Jump to content

Talk:John Adams/Archive 4

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Talk:John Adams

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) at 00:06, 24 September 2017 (Archiving 2 discussion(s) from Talk:John Adams) (bot). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4Archive 5

Jr

--- No 'Jr'

SNUGGUMS Look at the plethora of sources here, no one says Junior (it appears at most like a fringe pedantic exercise, perhaps anachronism) See eg.,

The single source you cite is odd in many ways but it simply does not stand up. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:35, 17 June 2016 (UTC) SNUGGUMS fixing ping. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:40, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

It might not have been the single greatest reference, but it wasn't exactly a bad one. I should also note the following:
  1. Other sources such as the Biographical Encyclopaedia of Massachusetts of the Nineteenth Century and The Early Republic and Antebellum America: An Encyclopedia of Social, Political, Cultural, and Economic History note he was such and can be used in place
  2. Just because a reference doesn't mention a suffix doesn't always make it non-existent, especially given the next point.....
  3. The fact that the President's father was John Sr implies he was Jr when they had the exact same full name. However, son John Quincy Adams is not John III since father and grandfather didn't have the "Quincy" middle name
  4. The use of suffixes isn't at all "fringe", "pedantic", or an "anachronism". They've been used for countless years, longer than I can keep track of. You can argue that certain sources are fringe (as a general statement), but not the overall concept of generational suffixes.
I don't deny that the links you gave don't use it, but there are quality works that do, and it would by all means be accurate to use the suffix for him. Snuggums (talk / edits) 13:25, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
As we are not talking about the use of all "Jr." most your points are decidedly irrelevant and non responsive. It is clearly fringe or minority or undue and oddly pedantic, probably anachronism, and unnecessary, here, in this article. (BTW: Anachronism does not mean, as you seem to argue, 'has not been around for a long time', it means, a later fashion is projected into a past time period). Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:45, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
On the contrary, giving someone's full name isn't any of those things except maybe minority for not all works taking entire name into account, though even that isn't a good enough reason to ignore and leave it out. It's also not like I'm just spewing out bad refs or unsupported claims. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:00, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
No. Noted historian, Joseph Ellis, who wrote an encyclopedia article; C. James Taylor, the director of the Adams Library, who wrote an encyclopedia article; the Mass Historical Society, etc. etc, etc., show otherwise. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:14, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Again, just because something isn't specifically stated doesn't always equate to not existing, especially when there are in fact credible works that mention such detail as I linked above. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:18, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Well, it's not even used in the first mention in the two sources you cite - so again unneeded, undue, fringey or minority, oddly pedantic, and probably anachronism. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:23, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
You are highly mistaken. By that logic, Herbert Hoover's middle name "Clark" as an example shouldn't be used just because a biography on him doesn't use it in the title or opening sentence and only does so in subsequent sentences. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:32, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
No, by this logic, we follow the weight of sources. The mistake is yours. When has Jr become a middle name -- it is rather a made-up appendage, to John Adams, himself. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:49, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Not made up at all. Weight of sources doesn't affect legal identity. Don't confuse it with article title or what a subject is commonly known as. Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:52, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Legal identity? So, now it's original legal research that's being foisted upon us. Sorry, we don't do that. 17:01, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
We both know it's not original research when there are works supporting my assertion of his full name (which is what I was referring to). Snuggums (talk / edits) 17:03, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
No. It is entirely your legal opinion no-one else's -- it is textbook original research for which you have no legal source to support you and even the very few sources you have brought don't support making such a legal claim for John Adams. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:08, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

The way I see this matter is the following:

  • Is this person referred to in their lifetime as a "Junior".
  • Is this person referred to in multiple reliable sources as a "Junior".
  • Most genealogical & historical research that I have seen - when referring to persons with the same name use birth year/death year to delineate the different personages. Take a look at all the different "John Washington" Wikipedia articles. This also works for different family-members with the same name (family names, mostly of men, but also of women, get recycled between generations and sometimes within the same generation, especially in 17th-19th Century of American history).
  • The word "Junior" could be seen to only be applicable during the lifetimes of both people. Once the "Sr" dies, the "Jr" appellation is technically no longer valid, because then what is the person who was known as a "Jr" then has a child they give the same name to... The person was was a "Jr" technically becomes a "Sr" all over again.
  • The author of the AmericanHistory Central "John Adams "article is Randal Rust, the company President of R.Squared Communications (a publisher of various online encyclopedias).
  • Heh, and to now throw a big money-wrench into the works there's John Adams Sr....

I personally do not think delineating the different people as "Sr" and "Jr" is appropriate unless contemporaneous sources and historical references overwhelmingly refer to the two different persons as such, for instance Franklin Delano Roosevelt & Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jr.. In the monkey-wrench example I mentioned above, the person with more notability is regarded as [Their name], while the person with less notability is given some kind of variation to show the difference [Their name Sr] or [Their name birthyear-deathyear]. Shearonink (talk) 19:24, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

PS - Perhaps Rust could be contacted to ask for his opinion as to why he refers to the US President as a Jr. Did he cite any sources for the moniker? Shearonink (talk) 19:33, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
In the sources linked, John Adams father is occasionally referred as "Deacon" or "the elder". John Adams signed one of the most famous legal documents in the world as John Adams (no Jr.), and his own grandson Charles Francis Adams, in his academic biography did not call the president, Jr., He called him John Adams, as do the great weight of sources. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:14, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
(Shaking head in disappointment) Sr and Jr (as well as III, IV, etc.) apply to people whether dead or alive when they have the entire same full name as a parent (or other relative when namesake relative is someone like a grandfather or uncle). It would otherwise defeat the purpose of suffixes (i.e. Charles Francis Adams and his namesake son, grandson, and great-grandson wouldn't have respectively been Sr, Jr, III, and IV). I know this from personal experience since I have relatives who were named for their fathers and their suffixes remained after their fathers died. Anyway, I'm not denying that most texts just say "John Adams", but you can't just outright dismiss the quality references that do mention a suffix since leaving it out altogether would incorrectly imply he was the original of his name when in fact that was his father. It most certainly IS NOT original research to call a man Jr by any reasonable measure when I provide something saying he was such. Let's not kid ourselves. If you feel the sources aren't credible, that's one thing, though I seriously doubt you could convince anyone that either of the ones linked aren't viable. You also can't simply ignore the fact that just because a detail isn't specifically noted in a work doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist, and this particularly applies when there are other credible works that do mention it. Weight isn't the issue here. The only possible issue would be verifiablility, and the suffix most certainly is verifiable. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:54, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for more of your original personal experience but decidedly not relevant, and you are wrong again, according to Verifiability policy, choices for articles are not made just because a few sources exist and accord with your personal predilection - as it's not supported by the number and most excellent sources, including himself, and his grandson, and multiple modern encyclopedic biographical treatments - it is simply unneeded and does not have sufficient weight. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:53, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
You very well know my comment was in accordance with verifiablility policy; falsely accusing me of making things up like that when I provide supporting materials is baseless and beyond ridiculous. The links I gave are very much encyclopedic as well. Please stop being so dismissive of my points and pretending like my refs aren't enough to back something up. I also am not doing anything based on personal predilection, only based on what I have seen in other works. It's not like I'm providing bad sources or anything. As I'm sure you know (even if you won't admit it), a person's full name very much does carry enough weight for their own article and most definitely is worth including when reliably sourced (which it is), even if only a small amount of good works mention it. Quantity doesn't undermine quality. My sources are by all means encyclopedic, and it's not like they're contradicting other works; only providing additional detail. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:10, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Well, sorry, you did make-up the legal name thing or have shown no source that says that was his legal name. I have acknowledged your few sources, and it's because they are few that they lack weight. His full-name, as he writes, himself, is John Adams, as most the sources agree, including his own grandson in his seminal 1850 biography. As for Verifiability policy, it is precisely as I said, just because there is a source or two does not mean it goes in, that's pretty much a direct quote from Verifiability policy. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:38, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm just wondering what the average person, who, after all, is the readership we are crafting this article for, if you walked up to them and said "Who was John Adams Jr?" what would they say? And what is the most common search term for the person this article is about? In my opinion, the only Wikipedia listing that "John Adams Jr" or "John Adams II" would qualify for is a re-direct from that name to this article.
As long as we're bringing in some personal experience, I have relatives who during their fathers' lifetimes were known as [Name] Jr and the father was known as {Name] Sr but when the father died the Jr moniker was dropped in the sons' personal common usage.
Mr. Rust publishes a phone # and I am sure he has an email as well. I would suggest he be contacted as to his source/s or reasons for referring to President Adams as "Jr". Shearonink (talk) 01:23, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
"II" is misleading in this case as that would imply that the original namesake of a relative was someone other than the father, such as a grandfather or an uncle. "John Adams Jr" would definitely be a valid redirect for this article. We should keep in mind though that common usage isn't always a person's full name (i.e. Jimmy Carter is most commonly used to refer to the 39th president while his full name is James Earl Carter Jr). William Howard Taft on the other hand is full name AND most common usage. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:38, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

During President John Adams' lifetime he apparently referred to his grandson John as "John Adams Jr", see [1]. John Quincy Adams also referred to his son John as "John Adams Jr" see [2]. In 1829 The Journal of the House of Representatives of the United States, Volume 20, Issue 2 refers to John Quincy Adam's son as "John Adams Jr" see [3]. John Quincy Adams' son John also signed his name as being "John Adams Jr", see [4].
I don't think that anyone is disputing that some sources(see Genealogies of Connecticut Families, Notable Kin: An Anthology of Columns First Published in the Nehgs Nexus, 1986-1995 use "John Adams Jr." to distinguish President John Adams from his less-famous farmer father. I think that the majority of sources refer to the farmer as "John Adams Sr" (even if they don't use "Jr" for the Presidential son). It is also true that the preponderance of sources refer to the President as "John Adams" without any additional modifications (either Jr or II) after his name, see whitehouse.gov, Biography.Com, University of Virginia's Miller Center and so on.
Snuggums, I am not sure what you want in this case, so far the consensus seems to be for the name in the lede to remain as John Adams with possibly some Name-only re-directs that would then point to this article. I would suggest you open an RfC to gain a consensus from a broader range of your fellow editors if you wish as I feel at this point the discussion isn't progressing. Shearonink (talk) 05:24, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Hmm..... there actually doesn't seem to be a clear consensus for either inclusion or omission at the moment. The only person I've really seen oppose its use is Alan. RFC isn't a good idea since that'll just make things bigger than they need to be. What I cannot fathom is any good reason why someone's full name wouldn't be deemed worth including. I'm fine with having a redirect and created one myself. Thank you in any case for at least acknowledging that the President has been credibly referred to with a suffix, though. Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:05, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Well, I fundamentally don't agree that it is his full name, and I have stated above why that is so. John Adams did not use it (which is what I was referring to when I earlier said it appears a made-up appendage as to him - I was not suggesting that you made it up) and from a review of all the sources, it appears solely to be a historically later convention adopted after his death by some minority to in short-form, as Sheronick put it, "distinguish President John Adams from his less-famous farmer father", some even using the form "John Adams (Jr.)" with Jr in parenthesis (and even for the minority, it generally appears to be used only once, at his birth). Most others, including his grandson biographer, have entirely different ways of distinguishing, including, "Deacon" or "the elder". I think it is misleading to suggest that it was his actual name (legal, or full) but sure it's an alternative, so, if those need to be mentioned at all, which I don't think they (John Adams Jr.; John Adams (Jr.)) do, they could be mentioned as lesser-alternatives in the birth section. But I remain opposed to it in the lead. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:42, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2016


BeatItFan5 (talk) 02:05, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

No change requested, so no change made. —C.Fred (talk) 02:09, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Per MOS:LINK, links should not be placed next to each other in such a way that they appear to be a single link, and the more specific link should be chosen - thus, [[List of Presidents of the United States|2nd President of the United States]] is more appropriate than [[List of Presidents of the United States|2nd]] [[President of the United States]]. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:02, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Alma mater

The article says his Alma Marta was Harvard University. It was Harvard College. Harvard did not become a university until around 1900.

Leland M. Cole, Harvard 57 e-mail lcole@ceiworld.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:644:101:368B:A0B0:AD5B:BC20:874 (talk) 18:48, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Diplomat and statesman

Someone aiming for brevity thought "statesman" and "diplomat" were synonyms. They aren't. Unfortunately, I accidentally hit "Enter" before completing my edit summary. I think it's important to note in the lead he was a lawyer, diplomat, and statesman.
Also, I took the liberty of removing a trivial greeting (spam) from this talk page just now. YoPienso (talk) 23:02, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

"statesman" for a career politician like Adams? Why do we keep using this annoying term? Dimadick (talk) 12:59, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Better question would be why do sources use it [5] -- at least here, he did actually create one state (constitution) and was a major figure in creating another (the United States), etc. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:56, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2016

Since the portrait of Adams by John Trumbull appears twice in this article, I request this portrait https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1800#/media/File:US_Navy_031029-N-6236G-001_A_painting_of_President_John_Adams_(1735-1826),_2nd_president_of_the_United_States,_by_Asher_B._Durand_(1767-1845)-crop.jpg be substituted in place one of the Trumbull portraits. 147.126.10.21 (talk) 17:41, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done for now: The main refbox portrait is the official portrait, the one further down shows it as a Trumball painting, far more popular and noteworthy for inclusion than the one you requested. 🔯 Sir Joseph 🍸(talk) 20:34, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 December 2016

my nami is cokami and i wish to change this aritcle for the better so that everyone knows that he was the baby setter of thew main goodings beer in teh manyy world please anfd gracieass--Lsjfsjafl (talk) 16:12, 8 December 2016 (UTC) Lsjfsjafl (talk) 16:12, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 16:46, 8 December 2016 (UTC).

Last Words

The article does say that his last words "included" something like "Thomas Jefferson survives," and thus it is not saying they were his very last words. Point I'm trying to make is that McCullough and other biographers state that his actual final words (to a grandson or granddaughter, iirc) were something like "Help me, child, help me." Should they be mentioned in that section? Sir Rhosis (talk) 01:26, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on John Adams. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:54, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on John Adams. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:15, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on John Adams. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:30, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:John_Adams/Archive_4&oldid=802096773"