Talk:Henry Berry Lowry

POV notice

This is more or less a hagiography. Chicheley 19:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

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Tuscarora Ancestry

Henry Berry Lowry's tribal Indian ancestry is unproven. The available evidence indicates that Lowry was non-Indian. For instance, see the published story of the Lowry Gang written Mrs. Mary C. Norment in 1875. Norment was a life-long resident of Robeson County. Her Lowrie History, was based on the hearsay evidence of older members of mainly--but not exclusively--white Robeson Countians. Norment described James Lowry, the great grandfather of young Henry Berry Lowry, as a “well proportioned, fine looking, respectable mulatto” who told Robeson County residents that he was the son of a white man, a Judge Lowry of Virginia, and his slave. James Lowry’s father manumitted him, according to James Lowry himself, in Bute County, North Carolina. He moved to what later became Robeson County only in 1769. There, he took up farming and running a tavern. Lowry’s “half breed Tuscarora Indian” wife, as described by Norment, was Sarah Kersey. However, Kersey was not 1/2 Tuscarora. Genealogist Paul Heinegg has identified the origins of the Kersey family. They are non-Indian. The Kersey family were not Tuscarora Indians, but the mulatto descendants of “Negroe” Peter Kersey of Surry County, Virginia (See Weynette Parks Haun, Surry County Court Records, III:240), and Susannah Carsey, “a free Negro woman” of Charles City County, Virginia, both of whom had sons named John Kersey. The succeeding generations of Kerseys brought a third John, a Thomas, and another Peter Kersey into the Drowning Creek watershed during the mid 1750s and into the mid 1760s, where they were listed and taxed as mulattoes.

• • Much of the previous paragraph is not true at all. As can be seen in the Lumbee talk page; p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lumbee , I have provided numerous amounts of information that contradict this paragraph completely. Where in the Lowrie History does it say that James Lowry married "his slave"?http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/lowriehistory.html What about the "Swamp Outlaws"? This was printed three years prior to Norments book, and the only Indian blood mentioned was Tuscarora.

http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/files/The_Swamp_Outlaws.htm --Roskerah 18:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

• How is it not true? Norment relayed this "tradition," and in the Swamp Outlaws there is little discussion at all of the Tuscarora, other than to indicate the "tradition" that the Lowries allegedly possesed a modicum of Tuscarora ancestry, but that white "blood" predominated in them, and there was Negro "blood" in the other Scuffletonians. See Swamp Outlaws, p. 12: Scuffletown a few miles distant from Lumberton was one of the largest free negro settlements in the United States before the war against slavery, and it was besides, an almost immemorial free negro settlement; p.18: "Berry put his gun to my face today and said he meant to kill me, and I told him to fire it off--not to stop for me." The negroes charge that these stories are without foundation; p. 41: Nobody in the whole region could account for this free negro settlement; p. 43: The free negroes settled upon the Scuffletown tract because the poverty of the soil...etc. The community is repeatedly described as "mulatto," "colored," and "Negro," and this reflects contemporaneous accounts as well as county and state records from circa 1800 to 1850. SEE immediately below:
  • • What everyone needs to remember, is the environment in which the people were living in during the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. In many instances, if you werent lily white, or an Indian living on a reservation, you designated were more times than not, a negro. Or mulatto, or whatever. One of the biggest reasons for not calling non reservation Indians "indian", was because indians were not taxable, whereas other non whites and whites were.

  Again, where in the Lowrie History does it say that he married his "slave"? Anyway, you are basing your opinion of the Kersey line on Heinegg, but I must ask, why do you put so much credence in his assumptions? He automatically labels entire family lines Negro just because of some white person's "perception" from 300 years ago. Have you seen the Thomas Kersey info from the colonial documents, where he is asking for a pension after fighting in the French and Indian War? No, it doesnt "say" Tuscarora, but F.Roy Johnson spoke of the 50 Tuscarora in his book( The Tuscaroras, Vol 2), and gives reference to the same colonial records volume from which I found this page. Same way with John Rogers. 
  Does the Kersey line have black blood somewhere? Maybe. White Blood? Probably. Other non native blood? Could be. But, regardless of these other "possible" infusions, Tuscarora has always been associated with the Kersey name since the early 1700's. Heck there are even Tuscarora on the New York rez today, that have Kersey lines. --Roskerah 07:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)  
   

Between 1768 and 1774 James Lowry and his wife were consistently taxed as mulattoes. By 1779, James Lowry owned two slaves, 400 acres of improved land, four horses, and 100 head of cattle (William Byrd, Bladen County Tax Lists, I:5, 17, 45, 60, 123, 136; II:63, 84, 101, 115).

• • Verklempt should conduct a closer reading of Norment's text-- who, by the way, was no fan of the Lowry family or of Lumbees in general. Norment was not unbiased. Of course, he fails to take this into account. Nor can Norment be absolved of the rampant racism that characterized white elites in Robeson County. Her own descendants have conceded as much. Nor does Verklempt help his case by citing two dubious researchers, Heinegg (an engineer, not an historian) and DeMarce (an unpublished historian so mediocre that she resorted to making her career and money peddling her genealogical services to petitioning tribes). The fact is that genealogists are not historians, nor are they able or qualified-- given their limited training (if they have any at all)-- to contextualize the history of the genealogical data that they gather. Verklempt has to boost the credentials of nonentities like Heinegg and DeMarce if only to make himself more credible. Now, if all historians resorted like Verklempt (and Heinegg and DeMarce) to merely transcribing tax lists and probate records without qualifying why certain language is being used, well, I guess we'd all be reading genealogy, not history. And, more sadly still, we wouldn't understand anything about the past-- much like Verklempt.

Verklempt is not the author of the comments you are responding to above. Factiness is the author. However, Verklempt notes that Factiness offers verifiable evidence, while the anonymous commenter offers naught but ad hominem about credentials. And can't even get his/her facts straight on that.Verklempt 00:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

____

Responding to anonymous criticism:

Paul Heinegg's genealogical research is fairly sound; not totally infallible, mind you, but he has utilized many primary sources, including tax lists and court records, grants, deeds, wills, and so forth. The research has in fact recieved the praises of various experts in several fields, and the foreword to the latest edition of his voluminous work--two volumes, more than 1,500 pages--was penned by none other than Ira Berlin, a renowned scholar of black history, a highly regarded historian, whose accomplishments over the course of the last four decades need no explication here. Heinegg's book won the Donald Lines Jacobus Award for the best published genealogical work for 1992-1994. More than 20 years archival and research experience serves as his "degree" if you will. No, he is not trained as a historian; but the work speaks for itself in that it has garnered the respect of degreed academics.

Virginia De Marce, far from being "mediocre" and "unpublished" is a proessional historian, with degrees, as well as decades of experience in using and interpreting primary sources. She has edited the National Genealogical Society Quarterly, a refereed scholarly journal--considered the pinnacle in the field--served as the Society's president, and worked--get this--as a historian for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. I have three or four of her published articles in my files here.

If these individuals who, arguably, have done as much if not more than anyone else to advance the field, are not "qualified" to speak to matters of documentation and ancestry, then who is? You, anonymous poster, seem to place much stock in the authority of the written word, and require significant accredidation before accepting somebody's research as valid. I submit that Heinegg and De Marce are indeed qualified to address these issues. Simply asserting that these prolific researchers and their detailed genealogical expositions--and the historical context they both include in their published work--are "nonentities" is near ludicous in light of the sources both cite. I cannot speak for Heinegg, so much, but clearly his work (see the "Introduction" to his latest edition) is not entirely bereft of analysis. De Marce, too, is cognizant of social and legal context, for she alludes to as much in some of her writings.

Yet, while requiring scholarly authority on the one hand, you belittle genealogy on the other; genealogy has come into its own as a discipline--complete with certification guidlines and processes, and a sanctioning body--and yet you offer nothing else in its stead to show how or why the genealogical work of these researchers is insufficient. For what it is worth, doesn't the Buraue of Indian Affairs require genealogical resarch for tribes applying for recognition? And, besides, the transcripts that Heinegg and De Marce include (among much other information) are instructive. For instacne, how come on one county tax list people are listed as "Indian" yet on another, neighboring, county's list people are not listed that way? Contemporaneously? This raises important questions. Why are the Cherokee considered Indians--by local, state, and federal officials--in the 1840s, while the Lumbee are not so considered at the same time? You see, I do understand something about the past. We will never have all the answers, it is true. But, from the available context--and there is quite a bit, actually--it is strange, indeed, that while Pamunkey and Mattaponi in Virginia, Cherokee in North Carolina, Catawbas in South Carolina, Seminoles in Florida, and Choctaws in Mississippi are all considered Indians--by local, county, and state records--from circa 1810 to 1870, yet during the same time, the Lumbee ancestors are never accorded an Indian status, and appear in the records as "colored" and "Negro"? I do not deny that some modicum of Indian ancestry flows thgrough Lumbee veins; rather, I take issue with assertions to specific tribal identities--and thus indigenous histories--with essentially no evidence to support such claims. The fact that on the main Lumbee Indian discussion page there is so much wrangling--even by and between Lumbees--as to what the tribal ancestry and heritage is, speaks for itself. Croatan? Cherokee? Cheraw? Tuscarora? In other words, nobody knows from which aboriginal tribe Lumbees allegedly descend.

Simply having a drop of Indian blood does not make one an Indian. That is biological determinism akin to the supposedly outdated and, I thought, rejected "one drop" rule applied to blacks. Indeed, I think this is one of the ideas against which the Lumbee have for so long struggled. They did not wish to be characterized as "black" due to a modicum of African ancestry, right? The Lumbee have denied African ancestry since 1885 and the Hamilton McMillan thesis. Yet, other researchers and writers, even some anthropologists, continued to allege, well into the early 20th century, that the Lumbee did have African ancestry. So, by this reasonoing, if the Lumbee are not black, then they are not Indian, either, because if "one drop" of "Negro" blood does not in fact make one black, then by the same token, one drop of Indian "blood" does not make one an Indian. Right? If Ia m wrong, please explain why I am wrong. Adn, even if a few Lumbee ancestors had a little Indian blood, how does that constitute a native Indian tribe?

Look, the surviving records show--quite clearly, I'd suggest--that Henry Berry Lowry had very little Indian ancestry, if he had any at all. There is maybe an undocumented Indian ancestor back there in the early 1700s. I believe that is very possible. But where did that Indian come from--assuming that intermarriage actually transpired--was it from an East Indian servant? A de-tribalized mixed-blood from central Virginia? A captive Pascagoula? A New England, or Mexican, or Brazilian Indian transported to North Carolina as a slave? How can you say that simply because the Lumbee are found today near where, say, the Keyauwee allegedly lived long ago, that therefore the Lumbee must descend from that tribe? By that logic, everyone in the country today who claims an Indian great, great grandmother, or whatever, must descend then from whatever tribe once inhabited the region or locale in which that great, great grandmother resided.

Until a researcher comes forward with irrefutable evidence--which will likely have to be genealogical, sorry--that shows, i.e., proves, Lumbee descent from a particular tribe (be it Cheraw, or Tuscarora), I think we will have to rely upon the original documents that have come to light, and the interpretation of those documents by researchers and scholars who are well versed in the record, and make logical arguments. And, Heinegg and De Marce are as good--as reliable--as any other out there who purport to reveal to us the "truth" about Lumbee origins.

I will close by saying that if the Lumbees' tribal Indian identity was well-documented in the first place, that the record included references to chiefs and headmen named Locklear, Lowry, Oxendine, Chavis, et. al., and there were referecnes to "Indians" in the Lumbee area after 1739 and before circa 1870s, then Lumbee identity would be unassailable, and this entire discussion would not be happening. The fact is, there is doubt, there are questions. Something about the Lumbee, and their past, has intrigued people for many, many years. Are they Indians? Some look to be, in a general way. But others appear to be black, and others still look white. Some a combination of all three. And their documented ancestors (this far) appear in the reord as "Negro," "mulatto," "colored," and sometimes even "white." But problems like this are what drives research. We want to know the answers. Sometimes, we get lucky, and find them. The Lumbee need some luck. And I wish them well.

• • It always amazes me to read and hear people's conclusions as to the "accepted" history of our people centered around Robeson County. Most of these person's never stepping foot in the area in which they claim to know so much about.

• How do you know I have never been in the area? Actually, I have, frequently. I have seen the Lumbee Petition for Federal Recognition, too. What do you consider "accepted" history, if not all the extant documentation, traditions and accounts? Also, please explain the numerous contradictions and frequent name changes, since the Croatan--now Lumbee--were first recognized in Robeson County and North Carolina in 1885.
  • • Ok, when you came, how many elders did you go to to get "their" genealogy and history? How long did you stay each time? You say that you saw the Lumbee petition, but what did you get from it? More confusion? Probably so, because their petition is full of half truths and outright revisionism. I bet you never saw Tuscarora in the entire petition did you? Don't you think that this is strange, especially since there is so much more evidence showing Tuscarora, versus Cheraw, or any other blood that they claim to descend from? The "accepted" history is anything that does "not" show a Tuscarora connection. They lead people to believe that we have always been known as Lumbee, living on the "Lumbee River", and that Henry Berry was a Lumbee, when in fact, he disappeared over 70 years before that name came into use.

  Regarding the name changes, take a look at this chronology:http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/TuscaroraChronology.html , and to summarize "why" all of these name changes have taken place, they were a series of names that the people were "designated" as, to keep a Tuscarora Tribe from being recognized again within North Carolina. It has been a concerted effort to keep people confused as to our "predominant" descent, with most writers/"experts" never even broaching the Tuscarora subject, even with the numerous writings "prior to 1885", all saying Tuscarora. McMillan basically created the Croatan Tribe, and as a result, this  name today, is seen as an actual tribe, when he himself admitted that it was only a village, and that the people were actually Tuscarora.http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/1885observer.html

--Roskerah 07:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

• I was under the impression that the historical Croatan were affiliated with the Hatteras, and these people were Algonquians, not Tuscarora.

  Have any of you ever wondered "Why" the history of the Indian people here has 

been so clouded, and confusing, and that, even though dozens of PhDs have done studies on our history, they still can't come to a unified "conclusion"? Have you ever thought that this is by no accident?

  The story of Henry Berry, and the history his people's descent, is not hard to 

understand when you keep everything in the correct context in which it pertains. The amount of evidence showing the Tuscarora connection to our people is irrefutable, yet this information has always been "omitted" from most contemporary text.

  I wonder how much time Heinegg and De Marce spent here doing there "genealogical" 

collection on the people here? You can well bet that they didn't get their published findings from the people here, because they would have gotten a completely different understnding. Their assertions that the blood is primarily "non" native is false, and should not be used as valid source material. The evidence that the federal government themselves found several dozen half or more full blood Tuscarora here in the 1930's, shows that even then, there was still strong blood here. IF the truth were known, there "should" have been several thousand recognized as at least half back then, but they only tested 209 individuals, from one Indian settlement here. Of the "22" that were recognized, most were descendants of Henry Berry.

  I will end by saying to those that previously wrote this article; DO MORE 

RESEARCH!! As far as I am concerned, this article should have added a section specifically for Tuscarora.--Roskerah 18:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

• Wrong. Only 209 agreed to be "tested" (measured, actually). Of those--a tiny fraction of the overall Croatan/Cherokee population--only a few appeared to have physical characterisitcs that were in line with what physical anthropolgy considred "Indian" blood in the mid-1930s. But how can one be so certain of strong Tuscarora ancestry across the entire community if only about a half dozen or so (six, maybe seven or eight) were considered full-blood out of a population of several thousands. Besides, this type of testing was discredited later, as the current Lumbee Tribal Chair admitted in his testimony a few months ago. See testimony before the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs (July 12, 2006) regarding the Elizabeth Dole sponsored S.660, “A bill to provide for the acknowledgement of the Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina, and for other purposes.” pp. 3-4: Goins: "...which have since been discredited as having no scientific basis. Most tribal members refused to submit to these tests. Only 209 agreed to do so...."

And twenty years of research in primary sources is not enough? What would be enough? If, as you assert, "The amount of evidence showing the Tuscarora connection to our people is irrefutable, yet this information has always been 'omitted' from most contemporary text," then I suggest you put it up here; not links to pages from late 19th century books, or to other published sources that list names, but give no other indication whatsoever concerning tribal origin; show us records from the late 1730s (or earlier, if you have them) to the early 1830s, that say "Indian," "Tuscaroroa," and so forth. Look, I am with you in that IF the Lumbee have any Indian blood (and, I believe they do have a little), it may well be Tuscarora; then again, it may come from slaves. But show us tribal ties, tribal associations, good evidence of tribal activity, governance, and the like. This would lay the debate to rest, so why is it being held back?

• • • Wrong about what? Regarding the 209 that "agreed to be tested", that is not true. I don't care if Jimmy Goins did say that, it isn't true. Most people didnt know about the testing, and they only went to one area to test. Those that did get tested had to pay fifty cents, so that in itself was reason enough for so few to be tested. I can almost throw a rock from my home, to the place where they did the testing.

  Where did you get your info on the numbers? Are you aware of the fact that 19 of the "22" came from one family, and even some of those 19 had full brothers and sisters that were "not" accepted? The other 3 also had atleast 15 brothers and sisters that "were not" accepted aswell. Also, are you aware of the fact that everyone here is related? All Lowries are kin; All Locklears are kin, and so on. The people have married and remarried among themselves so often over the years, that it is hard to find someone that you are not related to. The government made their determinations "only" on appearance, but even that didnt have a standardized litmus test, and when people see photos of those "not" accepted they cant understand, because they "looked" just like the ones that were accepted. Again, they only came to the Harper's Ferry area, not going to the other five settlements to find testees.

• I simply echoed your reference to "half a dozen or more"; I was under the impression that most of the 22 were basically one extended family, for the most part. So, we agree on that. But that supports my position. Why would full-siblings display such radically different "racial" phenotypes, if not for some significant admixture of non-Indian ancestry? But my sense from the original records is that the testing was well-publicized and supposedly "anticipated" by the Croatan/Cherokee (Tuscarora). People wanted to be designated 1/2 or more "Indian" so they could participate in the supposed benefits that would allegedly follow. So, again, I ask why so few turned up? Or, more interestingly perhaps, why nearly all those who did were closely related, and of those the people who were certified for looking like Indians--why nearly all from one family? I think this proves my point, really. Look, I said before I am willing to accept the possibility of some Tuscarora ancestry; indeed, it is far more plausible than Cheraw, frankly. What I am saying is that the Lumbee are not a tribe; I think if the Lowry family has a deep-rooted tradition of specifically "Tuscarora" ancestry, and that several members of the family tested positive if you will for "Indian" blood, well that may well indicate that the Tuscarora identity is based on something real. However, as far as the historical record goes, there is little documentation to support that.

• • The full siblings "didnt" look any different from the ones that were accepted. That is what is so ludicrous about the whole episode. Yes, there were ones tested that you could easily tell would not be accepted, but most of the second stage 108 who gave blood, should have been accepted given the fact that they made determinations only on appearance. I have all 108 determinations and photos, and when you compare the determination to the photo, you have to wonder what they were thinking. Take a look at these photos http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/TuscaroraPics.html , and tell me what you would determine Lawrence, Vestie, and Jesse, and what percentages of white, black, and indian blood you would give. I will then tell you how Seltzer broke their heritage down into perceived ancestry.

• Well, I sort of intimated I stepping out of the debate, but I re-checked these photos; I don't really want to get into judging books by covers, but all in all, I would say Lawrence appears to have the most Indian ancestry, but its only a general resemblance; I would say 1/2 blood, too. But, of the three, physically, he is the most compelling; the other two, frankly, show only vestigal Indian ancestry in my opinion, with Vestie maybe about 1/8 to 1/4 and Jesse looking to me like an Arab, and not very Indian at all. But, I think looking at somebody, and measuring their limbs, and skulls, and trying to comb their hair, or whatever, is ridiculous, so please, do not take offense at my little "anthropomorphic" assessment. I've seen Seltzer's reports, or some of them anyway. Its almost ludicrous, really, and in that sense I agree with you; clearly, many of the applicants looked more "Negro" than "Cherokee." What is at issue, ultimately, is the history and the genealogies, and my contention is that they don't add up, and this is what the "Lumbee" are relying upon, and that makes thier case week. But I'm starting to see your point, in terms of Tuscarora versus "Lumbee." In a sense, you've convinced me--even more than I was before--of the illegitimacy of the Lumbee.

• • Actually, Lawrence Maynor was accepted because Seltzer overrode the other two "testers" denial. And, pertaining to Jesse, he was found to have more Indian blood than anyone else tested. Seltzer wrote a report on him and his family specifically, talking about the inbreeding, and about how out of a possible eight great grandparents, Jesse only had five. The Brooks family today say that it was Jesse that brought the testers to the Brooks settlement, when he was seen in Pembroke, and that he was muchmore "Indian looking" than those in town.--Roskerah 19:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• Well, there you go. My point exactly--this method is erroneous, and the testing is outmoded; you can't take seriously any of Seltzer's determinations. I said I did not want to get pulled into judging boks by covers, but, really, Seltzer assigns the most Indian blood to the person who, to me, looks the least Indian. I'd like to see some modern DNA testing, that might tell us something more, and with a bit more accuracy. Pollitzer's blood group frequency analyses in the 1960s and 1970s--which were comparative, including Florida Seminole, North Carolina Cherokee (Eastern Band), and Catawba, as well as Gullah Negores, and others--showed the Lumbee to be something in the neighborhood of 1/2 "black" and only about 10% American Indian.Factiness 19:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

 Another thing, even though 19 of the "22" had the last name Brooks, they all descended from Locklear, Lowry, Oxendine, and other common surnames, just like everyone else here. 19 of the "22" came from one family, because they did the testing in the "Brooks settlement" which is where the longhouse was located. Adjacent to the test site was the Lumber river, which is where they made the women who were tested submerge themselves under water to see how their hair would react. IF it came out curly, that was a strike against you, and if it came out straight, that was a plus. --Roskerah 06:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)     

Norment wrote:

Block quote"...They married and remarried with each other so often that the distinctive features of one was representative of all. Straight black hair, high cheek bones, straight backs and great muscular power characterized the whole race. Traces of the Indian and Anglo-saxon race can be discovered in the contour of their faces and observed in their demeanor and deportment. As a race they are remarkably superstitious. They believe in fairies, elfs, spirits, ghosts and goblins and in conjuration. They are as a race very prolific. It is no uncommon occurance to find women among them who have born a dozen of children, and some few as many as fifteen or sixteen..."

http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/lowriehistory.html

What is wrong with the evidence that I have provided so far?

• Nothing is wrong with the fact that you are posting documents to support your claims. What I fail to see, though, is how you read "Tuscarora" in some sources, where the original record clearly does not state it: as in connection with your asssertions that Kersey and Rogers were Tuscarora, citing: "F.Roy Johnson spoke of the 50 Tuscarora in his book( The Tuscaroras, Vol 2), and gives reference to the same colonial records volume from which I found this page." Now, if these were tribal Tuscarora men, warriors, why are they applying for colonial pensions? There is no original record pertaining to the Tuscarora that makes reference to the tribe, or any tribal members, making applications for colonial pensions. Granted, a John Rogers does appear in Tuscarora records--but that is a common name, found in Bertie County and several surroundig counties. There is no Kersey in any of the extant records of the Tuscarora. So, if these two pensioners are indeed Tuscarora men, then the inference I take from this is that they left the tribal fold, established free-holder households, and accepted being designated as non-Indians. This would not of course preclude their descendants from claiming Tuscarora ancestry. But where is the evidence that a tribe persisted?

• • In volume VI page 90 of the Saunders edition (1886)N.C. Colonial records it says in part, "...It being certified to this house that the Tuscarora Indians who went on Expedition against Fort Duquesne under the command of General Forbes, behaved well on the expedition, This House therefore have resolved that the sum of One Hundred & Five Pounds be laid out in Presents by Mr. John Campbell and given to the said Indians as and for a Bounty & Reward for their Services, on the said Expedition, Persuant to a message of this House to the Governor at the close of April Session 1758..."

• • In F. Roy Johnson's Tuscaroras, on page 187, it says in part: "...In 1758 the assembly asked Governor Dobbs "to prevail with a number of the Tuscarora Indians to march with the troops of the

Province," together with forces under General Forbes of Virginia in the campaign against Fort Duquesne, the famed French bastion. An enlisted bounty of forty shillings was offered together with the promise to "reward them according to their merit at their return at the End of the Campaign." Eighteen returned to claim their reward for which the assembly authorized one hundred and fifty-five pounds.(1885 N.C. Colonial Records VI, pages 90, 101,1012) They had served under Major Hugh Waddell and were highly commended for reconnoitering and scouting...." --Roskerah 06:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, I am quite familiar with these sources. What I am saying is that these records do not connect "Lumbee" ancestors to the modern Lumbee tribe; there are other records that give the precise number of Tuscarora warriors, mention the members of other tribes fighting with them against the French, and yet at the time, there are militias mustering in Bladen County, and "no Indians" are reported there. These Tuscarora to which you refer were living at Resthkootseh Town in Bertie County. In the 1760s through the 1770s, the "Lumbee" Braveboy (Brayboy), Carter, Chavis, Clark, Cumbo, Dees, Dial, Goins, Groom, Hammons, Hunt, Jones, Kersey, Locklear, Lowery, Oxendine, Perkins, Russell, Sweat, and Wilkins families were in what is now Robeson County and were being counted "mulattoes" and "Free Negroes" while at the same time several hundred Tuscarora are called "Tuscaroras" and "Indians" in Bertie County with names like William Basket, Billy Blount, Jr., Wineoak Charles, Bille Cornelius, Billy George, Snipnose George, Senicar Thomas Howett, Tom Jack, Capt. Joe, John Litewood, Bille Netopp, Bille Sockey, Lewis Tuffdick, West Whitmel Tufdick, and Bette Yollone, for example. So, I'm not persuaded by your argument, though, with the John Rogers you mention, I do not dismiss outright the possibility of a Tuscarora man, or woman, or even a family, entering the "Lumbee" area.

• • How does this "not" connect? There are probably ten thousand or more (Tuscarora and Lumbee) here that descend from Thomas Kersey alone. There are several more thousand that descend from John Rogers. Again, one reason that our people who had left the reservation area "were not" designated as Indian, was because of the fact that Indians were tax exempt. Even some of our ancestors that "were" specifically called Tuscarora while still in Bertie, were later classed as mulatto and free negro when they too moved off the rez. These names include Chief Billy Pugh, who settled in Sattletree, and Chief James Blount, who settled on Flowers Swamp. The Jones name comes from Robert(white), who had leased part of the Bertie rez, who later lost these leases after the beginning of the Revolutionary War, and who then moved here along with his brother Richard in November of 1779. --Roskerah 19:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• I know much about Robert Jones, and there is not a documentary connection between him and anyone in the Lumbee community. The Jones leases were initially rejected by the General Assembly; when later confirmed, they were subsequently protected under North Carolina law. Jones lived and died in northern North Carolina, as did his sons and grandsons. I cannot say more on that matter; but let's discuss taxation. Your claim is that Indians were not taxable, but in what sense? In what context? North Carolina law expressly provided for the taxation of all non-whites, period, unless they were members of a tribal entity with treaty relations. North Carolina acknowledged its tribes and maintained treaty relations into the early 1800s; there were overseers and commissioners who handled Tuscarora Affairs, and to date, of all the extant lists of Tuscarora Indians, none can be traced into Robeson County, or the Lumbee community. Thomas Kersey has been shown to be non-Indian. "Chief Billy Pugh" and "Chief James Blount" did not settle in Saddletree and Flowers Swamp. But, for the sake of argument, let's suppose they did; then, by voluntarily separating from the tribal fold, they surrendered their tribal Indian status.

Lastly, regarding the years of research, and I don't want to minimize the time you have put into this subject, but what sources were these? Who did these things, and did they have an unknown agenda which guided their determinations? Did these people just rely on previous writers conclusions, or did they actually double check "their" sources?--Roskerah 07:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

• Overwhelmingly, I used primary source documents. I do not take offense to your question, you are not minimizing anyone's efforts; indeed, I commend your own, as you seem to comprehend more of Tuscarora question of origins than do most. And I agree with you that "Lumbee" is a fiction. I am sure the creators of the records I have used probably had agendas--they worked for some court, or some authority; that would be true of all sources, really, short of diaries and journals, but even those would need to be assessed---did the writer own slaves? Was he or she a Methodist or Baptist? And so forth.... By and large, I think the colonial records are fair. This is why I question the existence of Indians in one area where they are never documented as such in the records, but in another section, maybe even a neighboring county, there are references to Indians. Then, you let genealogy take over; I would use many of the same sources as you would employ: pension records, for instance. Can you trace documented Indians forward into a modern tribal community? That is what is at issue. I fell, based on that, the Lumbee are not a tribe, and I am not convinced that the Lumbee are even in possession of anything other than a very small degree of actual Indian ancestry; I doubt that blood is "Cheraw," and it is almost certainly not Cherokee or Croatan/Hatteras. Based on the migration patterns--Tuscarora or slaves would appear to be the most likley source of the "Tuscarora" Indian blood in RobCo and environs. So, there is my take, and possibly my final word, on the subject.

Re the 1930s anthropometric testing--I question the value of the "oral history" recorded in those genealogies. There are some whopping errors in the genealogies that the participants reported to the govt researchers. This casts doubt on the validity of the oral histories. I also agree with the Lumbee petition authors that the anthropometric techniques of that era have dubious validity. If you accept the validity of that approach to determining ethnic history, then you also have to accept the validity of William Pollitzer's findings.Verklempt 04:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

• I have to concur with Verklempt (and I apologize as I forgot how to "sign" these posts); if the anthropomorphic testing is accepted in regards to the "22," then certainly Pollitzer's studies some thirty or more years later, and which sampled a far larger number of Lumbee, must be accepted as well. His results returned only 10% Indian ancestry as a whole for the Lumbee, but more than 40% "Negro" or black. The balance was white.

Four tilde marks tell WP to sign your posts for you. Use colons to indent.Verklempt 14:51, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

• • • Are you referring to the Cherokee claims made on many of the applications? The genealogies were correct, but the tribe in which most were claiming,(Cherokee) was not correct. Keep in mind that even though 99.9% of the applicants were claiming Souian, the "official" name was still Cherokees of Robeson County. Most were illiterate, and most had accepted the Cherokee name to be true, even though today we know that most of these names came from Tuscarora territory.

Regarding the actual testing process, we were guinea pigs at that time. Our people were the first people that I know of that was subjected to this procedure, and also the last.--Roskerah 06:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I was talking about Lowry descendants not knowing that Allan had two wives, and thus not knowing which one was their line. Even the most educated guy in the bunch got that one wrong.Verklempt 18:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)