Talk:Sharon Needles

Pronouns

Well, the way the article is currently written, it uses both male and female pronouns, and I feel that the article should be consistent. Seeing as female pronouns are predominantly used on the show, among drag queens in general, and in past Wiki articles of contestants, those should be used. I'll be editing this article to reflect that. Amkutzko (talk) 06:25, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I've just finished a rewrite for the article and every source I found (including Needles' offical website) refers to Needles in the feminine. Granted, this may be deemed as confusing for the casual reader here on Wikipedia, and many of these sources were quite possibly writing for an audience that they were assuming was already "in the know" regarding Drag Race being a series featuring drag queens, but unless/until sources and/or Needles herself, begin to refer to her in the masculine, I also believe the article should be written using the feminine. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 12:56, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

• • Aaron Cody is a MALE. He is a FEMALE IMPERSONATOR. If male pronouns are used for RuPaul's article, then they should be used in this article. Coady legally remains a male (e.g. passport, driver's license, etc.) and unless he undergoes a sex change operation such as Amanda Lepore, Candis Cayne, or Chaz Bono, male pronouns should only be used. --XLR8TION (talk) 02:48, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Furthermore, all articles on past RPDR contestants use male pronouns. The only exception would be if there is an article written for Sonique (season 2) who is presently transitioning into female. She has posted information on her Facebook page discussing her progress and is into her second year of a 5 year process in order to achieve her goal. Sharon Needles is a character. What would people think if we were to change Martin Lawrence's article to show only female pronouns simply because he does a majority of his characters in drag (e.g. Sheneneh, Big Momma, etc.) Not only would this be grammatically incorrect, it would be misleading.--XLR8TION (talk) 03:08, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Yes, but Sharon is female. If the article is about Sharon, it should use feminine pronouns. If it's about Aaron, pronouns should be masculine. I think it should be decided whether this article is about Aaron, the creator of Sharon Needles, or the character, Sharon, herself. Sharon doesn't need a sex change, because she's a character. Would you write an article about a transgender character on a TV show in the opposite sex pronouns of the character (because the actor is not transgender)? I think we should change the pronouns back to feminine ones. 1:24pm, 5 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkcory (talk • contribs)

The article isn't just about the character – it's also about the performer himself (early life, personal life, etc). I originally planned to rewrite the article using male pronouns, however, I ended up changing my mind to err on the side of using female pronouns after all the sources I could find were referring to Needles "in universe" as female (even the ones discussing his early life, personal life, etc). I ended up changing my mind back for several reasons, the two most important are: #1) As stated above, this article is about both the performer and his better known drag persona. #2) Using female pronouns is confusing for the average reader (who may not be a fan of Drag Race) to decipher whether the subject is a man or a woman. I can see how this issue concerning drag performers in particular is a little confusing (since drag performers have only really begun to gain "mainstream" notoriety in recent years), but there are several issues to consider: Many public figures (actors, singers, etc) change their given names to professional names (Marilyn Monroe, Judy Garland, Rita Hayworth, etc), however, it's Wikipedia's policy to keep their pages under the names that they are best known (for example: the majority of people are not going to embark on a search for "Francis Gumm" when they want to look up Judy Garland). The best example I can give in this case is the Wikipeda article about the drag performer Divine. Divine was born "Glenn Milstead", but he worked professionally as "Divine" (even later in his career when he played male roles). I don't know if it was ever a deliberate decision on his part, but there comes a time in a celebrity's career when their "stage" name, for all intents and purposes, replaces their "birth" name in the eyes of the public (as far as studios were concerned, putting the name "Glenn Milstead" on a film poster would have zero marquee value, while the name "Divine" would be instantly recognizable to his public, thereby making money for the studio). If Sharon Needles begins to decide to make professional appearances in film, television, etc, and makes a deliberate attempt to be credited professionally as Aaron Cody, then we can consider moving his page to reflect his given name. Until such time, I believe "Sharon Needles" should be considered the "professional" name that he is best known by, not just a "character", but also as a public figure. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 17:31, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

• • • I recently initiated a discussion on the pronouns used in Carmen Carrera's article. They were changed to feminine after she announced on an ABC News news program that she was now a transgender woman. As a result, even the category female impersonator was remove. RuPaul's article uses male pronouns because he has always identified himself as a male. Unless a public declaration is made with regards to gender identity (gender dysphoria) or gender reassignment surgery (such as Chaz Bono, Candis Cayne, and Amanda Lepore) than male pronouns will be used in this article. Aaron Coady's birth certificate, driver's license, and passport all identify him as male and to change gender on those documents he would have to file a legal motion with the courts. By the way here is an article on singer Tom Gable who announced she is a transgender female and will begin gender reassignment surger. [1]. Notice how the author uses female pronouns only after Gable made his public announcement.--XLR8TION (talk) 13:23, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Sharon Needles refers to herself as she/her, see her website: http://sharonneedles.com/#about This article calls her "her" throughout: http://www.out.com/entertainment/2012/08/15/sharon-needles-drag-superstar-aaron-coady Per MOS:IDENTITY, Sharon Needles should be referred to using the gendered nouns and pronouns (e.g., "she", "her") that "reflect [her] latest expressed gender self-identification." This applies in references to any phase of her life. Sharon Needles is not a "he." 184.75.114.3 (talk) 08:43, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

• The website is about Sharon Needles the character. This article is about Aaron Coady, the performer who plays Sharon. He identifies as a MALE and thus the article should use MALE pronouns, as do all of the other Drag Race contestants. The article is titled "Sharon Needles" due to the fact that he is more well known by that title, like Lady Gaga or Freddie Mercury, but that doesn't magically change his gender. 94.6.55.190 (talk) 19:19, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Sharon Needles refers to herself as she/her, on her website, in interviews and in real life. (See http://www.out.com/entertainment/2012/08/15/sharon-needles-drag-superstar-aaron-coady which refers to her as she/her) The Sharon Needles wikipedia article is about Sharon Needles. Per MOS:IDENTITY, stop changing her pronouns to male pronouns.50.74.152.2 (talk) 14:50, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Aaron Cody appears to identify as a man. He makes it pretty clear in the Out interview that he is gay male, referring to himself as "gay" multiple times and even as a "f**got." He also makes it clear that Sharon is merely his performance persona and, in fact, she has a completely different personality than his real one (she is stupid; he is smart. She is sweet; he is an asshole). And this Wikipedia article is about Aaron Cody. . .it just uses the title "Sharon Needles" because that is the name Aaron is most famous under. But title notwithstanding, this article is about Aaron the real person, not Sharon the drag persona. MOS:IDENTITY makes clear that in cases of individuals where their gender is in dispute, we go with the person's latest gender self-identification "even when source usage would indicate otherwise." So it doesn't matter if most articles refer to Aaron as "she" because his latest gender self-identification is still that he is a gay man. Almost every article about a gay male drag queen on Wikipedia already uses male pronouns. See RuPaul, Divine, and Bianca Del Rio. There is simply no reason according to either Wikipedia guidelines or Wikipedia precedent to use female pronouns in this article. Rebecca Weaver (talk) 07:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

This article is titled Sharon Needles. It is about Sharon Needles. Sharon Needles is female. If this article were titled Aaron Coady, sure, have male pronouns. But it isn't. It is about the character Sharon Needles.

Name

I also changed her name to (bolded) Sharon Needles (the title of the article) in addition to (bolded) Aaron Coady. I could list any number of professional entertainment figures who do not go by their legal name but a stage name, and Wikipedia calls them by their stage name. This goes doubly for drag queens (The Lady Bunny, Hedda Lettuce, Coco Peru, et al.) Amkutzko (talk) 06:34, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Again, I agree. It's become standard practice for drag performers to refer to themselves, and each other, by their public persona/drag names. While the he/she debate (referred to above) may reach a different consensus, I'd definitely object if someone attempted to move the page itself to Needles' given birth name (a name which, arguably, very few would recognize). --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 12:56, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Ambiguity

There's a Sharon Needles who is also part of the old group Butt Trumpet (see article Betty Blowtorch) and Betty Blowtorch is not mentioned here causing the casual reading to be less able to differentiate between this Sharon and the one who is in Butt Trumpet (or are they the same person and if so, please add this notable mention as part of the article or accept a "stub"/needs attention tag). Johnhgagon (talk) 18:55, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Singles

Just to notify whoever created/edited the pages for "This Club is a Haunted House" and "Call Me on the Ouija Board," they aren't notable enough to have separate articles. Keep them as redirects to the album PG-13, which is already a stub (the information for the songs could easily be merged onto that page). Neither song has charted (which is what justified pages for songs for RuPaul or Willam Belli) nor do they have reviews or the references to make anything but a stub. In the case of Ouija Board, it isn't even technically a "single" because it didn't have a separate release from PG-13; it is only a music video. Burnberrytree (talk) 03:50, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. No support for such a move  Philg88 ^♦talk 05:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

---

Sharon Needles → Aaron Coady – He is a man, not only as opposed to a woman in general, but as opposed to a (genuine) trans woman. It is important not to confuse trans women with drag queens. A trans woman (e.g. Christine Jorgensen) is a woman. Was Christine Jorgensen a woman throughout her life?? Yes, only in the wrong body before it was changed with surgery. She always had her female brain structure. A trans woman should be referred to with the same terms a woman in general is referred to with (e.g. woman, she, her, girl, daughter, sister, aunt, niece, wife, lesbian partner, stepmother, adopted mother.) A drag queen is not a real woman. Is Aaron Coady a woman?? No. He is not a woman, and not even a trans woman. He is a man, and must be referred to with male terms. Georgia guy (talk) 19:01, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. This stage name is the common name, just like any other stage or pen name. Leaving pronouns in running text aside, there is no reason to move the article away from the common name, and no risk of confusion for anyone reading the article. We wouldn't move Marilyn Manson to Brian Hugh Warner or George Eliot to Mary Ann Evans, and need not move this. Dekimasuよ! 20:20, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose The stage names is the common term by wich the public identifies this individual. Found5dollar (talk) 00:33, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. The naming guidelines for articles about people do not mention anywhere that they can be vetoed if the subject is judged to be "not a real woman" - not that this peson claims to be a woman. The guidelines for articles about people do mention preferring common names above legal names, and this article is undoubtedly at the subject's common name. While it is off topic here, I cannot help but observe that the WP:MOS:IDENTITY guideline, containing a separate parallel naming convention for military veterans who leaked classified information and the claimed to be transsexual, is bad, wrong and harmful. By creating a separate, privileged, "protected" class of article subjects, it creates the impression that it is desirable to read people out of the protected class based on one or several editors' personal judgement, and in so doing to "punish" the article subject for having been read out. The avove nomination is not in itself a BLP violation, but it is perilously close - and follows naturally from the class-based naming conventions that apply differently to protected versus unprotected people. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 02:46, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Per WP:COMMONNAME, which Dekimasu alluded to above. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 02:55, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Per WP:COMMONNAME and the reason for the proposed move is simply an opinion about how to gender classify people. --I am One of Many (talk) 05:47, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

  You mean, plenty of people are entitled to the opinion that drag queens are real women?? Georgia guy (talk) 13:18, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose You're not getting anywhere with this move request, let me say… Seems you're right, this person self-identified as male. His stage name still was Sharon Needles, and he was still known by it. —innotata 20:28, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. When stage names are better known than real names that's what we use. I'm not really sure where the nominator's argument is coming from? Is it that they think this is insulting to transsexuals? I really don't see how. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:16, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

  He is not a woman, not even a transgender woman. Unlike Christine Jorgensen, who is a trans woman, this person is a drag queen, and unlike trans women, drag queens are not real women; they're men who dress as women for entertainment purposes. This requested move is not analogous to a move of Christine Jorgensen to "George Jorgensen". What am I getting wrong?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

  For the purposes of this line of argument, it seems like it would help to discard the assumption that someone popularly known as "Sharon" must be a woman. Dekimasuよ! 20:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose: Per Dekimasu and Marilyn Manson. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:46, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

TAXIDERMY

please create a page for "Taxidermy". Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.67.81.41 (talk) 12:45, 22 February 2016 (UTC)