it a moral issue ourselves. We must say "group a consider this a moral issue, while group b does not", or some such thing. Kasreyn 21:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I was reading it correctly, though you misunderstood me. The article says "homsexuality" which might include simply being homosexual and not just the acts. However, it is ambiguous and how one reads it is not determined by adherence to a religion. Re the other point, I was referring strictly to the inclination. Also, "that there are differing viewpoints on whether it should be called a moral issue or not" is, at the risk of sounding repetitive, something that can be said about basically any issue. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 13:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

So it can be said about almost any issue. So what? The objection still stands. It's inappropriate for us to label an issue as "moral"; it's original research and POV. Kasreyn 19:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Technically, they are different, but the point is moot because I'm not talking about replacing moral with ethical. No, I'm talking about leaving it out altogether. It adds nothing to the sentence, unless you are trying to claim that homosexuals are immoral or unethical by their very nature, a position claimed only by those with a strong Abrahamic religious bias. There may be other religions which also condemn homosexuality as immoral - if so, I am unaware of them. Male homosexuals are considered a "third gender" in Hindu beliefs - see Hijra (South Asia) - and Buddhism only has avoid sexual misconduct as one of the precepts, and although some place homosexuality under that, some do not; some place any sex under that umbrella. Neither specifically mentions homosexuality. In contrast, the Abrahamic religions not only specifically mention it, the prescription is stoning. See Homosexuality laws of the world. KillerChihuahua^?!? 14:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

That's all fine and dandy but does not contradict my point.

As for my question, would you please answer it even it makes no difference to the article? (I never intended that it should have). So, how are they different "technically"? Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 14:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

What point are you speaking of (which was not contradicted)? KillerChihuahua^?!? 15:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The point that there is no "the religious viewpoint", nor "the secular viewpoint".

Could you please answer my question? Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 20:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

If I could intrude on this conversation to try and answer the question if I can... The adjectives "ethical" and "moral" are often used as synonyms, but ethics refers to a branch of philosophy dealing with morality: rightness and wrongness. To call an action ethical should not mean that it is right, only that it could be right or wrong in a moral sense. An action could be right or wrong in a nonmoral sense and it would not be ethical regardless. A "good" painting is judged by a standard of value which is aesthetic, not ethical (in most philosophies).

The terms "moral" and "ethical issue" sounds rather senseless to me. Why, in politics, aren't economic issues considered "moral" and "ethical"? Is there no right and wrong when it comes to the exchange of goods? Of course homosexuality is an ethical subject: either it is right or it is wrong, human actions are usually considered to be invariable so (again, in most philosophies). Though homosexuality may not be regarded as "holy" or "desirable" by some who do not regard it as "wrong" and may not be regarded as "disgusting" by some who do consider it "wrong".

As to religious and secular viewpoint: religion is one of those words everybody thinks they understand but nobody ever defines. Could not a religious person be a secular historian with secular studies under his belt and perhaps a few secular publications in various journals? Could not a religious person have a secular viewpoint if they looked through secular lenses? Or is religion life-consuming and, if so, can we call a secular humanist, whose secular humanism directs his actions and decisions, more religious than an animist or a sun-worshipper? I hope I made this clear as mud. Srnec 21:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Srnec, for intruding and informing.

It seems I have now understood the distinction, though I think that I needn't change anything about my using the terms interchangeably (with a tendency towards "moral", but that might be my occidental nature ;-) ).

Of course, economics and politics can be and are moral/ethical issues too.

Regarding "religious viewpoint", I think that this is a ploy to dismiss an argument by declaring it a "merely religious" viewpoint, when in fact most the point labelled this way have to do little with religion (abortion being the most outrageous case). 22:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

status in Israel- Jewish nationality vs. ethnicity

This section explains the common misconception about Israel being a "Jewish State." What is meant by "Jewish State", as explained in the section is the National sense, i.e. the state of the Jewish nation, similar to Italy being "the Italian state" and the Netherlands beign "The Dutch State".

The confusion derives from the ambiguity of the term "Jewish" that refers both to nationality, as in this case, and to religion. "Jewish" can also mean a general ethinicity but in this case it is not merely ethnicity that is relevent but the view that "Jewish" is in fact a nationality and that thus Israel is the Jewish Nation- the Jewish State. So, changing the term nationality into "ethincity" really misses the whole point of the esssence of Israel in the National sense.

Furthermore, the view that the Jewish people form their own nationality is in fact the raison d'être of the State of Israel.

Also, the fact that the State's name and the nationality are not derived from the same root doesn't change the fact that Israel is the manifestaion of the Jewish Nationality, similar to the way the Netherlands are to the Dutch. The citizens of Israel regardless of ethnicity are Israeli, but their nationality is Jewish (except in the case of the minorities which have in fact a double nationality, the "Israeli" political nationality and the ethnic nationality that is unique to their group.)

Understanding the differences between these terms is esssential for one to understand Israel's declaration of independence that states Israel is a "Jewish state" in which their shall be equality "Regardless of religion, race, and sex," and in which there will be complete religious freedom etc. Tal :) 10:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

"Harmony of Church and state"

Is this an official designation of some sort? Because it's currently but a redirect to state religion, something I certainly wouldn't call a "harmony". And it looks a bit POV'ish, too. --Illythr 08:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Intro was incoherent

I just cut most of the intro out, so I thought I would defend why. Roughly 75% of the introduction consisted of a convoluted discussion of what is meant by "church," with some digression into the whether or not various religions are centralized. If we want to include all this text, we ought to make it a great deal more coherent than it was. But I don't think we need it at all. The phrase is defined perfectly well in the original intro. I cut:

The text read Some denominations trace the principle back to the founding of Christianity 2000 years ago. The term "church" refers to religions and religious institutions in general and their relationship to government; in countries with religions more predominant than Christianity, the words mosque, temple, or synagogue are often substituted. However, the "church" is far more similar to the religious institutions of other monotheistic faiths. Other religions (such as The Baha'i Faith, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto, Sikhism, Jainism, and hundreds of animist faiths) have religious institutions with varying levels of authority within the faith. For example, there is no centralized Hindu "temple," in the way that there is a centralized Roman Catholic Church. There is no contemporary dominant authoritative body for Taoists, Confucianists or Muslims. There is no similarity between religious institutions even inside monotheism.

Peace out. Ethan Mitchell 22:18, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Changed USA Voucher info

Schools that qualify for vouchers may or may not have religious affilations, but the original sentense implied vouchers would apply only to religious schools. The original intent was to give options to students in schools that were in the lower 50% of the nation and option for better schooling, not just religious schooling. Many SECULAR private schools still exist.

Confusion Between ACLU and Clarence Thomas

In the "United States of America" subsection of "Countries with separation," the ACLU's view and Clarence Thomas' seem to be the same, which confused me upon reading it. As is, both the ACLU and Thomas hold to the view that "no government can blatantly favor one faith or church over the others, or favor belief in God or the Supreme being over non-belief."eudaemonic3 04:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Resources

I would find it helpful to see a section listing some non-Internet sources of information about this issue (i.e. books, documentaries, etc.) notoriousbhb 21:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)