Talk:Gender dysphoria

Comments through edit notes

User:Florian Blaschke and User:Flyer22 Reborn knock it off. You are cluttering up my watchlist with this behavior. If you want to discuss content do it here. Jytdog (talk) 17:39, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Sorry about that, Jytdog. I was employing a single use of WP:Dummy edit. It was a simple statement that I did not feel the need to address on the talk page, especially since Florian Blaschke is aware that I do not like when editors engage in WP:Editorializing. I was not going to have a full discussion via edit summaries, which is against WP:Dummy edit. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:47, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Proposed change

In my opinion, the first two sentences are formulated in an unnecessarily imprecise and awkward, and possibly slightly misleading, way. To start (as all sources on the topic will tell you), the distress is not directly the result of a person's assigned sex, but specifically of a mismatch, namely between the externally assigned gender and the experienced gender identity. So why not simply write that? Then, unlike what the current text suggests, the problematic sex assignment is not necessarily identical with that assigned at birth. See, for example, the famous example of "John/Joan" (see also the article on Gender identity, section Nature vs. nurture). Finally, the second sentence talks about "these cases", which lacks a clearly identified antecedent in the first sentence. Below are the current text and a proposed replacement. 50.255.8.233 (talk) 20:03, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

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Current text:
Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID) is the dysphoria (distress) a person experiences as a result of the sex and gender they were assigned at birth. In these cases, the assigned sex and gender do not match the person's gender identity, and the person is transgender.

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Proposed text:
Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID) is the dysphoria (distress) a person experiences as a result of a mismatch between their gender identity as personally experienced and the gender as assigned to them by their environment (family, friends, teachers, ...), usually stemming from sex assignment at birth. A person whose gender identity does not match this assigned gender is transgender.

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Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 15:09, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

How does one go about to establish a consensus? Is there something like a "Call for Consensus"? 50.255.8.233 (talk) 17:34, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

I think you made a reasonable argument. I don't think it's necessary to create a new section just to establish consensus unless that breaks some Wikipedia rule or other; we can discuss it here. As to your proposed text, I would suggest tweaking and trimming it somewhat, as follows:

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Revised proposed text:

Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID) is the dysphoria (distress) a person experiences as a result of a mismatch between their gender identity and the gender attributed to them by others, usually stemming from sex assignment at birth. A person whose gender identity does not match this assigned gender is transgender.

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Funcrunch (talk) 17:47, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. I appreciate your effort to simplify the wording but have two minor issues with your revision. The first is that "by others" is vague—the distress arises when the transgender person experiences social pressure to conform to the attributed gender, which happens only when the "others" are an important part of their immediate environment. So I think "by their environment" is better than "by others". The second issue is that if you use "attributed" in the first sentence—which I think is better here than "assigned"—this should be echoed in the second sentence, "does not match this attributed gender".

The Great Leader of our country has decided, in His Unfathomable Wisdom, that it is better for his subjects if they cannot access Wikipedia. The method I use now to edit is only occasionally available to me; the next time I will be able to edit here may be days or even weeks from now. 50.255.8.233 (talk) 18:24, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the current wording, the reason I have stuck by "sex and gender" is because, as I stated here and here at Talk:Sex assignment, along with the assigned sex, comes the assigned gender. As we know, a person who is assigned male will usually be raised as a boy, and a person assigned female will usually be raised as a girl. Those with gender dysphoria not only express discontent with assigned sex, but also assigned gender. This is why "or" instead of "and" seemed too much like an exception to me. But then again, a transgender person might not have distress about their body; there are transgender people who state that, in terms of the sex and gender distinction, they are fine with their assigned sex because it's the assigned gender that bothers them rather their body and what others view as a male or female body. The aforementioned David Reimer case is a unique case since his original assigned sex/assigned gender was not the issue; it was the sex assignment that came afterward. And since Wikipedia currently defines sex assignment as an "at birth" matter (and so do most other sources), instead of as also being "a later" matter, I'm not sure that we should be challenging the "discontent with both the assigned sex and gender" aspect based on the Reimer case.

I think your proposed wording is too wordy. So I prefer Funcrunch's wording to yours. Stating "by environment" without "family, friends, teachers" is vaguer (more vague?) than stating "by others." And stating "family, friends, teachers" to clarify what "by environment" means is too wordy. But we also don't want people thinking that "assignment" means that anyone (such as a friend, acquaintance, etc.) can assign a sex/gender to a person (such as by simply calling the person a male or female, or a boy or a girl)...when what we are talking about is assignment at birth. So I propose dropping "as assigned to them by their environment" and "attributed to them by others." I don't think that either is needed. The following works fine: "Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID) is the dysphoria (distress) a person experiences as a result of a mismatch between their gender identity and assigned sex or gender. A person whose gender identity does not match their assigned sex or gender is transgender." This wording incorporates "or" so that "sex" and "gender" are either interpreted as synonyms or as distinct, and this covers the aforementioned exceptions. The only issue with this wording may be that it removes "at birth," but readers can click on the Sex assignment article to see "at birth," and sources don't typically support the "usually" wording. The "at birth" portion is simply part of the definition without the "usually" qualifier. This 2017 "Terminological Approaches in the European Context" source, from Cambridge Scholars Publishing, however, reports that the DSM-5 states "usually"; it says, "Individuals with gender dysphoria have a marked incongruence between the gender they have been assigned to (usually at birth, referred to as natal gender) and their experienced/expressed gender." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:13, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

If we use the terminology of "assigned gender" (as does the DSM-5 and is increasingly common), your objection of "at birth" being part of the definition (which is only true for the current version of the Sex assignment article in Wikipedia, not in general) disappears. And what better source for "usually" than the DSM-5 itself? For another source, if that should be necessary, the 2016 edition of the book Teaching for Diversity and Social Justice defines gender assignment by: "Gender assignment is the assignment of gender that typically occurs simultaneously with the assignment of sex at birth, ...". [My emphasis by underlining.] 50.255.8.233 (talk) 04:39, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

"At birth" is usually included in the definition, and this is what I stated. The aforementioned report on what the DSM-5 states also includes "at birth." The DSM-5 using the word usually does not trump the fact that the literature typically does not include the "usually" qualifier or similar. Furthermore, as been discussed times before at WP:Med, the DSM-5 does not trump what the overwhelming literature reports; it is still subject to the WP:Due weight policy, which is clear that we give most of our weight to what most of the literature states. The term assigned sex sex assignment is more prevalent in the literature than assigned gender gender assignment. So per this and what I stated above, I object to omitting it. In this case, it also makes more sense to use the name of the Wikipedia article instead of its WP:Alternative name. I stand by the proposed wording I made above, but I am willing to change it so that it includes "usually." So I now propose: "Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID) is the dysphoria (distress) a person experiences as a result of a mismatch between their gender identity and assigned sex or gender, the latter of which are usually assigned at birth." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:41, 6 August 2017 (UTC) Edit: Regarding the prevalence of terminology, regular Google and Google Books show sex assignment as more prevalent, but Google Scholar and Google Ngram are reporting differently. This is why we have WP:GOOGLEHITS and why Google Ngram (as noted in its Wikipedia article) has been criticized. Either way, I still think that "assigned sex or gender" should be retained. Google Trends shows "sex assignment" as more popular. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:31, 6 August 2017‎ (UTC)

Or: "Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID) is the dysphoria (distress) a person experiences as a result of a mismatch between their gender identity and assigned sex or gender. The assignment is usually made at birth."

But I think that my proposed wordings flow better without the "at birth" part, and it resolves your issue with the current lead giving the impression that gender dysphoria is solely an "at birth" matter. I understand that you want "assigned sex" removed as well, but I've noted why I don't agree with removing it and am suggesting compromises. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:53, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

If you compare (using Google Trends) "Assigned sex" versus "Assigned gender" you see a completely different picture. But I'm not sure how reliable this is; the flatlining looks suspicious.

My original proposal mentioned "sex assignment". The sole reason for my suggestion to remove this was to resolve the objection to the inclusion of the word "usually". At the moment, any remaining disagreement seems to be on stylistic issues. I still prefer my original proposal; although more wordy, I feel it reads more smoothly than your (Flyer22 Reborn's) alternative proposals. Actually, I think that also User:Funcrunch's revised proposed text is preferable to yours. The issues I had with it were truly minor. 50.255.8.233 (talk) 14:59, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it seems to be a stylistic issue. I still prefer my proposals. If you look at my first proposal, I only made slight alterations to Funcrunch's proposal; this includes changing "and the gender attributed to them by others" to "and assigned sex or gender" and changing "this assigned gender is transgender" to "their assigned sex or gender is transgender." And I was clear why I prefer my suggested wording. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:10, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I also cut out "usually stemming from sex assignment at birth." But as we can see, I reconsidered adding "usually" and mentioning "at birth." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:14, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

For the record, I am very much against the attempts to water down the parenthetical descriptor of dysphoria with words like "dissatisfaction" or "discomfort". TheValeyard (talk) 21:08, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

For the record I am against your use of personal attacks in your edit summaries. There is a HUGE difference between trying to water something down and using the actual, literal definition of dysphoria. We can either a) use the actual definition of dysphoria; or b) remove the parenthetical altogether. I'm removing it because apparently there is an issue with using definitions here. ‡ Єl Cid, Єl Caɱ̩peador ^ᐐT₳LKᐬ 00:02, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• Further, look at our article on dysphoria which is linked in the text, if you don't agree with dictionary and medical dictionary definitions. ‡ Єl Cid, Єl Caɱ̩peador ^ᐐT₳LKᐬ 00:05, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• A Wikipedia article is not a reliable source, el cid, but don't worry, that's a rookie mistake. We can look at actual medical sites and see how they describe it, such as WebMD which uses phrasing of "feel strongly" and "severe distress, anxiety, and depression". Or Psychology Today, which says it is "defined by strong, persistent feelings". Look at those words... "strong", "severe". Your edit chooses a watered down...one could go as far as saying milquetoast... characterization of the term that does not meet the accepted medical description. TheValeyard (talk) 00:35, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• You're confusing the definitions of dysphoria and gender dysphoria. The issue at question was how to define dysphoria in the parenthetical, not gender dysphoria. As such, I removed 'dysphoria' altogether, it seems to be defining the concept by using its own word. ‡ Єl Cid, Єl Caɱ̩peador ^ᐐT₳LKᐬ 00:41, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Rudeness

"Talk page etiquette[edit] Please do not edit other people's talk page comments, as you did at Talk:Gender dysphoria in this edit. Editing someone else's Talk page comments is never okay, with very rare exceptions. Your change was particularly bad, as it changed the definition of a proposed wording that had already been responded to by other commenters along with their agreement or opposition. Your change flipped the apparent meaning of the comments of several other editors, who had already commented before you, based on the original definition. So, don't ever do that.

You shouldn't even change your own words on a Talk page if anyone else has commented after you, except for minor things like fixing up a typo. Instead, if you want to edit your own words, you should generally just add a reply to your own post.

For general guidelines on using Talk pages, please see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. For a tutorial, try Help:Introduction to talk pages. Cordially, Mathglot (talk) 01:43, 10 August 2017 (UTC)"

Mathglot, you are fucking rude. I am not your child. There is no excuse whatsoever for an adult to talk to any other adult in that way. Who do you think you are, dictating to me what I can and cannot do? I am a veteran and a paying contributor to this very site, and I will not take this shit from you. I was trying to help improve the accuracy of the page, which I was given to understand is encouraged around here; clearly I was mistaken. While I am admittedly not familiar with the talk pages and admittedly made a mistake, your reaction is excessive. I might have actually apologized and fixed it, but now I'm inclined to just tell you to go fuck yourself and drop the whole mess. I don't need it.

Don't worry, I won't be back. I don't care about any of this, I was just trying to help.

To whomever else it may concern: I realize that my language toward this "person" was strong, and I apologize if it offended anybody else -- which is not to say that I apologize for using the language, as in this situation it is warranted. People simply cannot speak to each other the way Mathglot spoke to me.