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June 13

Persian pronunciation question

I'm trying to get a better grasp of Persian phonotactics, and I haven't been able to find an answer to this question elsewhere: how would a word like "esm-hā" ("names") be pronounced? Would it take an epenthetic vowel – [esemhɒː] or [esmehɒː] – or a syllabic nasal – [esm̩hɒː] – or something else? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 02:42, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, it doesn't take that vowel. It has only two syllables: [esm] and [ha]. And [m] is not nasal. Omidinist (talk) 03:38, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Omidinist: [m] is not nasal. What do you mean?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:30, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're right. It is nasal. It was a slip. Omidinist (talk) 09:47, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Lazar Taxon: See here. This cluster is perfectly divided as VCC-CV.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:28, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

However, on p. 330 of the same book ~~(it seems this page cannot been accessed, though)~~ it is stated that [h] of the plural marker is often (or usually?) elided after a consonant.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:02, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is not true. Sometimes colloquially it happens. Omidinist (talk) 10:48, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Are you Persian? In any case the author seems to be a recognized expert of the language so she must know what she's saying. She hasn't specified, though, at what degree that elision is widespread.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:15, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am Persian, and the author of that book seems to be Persian too, or from Iranian parents. Would you please provide a picture of the page you are referring to. I am sure of what I am saying. Omidinist (talk) 11:38, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here. (It seems different scans of the same book have different pages accessible.)--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:28, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Its application is definitely colloquial. The author must have mentioned this somewhere. Omidinist (talk) 13:13, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese cat

Watching this video[1] and they show a cat that costs 918,000 yen, or appropriately $8300 USD. Does the information tag contain any hints on why it's so expensive? It it perhaps a rare breed of some kind? Scala Cats (talk) 04:58, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 October 29#Is Grumpy Cat really the world's most valuable animal?. 79.73.131.8 (talk) 08:34, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is a kitten in a pet store, not the embodiment of a meme. Rojomoke (talk) 09:22, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are hypoallergenic cats, which produce less dander or less of a certain protein that causes allergic reactions: [2]. I could see a cat that was bred or genetically engineered to be even less of a problem for allergy sufferers going for that much. StuRat (talk) 17:28, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What is the relevance of that intervention? The OP asked a specific question about the content of the sign on the cat's enclosure. That's why this is on the Language desk. If you can't address yourself to the specific question asked, please refrain from posting. --Viennese Waltz 17:48, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto, VW. Ditto.—Nelson Ricardo (talk) 04:18, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is there not a language desk for Japanese? And I think StuRat's contribution is relevant. Although they do not understand the sign, they are able to provide potentially useful information. -Sb2001 (talk) 16:37, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

German Adverbial Conectors/Prepositions

I've been looking for a while for a table in Internet that has all "Satzverbindungen" I found a good example in a book but I wouldn't know how to label it so I can google it successfully.

I can only get small fragments of the table but not complete, I can google "list of conectors", "list of adverbial conectors", but never the whole table This is the table.

I want to know this because the Table in the book has not every word. And I would be interested as well in finding this table in distinct languages... 81.173.209.39 (talk) 08:16, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The words in columns 2, 3, and 4 of that table would usually be called conjunctions in English, while the ones in column 5 are prepositions. AnonMoos (talk) 09:31, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The interesting thing is that prepositions are connected through the connectors logically somehow. And even though I know some are prepositions and others are adverbs, I was looking for a more abstract term that represents this idea. 2.247.243.203 (talk) 15:31, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Woe is me

Why is the phrase "Woe is me" and not "Woe am I"? †dismas†|^(talk) 17:27, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/17/magazine/on-language-woe-is-not-me.html --212.235.66.73 (talk) 17:49, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

https://books.google.com/books?id=XXwVAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA91&dq=omission --212.235.66.73 (talk) 18:05, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oy vey ist mir!' ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:55, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The only reason for saying "Woe am I" (that you prefer to "Woe is me"), is because of "Who am I" (as a question whose answer is for example "I am the king"), but you can say also "Who is me" (as a question whose answer is for example "The king is me"), so I can't figure out why you prefer "Woe am I" to "Woe is me". Instead of you, I would have asked, why the phrase is "Woe is me" and not "Woe is I". HOTmag (talk) 20:42, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I rather like the expression used her - https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/296656/woe-is-me-what-does-it-mean - calling it an "extra-grammatical idiom." It may not follow the strict rules of grammar, but that doesn't make it incorrect. Wymspen (talk) 20:56, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Woe am I" makes no sense (it would mean "I am pain"). "Woe is me" means something like "to me there is woe", or "I have woe". "Woe is me" comes from Yiddish וויי איז מיר (vey iz mir), similar to Russian горе мне, and German weh mir. The phrase uses the dative to show possession or a state, a common grammatical feature of German and the Slavic languages. Other examples: mir ist kalt (German, "I am cold"), мне жарко (Russian, "I'm hot"). —Stephen (talk) 23:38, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Howard Beale seems to agree that "Woe is us" means only "woe to us", not "woe are we". InedibleHulk (talk) 23:43, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

"Woe is me" comes from Yiddish -- of course it doesn't: it appears in KJV bible, in Shakespeare, and as far back as Middle English. --5.29.249.116 (talk) 07:07, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

According to the OED it was used in Old English (in the form 'wa is me'); there's a citation from Ælfric of Eynsham (c. 955 – c. 1010), giving it as a translation of the Latin 'heu mihi'. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 09:18, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, all modern English object pronouns (except "it") originally come from Old English datives. The "-m" ending in "him", "whom", "them" was dative in Old English. So "me" was originally a dative pronoun (though in most of our attested Old English texts "me" has become accusative also, displacing the original 1st person singular accusative pronoun "mec")... AnonMoos (talk) 11:45, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"them" was dative in Old English -- There was no "them" in Old English grammar#Pronouns, only "him" (for singular and plural alike). "Them" is a much later (Middle English) borrowing from Norse. --212.235.66.73 (talk) 12:07, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That really does not affect my basic point -- Old English had the definite article dative masculine and plural þǣm, and Old Norse þeim (the source of modern "them") was also dative masculine and plural... AnonMoos (talk) 12:23, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Your "quote" misrepresented what I actually said above. I didn't say that "them" was found in Old English, I said that the "-m" ending found in the modern English words "him", "whom", and "them" was a dative inflection in Old English. AnonMoos (talk) 10:55, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that the "-m" ending found in the modern English word "them" isn't the dative ending from Old English, but the cognate dative ending from Old Norse. You may call me a point-scoring pedant if you like --46.121.242.252 (talk) 17:44, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that it's a "distinction without a difference" in this context... AnonMoos (talk) 03:28, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The term dates to PIE, it is hardly Yiddish. μηδείς (talk) 17:54, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You mean the ancient Proto-Indo-Europeans were known to go around saying “wai h₁ésti h₁moi!” ? I didn't know that we had reconstructed entire sentences before. —Stephen (talk) 00:37, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, of course everyone knows there were no such things as actual sentences in PIE, just asterisked wordlists. And I said term, you point-scoring pedant, not phrase. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/woe#Etymology μηδείς (talk) 04:20, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

According to Google, you're the tenth person to call a fellow netizen a point-scoring pedant. You're also the #1 hit (but that glory is fleeting). Cheers! InedibleHulk (talk) 05:05, June 15, 2017 (UTC)

You have no idea how long I have been waiting to win the internet. μηδείς (talk) 22:33, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@InedibleHulk: You the real MVP, answering important questions nobody asked. I would have just rolled my eyes and thought medeis was being unnecessarily combative and testy, but you went the extra mile. Thanks! SemanticMantis (talk) 19:47, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Vae mihi" exists in Latin although I suppose it might be translation of a Hebrew phrase. But "vae" definitely takes the dative in Latin anyway ("vae victis"). Adam Bishop (talk) 10:34, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Stephen G. Brown -- People have definitely reconstructed phrases as existing in proto-Indo-European, such as ḱlewos n̩dʰgʷʰitom for "imperishable fame". Entire sentences would be verging on Schleicher's fable territory... AnonMoos (talk) 11:06, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, @AnonMoos:, I was aware of that phrase and spent a half hour this morning looking for its reflexes, but could only find the Greek kleos aphthiton, otherwise I'd've posted it earlier. The putative *ne h2oiu kwid Fortson is only attested in Greco-Armenian, so its PIE age is dubious, if not unimaginable. Do you know to which other IE branches reflexes of *ḱlewos n̩dʰgʷʰitom might be attributed? μηδείς (talk) 22:33, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There's śravaḥ akṣitam in Sanskrit (that's all I know). I long ago listened to Calvert Watkins give basically the same talk at two separate linguistics conferences, but my memories of the details are quite faded now... The book How to Kill a Dragon may cover this. AnonMoos (talk) 03:28, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I figured it was in Dragon, but sold the book as part of a lot, and could not find the Sanskrit through Amazon or Google Books. Of course not and ouk are also extremely close, if not identical. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 22:13, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

June 14

ringworm

Ringworm is a misnomer; there are no worm of any sort involved. But how did it get its English name?

I'm assuming that the name "ringworm" was coined before the advent of microbiology and thus whoever coined the term did not know that it was a fungal infection. But why did they assume that it was some sort of a worm? Why a "ring" worm? Was it confused with a worm, e.g. dracunculiasis, that causes similar symptoms? Scala Cats (talk) 20:57, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Ring" because the skin lesions are circular or ring-shaped. - Nunh-huh 22:22, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

According to Hidden Secrets to Curing Ringworm by Brian Salt (p. 8), the worms were thought to travel in laps under the skin, creating the circular marks. In 1837, an unnamed Polish doctor discovered that no worms were involved. Alansplodge (talk) 23:39, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A more reliable source may be Roots of Ecology: Antiquity to Haeckel by Frank N. Egerton (p. 180), which identifies Robert Remak as the Polish doctor (in Berlin) referred to, although David Gruby (in Paris) was also working on fungal diseases at the same time and was the first to identify the ringworm fungus. Alansplodge (talk) 23:49, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out, and in between they spin about —Tamfang (talk) 07:06, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Or maybe nobody ever believed in worms; Fungi as Human Pathogens from the University of Hawaii says:

"Ringworm and Related Dermatophytes... The Greeks called it Herpes (=circular or ring form) and the Romans associated the disease with the larval stage of Tinea, the genus for clothes moth. The two names were eventually combined to "ringworm". Although the actual cause of ringworm was not known until the early 1800s, the practice of segregating infected individuals to prevent spread of the disease indicated that there was knowledge that this disease was contagious and prevalent, and could be passed from person to person was known prior to the cause of infection".

So the "worm" element may just be a reference to the Latin name Tinea after the Tinea moth (the ringworm lesions were supposed to resemble the holes made by clothes-moth larvae). Alansplodge (talk) 08:55, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Or they did believe in worms, just somewhere else Lectonar (talk) 09:02, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The 'worms crawling laps under skin' thing is not so crazy. Lots of leaf miners are broadly wormy things that crawl around inside a leaf and leave distinctive and distinguishing patterns. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:43, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

June 15

Are the words Muspell, Muspiell, Musburg, and Musbury related?

Are the words Muspell, Muspiell, Musburg, and Musbury related? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.78.220.21 (talk) 14:44, 15 June 2017 (UTC) --172.78.220.21 (talk) 14:45, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Checking our articles, Muspell or Muspelheim is the realm of the fire giants in Norse mythology, and may come from 'Mund-spilli, "world-destroyers", "wreck of the world"'. Musbury is a village in Devon and the name means 'borough by or near mosses"; Musburg is probably the German equivalent. The only "Muspiell" I can find is an antagonist in the online RPG Vindictus, and that means the name was made up by the creators. I would guess it was probably influenced by the Norse word. Rojomoke (talk) 18:15, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No etymology is given for Musbury in Wikipedia; did you find that somewhere else?

As for Musburg, there is no article of that name in the English or the German Wikipedia. But at Musbury Castle is a stub article in bad English which says that "'Musburg' is most likely the German translation. Due to the fact it is also referenced in the Middle ages and means exactly the same thing." I did also find "Müsberg" mentioned in the German Wikipedia as an old spelling of de:Moosburg (Federsee), and it says that name derives from a word meaning moorland. --76.71.5.114 (talk) 19:52, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The "borough by or near mosses" is in Musbury Castle. Rojomoke (talk) 20:32, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, so it is. I only read that after noticing that it wasn't in Musbury. Silly me. --76.71.5.114 (talk) 21:07, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Don't go by what was said in Musbury Castle (said since I have just removed it), because the etymology there was original research added by the IP-hopper who started this thread (see page history of article). An IP-hopper who for six years or more now (there is a clear track all the way back to 2011) has added their own home-grown theories to a very large number of articles here (always without sources), theories about everything starting with Mu*, regardless of time period, deriving from a middle-high German wording meaning "mosses". - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 21:48, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I found in a dictionary of surnames the idea that the Mus in names like Musgrave, with Musbury mentioned, is from mus meaning mouse, or from a byname (nickname) meaning mouse. That sounds plausible but these things are never certain. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:21, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A much more probable origin in names of Scandinavian origin, or in areas that at times were heavily influenced by Scandinavian/North Germanic languages is IMHO that "mus*" comes from "mosse", meaning marsh/bog (and not mosses, as the IP seems to think, confusing two Scandinavian words with each other: "mosse", a type of wetland, and "mossa", a type of plant). - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 16:27, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Which vs. that

I believe the following to be correct, but am unsure:

The same is true in Chinese chess which has an elephant piece ("Xiàng", 象) that serves as a defensive piece, being the only one that may not cross the river dividing the game board.

Comments/suggestions welcome. -- 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8C81:A23:E9F2:E55E (talk) 21:06, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The words are correct, but the "which" clause is a "non-restrictive" (also called "non-defining") clause, so it should be set off with a comma before "which". --76.71.5.114 (talk) 21:10, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, which starts a new clause. You can wrap commas around it. Which provides unnecessary information, whilst that introduces strictly relevant and essential points. That changes the meaning of something, whilst which does not. -Sb2001 (talk) 21:30, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

But see English relative clauses#That or which for non-human antecedents. Using "which" to introduce "strictly relevant and essential points"—i.e., to introduce a restrictive clause—has a long history in high-level literature, so avoiding "which" for restrictive clauses is merely a preference of some prescriptivists and is not necessary for high-register English. Loraof (talk) 23:56, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand correctly, The same is true in Chinese chess is an independent clause, while the rest is a non-restrictive (compound?) clause. -- 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8C81:A23:E9F2:E55E (talk) 21:58, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, "The same is true in Chinese chess" is an independent clause. The rest is a sequence of nested dependent clauses. Since there is only one independent clause, the sentence is not a compound sentence; since it has at least one dependent clause, it is a complex sentence. The last two dependent clauses are restrictive, while the first one is non-restrictive. Since the dependent clauses are nested, the first one includes the entire rest of the sentence. Loraof (talk) 00:10, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I usually know the correct grammar, but often don't understand why it is correct. — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8C81:A23:E9F2:E55E (talk) 15:20, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

June 16

antonyms

looking for antonyms of "control"68.151.25.115 (talk) 04:52, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You've been provided links to thesaurus websites in your prior questions about antonyms. Are these sites not giving you the answers you want? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Louis Pierre Vossion

Can someone help me translate the handwritten texts in this image? Please place in the image description as well. Is Louis Pierre Vossion in the assembled group?--AlohaKavebear (talk) 06:24, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

- Îles Hawaï - Mgr Gulstan Ropert, des Sacrés-Coeurs de Picpus, est depuis 37 ans dans les îles. Il fut l'ami du R.P. Damien, martyr. - L'évêque catholique d'Honolulu - le doyen des Missionnaires (58 ans dans les îles). Le chef de la Division Navale du Pacifique et l'Etat-Major du Croiseur Français Duguay-Trouin, Nov. 1898 - (L. Vossion (?) Consul de France (?). Akseli9 (talk) 06:49, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong ship - must be French cruiser Duguay-Trouin (1873) for which we have no article. Rmhermen (talk) 12:01, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, Louis Vossion is not on the picture. Perhaps he's the one who took the picture? Akseli9 (talk) 06:54, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the file is "Documents iconographiques rassemblés par Louis Pierre Vossion", i.e."pictorial documents assembled by Louis Pierre Vossion". So, the picture may simply have come into his possession in his role as French consul. --Xuxl (talk) 12:35, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"centralized" antonym

i often hear "decentralized" computing etc. but isnt there an antonym to "centralized" without using a prefix?68.151.25.115 (talk) 10:48, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Distributed"? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:54, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Dis-" is a prefix. Rojomoke (talk) 11:53, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not in its English usage. Distribute comes from the Latin distribuere, where the dis- is a prefix (meaning "asunder"). But in English you can't knock off the prefix and have a sensible verb - to tribute, anyone? Phil Holmes (talk) 14:54, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How about "localized"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Or regionalized. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:33, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See: Distributed computing — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8C81:A23:E9F2:E55E (talk) 15:42, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of "eighth"

In everyday speech, we simply say it to rhyme with faith. However, a few Wikipedia articles say that this word is property pronounced with a t+th. Any sources saying that this is still the standard pronunciation?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:59, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have sources to hand, but I can certainly report that I pronounce it /eɪtθ/ even in fast speech. --Trovatore (talk) 19:12, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto on pronunciation. I checked four dictionaries, all giving /eɪtθ/, none giving /eɪθ/. I'm not sure I've ever heard /eɪθ/. -- Elphion (talk) 19:33, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(added) American Heritage gives both pronunciations. -- Elphion (talk) 19:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary gives both for the US but not for Britain. Loraof (talk) 20:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The only pronunciation I have commonly heard in England has the t+th sound. If I heard it as ryming with faith, I would assume that someone with a lisp was trying to say "ace" Wymspen (talk) 20:01, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Must be a regional thing. I only pronounce it to rhyme with faith. (I grew up in upstate New York and upstate South Carolina.) Loraof (talk) 20:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The only pronunciation I have ever heard in America has the t+th sound (U.S. south central, southwest, midwest, west). —Stephen (talk) 20:20, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here in the UK, only /eɪtθ/ is correct (per OED). No-one would rhyme it with faith unless they had a speech impediment or possibly were speaking very quickly. Dbfirs 20:46, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(Detroit) I also pronounce it the "t+th" way. However, note that it may not be easy to hear the diff, so that if somebody hears it in childhood as just "th", they may start to say it that way, especially before they see how it's spelled. Same with similar words, like "heighth" (although "height" is more formal). StuRat (talk) 21:54, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such word as "heighth". Height is not simply formal, it's the only version. Unless you're an American, and then anything goes. Akld guy (talk) 22:24, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, some Cockneys say ""heighth" - it's used in A Clockwork Orange (the book): "dressed in the very heighth of fashion" [3]. But you're correct, it's incorrect. Alansplodge (talk) 01:04, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Being from Detroit, that would make me a 'merkin. :-) StuRat (talk) 22:50, 16 June 2017 (UTC) [reply]

Do you even comprehend what you were attempting to do? That is, mislead the unwitting reader not proficient in English that "heighth" is merely an alternative to the correct "height". You are either an uncaring idiot or one of those Americans bent on perverting everything in the rest of the world to the American way. I strongly suspect you are not an idiot. So stop with the misleading. There are rules in English. Your localized perversion used by a tiny fraction of the world's population is no substitute for what the rules of English say. Akld guy (talk) 03:14, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So Americans may make up a small percentage of the world's population — but something close to two thirds of native English speakers. That said, "heighth" is not standard in American English either, so even if we did want to make the world speak AmE, it wouldn't include "heigth". --Trovatore (talk) 07:42, 17 June 2017 (UTC) [reply]

I did not include all Americans in "tiny fraction of the world's population". Did you take the time to read what I wrote and ponder it for a moment or two, or just jump to a kneejerk defensive reaction? Akld guy (talk) 00:15, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It may not be standard in the UK these days, but the OED gives it a British history going back to the 13th century:

c1290 S. Eng. Leg. I. 266/190 Fram þe eorþe heo was op i-houe þe heiȝþe of fet þreo.

Later examples cited:

1667 Milton Paradise Lost viii. 413 To attaine The highth and depth of thy Eternal wayes.
1673 J. Ray Observ. Journey Low-countries 76 Stakes or Poles of about a mans highth.
1809 J. Roland Amateur of Fencing 22 It depends on the person's heighth.
1890 J. D. Robertson Gloss. Words County of Gloucester Hecth, height.

--Antiquary (talk) 09:05, 17 June 2017 (UTC) [reply]

And on checking the British Newspaper Archive I find they break down the number of hits for heighth like this:

1700-1749: 58
1750-1799: 685
1800-1849: 1101
1850-1899: 1310
1900-1949: 610
1950-1999: 23

Difficult to draw statistically meaningful results from that without knowing how many newspapers they looked at in each period, but at any rate it looks like heighth was not too uncommon in British English up to the early 20th century. --Antiquary (talk) 09:40, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And I find over 5 million Ghits for heighth. Far less than height, but still rather significant usage. That, along with the historic usage, would seem to qualify it as a "variant, now chiefly AmE". StuRat (talk) 12:26, 18 June 2017 (UTC) [reply]

Am I correct in saying this is the only English word where "th" is pronounced /tθ/? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:48, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know, but no counterexample comes to mind. Actually I can't even think of another example of the /tθ/ cluster, with any spelling. Seems like it ought to be spelled eigtth. --Trovatore (talk) 02:22, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean with minimal departure from current standard spelling conventions, it should be "eightth"... AnonMoos (talk) 02:54, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Whoops, right. I thought something looked funny but couldn't find it. --Trovatore (talk) 03:23, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Naughth?--Wikimedes (talk) 15:01, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

While the words width and breadth are spelt with -dth, I think the pronunciation is /tθ/. —Stephen (talk) 22:25, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Where I come from, the "d" in those words is enunciated. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:28, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, who says "with" and "breath" for those words ? StuRat (talk) 12:23, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Probably the same ones who say "strenth" instead of "strength". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:31, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless, even if these words were spoken that way (which they're not), this would not be a counter-example for my question. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:53, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

True. For that matter, how many English words end in "hth"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:01, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The answer appears to be 13, with 9 of them being words ending in "eighth" and the other 4 being non-standard spellings as discussed earlier.[4] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:10, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Joining the chorus: We do not rhyme it with faith in Western Canada, either. t-th is it. Mingmingla (talk) 02:10, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Midwest: we say eight-th, although we've heard eigh-th in some regions. We also sometimes hear height-th rather than height, but that's considered a hick expression. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:40, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I, an AMERICKAN, and say eight-th, but I have heard eith. 14:57, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

June 18

"pendejera" (Venezuelan slang?)

2017 June 16, “Parecemos, pero no somos, y si fuimos, no somos más”, in El Nacional[5]:
Así se hace cómplice necesario y responsable del intento desesperado para engañar, confiando en que esos millones de ciudadanos hambreados, maltratados, gaseados, apaleados y reprimidos, incluidos los pocos maduristas que reverencian sin cavilar, síntoma clarísimo de pendejera vocacional, van a tragarse semejante fábula retorcida sin aviso ni protesto.

What does this mean? "Pendejera" is the name of the plant Solanum torvum according to es.wikipedia but that doesn't seem to be the meaning here. DTLHS (talk) 02:07, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This source translates "pendejera" as: cowardice, unmanliness ... lack of character, namby-pambiness — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8C81:A23:E9F2:E55E (talk) 03:20, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"pendejera - English Translation - Word Magic Spanish-English Dictionary". www.wordmagicsoft.com.

I wonder whether that source applies to Venezuelan colloquial Spanish though. Obviously, pendejera is derived from "pendejo". That Wiktionary entry lists various meanings, and "coward" is attributed to various countries, but not to Venezuela which is specifically listed for only one meaning there: "dickhead (stupid person)". Similarly, Spanish Wiktionary only mentions Venezuela for the meaning "falto de inteligencia, entendimiento o astucia".[6] In this Chilean article the Venezuelan linguist Maylen Sosa explains the Venezuelan connotations of "pendejo", "a mild insult to disqualify someone". Perhaps I'd translate "pendejera vocacional" as "vocational stupidity" or "vocational dickheadery", but not "vocational cowardice" ---Sluzzelin talk 09:34, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

German translation of a Kennedy quote

Could somebody give me a good German translation of the following phrase from this speech by Kennedy: "yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand mankind's final war" — What would be the most literal equivalent to hand here?--Erdic (talk) 19:23, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

First thought: I do not think it will be done with just translating "hand" here....the whole sentence would be something like "stay your hand, knave" e.g....with the meaning of "am Handeln gehindert sein, werden". Lectonar (talk) 19:32, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

One translation found in several books [7] has "das den Ausbruch des letzten Krieges der Menschheit noch hemmt" (for "that stays the hand of mankind's final war"). This seems a fairly decent translation. What makes the phrase difficult to understand (to German non-native speakers of English) is maybe not so much the meaning of "hand", but the transitive use of stay in the sense of "keep sth. back". Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:18, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I found it difficult to understand too, but the JFK Library confirms that you've lost an "of" in that quote; "stays the hand of mankind's final war" makes more sense. Alansplodge (talk) 20:30, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

June 19

Job descriptions

In the last century, the Surveyor of the Fabric of Westminster Abbey was Doctor Donald Buttress, while the Archbishop of Manila was Cardinal Sin. Do people's surnames influence their choice of occupation? 86.176.19.17 (talk) 09:53, 19 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]