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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) at 01:02, 19 December 2017 (Archiving 2 discussion(s) from Talk:Donald Trump) (bot). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archive 65←Archive 67Archive 68Archive 69Archive 70Archive 71→Archive 75

Mueller investigation

the Justice Department appointed Comey's predecessor Robert Mueller as special counsel to investigate Russia's interference in the presidential election, potential links between Russia and Trump campaign associates, and any related matters. - This sentence on Mueller's investigation is quite long and prominent. Yet this is hardly even mentioned in the body. Mueller's name isn't even mentioned elsewhere! Reckon this should be shortened to the Justice Department appointed a special counsel to investigate Russia's interference in the presidential election, potential links between Russia and Trump campaign associates, and any related matters. and some more information on the investigation added to the dismissal of Comey section since this is one of the most important matters related to his administration. Galobtter (talk) 17:09, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

I gave a shot at rephrasing the sentence in the lead:[1] not mentioning Mueller by name, but linking to the dedicated article about his investigation. It's still a bit long for the lead, though. — JFG talk 18:58, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
The article needs more inputed in the article. We should mention him by name per WP:WEIGHT.Casprings (talk) 22:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to stick to the official portrait?

There are enough threads about the picture already, consensus is clear. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:54, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The old one seemed way better to me; he looks lunatic (hey, just saying!) with that goofy grin portrait. 2.51.17.85 (talk) 17:34, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

It's convention to use the free official portrait as the infobox image. NoMoreHeroes (talk) 20:25, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
If he’s grinning, people say the grin is goofy. If he’s frowning, people say he should be grinning. It’s useful to have a standard answer, like we just use the official portrait. Otherwise we’ll still be debating the image when Barron Trump or Charlotte Clinton Mezvinsky is president. O3000 (talk) 20:51, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I don't think Gorsuch belongs in the lead

It seems very odd to mention Gorsuch by name in the lead section. The President appoints scores of people, his cabinet to start with, and many other influential civil servants such as Directors of the FBI, the CIA and so on and so forth. No cabinet member, not even the most senior such as Rex Tillerson, and no other appointees either, are mentioned by name in the lead section. In the entire world the position of judge, even on the country's supreme court, would be seen as junior to the entire cabinet and 99% of the world would regard it as a routine appointment of a civil servant. I don't think Gorsuch is regarded as more influential in the US than other Trump appointees such as Tillerson and other cabinet members either. --Tataral (talk) 12:03, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree that it would be better to leave “Neil Gorsuch” out of the lead, but still say he successfully nominated a Supreme Court Justice. It’s a life position, and the Court now occupies a bigger role in American life than courts do in the vast majority of other countries (e.g. the people of Ireland legalized gay marriage by voting on it whereas it was done by judicial decision in the U.S.). But we needn’t name Gorsuch in the lead, because it’s too much detail, and anyway the whole reason they wear black robes is to symbolize that individual personalities aren’t supposed to matter. Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:02, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
The judgement of whether to include it should not be based upon the the role being bigger compared to other countries but the notability of Trump in appointing him. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:13, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Agree. In an administration bereft of achievements, the appointment is quite important. Trump himself has touted it as being one of great accomplishments. You can see this CNN article where it is talked about as possibly greatest achievment till april, and nothing much has happened since. Galobtter (talk) 17:18, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
The nomination of Neil Gorsuch was a particularly controversial and widely-covered story, which has lasting impact on the balance of the US Supreme Court; this is why it belongs in the lead section. However we should certainly review the contents of this paragraph, which is meant to summarize the key issues of Trump's presidency so far. The one-off missile strike in Syria in response to a chemical attack did not develop into a bigger story, and should imho be removed. — JFG talk 18:39, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
"Lasting impact"? We don't know that yet, that's WP:CRYSTALBALLing. He has served for a couple of months, less than most of Trump's cabinet members who have far more power (e.g. Tillerson who directs US foreign policy and has some 70,000 people working directly for him, compared to the handful of assistants a judge gets), and hasn't done anything noteworthy. The appointment of a judge is not, in itself, an "achievement" any more than the appointment of his cabinet, or his other statutory duties. The fact that he would even see this as an "achievement" merely demonstrates his lack of actual achievements, but still, Gorsuch doesn't deserve to be the only appointee mentioned in the lead (among many who are far more influential and whose appointments were also widely discussed in RS). --Tataral (talk) 22:08, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
@Tataral: Please note that I did not call the Gorsuch appointment an "achievement", either in the article or in this discussion. We certainly cannot guess what his lasting impact will be, if any; however most sources reporting on this appointment did mention that it would surely have an impact, especially as the last Obama Supreme Court nominee had been filibusted by the GOP-controlled Senate, paving the way for a more conservative Justice. We go by sources… — JFG talk 22:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Support removal of Gorsuch from the lede. In a biography of Trump's entire life, the appointment isn't especially noteworthy. We do not mention the two justices appointed by Obama in the lede of Barack Obama. The noteworthy aspect of Gorsuch's appointment came prior to Trump's election, when Republicans employed extraordinary measures to prevent Obama from appointing Garland - nothing to do with Trump. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:31, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Just to clarify, the proposal above (at the start of this thread) is that we stop mentioning “Gorsuch by name” in the lead, and I support that. But I also support mentioning in the lead that he successfully nominated an (unnamed) Supreme Court Justice, for the reasons I already gave. Anythingyouwant (talk) 13:45, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
It is not a significant achievement in his life. It's fine in the body, but not in the lede. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:49, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
It is correct that the proposal was to remove just the name, not necessarily the fact that he had appointed a judge. If Trump really considers this appointment his life's work, I don't really care that much if we mention that he appointed a judge without naming him (although I personally would consider that silly, I don't find it worth the effort to oppose it). In that context the key issue appears to be the appointment of a judge in itself, not the specific person who was appointed. --Tataral (talk) 15:58, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose removing it, or removing Gorsuch's name (what does that accomplish?). Leave it in the lede, as is. This is his only major legislative accomplishment, and possibly the single most lasting effect of his presidency. It's an eight-word sentence, there's room for it. We manage to find room for 20 words about his travel ban, which is nowhere near as significant or long-lasting. --MelanieN (talk) 15:09, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Agree. Like I said above, RSes are talking about it being his most significant accomplishment. I don't really see a way to reword it either to save words while removing Gorsuch's name. Galobtter (talk) 15:17, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose removal. Personally, I don’t think appointing a justice is an accomplishment since a president is handed the opportunity and such appointments have an 80% approval rate. But, what I personally think is irrelevant. If RS say it’s an accomplishment, and there are so few accomplishments, it belongs in the lead. O3000 (talk) 15:38, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose removing Gorsuch from lede. Widely cited by RS as the only thing POTUS has given his backers in the first 9+ months of his presidency. And a significant number of his voters were driven by the single issue of court appointments. (As many editors here know.) SPECIFICO talk 18:09, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose removal. Given the power of the Supreme Court and how a single justice can be the difference in how a case is decided, appointing a Supreme Court Justice is one of the most important things that modern presidents do. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:05, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Support removal. This is a no-brainer. Supreme Court appointments aren't mentioned in the lead for neither Barack Obama, George W. Bush, nor Bill Clinton. Fixed245 (talk) 04:10, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
And the fact that Trump has accomplished little doesn't mean that we should elevate otherwise pedestrian accomplishments to the lead. It means that we should let his list of actions speak for themselves, without embellishment. Fixed245 (talk) 06:36, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Shouldn't the redirect in the lead for the Paris Agreement go to United States withdrawal from the Paris Agreement? I also suggest adding the 2017 United States–Saudi Arabia arms deal to the lead on foreign policy. It is a highly notable event in foreign policy, and just as notable as the partial undoing of the Cuban Thaw.

As I'm a new account, I can not change it. Anyone mind updating it, seems like a no brainer! DoDoDoDoDoDo (talk) 03:29, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

The first one doesn't make sense, as you'd expect the link for "Paris Agreement" to go to the Paris agreement article. The second one seems ok, but the body also may need to add that. Galobtter (talkó tuó mió) 08:53, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Why is this not brought up? AHC300 (talk) 12:32, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

It's there, look under Donald_Trump#Impeachment_efforts_and_polling. ValarianB (talk) 12:39, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Inclusion of Polling within Party

I disagree with this edit. It’s true that polling better among your own party is normal for a president, but it’s very abnormal for there to be such a huge disparity between the parties regarding an incumbent president. Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:17, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Agree with you. The sentence includes polling of both parties and says it is lowest among opposition party - hardly "Seems like this was added to blunt the "least popular" part". Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:24, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Oh please. The metric to measure presidential popularity for the lat 80-90 years is the presidential job approval rating, not a breakdown by party. The current president's approval rating is abysmal, as borne out by the sources, Newswweek, Time, among many others. This was a naked attempt to soften the freefall. ValarianB (talk) 15:34, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree that the way we have it now does convey free fall, whereas the reality is different within the President’s party, which is very unusual. Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:57, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Either way it is probably at this time not appropriate for the lead. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:19, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Yeah I don't think anyone is disputing that. Galobtter (pingó mió) 16:31, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Support including Trump's historically awful approval rating in the lead We haven't seen approval ratings this low since The Fall of the Roman Empire. If Trump's low approval rating isn't encyclopedic, then then project should shut down and call it a day. Are you people shitting me? Trump's low approval rating is not "lead-worthy"? Why again? Indeed, his approval rating is so obviously lead-worthy as to call into question the objectivity and judgment of any editor who thinks otherwise.70.208.69.150 (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on November 26, 2017 AD

POV rant O3000 (talk) 18:44, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Note If someone wants to revert to before this IP edited this page then special:diff/812145405] looks fine. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:08, 26 November 2017 (UTC) Comment Please see my not at the bottom. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:04, 26 November 2017 (UTC) Please add steak salesman to the list of Trump's occupations. Please see more details here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=LyONt_ZH_aw https://thinkprogress.org/a-definitive-history-of-trump-steaks-e0e6fc31b689/

Also don't forget to add racist landlord to the list of occupations. See the details here: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/29/donald-trump-blacks-lawsuit_n_855553.html https://www.villagevoice.com/2015/07/20/how-a-young-donald-trump-forced-his-way-from-avenue-z-to-manhattan/


Also add Putin's agent, per Steele dossier: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/15/christopher-steele-trump-russia-dossier-accurate https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/10/25/what-the-trump-dossier-says-and-what-it-doesnt/


Also add multi-level marketing guru, as shown here: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/trumps-ponzi-scheme/475254/ http://prospect.org/article/trumps-always-been-con-artist-now-hes-sucker http://nymag.com/nymag/features/70831/index2.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/23/the-trump-network-sought-to-make-people-rich-but-left-behind-disappointment/ http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2017/02/the_trump_era_will_be_a_boon_for_multilevel_marketing_companies.html


It is important we mention these episodes and add some objectivity to our article, which contains an embarrassing amount of cheerleading and fawning. Even if you THINK that Trump is a "successful businessman" rather than a con artist, racist, and fraud, it is important that your incorrect views be balanced by the correct ones, such as mine. Remember, Wikipedia is NOT ADVERTISING. 70.208.69.150 (talk) 15:42, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


Note I support the removal of this talkpage section. It looks like BLP violation and unhelpful nonsense to me, but I don't want to overstep 1RR. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:58, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

"asking Muslim leaders to drive out extremists" in the lead

How in the world is this important enough to be in the lead paragraph about his accomplishments? It's not an official policy, it was a statement made at one speech, and it almost never appears in any other lists of presidential action. It should be removed.

Also, his recent rise in conservative politics was driven largely by his role as the most prominent voice in the debunked Birther conspiracy theory. There should be a sentence on that, after "he long expressed interest in politics". Fixed245 (talk) 22:33, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree that asking Muslim leaders to drive out extremists should be removed from the lead. His views on birther should be in another discussion I think, so that we don't go off topic. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:46, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
Agree at least with the first issue. Also agree with separating the issues. O3000 (talk) 22:51, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
It looks like we have a consensus, so someone can make the edits (can't edit the page myself). Fixed245 (talk) 02:53, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
I also agree (on removing it and seperating the issues). If I remember correctly it was JFG who added it to replace previous wording about syrian airstrikes. Galobtter (talk) 03:38, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Been away for a while, but for the record I don't mind the removal of this tidbit. Looked more significant to me than the ephemeral Syrian airstrike, given that the Saudi-US relationship is being reinforced since Trump and Bin Salman have taken the lead. We'll see how this develops in the coming months. That's more about the presidency than about Trump's bio anyway. — JFG talk 10:50, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Is Trump a conspiracy theorist?

Trump just retweeted a white nationalist conspiracy theorist website and doesn't believe his own access Hollywood tape. Why is he not labeled this? AHC300 (talk) 13:26, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@AHC300: Do you have a WP:RS for that claim? Also remember that RT's don't equal endorsements. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 13:42, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
It wasn't a retweet. He quoted the tweet and even thanked them for their site. That's as clear an endorsement as you're going to get. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:06, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
We don't use the label unless we have solid RS for the label (sometimes not even then; see "liar"). Without those links this is WP:FORUM and should be hatted. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:39, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
No, and neither is Hillary, even though she believes in the so-called "vast right-wing conspiracy"...Zigzig20s (talk) 15:29, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Reliable sources seem to refer to him in as such, or some variation of that term-

Hoponpop69 (talk) 19:51, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

And out of the tens of thousands of reliable sources about this article's topic don't refer to him as a conspiracy theorist? We have to look at the topic as whole. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:18, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Note Category:American conspiracy theorists includes this page currently. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:47, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Trump's longstanding involvement in the birther thing makes him a conspiracy theorist. The sources listed above are compelling. --Pete (talk) 22:16, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Regardless of your stance on Trump, I'd say calling him a conspiracy theorist, especially in the header of the article, is a mistake for a myriad of reasons. There is a pretty large discrepancy between supporting or believing in conspiracies and actively attempting to persuade others to believe or support said conspiracies. People like Mark Dice and Alex Jones could reasonably be called conspiracy theorists because their profession involves the an argument for conspiracy theories and the idea that they are true, whereas even if Trump had tried to make a Tweet telling people that they should believe in some white nationalist conspiracy theory because he read about it, that is still not his job nor is it even something that's relevant to his role as President. And in this case, he's even farther from that definition considering he did not specifically endorse a conspiracy theory, but merely endorsed another business whose goal is to push conspiracy theories as fact. His denial of the Access Hollywood tapes would also not really classify him as a conspiracy theorist in my eyes since a conspiracy theory usually involves something on a much larger scale. Benmite (talk) 22:43, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Well, how does Wikipedia handle conspiracy theorists? Do you have to be a full-time professional to be labelled a CT here? I see people listed [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:John_F._Kennedy_conspiracy_theorists here] and here and here who have other jobs, including politician. I think it goes beyond merely believing in a CT or two, otherwise we'd have millions in the category, but when there's a global audience identifying Trump as a CT, I think we've gone well beyond the point of keeping oddball views private, wouldn't you? --Pete (talk) 23:45, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Donald Trump still privately believes in Obama's birth certificate is fake. http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/28/politics/donald-trump-barack-obama-birth-certificate-nyt/index.html AHC300 (talk) 11:45, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

To answer the original question posed, is the Pope a Catholic? Hoponpop69 (talk) 17:50, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Shouldn't something about the sexual misconduct allegations be in the lead?

This seems to be the standard for everyone else post-Weinstein. It's not like the publicity or the detail isn't there. We could say, as the last sentence of the campaign paragraph, "[T]rump has also been the subject of numerous sexual misconduct allegations, many of which arose during the campaign." Nick845 (talk) 07:41, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Ehh..unlike say for weinstein or spacey, there haven't been any long-term effects of it - I believe weinstein and spacey's careers are over while these allegations were treated as just part of the campaign. Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:40, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
I think due to the quantity of claims against Trump and the time span, it is worth putting in a sentence like "Trump has been alleged of various cases of sexual misconduct". Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 11:05, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Possible. Hmm regarding the wording - just had a thought - who exactly is doing the alleging in regards to the billy bush recording? But anyhow, something like "Allegations of sexual misconduct arose during the campaign" is less awkward, and the allegations are mostly during that time. Galobtter (pingó mió) 11:23, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
The Bush video is not an allegation but a fact; nobody has claimed it was fabricated; it just happens to be covered in an article titled "allegations" because that's preferable to any alternative. Similarly, just for the sake of brevity, we wouldn't worry about that little consideration if something were added to the lead. I don't have an opinion as to inclusion in the lead, yet. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:51, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Looking at the 140 edits to Charlie Rose in the last two days, one would think at least a sentence in this article’s lead would make sense. But as said above, the allegations against Trump and the Hollywood tape seem to have had no effect. I probably wouldn’t add it but wouldn’t argue against it. O3000 (talk) 12:29, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

There’s currently a court case involving Summer Zervos. If Pres. Trump is held liable in that case, it should probably go in the lead. There’s no rush to predict that verdict though. Anythingyouwant (talk) 13:11, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Well of course - but those allegations can still be significant. We're not predicting that verdict.. Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:40, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
They would be a heck of a lot more significant if he’s held liable, and until then there’s a presumption of innocence, so I’d treat it like opinion polling and a zillion other things by putting it later in the BLP. There’s not a looming election that requires people to make an imminent judgment about it. If we put accusations of non-consensual sex or sexual harassment into the Bill Clinton lead, I would still object to it here because there’s an ongoing court case here along with a presumption of innocence. Anythingyouwant (talk) 13:57, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Support adding to the lede. Has a huge about of coverage and cultural ramifications are huge.Casprings (talk) 16:39, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Does the lede of Hillary Clinton include the phrase "Lock her up"? No, it does not. So this is off topic.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:07, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Being convicted is not a prerequisite for inclusion in the lead. There aren't many readers who don't know what "allegations" means. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:12, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Well, allegations are gossip. Gossip is not encyclopedic. Anybody can be accused of anything anytime by anyone. I think that would be a BLP violation and should not appear in the lede. If he ever gets convicted or even admits it like Bill Clinton did, then sure. But I believe it sets a dangerous precedent if we add it to the lede--no matter how one feels about President Trump.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:28, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
"Allegation" is not the same as "gossip" -- Could you rephrase that with a bit more reasoning behind your opposition? I do think it would be helpful if one of those who favors inclusion could suggest specific text for us to consider. SPECIFICO talk 22:43, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose in lead this is not the same as Weinstein, et al. Those people admitted their wrongdoing. If we include it in the lead it will be in violation of our BLP policy and also against our policy of what is included in the lead. Sir Joseph (talk) 18:33, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with the argument (which we have recently heard from Sarah Sanders and from Trump himself) that if the guy admits it and apologizes, hey, throw the bum out - but if he denies it and calls his accusers liars, then all is fine and dandy with him. What kind of moral lesson is that? As long as you keep insisting you didn't do anything wrong you are free and clear, but if you take responsibility like a grownup you are scum? We at Wikipedia need to evaluate people by the evidence - and not take "oh, well, he denies it" as ending the conversation. --MelanieN (talk) 03:00, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose for the same reason others pointed out above. I made a similar comment regarding Woody Allen's lede, in both cases the allegations had little effect on their careers. This makes them different from the likes of Bob Packwood or Harvey Weinstein, whose careers were ended over allegations. Also, wasn't there an RfC about this during the election? The Billy Bush tape and misconduct allegations were in the lede but were removed.LM2000 (talk) 08:45, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per WP:UNDUE. The sexual misconduct allegations have not, as of yet, significantly affected Trump. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:29, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Include. As far as I remember this already was included in the lead and we had a clear consensus to include it. It has obviously been unilaterally removed without consensus, and should be put back in. There's no question at all that it's highly significant and noteworthy; there are no serious encyclopedic arguments against its inclusion. --Tataral (talk) 22:54, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
But this article is his bio, not his Presidency. SPECIFICO talk 00:20, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
Then it's even less relevant. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:30, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
Wha? North Korea is an important national security matter that he's dealing with as president not in any personal capacity. Whatever credible allegations or evidence relate to his personal character or actions would go in this article about Trump the man. They may be relevant to his person and character without affecting his professional performance in any capacity. SPECIFICO talk 01:38, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
You seem to confuse the fact that North Korea is an important issue to the world in general, with what is important in a biography of Donald Trump. The allegations against him are hugely important in Trump's biography; they dominated coverage of Trump on a global scale for months on end, during the entire election, and they have an in-depth article specifically on the allegations. That very fact alone demonstrates that they are important enough to be summarized in the lead section on its main subject. While perhaps not dominating coverage any longer due to other scandals, Russia etc., extensive coverage of this issue also continues until this day, but it's a not a requirement that there is eternal and constant coverage of an issue, and that wouldn't be a reasonable requirement either. --Tataral (talk) 06:59, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
What I am saying is that per WP:WEIGHT, the amount of coverage in this article should reflect the amount of coverage found in reliable sources and that North Korea has received far more coverage in regards to this article's topic than the sexual misconduct allegations. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:20, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
I doubt that. --Tataral (talk) 06:28, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Actually, I was going to discuss whether in the foreign policy part we should add north korea. I think the main opposition to that is that nothing actually has happened - it has received a lot of coverage though Galobtter (pingó mió) 04:29, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Al Franken does not have his sexual misconduct allegations in his lead, so no, not every post-Weinstein guy accused of sexual misconduct has their allegations in their lead. 70.44.154.16 (talk) 02:01, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Putting these types of unsubstantiated accusations into the lead of an article is inappropriate. Unless he admits to it, gets convicted over it, or the allegations can be substantiated with some kind of proof it shouldn't be in the lead section. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:48, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Weight is determined by the coverage of allegations in proportion to overall coverage of the subject of the article. TFD (talk) 02:56, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose John F. Kennedy doesn't have anything about his sexcapades in the lead, and Bill Clinton only has In 1998, Clinton was impeached by the House of Representatives for matters related to a scandal that involved White House employee Monica Lewinsky. Clinton was acquitted by the Senate in 1999 and proceeded to complete his term in office. There may be problems with the lede, but adding this would not improve it. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:35, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose People are citing WP:UNDUE, which is appropriate, but we need to think what we mean by it. This is his biography. He is 70 years old. For most of those 70 years he has been a very public figure, the subject of heavy coverage. Our coverage, and especially our lede, need to be proportionate to that total coverage. These sexual allegations have only come up, or become significant to his public persona, in the last year or two. Even now they are less covered than (say) his Tweets. It is appropriate for us to have the information in the article text, but this is simply not a big enough issue, in the entire sweep of his life, to put in the lede. That could change if it becomes career-ending or something, but unless that appears likely (and if it didn't end his campaign it is not likely to end his presidency) it does not belong in the lede IMO. --MelanieN (talk) 02:45, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
    1) Even if it were true that this issue had only been covered in the last two years, it wouldn't be a relevant argument. Trump derives 95% (or more) of his notability from his political career that he started in that period, and everything he did in the 70 years before that is of far less importance as far as his notability and thus this article is concerned. 2) In addition: The allegations in question have received coverage in RS for some 30 years. --Tataral (talk) 06:32, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose I have been against including Weinstein-era allegations in the lede because it's UNDUE and RECENTISM. And I think that's even more so in the case of Trump than Weinstein or Kevin Spacey, since, like others pointed out, in those cases the allegations played a much bigger role in their careers than in Trump's. I think the lede here currently does a pretty good job at covering the main aspects of Trump's bio without getting into too much detail. NoMoreHeroes (talk) 04:02, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong Support Sexual misconduct allegations are in Clinton lead, and he wasn't accusing of raping 19 women, some as young as 13 years old. Trump's admitted non-consensual vagina-grabbing activities are clearly one of the most notable things about him.70.208.69.150 (talk) 15:51, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

The points that have been made look like the following: A) litigation isn't final yet (well, that's true for everyone who's been recently accused so far, and the proposed sentence doesn't mention the legal side anyway); B) "innocent until proven guilty" (see above); C) he hasn't admitted wrongdoing (except he has - Access Hollywood tape - and the allegations are substantial and detailed; regardless, the same is true for Clarence Thomas, even Weinstein, etc.); D) this had little effect on his reputation (how do we know? The majority of the country did not vote for him or actively dislikes him, and it could certainly be in part due to these allegations. I assume polling would show that a substantial portion of Americans are aware of this and find that it colors their perception of him); (E) not important enough relative to coverage in the article (could easily say the same about all of the policy accomplishments listed); F) the allegations only arose recently (but they concern conduct that goes back for decades). Overall, I don't see how a single sentence is any way undue, biased, or inconsistent with the broad treatment given to figures in similar positions.

Still, if there continues to be a consensus (even one seemingly dominated by Trump sympathizers), I won't press the case. I do think there's one obvious edit that can be made: moving the sub-section on the allegations from the section on the campaign to the section on his personal life. That would be a much more appropriate place; current placement conveys the misimpression that this was a run-of-the-mill political attack, limited to conduct that arose during the campaign. That in itself is biased. Nick845 (talk) 05:24, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

That's a false equivalence you make comparing Weinstein with Donald Trump and Clarence Thomas. Weinstein was on tape admitting to grabbing a specific woman's breast, there is no such evidence against Thomas. The allegations against Trump are not "substantial and detailed", telling by the way you provide no evidence of any sort, not even the tape where Trump never said he himself performs the sexual act everybody quotes from the footage. 70.44.154.16 (talk) 19:26, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
I really think everyone here should be forced to read the the article on allegations against Trump, top to bottom, before commenting. That's because you not only missed the point - evidence aside, all three figures have *publicly* denied any non-consensual conduct - but you also seem completely unaware of the depth of the Trump allegations. Nick845 (talk) 07:56, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose – This was campaign fodder. No significant case has been pursued after the election. We also didn't see a renewed slew of accusations against Trump after the Weinstein scandal, and you'd think Trump would be an easy target nowadays if there was any "meat" to the stories… — JFG talk 10:52, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Against whom is the Access Hollywood tape a sexual misconduct allegation against? PackMecEng (talk) 14:10, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
The Access Hollywood tape gives credibility to the many, many allegations of sexual misconduct against Trump. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:32, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
So basically no one? Especially since there is no one even saying he actually did those things. You would think with the number of people that came forward during the campaign someone would say "yup he did that thing he said he could do on that tape". It appears to have little to no lasting impact. PackMecEng (talk) 14:40, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
The reluctance to come forward with sexual abuse allegations is well-documented and well-understood, and it goes triple for allegations against Trump in today's political climate. If someone did come forward to say that Trump grabbed them by the pussy, it would be somewhat pointless unless they could produce 100% unimpeachable video of it happening, an extremely unlikely occurrence. It would simply be added to the pile of "unproven" allegations, and the accuser would become another perpetual target for harassment, death threats, etc. After seeing what the other accusers have gone through for no effect, most women would choose to just let it go, I think.
That any elected official, let alone the leader of the free world, could have said those things, true or not, has plenty of "lasting impact" with plenty of the population, American and otherwise.
Anyway, Kristin Anderson alleged that he "groped her beneath her skirt" and Jessica Leeds said he "tried to put his hand up her skirt". One in a nightclub, the other on an airplane. There's your pointless corroboration, already in the "unproven" pile. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:11, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Yeah I see where you are coming from on those prior accusations, though definitely not pointless. I had missed those two. I am still on the fence if it should be in the lead though. PackMecEng (talk) 19:43, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone have an objection to the sub-section move that I suggested? I think the argument for the status quo is that the allegations arose during the campaign. The argument for a change is that the allegations concern conduct that is A) non-political and B) goes back decades before the campaign. I think the latter case is clearly stronger. I can't edit the page directly, but if someone wants to go ahead and make the move, please do so. Nick845 (talk) 07:56, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
While some allegations date back decades, the fact they got RS coverage during the final weeks of the campaign and then vanished, would support keeping them in the campaign section. — JFG talk 10:50, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree with JFG. There's actually next to nothing about the allegations in this article, most of the relevant section is spent detailing the fallout from the Billy Bush tape, which occurred at the height of the election.LM2000 (talk) 11:13, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
"Vanished"? Are you aware there's an ongoing legal action? Are you aware that mainstream media coverage continues? You are *very* misinformed. Even still, every other part of the campaign section is about Trump's political conduct. Sexual misconduct allegations - Trump's personal conduct - stand out as a clear outlier. As for the content of the sub-section, you're right that a large portion of it is focused on the Bush tape. If anything, though, that's an argument for adding more detail about the other allegations. Basically, take your MAGA hat off and be objective. Nick845 (talk) 20:22, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Rather than tolerate WP:AGF violations in small amounts, I prefer a zero tolerance policy and nipping that in the bud. Don't make accusations of POV editing (I had to look up the MAGA acronym) without far more evidence than you have here. You could have made your point very well without that last sentence. Play the ball, not the man. A good move at this point would be to strike that. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:14, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Support inclusion on the basis that the allegations relate to Trump's career over decades, they include people such as Trump's wife, they are underscored by the "grab 'em by the pussy" tape, and they have been of contimuing mainstream media interest. If we are including similar allegations in similar bios, what's different about this one? --Pete (talk) 19:52, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

DJT Foundation in infobox

Is there a consensus to include this in the infobox? We don't have "Chairman of the Board of Clinton Foundation" in Bill Clinton's infobox, so I see no reason to include a similar entry here. NoMoreHeroes (talk) 22:11, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

WP:Other stuff exists or doesn't exist is not a valid argument unless a higher level consensus was made. I however do think that the removal of this could be appropriate. Not notable for the foundation. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:39, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
It looks a bit weird to include his chairmanship of the Trump Foundation while excluding his main role as chairman of the Trump Organization. I seem to recall there was consensus to exclude TTO chairmanship from the infobox, so the minor Foundation role should not be there either. — JFG talk 10:47, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
why was chairman changed to chair? AmYisroelChai (talk) 15:23, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Somebody objected to using a gendered word.[2] I'll remove the foundation role from the infobox anyway, as three people objected in this thread, and nobody argued for its inclusion yet. — JFG talk 16:14, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
I do not "[object] to using a gendered word." I could not find where the position was gendered, so I "corrected" my own edit. -- Sleyece (talk) 20:05, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
heres a link [1]
Fair enough, he is referenced as "Chairman." -- Sleyece (talk) 23:23, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://fconline.foundationcenter.org/grantmaker-profile/?collection=grantmakers&key=TRUM010

A writer?

Why is Trump not labeled a writer in the lead? Is it because that falls under his works as a businessman and politician? No need for any "support" or "oppose" comments, I am more interested in the reasons rather than in pushing for its inclusion in the lead.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 04:19, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

TheGracefulSlick Well it is not as important as his other stuff - he's known for being a flashy businessman and being on television, not really for being a writer - like you said, it falls under being a businessman. Also, lot of the books are written by ghostwriters. Most importantly, I don't think RS describe him as a writer, but they do describe him as a businessman. Galobtter (pingó mió) 04:29, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
That makes sense. My only reservation was that several of his books were successful. But they were business and political works. Thank you for your response.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 04:48, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

"Donald Trump is a businessman, television personality, and politician..."

I'd like to suggest that the opening sentence of the article be changed to something along the lines of what I have written in the heading of this section. Although I understand that his role as the POTUS is probably the part of that sentence which is the most pertinent to his role in modern society, I would argue that since being President is a title, it's not what should appear as what he is. If you take a look at every other article for Presidents of the United States, they almost all read "... was/is a politician who served as the Nth President of the United States." For formatting purposes and for the purpose of consistency, I would argue that it would make sense to change it to say that he is a politician along with being a businessman and television personality.

As for his role as a businessman, he has not relinquished his role as owner of the Trump Organization and it still operates, therefore it would stand to reason that he could reasonably be considered an active businessman. Regarding him being a television personality, although that's not something that he could still be considered as currently pursuing, he still was once a television personality, just as Ronald Reagan was once an actor, and in Trump's case, I believe it would be correct to call him a television personality while omitting any specification that he no longer does it. Lastly, in terms of him being a politician, though he himself has distanced himself from the term, technically, whether or not he denies it, by definition, since he holds political office, he is a politician. Ergo, I think it would be reasonable to put that in the first sentence as opposed to simply that he is the President and following it up with what he once was, for formatting reasons and for logic reasons.

Benmite (talk) 22:24, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

This has been discussed at great length. See [3] #17. O3000 (talk) 22:28, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
O3000 beat me to it. I disagree with some of your points including the consistency argument (such arguments produce stagnation and stifle progress, and readers really don't get confused because the first sentences of articles about U.S. presidents are different). I don't feel a change is needed there. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:36, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
I also believe there is no reason to change the current wording of the first paragraph. The first sentence is generally what people see in search results, Google's Knowledge Graph and so on, and what they see first when reading the article. His role as President is vastly more important than his career managing his inherited wealth. The presidency is not the third or fourth most important thing about him, to the extent that we would exclude it from e.g. the Wikipedia snippet that appears in the Knowledge Graph by burying it at the end of the paragraph and force readers to read about relatively mediocre business and TV careers before even mentioning what he is primarily notable for. --Tataral (talk) 10:30, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
@Tataral: I agree that the President's role is vastly more important than Trump's business career. However, turning millions into billions is not simply "managing his inherited wealth". If you or I had gotten a kick-start of a couple thousand dollars from our parents and ended up with a few million 30 years later, I don't think anybody would say we were merely good managers of our inherited wealth. — JFG talk 16:50, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Regarding the "managing his inherited wealth" Forbes have a self-made score on their profiles and Trump has a 5, which in the explaining article they say means "Inherited small or medium-size business and made it into a ten-digit fortune". As far as I am aware that is the only reliable source measuring how self made someone is. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:32, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Really, we have no idea either of his current wealth or of what part of it came from who what where when, etc. We have no idea how much of his personal life style is paid for out of personal wealth rather than by the investors in his enterprise who benefit from his public image. Let me tell you as an aside from personal knowledge that those Forbes numbers are not worth the paper they're printed on when the subject's wealth is not largely in a published form such as Microsoft shares, etc. It's mainly reality TV viewers who consider him a whiz at business. SPECIFICO talk 02:00, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
The comment about him managing his inherited wealth referred to the fact that he did inherit a fairly large fortune for the era in question, and to reports that he would be richer today if he had simply invested that fortune in index funds during the past 30 years.[4] He also built his fortune/career primarily by continuing the business started by his father and grandmother. --Tataral (talk) 19:29, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for this source, which says that Trump went from 1 billion to 4 billion since 1987 (+300%) but does not explain how he made his first billion between 1971 and 1987… all without Bitcoin! — JFG talk 01:41, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist.

I don't see fascist, racist, white nationalist, Nazi, neoliberal, far-right, extremist. Seems Trump's Wikipedia page is depicting Trump in a positive light. AHC300 (talk) 16:01, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Racism, white nationalism, and Nazism are more accurately described as ideological stances. Describing Trump as a fascist is like calling Obama a communist or FDR a dictator for earning a third term in office. Those terms do not accurately describe their actual political positions and display bias on your part. Criticism of Trump, however, does exist in this article and in others about him; to say anyone is depicting the President in a positive light is a far cry from the truth.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:30, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Yes, we have discussed this several times before. The sentence is indeed clearly misleading and an outright falsification of what RS actually say. We should consider including some terms widely used by RS, especially far-right, anti-immigrant and Islamophobic, which are probably among the most widely used terms in RS. There has also been very extensive and serious discussion in RS over whether his political views can be described as fascist (see archives of this talk page for more/sources), so we should at the very least mention that in the body somewhere, although possibly not in the lead (many RS consider it a legitimate question, but conclude that he isn't a fascist for example, so it's better to discuss the issue in a little more nuanced way below). --Tataral (talk) 18:46, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Anyone who cannot see how blatantly racist and how much of a white nationalist this joke for a president is, doesn't have their head on straight and is being selective of the information they chose to process surrounding his (bleep)show of a presidency. (Subzzee (talk) 12:34, 7 December 2017 (UTC))
Islamophobic seems reasonable. Galobtter (pingó mió) 12:45, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Given the numerous prior debates and the currently stable wording, adding new labels to the lead section would best be handled via a RfC. — JFG talk 13:05, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
I doubt it. First you'd need 6 RfC's about the wording of the proposition. SPECIFICO talk 13:27, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Anyway, this inevitably gets into irreconcilable views as to due weight in RS and it would be much more beneficial to our readers to concentrate on detailed article content and give the least consistent summary of it in the lede. SPECIFICO talk 13:30, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Yeah there are certain portions of the article that definitely need to be worked on, are missing, or need to be updated. Too much trouble to get anything changed Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:33, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Above all of your suggestions, conspiracy theorist should be added to that section- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_69#Is_Trump_a_conspiracy_theorist?.Hoponpop69 (talk) 16:01, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Adding any of those terms to describe Trume would be ridiculous. I'm not going to address all of them, but let's look at one. "Nazi" is a slang term for a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. Unless you can produce a RS that say Trump was a member of that party at some point, then "Nazi" is out. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:40, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 December 2017

In Personal Details, change "New York City" to "Richmond Hill, New York". Donald Trump was born in Jamaica Hospital in the borough of Queens. There is no such city as "New York City". There is New York which is the city designation for the borough of Manhattan. But Richmond Hill is the city designation for the portion of Queens where Trump was born. The zip code for the city of Richmond Hill is 11418. 207.237.81.84 (talk) 06:10, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Not done: Establish a consensus; this has been discussed before with consensus for New York City. Richmond Hill is a neighborhood and New York City is a city. Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:14, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
The consensus discussion is linked at #Current consensus item 2. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:28, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

@Josve05a, Galobtter, and Bastun: The arbitration remedies read Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit. I suggest that any discussion happens here. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 11:45, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, was going to create a thread here. I don't think it's useful - all the links can be archived when they become dead as they already have an archive on archive.org. What point is in adding them now when they can be added at any time? Galobtter (pingó mió) 11:51, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
See e.g Gamergate controversy where we have archived all links, in case of future linkrot. Better be prepared in advance than in my opinion. (t) Josve05a (c) 12:42, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Well all of these already have archival links on archive.org - they're just not linked, but those can be added as needed. Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:14, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
WP:Other Stuff Exists is not a good enough argument for such a different article. This page has lots of reference and even exceeded the template limit, therefor the archiving of links is not as cheap as it is on other pages. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:43, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Problem I have with this is a bit different than download time. This article has 642 refs. It is heavily edited. 112,000 additional, not-easily readable characters, that serve no current purpose, adds to the difficulty in editing the article. O3000 (talk) 14:59, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Yeah that was also what I was meaning with the additional size. Makes editing the refs and the article much harder. Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:03, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Concur that systematic archiving is not useful, complicates editing, and obscures the few citations for which an archive is necessary. — JFG talk 22:39, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
I would say it is useful in most cases. The complication to editing should no be the top priority but the reader experience. This article is watched by so many that any editor who would be put but the increased edit difficulty can be replaced by someone else. We should be thinking about what is most useful to the reader. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

I complained about the same thing at the Village Pump, here, in October. That was when somebody did the same thing to Barack Obama, "archiving" 392 perfectly good references, and increasing the size of that already too-large article by 22%. I got nowhere. The people who think this is worth doing - or who like using the toy - don't care what it does to the size or readability of the article. --MelanieN (talk) 22:57, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

In this case, I think there's a clear consensus against archiving every link, and if a person repeatedly violates that consensus after being informed of it, they should expect administrative intervention. power~enwiki (π, ν) 23:01, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Oppose per JFG, MelanieN, etc, and in this case it's a 35% increase. I don't dispute the benefit, but cost exceeds benefit. This needs an entry at #Current consensus. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:04, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
I should have added: in the Barack Obama case, the person who did the archiving reverted at my request. Apparently we don't have to put up with this at articles where we think it is a problem, but I don't think we will get any kind of consensus against it on a Wiki-wide basis. --MelanieN (talk) 23:06, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

So there's clear consensus not to archive; while we'll simultaneously never achieve consensus to not archive. OK... Size is irrelevant. Wikipedia is not paper, and right now it's only 112k. Some (many) of the links will rot over time. Being prepared in advance is no hindrance to anyone (or if it is, nobody has explained why) and will be a net benefit to the reader over time. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 08:39, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

It increases the article text a lot, making it much harder to edit - the problem of text being sandwiched between long refs increases. And there's absolutely nothing to be prepared for - the archives can always be added as needed when the links rot - when links break the archives can be added. Galobtter (pingó mió) 09:03, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
It does not increase the article text at all. It merely adds several parameters to references (which are only visible when editing). But whatevs, apparently some people think think this is a battle worth fighting... I'm not one. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I meant the article code, as I was referring to editing not reading. As dead links come I'll add archives Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:30, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Section on his books

We mention his books in the lead and series of donald trump templates etc - yet there's not even a sentence on his books in the body. Per MOS we should try to harmonize the lead and body, so I'm thinking that a few sentences on the book for a section should be added somewhere.. Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:38, 9 December 2017 (UTC) Some paragraphs from the lead of Bibliography of Trump would be useful as a base, and it could be added to a writing and media career section.. Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:42, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Also some content and comments relating to his ghostwriter collaborators may be suitable. SPECIFICO talk 15:52, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
This seems backwards to me. I think the body should mention his books and the Lead should not. He's not exactly notable for writing books, and his most famous book at least was ghost written. ~Awilley (talk) 15:55, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Yeah possibly.we can remove it. Or rather atleast talk a bit more about his business career..Either way will need to add a section on his books, though. Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:59, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I think we should remove the book mentions from the lead but add a section. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:00, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

 Implemented I created a short section on his books and removed it from the lead. The section on his books can be expanded. I'm not 100% about having the writing with the media, but I'm not sure where else to put it. Galobtter (pingó mió) 16:19, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

That location seems fine and I certainly can't think of anything better at the moment. I'm not sure there's enough there to add "Writing and.." to the title of the parent section. ~Awilley (talk) 16:31, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I guess writing is part of media, but I wouldn't think of it being there. I'll remove it for now. Galobtter (pingó mió) 16:36, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

"Golden Raspberry Award for Worst Supporting Actor for his role in Ghosts Can't Do It (1990)"

Listing this "award" among his organizational recognitions is irrelevant and stupid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.215.55.169 (talk) 18:42, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

 Done [5] - If we don't consider the role worthy of a brief mention at Donald Trump#Acting and public image, surely the "award" isn't worth including either. Nobody claims that Trump can act. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:55, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
On the same vein, I removed two awards that weren't even notable enough to have articles of their own, nor were mentioned elsewhere in the body. We have a comment ""..and yet the hollywood walk of fame star is there. Frankly I don't even see the point of the whole section. Seems to be just for dumping random fluff that if important can be (and is) in the body. Obama, Bush, Clinton etc don't have such a section. Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:56, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Removing Entirety of Awards etc section

Creating another section so my proposal is more visible; I don't see the point of that section. The collar doesn't seem that important as numerous people get it etc. All the important stuff is mentioned earlier in the body. Is the gaming hall of fame important? Nah. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:00, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

I guess the collar isn't given to everyone sort of..but if it's that important (which it doesn't seem to be) it can be mentioned in foreign policy in a saudi arabia section..Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:04, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
The honorary degrees are not really important..the section can be split off into List of honors and awards received by Donald Trump similar to List of honors and awards received by Barack Obama Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:09, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
I too had thought of splitting the section, but I realized that Trump is an awkward position. He has a big article, but I am not sure if he has enough awards for a new article. If we do spin off then I suggest we consider to reintroduce the removed awards. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 11:35, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Barack Obama's list isn't that much longer. Definitely think of reintroducing the removed awards. Considering how much coverage is there, I think I can write about how is honorary degrees were given then removed etc. Should be enough. Galobtter (pingó mió) 11:38, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

 Done It's a bit short, but it's undue here and there's enough coverage for a separate article. Galobtter (pingó mió) 11:55, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Russia stuff

I created Donald Trump#Investigations to organize the sections related to the Russia stuff etc into one section, instead of having things dumped in #Early Actions. However I can't really think of a good section title nor am I really happy with the section as it is now. Improvements definitely needed. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:22, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

So I combined the sections on russia in the campaign, since they're all related in that the campaign ties are being investigated as part of russia's interference and his disbelief of any of the Russia stuff is part of why his interactions with russia have been so scrutinized. However a lot of stuff, while related to his campaign, are occurring/being investigated during his presidency and would fit more chronologically there, e.g Comey's testimony is reported there but also in the #Investigations section. Thinking of combining into one #Russia section in the presidency section..especially with Flynn etc Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:47, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Good idea for the "Investigations" and "Russia" sections, thanks! — JFG talk 23:32, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

WaPo possibly useful overview about Trump lying

Here [6]. SPECIFICO talk 20:53, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

The author is a social scientist who has published extensively on the psychology of lying.", so they are a subject matter expert on lying, and not just some anti Trump journalist. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:56, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Didn't we have multiple lengthy discussion on this topic already? Also not sure an opinion column would be the best choice either. PackMecEng (talk) 21:41, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Actually, we had discussions that kind of felt like name-calling "liar" -- but this is an analytic look at it that may have some encyclopedic weight. As His Excellency says, this is an accredited social scientist, so this is a step in the right direction. SPECIFICO talk 23:20, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
We would have to be careful with current consensus #7 and #22. I do not dispute her credentials, but given her past publications she is not an unbiased source. PackMecEng (talk) 23:34, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

No. This is not science or analysis; it is opinion. I might almost call it, fake science. No reputable journal would look twice at a "study" like this. In the first place, she compares two totally different things - the self-reported frequency and motivation of lying in the case of her study subjects, vs. an external tally and evaluation of the truth or falsity of his statements in the case of Trump. In the second place, she defines a lie thus: “A lie occurs any time you intentionally try to mislead someone.” She then admits, "In the case of Trump’s claims, though, it is possible to ascertain only whether they were false or misleading, and not what the president’s intentions were." In other words, she has no valid measurement of Trump's lies (by her own definition), only of his false statements. We should stick with our current language: Falsehoods, yes. Lies, no. --MelanieN (talk) 23:50, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

"Preceded by" Info Box

In the info box, under preceded by president it says "Barimpack Obama". Vinhan23 (talk) 05:01, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 December 2017

Change "Preceded by Barimpack Obama" to "Preceded by Barack Obama" OkAdamOkAdam (talk) 05:33, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Done Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:36, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Huh..refill changed that? Not sure how that got changed. Surprising it didn't get caught out for an entire hour considering the amount of watchers this page has.............. Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:40, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Oh it's just me being an idiot..I ctrl+f "impeach" and thus must've accidently add "imp" to Barack. Seriously wonder how that wasn't caught earlier tho. Will check diffs before saving I guess. Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:49, 11 December 2017 (UTC) Heapings of trout Self-trout Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:55, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

AfD notice

Editors are invited to comment on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Donald J. Trump Signature Collection. — JFG talk 00:26, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_69&oldid=816065052"