Talk:White supremacy

"Racist Ideology" in lede

Having "racist ideology" in the lede makes the article sound childish, and as such I will remove it. Post here if you disagree. Please don't revert edits that shouldn't be reverted. Deciduous Maple (talk) 04:58, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

You've already been reverted, with ample reason. "Childish" is not a valid reason for altering long-standing consensus. The burden in on you to make your case, per WP:BRD and common sense. Grayfell (talk) 05:01, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

It is very obvious that "white supremacy" is racist from the rest of the article. Having the word "racist" in the lede make the article very unprofessional. This was discussed at length in December of 2014, when the consensus was to leave the article in the form "W.S. is a form of racism." Now it seems someone is displeased with that outcome and changed it back to their way. If that is so, I will change it back to our way. In the mean time, I will change the article back to the compromised version. Deciduous Maple (talk) 05:09, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

What's childish is actually having this discussion.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:10, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Ah, Volunteer Marek, long time no see. It appears you still haven't developed a mature style of debate and must still resort to low-effort put-downs in place of actual debate. Deciduous Maple (talk) 05:16, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Oh lord, give me a break. It's pretty ironic to see someone try and gloat about being mature. Articles evolve over time, and edit warring is not appropriate. The claim that "Racism" is a made-up, artificial word used as a silencing tactic is so ridiculous that it undermines neutrality and credibility, and suggests that this discussion is a dead end. Grayfell (talk) 05:29, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Saying something is "ridiculous" is not an argument, mate. Explaining why something is not true would be more appropriate; why don't you try that instead? P.S. If you had seen Volunteer Marek's behavior in dec 2014, you'd understand why I am quick to call him immature - because he is. Deciduous Maple (talk) 05:32, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Again with the irony! Oh, you're killing me! All words are "artificial" and Wikipedia uses words to define concepts. Playing pedantic games to try and downplay the connection to racism is against the overwhelming consensus of both Wikipedia editors, and of reliable, academic sources. Grayfell (talk) 05:44, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm with Grayfell and Volunteer Marek on this one. Current wording seems good and I think a more convincing argument needs to be made on the talk page before we consider changing it. As of now, I see now convincing argument and User:Deciduous Maple wasting other editors time. -Pengortm (talk) 06:17, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

The other editors are wasting their own time. Since no one wants to have an honest discussion, I am going to change the article back to the compromised form. Deciduous Maple (talk) 22:20, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• It is hard to imagine an ideology that is more inherently racist than White Supremacy, having this as part of the definition seems inevitable.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 06:48, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

True, but there's no reason to put that in the lede. It's a waste of words and makes the article sound emotive and childish. I never said it wasn't racist. Deciduous Maple (talk) 22:20, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I also think "form of racism" is more appropriate than "Racist ideology" —ASPENSTI—TALK—CONTRIBUTIONS 22:24, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

It's fine the way it is now. This whole thing started as a big troll organized off wiki. Even 'Deciduous Maple' is a trollish name, making fun of User:EvergreenFir who was the first one to disagree with this stupidity. DFTT folks.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:48, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Nothing "trollish" about it, m8. The word "racist" does not belong in the lede. You only call it a troll because you have no real argument - same tactics you used 2 years ago.

If no one "feeds the troll," as Volunteer Meek likes to put it, by providing legitimate arguments, then I will just change the lede back to the compromised version. That's because I'm here out of genuine care for the article and not just for a fun time. Deciduous Maple (talk) 23:05, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Having the word "racist ideology" in the lede is not an emotionally charged decision. It needs to stay there as "racism" (to which the word links) is the parent subject of WS. Having the word there gives an opportunity to link to the parent subject and therefore improves navigation. It also makes the article more explicitly clear to users who may not be familiar with the concept or term "white supremacy". Not everyone who reads English Wikipedia is English and therefore the lede section needs to make it clear what WS is and to what it belongs. I find absolutely no hint of childishness or emotionally charged tone in it's being there and see it as an appropriate choice in terms of clarity and navigational ease. You have already stated that WS is inherently racist, and therefore it only remains to convince you that an encyclopedia ought to be easily navigable and clear. Against this there are not many cogent arguments.Edaham (talk) 02:03, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

"Form of racism" and "racist ideology" mean the same thing, but most will agree (not that that matters) that "racist ideology," and by extension, all "-ist" words sound childish, emotive, and generally less aesthetic and natural than their alternatives. For that reason, the lede should remain in the "form of racism" version, if it includes "racism" at all. A compromise was made two years ago to have it this way. Why did someone change it from that? Deciduous Maple (talk) 22:48, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

• BURDEN, STATUSQUO, and SPADE. There seems to be general agreement here that the term is appropriate. Calling childish is not grounds for its removal. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:19, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Then what were the grounds for changing it to the compromised version? Pleasure seeing you again, BTW (not really). Deciduous Maple (talk) 22:48, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

English Wikipedia contains about 3.24 billion words. Your account seems to be dedicated to editing two of them. If everyone took your approach to editing English wikipedia, it would take a little under a quarter of the world's population. This is infeasible. Given the length of this discussion (not including this reply) regarding the two words, your approach to editing here, if widely employed, would also increase the size of wikipedia by about 2.4tb, which is also a pointless increase in data volume. That's why people who only want to edit two words and not contribute to the considerably more challenging task of improving and creating articles are considered not to be here to build an encyclopedia. Edaham (talk) 00:24, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Seeing as this is not response to the question I asked, I suppose I'll repeat it. What was the purpose of changing the two words from the compromised version in the first place? I am trying to change it back to the version that was agreed upon in Jan. 2015, but others here absolutely must have it their way. Why them, and not the people in the talk page / RfC two years ago? If there is not adequate argument (not ad-hominems) made here in a reasonable amount of time, I'll be changing it back again. Deciduous Maple (talk) 05:22, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

I noticed that you and your attempt to recruit people to edit this page have now been put up for administrative review. This has been a long time coming. The pattern you have observed of people not replying directly to your "arguments" should be quite apparent. The purpose of my previous reply was to encourage you as much as possible to see wikipedia as a broad ranging collection of topics and for you to find another area in which you might provide constructive input. Wikipedia has more than one topic. It would probably do you some good at this point to quickly make a note on your talk page on how you intend to be constructive in other areas of the encyclopedia as well as mention that your attempts to turn this talk page into a discussion forum have ceased.Edaham (talk) 08:13, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Seeing as this is not response to the question I asked, I suppose I'll repeat it. What was the purpose of changing the two words from the compromised version in the first place? Deciduous Maple (talk) 17:03, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• Edham said it better than I can. Doug Weller talk 12:15, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

white supremacy today

This article is well written and very complete, it focus a lot on a literal deffinition of what why suppremacy is. It will make the article more complete if it includes more information about the effects of white supremacy today.Yivi29 (talk) 05:27, 29 March 2017 (UTC) Yivi29

Good idea, but I'd also urge caution. Such additions need to keep in mind that Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a newspaper and other Wiki rules and norms. -Pengortm (talk) 14:43, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Identitarian movement

Mostly poor sources, a subset of white supremacy. Most of the article should be scrapped. Carl Fredrik ^talk 16:50, 2 April 2017 (UTC) Oppose, sources are available and not clear that it is only subset of white supremacy. Sources[1][2][3][4].--Jahaza (talk) 19:34, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose, it is certainly not a subset of white supremacy. First of all, it is a mainly European movement; it started in France and then spread to other European countries. There sure is an intersection with white nationalism -- but white nationalism is more like the ideological umbrella and not an organization -- and many different organizations can very roughly be considered to be close to that ideology.
  It is a registered association in Germany. And in France the organization has -- according to political scientist Stéphane François -- between 1.500 and 2.000 members. 93.224.110.163 (talk) 19:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC) PS The statement about the allegedly "poor sources" is in no way substantiated. PPS Identitäre Bewegung Österreichs could be merged with Identitarian movement.

History in the US

This book] has some interesting comments not included in any way in the article:

"In the two decades after the Civil War, notions of white supremacy began to coalesce, based initially on British-Israelism. Although British-lsraelism peaked in England in the 1920s with only 5,000 members (Barkun 1997:13), figures such as C. A. I.. Totten found a much wider audience in the United States. Though not a promoter of British-lsraelism as such, Totten used it as the basis of his own version of white supremacy. This belief had great impact on a young evangelist, Charles Fox Parham, who on January 1, 1901, would claim that people in his congregation began speaking in tongues at several revivals, and this was a direct communication from God. He shortly thereafter founded the Pentecostal movement (Barkun 1997:20). Pentecostalism grew rapidly in the South and the Midwest, and gained another influential supporter in the form of J. H. Allen, who transferred the key belief of white supremacy into Midwestern Methodism (Barkun 1997:21). At this point, however, white supremacy was primarily a belief that Anglo-American whites would fulfill crucial sections of biblical prophesy. It had not yet acquired the persecutionary virulence of later versions, especially in the 1920s when the Klan reached the height of its national prominence, and again in the 1960s during the civil rights movement. Nevertheless, the fact that white supremacy became a central organizing theme in the early days of two major evangelical groups is important. The issue of segregation after the Civil War, and slavery before the war, created divisions among evangelicals, and eventually disempowered evangelicalism during the civil rights struggle of the 1960s, and only recently are evangelicals in general drawing together against racist beliefs. Indeed, the Southern Baptist Convention, the single largest evangelical organization, did not renounce slavery or segregation until 1995 (Newman 2001). Prior to the 1990s, evangelicals would often travel in other, less tolerant directions. With the appearance of Reuben F. Sawyer in 1921, American evangelicalism in the South and the Southwest moved closer to the Ku Klux Klan. Klan rhetoric at this time emphasized both hatred of blacks, the focus of the first wave of Klan activity immediately after the Civil War, which Sawyer and others now joined with strong anti-Semitism and the need to preserve white culture in addition to what they saw as the genetic purity of the white race." Doug Weller talk 11:04, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Thoughts

Although grammatically correct, the first sentence emphasizes the superiority aspect, to such an extent that it could be mistaken as the definition. It's not white superiority, it's white supremacy. The statement, "centered upon the belief, and the promotion of the belief", is the main culprit which makes the first part of the sentence outweigh the second part, which is the more important part. It seems that some people want to overemphasize this. This page doesn't have enough about the origin of this term, which was a term for the Nazi racial program, in turn a type of populism. Otherwise, racist ideologies were a response to rapid urbanization and migrations of the 20th century (like the 20th century KKK, for example). Trying to push it back much before this, you will have to prove ideologies existed, and racist science was created with a racist intent. The last thing I propose is to change the "Southern Africa" section to "Zimbabwe" and "South Africa". The reason is because Rhodesia is possibly the best example of white nationalism. 71.161.203.168 (talk) 23:24, 4 May 2017 (UTC)John Dee

Is the first part of your post an edit request? If so can you restate it in a "change x to y format"? Also please provide a source for the second part of your request. Many thanks. Edaham (talk) 23:44, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Also you are right that this section requires a citation.Edaham (talk) 23:58, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I edited my comment. You mean Rhodesia? I'll work on expanding it a bit and putting it in it's own category. It definitely deserves it's own category. I'm unable to work with words AT ALL right now, but I will say that it's unneccesary to say that an ideology is based on the promotion of a belief.

In case you all think I'm fighting something imaginary, here is Brittanica's definition, completely incorrect: White supremacy, beliefs and ideas purporting natural superiority of the lighter-skinned, or “white,” human races over other racial groups.

I still cannot understand from your post what part of the article should be changed to what material, and on what source material that change should be based. It might be beneficial for you to register an account and make the changes after having met the requirements for editing this page. If you do not register an account, consider placing the text you which to insert "into quotes"

   or a box

on this talk page. Also please sign your posts with four tildes to help archiving and maintenance of this page. Thanks. Edaham (talk) 00:46, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

I also propose the deletion of the alternative title: "white supremacism". Supremacism isn't technically a word. White supremacism is even more fringe. 71.161.203.168 (talk) 04:42, 6 May 2017 (UTC)John Dee

Not done: This appears to be a widely used term in current usage in most forms of news media. i.e. [this Washington post article] among numerous others. Edaham (talk) 05:04, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

I looked at that last night, and remember thinking it was just a commentary. I can't view it now without paying. It has only been used in left wing publications. Supremacism is not in any dictionary. It has a place, I'll give it that, but it shouldn't go around replacing real words when they do quite fine. A google search for white supremacism brings up 60,000 results. The same search before 2015 brings up 4,000 results. Supremacism has 228,000 results. That is a paltry amount of uses. It was created and remains used only by the far left. Supremacism has a use, but it shouldn't go around replacing every acy- with ism. 71.161.203.168 (talk) 14:33, 6 May 2017 (UTC)John Dee