Talk:Wild Mountain Thyme

The clean-up

Thank you to whoever fixed this page. It was very poorly written before. I was about to get around to it myself.

by Wild Mountain Thyme 22:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Irish or Scots?

I believe the facts are as follows (and I have no axe to grind...I just want to get the facts right):

• Wild Mountain Thyme is not a traditional song. It was composed by Francis McPeak (and his father).
• The McPeak family are Irish
• The published version in my possession attributes the words and music to Francis McPeak (Alasdair Clayre, 100 Folk Songs and New Songs, Wolfe Publishing Ltd, London, 1968)
• The copyright is owned by the Eglish Folk Dance and Song Society, who presumably published it on behalf of McPeak.
• It is often erroniously believed to be a traditional song in the public domain, but is actually a composed song with a copyright owner.
• It is very clearly based on the words and music of "The Braes of Balquhidder" by Robert Tannahill.
• The Braes of Balquhidder is a Scots song describing an identifiable geographical location in Scotland.

Is this right? Bluewave (talk) 20:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

• It seems very clear from comparison of the lyrics and melody that regardless whether McPeak holds a 1957 copyright or not, this song is tantamount to plagiarism of the original and traditional 'Braes of Balquhidder' and was/is quite clearly an de-Scots'd version of the original. The description of this as 'often considered a variant' is incredibly naive and hardly appropriate as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.56.237.114 (talk) 04:15, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

• • Based on the aforementioned, I decided to be BOLD in updating the article. I highly encourage a review of the content, as I am happy to oblige in editing, but by no means am perfect. A lot of the edits were simple logical conclusions: Reinforcement of the understanding that this song is not simply a 'variant', that it is by tune and by word a near copy, and that the material which is suggested to be it's basis was not only available but also long-standing at the time he modified it (as opposed to 'when he wrote it').

The tune was most certainly NOT composed by McPeake, as it is and was an ancient Scots air even in Tannahill's time! Robert Tannahill clearly wrote & published the lyrics, and they were included twice here: "The Braes o' Balquihidder" appeared twice in R.A. Smith's Scottish Minstrel (1821-1824) - Vol I, p. 49 and Vol. IV, p. 89. Furthermore, in a BBC Radio interview in 1957, Francie McPeake Snr, admitted he learned the song from an Uncle, and made no claims to have written or composed it! And as a side note, the term "lassie", meaning a girl/young woman is not used at all in Ireland, being purely a Scots or more correctly, a "Lallans" (Lowland Scots) word! The Irish term for a young woman is "Coleen", as in the lyrics to the song, The Star of County Down: "From a boreen green, came a sweet coleen, and she smiled as she passed me by." 85.211.214.26 (talk) 23:08, 1 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.211.222.211 (talk) 15:10, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the verbatim copy of this last paragraph from the article itself. This information is very interesting and really needs to be in the article. However, it needs to be incoprorated into the article in a non-biased, encyclopedic way. Most importantly, it needs to have reliable, third party inline references supporting it. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 21:36, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd second that. It would make sense of the relationship between WMT and "Braes o' Balquihidder" but needs to be cited. For instance, is there a source for the age of the tune and for McPeake's own comments about the song? It would be great if we could add them. By the way, this is not that unusual! There are lots of examples of folk song collectors registering the copyright of the material that they collected. There are also more blatant things like Paul Simon copyrighting the guitar accompaniment to "Scarborough Fair", that he learnt from Martin Carthy. Bluewave (talk) 07:40, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Coming late to this party, but the linguistic claim made above here is on very shaky ground. Ireland is not linguistically or culturally homogeneous, and in particular when talking about Northern Ireland one needs to be aware of the influence of Ulster Scots. Mhardcastle (talk) 18:23, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

A little more detail here:

As noted above, the lyrics are derived directly from "The Braes of Balquidder" by Scottish poet Robert Tannahill (1774-1810) of Paisley. Tannahill's melody is probably an earlier traditional air - he followed Robert Burns' interest in collecting and adapting traditional songs, and indeed he seems to have based this one on an even earlier song "The Braes o' Bowhether" - there is no evidence or local tradition that Tannahill ever actually visted Balquidder or indeed anywhere else in the Highlands ! ("Caller Herrin" is one of his better known compositions, also set to a traditional air, "The Cameronian Rant").

Please pay close attention to the following, and decide for yourself if there was any "plagiarism" by McPeake?

The Braes of Balquidder by Robert Tannahill (1774-1810)

Appeared in R.A. Smith's "Scottish Minstrel" (1821 - 1824) and "Scottish Songs," c. 1850, ed. George Farquhar Graham. - in "The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin", the notes say the song was set to music by R.A. Smith himself, which.may or may not be quite accurate since it is known that Tannahill set the tunes himself to many of his other songs. Others suggest the melody is based on an old Scottish traditional tune 'The Three Carls o' Buchanan".

Let us go, lassie, go Tae the braes o' Balquhidder

Where the blaeberries grow 'Mang the bonnie bloomin' heather

Whar the deer and the rae Lichtly bounding thegither

Sport the lang summer day On the braes o' Balquhidder

I will twine thee a bower By the clear silver fountain

And I'll cover it o'er Wi' the flowers o' the mountain

I will range through the wilds And the deep glens sae dreary

And return wi' their spoils To the bower o' my dearie

When the rude wintry win' Idly raves round our dwellin'

And the roar o' the linn On the night breeze is swellin'

So merrily we'll sing As the storm rattles o'er us

Till the dear shielin' rings Wi' the light liltin' chorus

Now the summer is in prime Wi' the flowers richly bloomin'

An' the wild mountain thyme A' the moorlands is perfumin'

To our dear native scenes Let us journey thegither

Where glad innocence reigns 'Mang the braes o' Balquhidder

I doubt if any reasonable person, when comparing these lyrics to McPeake's claimed "composition", would not side with the long departed Robert Tannahill, in deciding who robbed who? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.211.183.160 (talk) 00:13, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I trust the following will clarify further: Addendum:

From: Robert Tannahill, Poems And Songs And Correspondence. With Life And Notes, ed. David Semple, 1876

( I can post scans of the actual published work here, if permitted!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.211.183.160 (talk) 00:25, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Lastly, may I suggest, that the page ought to feature McPeakes claimed composition in direct comparison to Tannahill's published version, and let the people decide who wrote the original! I simply hate plagiarism, and the dead have no one to shout for them! Here endeth the lesson. 85.211.183.160 (talk) 00:39, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Illustrating the problem of Public Domain content in a Copyright world.

My grandmother sang this to my mother as a lullabye in the thirties. Being no student of history she had never understood the Gaelic words and had simply substuited the corresponding English word. They both sang it to me in the early fifties, and I learned it closer to the traditional in meaning, but closer to the Irish copy in the use of English words.

Music evolves, naturally. Songs got passed from town to town and a hundred years later there were many local variants. Traditional folk music, when incorporated into some newer language or format, still is traditional, and therefore should remain public domain.

What is the purpose of Copyrights, anyway? To serve the public interest by fostering invention, innovation and artistic creativity. We could live in a world with no copyrights, they only exist because of the tradition of common law. I think that when copyrights are extended past the death of the creator, that work must become part of mankind's common heritage. Corporations and agents and managers make millions off copyrights, and sometimes the artist gets some of that.

When it comes to traditional folk music, critics and reviewers should decry and revile anyone who tries to claim authorship of public domain materials. Real artists will understand and appreciate the difference between a new work and a warming over or an existing work.

In the present dilemma, we see that the modern copy is strongly copied in rhythm, rhyming, tone and style. The only difference is half the poem was thrown away. Compare the alleged copyrighted version with the recordings of Braes o' Balquidder by Alma Gluck in 1917.

The modern version is a virtual copy in every way but the Gaelic accent and the Old Scottish words.

Similar problems exist in American folk and blues. For instance, there is the laughable "copyright" claim to "Sweet Home Chicago" granted in the sixties I believe, a full fifties years after being public domain and recorded as "Sweet Home Kokomo". It is a know fact that Robert Johnson never copyrighted anything in his life. All published contemporary versions of his music are sans copyright. The people who copyright songs after the author's death are ghouls, sucking the souls of the author's memory.

It seems I can not log in, so I guess you will just have to consider my words without knowing my identity. This is fair, as my words should be judged on their own merits, not on the basis of my name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.31.184.170 (talk) 22:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC) First printed appearance I can find is "The Braes of Balquhither" in "Poems and songs, chiefly in the Scottish dialect By Robert Tannahill" published in 1815 by Gale, Curtis & Fenner of London, Constable of Edinburgh, and Crichton of Paisley, although presumably there was an ealier printed appearance (during Tannahill's lifetime). The first three verses of the McPeake version are very clearly derived from the first 4 lines of teh last verse and the first and second groupls of four lines in the first verse of Tannahill's version, and in fact it's very clear that McPeake picked up these three verses from a well-established oral tradition (I was taught the song in primary school, as a traditional song, and I left primary school quite some time before McPeake came up with "his" version; the words I was taught are what everyone sings today, not the 210 years old Tannajill words, and it's quite clear that oral passing on and the mutations it causes are the cause of most, if not all, of the differences between Tanahill's version and McPeake's). It is outrageous that the article continues to say that McPeake composed the song and it is not a traditional song. That there is a copyright dated 1957 is however a fact, no matter how outrageous some may consider that, but it is traditional for collectors to copyright the stuff they have collected so I personally don't object to that as long as it is not enforced in a manner that hampers the folk tradition (indeed many of scotlands songs would have been lost had they not been copyrighted by such collecters as Kennedy-Frazer and Cameron and organisations like An Comunn Gaidhealach). Michealt (talk) 19:01, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I don't understand the references to Gaelic words and gaelic accent in the anonymous comment added at 22:30, 22 August 2010. There are no Gaelic words in Tannahill's song. There is a Gaelic version dating from the 19th century (I believe the translation was made by Iain Cealaidh, but I can't find documentation for that). Oddly enough that has 4-line verses not 8, and a four line chorus, just like the McPeake version which apparently didn't exist until the best part of a century later. And (like the Tannahill original) it refers to flowers (fluraichean) not to thyme - obviously the oral tradition had already changed the structure but not yet all the words at the time the translation was made.Michealt (talk) 19:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Tune available at Yale?

The air The three carles o' Buchanan is said on Ceolas to be given in Neil Gow. A complete repository of original Scots slow Strathspeys and dances [microform] (the dances arranged as medleys) for the harp, pianoforte, violin and violoncello &c. ... Gow & Shepherd. p. 27. {{cite book}}: More than one of |at= and |page= specified (help) This is listed in Yale University's Beinecke Music library at call number M1746 G722 no.1 If someone is able to check it, that would be useful.LeadSongDog come howl! 07:09, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Removed lyric

In this edit the lyrics to The braes of Balquhither and its association to the air The Three Carles o' Buchanan were removed. It seems clear that to understand any folk song, its history of different versions is key. Since (as discussed above) there is an extant claim that WMT was an original composition rather than a derivative, it would also seem necessary to offer the reader a basis of comparison and discussion. Other perspectives would be welcome. LeadSongDog come howl! 21:59, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Reliable sources point out the derivation but the reader might find it useful to make their own comparison. We don't need the full text of both songs for that, but even quoting a verse and chorus is enough. The whole issue of the copyright status is a murky one, probably because it never seems to have been tested in court. There are plenty of cases of folk song collectors registering the copyright of songs that they've collected. We don't really know what McPeake claimed, other than the fact that he registered a copyright. As far as I know, he never tried to assert his rights under copyright law, despite the fact that various people have recorded the song as a "traditional" song. Nevertheless, the copyright is a citable fact and the obvious origin of the song from the earlier ballad is also. Bluewave (talk) 12:15, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I've returned the lyrics. Apart from anything else, simply deleting them without amending the rest of the article makes the whole final section incomprehensible.Mhardcastle (talk) 18:23, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Whatever the relationship between them, these are still two different songs, with different names and to my ear different melodies (at least the version that I heard of the Braes did not have the same melody as the WMT), so start an article on the Braes if you want to include the lyrics, but this article is not the place for the lyrics of a different song. As discussed above, a verifiable citation will suffice, and going further verges on OR. Anyway, Wikipedia policy discourages the inclusions of song lyrics in articles, even if they are not copyright - they should be included in Commons. Hohenloh ⁺ 03:28, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

It's already at {{wikisource|The Braes of Balquhither}}. Note the very title "The wild mountain thyme" is taken directly from Tannahill's text. It is not, however just a single line. Tannahill's lines

I will twine thee a bower,
By the clear siller fountain,
And I'll cover it o'er

Wi' the flowers o' the mountain;

were directly rendered into

I will build my love a bower,
By yon clear crystal fountain,
And on it I will pile

All the flowers of the mountain;

There's really no serious debate possible about the provenance of this lyric. LeadSongDog come howl! 05:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree with Hohenloh here. It's fair enough to say that the two songs are connected, providing it's supported by a reliable source. However, this article is not the place to reproduce the lyrics of "The Braes of Balquhither" - it seems to me that you would be better of creating an article for that song itself. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 23:22, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Finally I found this, which shows the sheet music for The Braes o'Balquither, with an accompaniment attributed thereon to John Davies, and complete with lyric. It is clearly the same vocal melody. LeadSongDog come howl! 19:10, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

The cataloguers at the University of Michigan show two versions. That one, OCLC 43310921 dated [1821-1823] and another, attributed to Robert Tannahill"

• Tannahill, R. [between 1818-1821] The Braes of Balquhither. New York: Published by J.A. & W. Geib, 23 Maiden Lane. OCLC 42881752

I would hope this clears up any lingering questions. LeadSongDog come howl! 19:57, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

It appears an editor is having difficulty reading the above sheet music. If we could get some explanation of the problem, perhaps we can help.LeadSongDog come howl! 03:51, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

It's not a question of being able or unable to read the sheet music. The deduction that "Wild Mountain Thyme" is a variant of "The Braes of Balquhidder" seems to be yours alone at the moment (unless I'm missing something here). None of the inline citations currently used to support this "fact" specifically say as much in plain text from a reliable source. To quote the Wikipedia guidelines on verifiability - "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." This same set of guidelines goes on to state "To show that it is not original research, all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable, published source appropriate for the content in question."

Just linking to a set of "Wild Mountain Thyme" sheet music and then some "Braes of Balquhidder" sheet music, as if to say "see?!", is not enough for Wikipedia. With all due respect, no one is concerned with your conclusions regarding the two songs and any similarities that they may have, we need to hear it from a reliable, published, third-party source or else it should be left out of the article. I hope that makes things clearer. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 09:16, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

The appropriate response to an uncited but credible assertion is to tag it with {{cn}} or one of the variations. In any case, there are numerous publications that address this attribution. On good one is Peter Mills. Hymns to the Silence: Inside the Words and Music of Van Morrison. pp. 193–194. ISBN 9780826429766.. Less explicit but more succinct is Oliver Trager (2004). Keys to the rain: the definitive Bob Dylan encyclopedia. Billboard Books. p. 684. ISBN 9780823079742. which simply lists

"Wild Mountain Thyme" (tradional/Frank McPeake) a.k.a. "The Braes of Balquhidder", "The Flowers of Peace", "Will You Go, Lassie, Go?"

There is no need for wp:OR or even wp:IAR to support this blindingly obvious assertion, as others have previously come to the same conclusion and published it. LeadSongDog come howl! 04:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

If you have a couple of reliable, third-party sources for this...why on earth have you not used them in the article?!! This seems crazy to me. Anything that reliably supports the claim that "Wild Mountain Thyme" and "The Braes of Balquhidder" are possibly variations of the same song should be used as an inline citation to support the relevant statements in the article -- especially as it's proven contentious. Honestly, this is just mind boggling to me. Please use those sources to support your facts by using them as inline citations. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 08:24, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Oddly, doing just that resulted in this revert], still claiming it is OR. LeadSongDog come howl! 04:24, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Written by Francis McPeake?

It is astounding that this page continues to promote the clear falsehood that McPeake "wrote" this song in 1957, despite all the evidence to the contrary, and that such a claim amounts to obvious plagiarism. I suppose this is exactly why Wiki is rightly regarded as such an untrustworthy source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.192.32 (talk) 13:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

What makes you say it is a "clear falsehood" that the song was written by McPeake? Both the English Folk Dance and Song Society and Alasdair Clayre, in his book 100 Folk Songs and New Songs, credit it to McPeake. If you have reliable, third-party evidence to suggest that this is not the case, why don't you present it...you know, rather than just moan about Wikipedia's reliability. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 10:28, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

As I said above, the evidence was deleted by an editor who seems to be attached to the McPeake fiction. It previously read:

“ The song is a reworded arrangement of The Braes of Balquhidder by Robert Tannahill (1774-1810), which was named after the braes, or hills, of Balquhidder near Lochearnhead. The Braes has the same melody and a similar lyric which includes the lines "Let us go, lassie, go" and "And the wild mountain thyme". A five-verse voice and piano arrangement was republished in New York circa 1818-1821. There it received a new arrangement, attributed to John Davies, in 1821. Various versions were published through the 19th century, until in 1925 Bruce, Clements & Co published a version in Edinburgh as The Braes o’ Balquidder. Part Song, unaccompanied, words by Tannahill ... Founded on the old air, with author credit also given to William B. Moonie. ”

Unless there is evidence that McPeake was a supercentenarian when he performed on the BBC, the conclusion is simple arithmetic.See also pp.182-185 of OCLC 262462998. LeadSongDog come howl!> 20:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Would it not be fair to say that McPeake's version is an "arrangement" of a traditional air, and as such is copyrightable.58.8.155.173 (talk)