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October 1

Spanish b/v, English b/p, Mandarin b/p, Korean b/p

English b and p seem to be very distinct. Mandarin b and p also seem very distinct. Korean b and p sound indistinguishable. So are Spanish b and v sounds. I once accidentally thought one said b, even though it was v. Also, Spanish r and rr are supposed to be pronounced differently, but native speakers still roll the tongue for the r sound. Eh? I have a couple of questions.

Is the Spanish b like the English b at all?
Why do native Spanish speakers roll the tongue on the single r?
Is there a difference between the Korean b and Chinese b? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 18:06, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(I took the liberty of numbering your questions for ease of answering.) 1: Yes, but b is not the same as v. 2: Because they do. Single is tapped; double is trilled. Try reading Spanish_language#Phonology. Bazza (talk) 19:55, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Neither Mandarin nor Korean have a /b/ phoneme. In Mandarin the contrast is between unaspirated /p/ (which is represented in pinyin by the letter <b>) and aspirated /pʰ/ (which is represented in pinyin by the letter <p>). In Korean there is a three-way contrast between /p/, /pʰ/ and tense /p͈/. However, a [b] sound does occur in both languages as an allophone. In Korean, /p/ is pronounced as [b] when it occurs between two voiced sounds; in Mandarin /p/ is pronounced as [b] when it begins a "weak" syllable. See Korean phonology and Standard Chinese phonology for more complete descriptions.--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 20:34, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No. 1, no, Spanish b is not like English b most of the time. In some instances, they are about the same. A 'b' at the beginning of a Spanish sentence or phrase sounds like an English b. Also, when 'b' follows an 'm' or 'n', it sounds like English b. In the other cases, the Spanish 'b' sounds almost like a 'v' (it's like 'v', except the bottom lip does not touch the upper front teeth... the bottom lip is in a neutral position and not touching the teeth at all). As for Spanish 'b' and 'v', they are pronounced the same. A 'v' at the beginning of a Spanish sentence or phrase sounds like an English b. Also after the consonants 'm' and 'n'. Otherwise, it sounds almost like a 'v'. That's why so many native Spanish-speakers misspell words with a 'b' or 'v'. They are pronounced exactly alike.

No. 2, they roll the single 'r' because that's how it's pronounced. The single 'r' gets a single tap. The double 'rr' gets 3 or 4 taps or more. —Stephen (talk) 10:25, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's easier just to use the IPA symbols, and say that [b] and [β] are allophones in Spanish... AnonMoos (talk) 17:00, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A more general answer to your questions, OP, is that most of us hear only the distinctions which our own language makes. For most English speakers, the 'p' sound in the words "pin" and "spin" is different - it is aspirated ([pʰ]) in "pin", but not in "spin". (Hold a hand in front of your mouth when you say them to check this). Most English speakers are not aware that there is a difference in the sound, because it is not significant in English phonology. But that is exactly the different between Mandarin <b> and :lt;p>. Conversely, Spanish speakers often have difficulty hearing the difference between /b/ and /v/ in English, because they are not regarded as different sounds in Spanish. See phoneme for more on this. --ColinFine (talk) 20:10, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly is the "tenseness" people talk about in Korean consonants? This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg-VZxBIZjo) claims that there is also a natural change in pitch depending on which of the three consonants is pronounced. --178.10.122.251 (talk) 23:08, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I did hear a difference between kah, kah, and gah, even though I suspect I'm accidentally inserting tonality into the Korean language, when Korean is not a tonal language. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 00:08, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Korean phonology. See also tenseness and especially phonation which discuss phenomena that are rare or not distinctive in types of voicing found in European languages, but which are common elsewhere. μηδείς (talk) 01:25, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 2

"A few" ... singular or plural?

Resolved

– 06:54, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

A ~~quickie~~ question: is "a few" singular or plural? E.g.: (regarding a lost film) A few production stills is all that remains. -or- A few production stills are all that remain. —2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E19A:1892:B4DC:8315 (talk) 02:43, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I get 1,190 results Google hits for "A few production stills is all that remains"[1] and zero Google hits for "A few production stills are all that remain"[2]. Bus stop (talk) 03:13, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(lol) Virtually all of those google hits relate to the article in question (mirrors, etc.). And there is one hit for the 2nd sentence (this reference desk), 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E19A:1892:B4DC:8315 (talk) 03:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Few is plural, so A few production stills are all that remain. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:11, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This page from Cambridge Dictionary site complicates things; I am still uncertain concerning my example. — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E19A:1892:B4DC:8315 (talk) 05:11, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that it always takes a plural object, never a singular one. And plural verbs, not singular ones. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:28, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just because a narrow Google search reveals that foolishness has been spread around, that does not transform that foolishness into truth. "A few" is plural. "A few" never applies to "one", which is singular. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:32, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If "a few" were changed to "a small number", would it then be A small number of stills are all that remain. (?) — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E19A:1892:B4DC:8315 (talk) 05:39, 2 October 2017 (UTC) ... Did correction (here).[reply]

... but isn't "number" singular? Dbfirs 07:59, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, this is what confuses me. "a few" and "a small number" seem to fill the same sentence element to me. Perhaps it is the singular "a" (few) that throws me off. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E19A:1892:B4DC:8315 (talk) 08:19, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are not alone! I think this confuses most people, given the frequency of errors. Dbfirs 08:25, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E19A:1892:B4DC:8315, I wonder if you are Slavic. In Slavic languages, if the noun is grammatically singular, the verb is singular (most of the people is here). For example, in Russian: Большинство из них говорит по-русски (Most of them speaks Russian). In English, we use the logical plural. Even though the noun "most" is singular, its logical meaning is plural, so we say "most of them speak Russian". —Stephen (talk) 10:42, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The usual rule of thumb with regard to number is that "a number" is construed as plural, "the number" as singular: "A number of my friends are going to the concert", but "The number of wildebeest on the plain was astounding." Deor (talk) 14:08, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you read the sentence as an inverse copular construction, then singular is fine: "All that remains is a few production stills". --Wrongfilter (talk) 05:57, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I prefer that construction. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E19A:1892:B4DC:8315 (talk) 06:54, 2 October 2017 (UTC) (re-edit)[reply]

It's the old dichotomy between the abstract and the concrete. "A small number of people is selecting its partners for the next dance" just doesn't sound right. 81.147.142.152 (talk) 08:56, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gee, thanks -- just as I started to combobulate, you had to rediscombobulate things. ;) 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E19A:1892:B4DC:8315 (talk) 09:11, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese translations of computer keys

Can anyone translate the Chinese on these lower rows of computer keyboard keys? I'd also appreciate it if anyone could type the Chinese characters so that I can copy and paste them. I'm particularly interested in what the Chinese equivalents of Control, Meta, Hyper and Super keys are but some of that information is probably too hard to come by. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.216.49.78 (talk) 14:25, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I found references.

[3](控制键 = control key)
[4](Windows use Windows, while Mac uses a four-petalled flower for the Meta key.)
[5] (Meta key may be the Alt key （交替换挡键）or Esc key （退出键）, or as I mentioned above, the Mac version of Windows key. Super key is the Windows key or the four-petal flower key. Hyper key, according to the website, is undefined.)

I think you have a really old computer, because I have to search the web pictures to know what you are talking about. Though, I'm not exactly sure if the modern terms and the archaic terms are an exact match. Basically, I just looked for the modern English translation and looked for the Chinese equivalent. As for the picture, the 空格 means space. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 15:04, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Died in a hospital" – American English?

An ip very recently inserted the word "a" in the sentence; I removed it, and the ip subsequently reverted me saying that "a" is appropriate for American English. Here is the revert. I'm not asking whether either version forms a grammatically correct sentence; I know they both do; I'm asking whether it's more appropriate in US English with or without the word in this particular sentence. Please don't sidetrack off into irrelevant discussions about other sentences. Akld guy (talk) 22:41, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"In hospital" is quite unusual in American English. We would say "in the hospital", even without a specific hospital in mind. --Trovatore (talk) 22:47, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And we wouldn't likely say "in a hospital". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:33, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

True — "in the hospital" would be the normal way to say it. If that makes British readers scratch their heads as to which hospital it was, maybe some larger rephrasing is in order. --Trovatore (talk) 23:53, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"The hospital" assumes that the specific hospital is already known. Of course, the solution would be to specify. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E19A:1892:B4DC:8315 (talk) 00:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In American English, it's fine to say "in the hospital" without specifying which hospital that is. Compare it with "I left my wallet in the car". It's not necessary to specify which car, in such a case. StuRat (talk) 00:56, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In New Zealand English, we would definitely say "he died in hospital", which I think also follows BritEng and AusEng. I'm not trying to debate it, just explaining why I questioned it. It's a US article and you guys get to choose. Akld guy (talk) 01:09, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

One way around it is to say "died in a local hospital" although that's kind of redundant. But Trovatore's change is the best, for this article. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:27, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The original question having been adequately addressed, I feel free to mention a similar case. There's a famous short poem by R. L. Stevenson, called Requiem. It reads in part, ...home is the sailor, home from (the)? sea, and the hunter home from the hill. I find it some places as "home from sea" and sometimes as "home from the sea"; I don't know which is what Stevenson wrote.

But I don't recall ever seeing "home from hill". The issues are identical; there is no indication that there is a particular hill in mind, and yet speakers of all varieties seem to understand it.

So to sum up, English is sort of random :-). Americans have "in the hospital" along the lines of "home from the hill", whereas other varieties apparently do not. --Trovatore (talk) 01:26, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The rhythm of the sentence works better with "the". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:29, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"home from the sea" is correct - at least that's what the put on his grave. [6] Rmhermen (talk) 02:31, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you read further down in your linked article, that author actually claims that's a mistake:

That second “the” on line seven is a plaque-maker’s error.

On the other hand, Bartleby gives it with "the": http://www.bartleby.com/103/15.html

So I still don't know for sure. --Trovatore (talk) 04:45, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Edinburgh Companion to Robert Louis Stevenson and Joseph Farrell's Robert Louis Stevenson in Samoa both agree with the Paris Review that the poem was misquoted on the tombstone, Farrell's book also saying that "there have...been schemes to have the engraving removed and corrected". For me that outbalances Bartleby. --Antiquary (talk) 09:44, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Searching in Google Books, I found several books containing what appears to be the poem as originally published. They all show "home from sea". For example this page from a 1910 omnibus volume of Stevenson, and this page from a 1919 reprint. Despite this, most other books that quote the poem give the wording as "home from the sea". --69.159.60.147 (talk) 09:56, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It appears the tombstone is wrong, I see. This 2nd edition of Underwoods from 1887 has "from sea": [7] Rmhermen (talk) 16:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's commonplace to say that someone "went to sea". It's not commonplace to say that someone "went to hill". So one wouldn't expect the article to be omitted when describing their return. 92.8.220.234 (talk) 18:31, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Och! he was ett by t'blancmange!"

October 3

Hi is there any good site for grammar check for articles

Would like to check for some other [[8]] health and beauty, is there any better site to check for grammar.

Grammar checkers are pretty useless. It's better to wait for a human to come along and fix articles.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:22, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cheburashka

In this video, what is the first thing that Cheburashka (the bear) says to Gena the Crocodile? From context, I'm guessing it's something like "Gena, can I sit beside you?" I'm interesting in knowing the Russian, and the English translation of what he says. Thanks. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 14:08, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Гена, я с тобой поеду". "Gena, I will go with you". BTW he is not a bear . Шурбур (talk) 14:15, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's great, thank you very much. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 15:06, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A more precise rendition in English by the context, I guess "I will be riding with you" (on the roof). Шурбур (talk) 15:56, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cambridge spelling

Does Cambridge University Press follow non-standard-UK spelling? I was surprised to discover Explaining Social Behavior from Cambridge UP; until I found the WorldCat record, I figured it was a typo for "Behaviour". Nyttend backup (talk) 15:48, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm... Cambridge University Press is an international business. So, that may explain the American spelling. Maybe an American affiliate published the specific article you're reading. American or British, I don't consider it a typo. Both are acceptable spellings in English. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 16:32, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The author, Jon Elster, is a professor at Columbia University, so presumably he used American English spelling when writing the book. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A quick search for behaviour and behavior on the CUP website throws up many examples of each spelling. Checking on a few of the authors, it does appear to depend on their nationality, or where they are working. Wymspen (talk) 17:26, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You can find a general style sheet for CUP here. They say they allow either "British" or "American" spelling and punctuation, with a few examples of each. So in some cases they do follow non-standard-UK practice. Herbivore (talk) 21:10, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think "non-standard-UK practice" is a misleading way to phrase it, as it might suggest (a) "[nonstandard] UK" rather than (b) "non-[standard-UK]". Standard US is (b) but not (a). jnestorius^(talk) 08:21, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Are not books these days submitted electronically? As the type is no longer set manually that may be the reason that C U P (and no doubt other publishers) are happy with either variety provided it is used consistently. 82.12.63.55 (talk) 11:02, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jnestorius, I was asking about (a), wondering if CUP had a parallel to Oxford spelling. Nyttend backup (talk) 13:07, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oxford spelling is just the retention of a convention that was standard British English a hundred years ago. The standard has changed (partly to simplify teaching in British schools), but Oxford hasn't. Cambridge has moved with the standard, but have no variation on standard British spelling for their British publications. Dbfirs 07:35, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(OR based on years of voracious reading) British publishers usually do not translate American authors into British English, American publishers usually do translate British authors into American English. DuncanHill (talk) 13:43, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Female version of Praitōr (Greek)

Hi there, I've been looking for female versions of some Greek titles, and one that has me stymied is Praitōr (πραίτωρ). Thanks CsikosLo (talk) 18:10, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is that a military title ? If so, there may not have been a female equivalent, if females were not allowed to serve, at least at that rank. StuRat (talk) 18:30, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Praetrix is a Latin title. Could that be related? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:40, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In ancient Rome, a "praetor" sometimes had judicial functions and sometimes was a military commander. Traditionally, praetors ranked below consuls and above other "magistrates". A woman could never be officially a Roman praetor. Most of the first few pages of Google results for "praetrix" come from role-playing and/or alternate history sites, or from poorly scanned Latin books with lots of OCR errors. If the word Praetrix really existed in ancient Latin, it likely referred either to women doing things in non-Roman cultures similar to what a Praetor did at Rome, or to the wife of a Praetor (similar to the word flaminica, which means the wife of a priest, and so on)... AnonMoos (talk) 10:08, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I can imagine a Byzantine form of this would be "praitorissa", but I don't see any evidence for that title actually existing...there are some results for "praetorissa" but they all seem to be early modern German women. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:53, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 4

Tutunick

Hello everybody. How do you pronounce Tutunick, as in Brian Tutunick? — ObZorD^T 05:38, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Katia Tiutiunnik pronounces her name tyoo-tyoo-nik. The spelling is slightly different but I assume they're variations on the same theme. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:39, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A name's pronunciation is not necessarily connected to its etymology: e.g. the article about Travis Zajac says his name is pronounced /ˈzeɪdʒæk/ even though his Polish ancestors pronounced theirs as [ˈzajɔ̃ts]. --92.27.207.68 (talk) 08:44, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I used to run into this all the time with phone clients. I had a Ms. Kadlaczek, (kad-la-check) who got very angry that I didn't know it was pronounced "Cadillac." (Why not Mercedes Benz?)

I had a woman named (Albanian) Ms. Hoxhaj. She was very confused when I called her Ms. Hodge-eye, said "Hocks-hodge", then said, "Oh, you must speak Albanian like my husband."

Then there was Mr. Lifschitz who was outraged I pronounced it as spelt. When I asked him how he would like it pronounced, he said, "Correctly!" I suspect he had a big styrofoam nose. μηδείς (talk) 18:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would pronounce it /tuˈtu.nɪk/ without hesitation. —Stephen (talk) 12:45, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's not particularly helpful. Americans may pronounce tu as too, giving too-too-nik, but in Britain and Commonwealth countries, tu would be pronounced t'yoo as in "tunic", as Jack said above. So the question is still, how is Brian Tutunick pronounced? Akld guy (talk) 21:34, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The answer is: how the person called Tutunick wants it to be pronounced. As example, the pronunciation of the last name of the current Premier of Queensland, Annastacia Palaszczuk.--Shirt58 (talk) 02:25, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese names for Malaysian cities

The majority of the cities of Peninsular Malaysia have a Chinese name that is unsurprisingly a simple phonetic rendition. For example:
Alor Setar - 亞羅士打 Yàluóshìdǎ, Ipoh - 怡保 Yíbǎo, Kuala Terengganu - 瓜拉登嘉樓 Guālādēngjiālóu, Kuantan - 關丹 Guāndān and so on.
But some of them have a Chinese name, sometimes more than one, that is completely different from the Malay one. For example:
Alor Setar - 米都 Mǐdōu (another name), Johor Bahru - 新山 Xīnshān, Kuala Lumpur - 吉隆坡 Jílóngpō and 隆市 Lóngshì, Klang - 巴生 Bāshēng, Seremban - 芙蓉 Fúróng.
Does anyone know the etymology of these names? Why do they differ from the local ones? Thanks! --79.46.134.24 (talk) 23:17, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure that those are sound-alikes too. The Chinese /d/ pronunciation is often perceived as a t and even spoken as a hard t by non-native speakers. For example, taoism instead of daoism. Note on the Johor Bahru page that the Bahru means new in Malay. 新山 just means "new mountain". Maybe there is a mountain there? 吉隆坡 is likely another phonetic rendition. SSS (talk) 00:45, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

79.46.134.24 -- I wouldn't know the details, but probably some of the discrepancies are due to using non-Mandarin forms of Chinese in the transcriptions. For example, if you look at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%90%89 , you can see that the character 吉 has a whole range of pronunciations with initial "k" in various dialects... AnonMoos (talk) 08:51, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, see Languages of Malaysia#Malaysian Chinese languages which has Mandarin in fifth place with Hokkien and Hakka in the lead. Alansplodge (talk) 10:10, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Alor Setar is the capital of Kedah, and "Kedah is considered the "rice bowl" of Malaysia, accounting for about half of Malaysia's total production of rice", hence Midou "rice center".

Johor Bahru "was known as "Little Swatow (Shantou)", as most of the Chinese are from Shantou, China", and "bahru" means "new" in Malay, hence Xinshan, "new shan(tou)" (the difference in tones may be dialectal or from tone sandhi).

Jilongpo is certainly phonetic, as said before, and Longshi is a short form for Jilongpo.

Furong is phonetical from the older name of Seremban, Sungai Ujong. (note that rong is not pronounced as in English wrong in any Chinese dialect)

Basheng is given an etymology from Malay "pasang" (air pasang "high water" this is justified in other sources by the fact the town was accessible from sea during high tide only) in Wiktionary, but it might be connected to the old name of Klang, Pengkalan Batu, hence also at least partly phonetical).

See also Transcription into Chinese characters for general principles of transcription into Chinese.

Шурбур (talk) 10:17, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 5

How exactly do you read this?

(unaspirated) /p/ - I watched YouTube videos, and they all make the sound sound like a soft b. It doesn't sound like a p phoneme at all. But I'm not talking about the sound. I'm talking about the slash. How do you say the slash? Do you just say slash-make a soft b sound-slash? Or do you say slash-pee-slash even though it sounds like a soft b? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 03:45, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

First, the interpretation of what goes between phoneme slashes is dependent on the specific language concerned, so /p/ with respect to English would include [pʰ] (aspirated), [p̚] (unreleased) etc. In any linguistics class that I was ever in, written "/p/" on paper or chalkboard would be read out as /ðə foʊniːm piː/...

-- AnonMoos (talk) 08:41, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

AnonMoos has it right. The sound is not a "soft b" but a /p/ with no puff of air following. (English /b/ is voiced and unaspirated; /p^h/ is voiceless and unaspirated. Voicing and aspiration are independent phenomena, many Indian languages have all four possible combinations.)

Learning phonology from text is like expecting to ride a bike after reading a manual. You need a good tutor or course with feedback from a live teacher, since the book or video can't actually hear you. See if you can audit a class or get a trained French or Spanish tutor, since those languages have unaspirated /p/. German /p^h/ is aspirated, like English. μηδείς (talk) 17:59, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

/p^h/ sounds like a p as in "peas". /p/ (without aspiration) sounds like a b, as in "puppies" and "spoil". That said, for some reason, I always find that the Mandarin b and English b sound almost identical. The only difference is that the Mandarin b is sometimes unvoiced (no vibrations). So, /p/ is really a b phoneme. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 00:02, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be confused between /.../ transcriptions and [...] transcriptions, and between phonemes and phones. AnonMoos (talk) 00:37, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, the initial and medial /p/s in puppies are both aspirated (the double 'pp' is just a matter of orthography). This is simply not a matter amenable to a non-face to face discussion. The bottom line in English is that /p/ has an aspirated and unaspirated allophone, each of which is a voiceless consonant, while /b/ is voiced, and has no conditioned allophones. In other languages this works out often very differently. μηδείς (talk) 00:51, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

German von etw leben

How would you translate "Das Projekt lebt von der freiwilligen Mitarbeit"?--Tuchiel (talk) 13:14, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would go with "The project depends on voluntary co-operation." --Viennese Waltz 14:26, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Native speaker here. +1 to VieWa´s translation. Bear in mind that “von etwas leben” may also be used in a more literal sense (referring to nourishment or monetary income). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:01, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

German speaker here: How about "The project is carried by voluntary co-operation"? --87.147.189.144 (talk) 13:34, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Word by word: "The project is kept alive by voluntary contributions". --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 14:12, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"kept alive" tends to the meaning of "life-sustaining-measures" --87.147.188.45 (talk) 22:12, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"sustained"? Clarityfiend (talk) 00:37, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"supported by"? Akld guy (talk) 02:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who studied German at school, I would say the "word by word" translation is "The project lives by voluntary co - operation". So far as I can see, the construction is active, not passive. 92.8.220.234 (talk) 13:00, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"… studied German at …": Which level? Any degree? --87.147.187.185 (talk) 13:39, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 6

Greek era

[9]

Is this written in ancient Greek or a more modern form? I'm on a slow Internet connection, so I can't load anything except the text-only version (which, judging by the English transcriptions of certain names, is a bad OCR job), and I'm not seeing a preface in that version. It's somehow related to Antiphon (orator), so it would make sense if this were in ancient Greek, but maybe it's a modern translation or something of the sort. [I'm also unsure how it got the Latin title.] I checked WorldCat, but [10] claims that it's written in modern Greek, while [11] says ancient, and clearly they're referring to the same book.

Nyttend backup (talk) 17:06, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know much Greek, but I see instances of iota subscript, which I believe mark it as Classical. --ColinFine (talk) 17:14, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That appears to be a concordance of the words in Antiphon's surviving works, so the lemmata and quoted contexts are clearly in ancient (Attic) Greek. The title and apparatus are in Latin because that's how things were done at the time (and still are in some cases; cf. the Oxford Classical Texts series). It's assumed that anyone who would be interested in such a thing can read Latin, no matter his or her native language. Deor (talk) 17:31, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is apparently rendered in (post-)Attic Greek given the use of μητερ (not ματερ) for "mother". It seems like a later transcription in Koine, as if one were reading Chaucer in modern translation. The large number of biblical words as one skims the text seems odd, as the Septuagint apparently post-dated the Orator. You'll need a specialist. μηδείς (talk) 19:51, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reminded of the anecdote about some rather unworldly CofE Bishop who, when chatting to his gardener, would follow all the Greek aphorisms and words he used with English translations, recognising that a person in such a lowly position had probably not learned classical Greek, but didn't bother to translate the Latin, because of course everybody understood that. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.217.210.199 (talk) 19:56, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Phi or chi; which letter came first??

In the way the Greek alphabet is best known today, phi comes before chi. But some sources say that in Western Greek dialects, chi came before phi. Any reason for this?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:12, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In Bright and Daniels, The World's Writing Systems, Table 21.2 General Comparative Table of Early Greek Alphabets (8th-7th c. B.C.E.) lists Chi before Phi, while Table 21.3 Detailed Comparison of Eastern and Western Alphabets lists Phi first; but I can't find any discussion of the order in that section (by Pierre Swiggers) at all. --ColinFine (talk) 17:31, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Georgia_guy -- when the sound [pʰ] was written with a single letter, then everywhere in Greek-speaking areas basically the same shape was used (allowing for local variations). By contrast, when [kʰ] was written with a single letter, two quite different shapes were used, one "X"-like, and the other "Ψ"-like (though with straight lines, and sometimes having a form like File:Alph. Ahiram lettre 11.svg). In the Etruscan alphabet, the letter Φ comes before the "Ψ"-shaped [kʰ] (see Old Italic script). AnonMoos (talk) 03:52, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 7

Using the word "of"

In proper English grammar, would I say "analysis of science or mathematics" or would I say "analysis of science or of mathematics"? --2601:642:C301:119A:C54E:B1EF:D0E9:D355 (talk) 01:10, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Either is OK. If you can give the full context, one may be preferable. StuRat (talk) 01:50, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer "analysis of science or mathematics", because I think the extra "of" in the other sentence is redundant. Both are grammatical correct, though. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 02:13, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ironically, your last sentence is grammatically incorrect. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:55, 7 October 2017 (UTC) [reply]

"Never use two words when one suffices."

Or...

"Do not ever make use of a pair of words at whatever time a word used singularly can be made practical and effective for the expression of the same thing." —2606:A000:4C0C:E200:6130:AA57:396F:78BA (talk) 06:58, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

KISS principle (originally from naval engineering systems but seems applicable here). Alansplodge (talk) 11:44, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"For your homework please write an essay on the analysis of science or of mathematics" would be preferable to "For your homework please write an essay on the analysis of science or mathematics". Sometime keeping it simple makes it sound stupid. DuncanHill (talk) 22:27, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

peruna

In H. L. Mencken's hilarious essay on Thorstein Veblen (in the First Series of the Prejudices, 1919) I came across this sentence: Almost every year sees another intellectual Munyon arise, with his infallible peruna for all the current malaises. Finnish happens to be my first language, and in Finnish peruna means potato, but surely that's not what Mencken means here? And who or what the hell is Munyon? I use the annotated Library of America edition, but the annotations explain neither word. --Edith Wahr (talk) 21:24, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

James M. Munyon ? If so, then "Munyon" might be used as a synonym for "fraud". And peruna might refer to peruna tonic, a "patent medicine" which was really just a way to get drunk: [12]. StuRat (talk) 21:59, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

ah, thanks. James M. doesn't show up in Munyon, though, it's not that I didn't look it up before posting...--Edith Wahr (talk) 22:23, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

He/she/it endings of verbs

It seems rather strange that out of all the person verb endings in English, the only one that is different is the he/she/it form.

Is there a particular reason that the -s or -es ending is still added only for this particular form,and is there any reason why it could not be altered to fit in with the others in a simple regular pattern so whatever person is being used,the end is identical? Lemon martini (talk) 22:38, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]