Jump to content

Talk:Israel/Archive 66

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Talk:Israel

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) at 00:05, 22 February 2018 (Archiving 2 discussion(s) from Talk:Israel) (bot). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archive 60←Archive 64Archive 65Archive 66Archive 67Archive 68→Archive 70

Extreme bias in lede

Although its necessary and relevant to highlight the Jewish history of the Israel, snubbing non-Jewish history as though it didn't exist is a biased POV. Starting the history with "The Kingdoms of Israel and Judah emerged during the Iron Age" is implying that the region's history started with these kingdoms. "Jewish presence in the Land of Israel has persisted over the centuries" this a vague statement that is also misleading. "Presence" can mean or be interpreted as anything from a family to a majority of the population. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:58, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

It has already been discussed. No, it implies that the history of Israel as a political entity and a nation state began with these Kingdoms. By mentioning them at first we also omit about 200 years of Jewish existence prior to their emergence. But this is a concise paragraph and should mention the most relevant events for Israel (yet it includes completely unrelated non-Jewish history, so i can't see any "snubbing" here). That's not a vague statement, the history section details Jewish demographics of the region. Infantom (talk) 19:36, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I didn't notice; issues still remain. The bare minimum is to include history before the Jewish kingdoms in the lede, and to clarify "Jewish presence". The current situation is unacceptable, it represents solely the Zionist POV. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:56, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I suggest change to "small Jewish presence" and adding information about Canaan before the Kingdoms. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:43, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Makeandtoss, please make that change. You are right. There is still no consensus for Infantom’s mass addition of ancient Jewish history to the lede - the discussion from a few weeks ago petered out without conclusion. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:44, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
There's a lengthy discussion above with an agreement of at least 6 editors while Onceinawhile is the only one to object, for a paragraph that exists for more than 3 months. I suggest you reach a sufficient consensus first. Infantom (talk) 22:08, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
@Infantom: No one mentioned "Jewish presence" in the discussion. So stop fooling around and help me reach a consensus here. Do you agree to adding "small Jewish presence"? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:13, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
How exactly am i "fooling around"? I have already stated my opinion. No need to mention "Jewish presence" explicitly, the current wording, as a whole, gained consensus. By the 7th century there were hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the region, i wouldn't call it "small presence". A more appropriate description would be "to various extents". (and linking to Demographic history of Palestine (region) ).Infantom (talk) 16:05, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
@Infantom: You're fooling around by saying that we can't modify anything because the wording as a whole gained consensus. Yeah there were hundreds of thousands of Jews living, they were greatly outnumbered by non-Jewish communities. If any 100-700CE < 700-1900CE, and here's where we should clarify oversimplifications such as "Jewish presence". Makeandtoss (talk) 16:13, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
The purpose of sentence is to point out the fact that Jewish presence persisted although the massive depopulation by imperial conquests, and not to imply that non Jews did not reside in the region. It doesn't matter if Jews were outnumbered, it's still not a "small presence". I suggested to add "to various extents" (or something alike) into the sentence and linking it to the demographic history article. That should clarify any ambiguity regarding the sentence. Anything additional would be unnecessary. Infantom (talk) 12:07, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
@Onceinawhile: Any suggestions? Makeandtoss (talk) 07:54, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
@Infantom:
  • "To various extents" means nothing really. I prefer "to a certain extent".
  • Canaan and Phoenicia are completely snubbed from both the lede and the article. History section magically starts with Jewish kingdoms.
  • Modify this sentence into: "The 1948 Arab–Israeli War saw Israel's independence, while the remaining West Bank and Gaza territories were held by Jordan and Egypt consecutively. Israel has since fought several wars with neighboring Arab states, and since 1967 it has occupied the West Bank, Golan Heights and the Gaza Strip (still considered occupied after 2005 disengagement)" Makeandtoss (talk) 18:06, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Fine. whatever...
  • Phoenicia is irrelevant. Canaanites are mentioned in the 'Antiquity' section, if you have something relevant to add, feel free to propose. I see no importance to the lede though.
  • What's wrong with the current sentence? pretty much the same. Infantom (talk) 11:42, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
@Infantom:
  • I don't have a thorough insight on Israel-Palestinian history, so its better that someone else suggests an adequate addition to what was before the Jewish kingdoms.
  • Because this sentence "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz Israel, to be known as the State of Israel." implies that Israel was established on all of Mandatory Palestine.
  • "and later British Palestine" should be "and later Mandatory Palestine under British facilitation". Role of Britain in establishing Israel should not be overlooked.
  • "Jewish presence in the Land of Israel" after Jewish diaspora the land no longer was called with that name. Should be either "in Palestine"
or a more neutral term like "in the Land". Makeandtoss (talk) 15:25, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Note that the sentence "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz Israel..." is a quote from the Israeli declaration of independence, and not a statement of the article. Britain's role is exaggerated and became more and more anti-Zionist over the years. I see no reason to include Balfour's declaration and not the White Papers (especially the one of 1939). I agree, "Jewish presence in the region" would be more neutral. Infantom (talk) 14:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Even in the Antiquity section, non-Jewish history is marginalized. I hope someone with sufficient knowledge can expand and improve it.
  • The role of the Balfour declaration should not be undermined, it was the first instance of recognition of Zionist aspirations.
  • Its better if we avoid the quote and replace it with neutral explanatory wording. For example:" the Jewish Agency declared the independence of the State of Israel, and the following 1948 Arab–Israeli War saw Israel's establishment on most of the Mandate territory, while the West Bank and Gaza territories were held by neighboring Arab states. Israel has since fought several wars with Arab countries, and it has since 1967 occupied.." Makeandtoss (talk) 15:12, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
    This article is about the state of Israel. Not the land on which the state of Israel stands. As such, the history relevant to the state of Israel should be presented - and relevance here is different.16:06, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Thats a pretty contradictory statement. A state is built on a land. The history of the state is as relevant as the history of the land. Arabs make up 20% of Israel's inhabitants, do you really still think Israel's history is purely Jewish? All countries in the world talk about their history, whether it was Arab, Roman, Greek or others. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:35, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • "...it was the first instance of recognition of Zionist aspirations...": true, but still not lead worthy.
  • Both of your proposal and the current sentence in the article are fine, i don't mind. though with a small wording change: "...and the following 1948 Arab–Israeli War resulted in Israeli sovereignty over most of the former Mandate territory". Infantom (talk) 11:18, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
Well I avoided the sovereignty part to improve flow since basically its the same thing because its obvious that Israel exercises sovereignty over its original territories. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:19, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Capital (sorted by resources size)

Here is the source (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_478). The source is open. THE END. The capital is wrong. --İncelemeelemani (talk) 20:07, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Are you aware that you have put yourself in a hurdle? We should not lose our humanity. We have to say this clearly.--İncelemeelemani (talk) 20:08, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
English Wikipedia, You're not the president of the President of the United States. For years, you taught us the neutrality of Wikipedia. You're not English or American. You are an encyclopedia in English. --İncelemeelemani (talk) 20:14, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
English Wikipedia, if you want to be president of the United States, I can not say anything to you. But if you say that I'm giving objective information, why did you ban the change?--İncelemeelemani (talk) 20:16, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
Several countries already recognized all of Jerusalem as Israeli capital. Israel controls it, and it has become vast majority Jewish through settlements, so it's Israel's capital yes, and in all likelihood will remain so forever.--Pailsdell (talk) 20:20, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 December 2017

Since "Roman Republic" is not a person, there should be a "that" instead of "who" in the introduction. Also there's a missing point at the end of sentence (".") To avoid confusion, I write the entire paragraph with the two minor changes I'm asking:

The Kingdoms of Israel and Judah emerged during the Iron Age.[1][2] The Neo-Assyrian Empire destroyed Israel around 720 BCE.[3] Judah was later conquered by the Babylonian, Persian and Hellenistic empires and had existed as Jewish autonomous provinces.[4][5] The successful Maccabean Revolt led to an independent Jewish kingdom in 110 BCE,[6] which came to an end in 63 BCE when the Hasmonean kingdom became a client state of the Roman Republic that subsequently installed the Herodian dynasty in 37 BCE, and in 6 CE created the Roman province of Judea.[7] Judea lasted as a Roman province until the failed Jewish revolts resulted in widespread destruction, expulsion of Jewish population[6] and the renaming of the region from Iudaea to Syria Palaestina.[8] Jewish presence in the region has persisted to a certain extent over the centuries. In the 7th century Palestine was taken from the Byzantine Empire by the Arabs and remained in Muslim control until the First Crusade of 1099, followed by the Ayyubid conquest of 1187. The Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt extended its control over the Levant in the 13th century until its defeat by the Ottoman Empire in 1517. During the 19th century, national awakening among Jews led to the establishment of the Zionist movement in the diaspora followed by waves of immigration to Ottoman and later British Palestine.

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Finkelstein was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference Pitcher was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference Broshi 2001 174 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ Cite error: The named reference BabylonianChronicles was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ Jon L. Berquist (2007). Approaching Yehud: New Approaches to the Study of the Persian Period. Society of Biblical Lit. pp. 195–. ISBN 978-1-58983-145-2.
  6. ^ a b Peter Fibiger Bang; Walter Scheidel (31 January 2013). The Oxford Handbook of the State in the Ancient Near East and Mediterranean. OUP USA. pp. 184–. ISBN 978-0-19-518831-8.
  7. ^ Abraham Malamat (1976). A History of the Jewish People. Harvard University Press. pp. 223–239. ISBN 978-0-674-39731-6.
  8. ^ Erwin Fahlbusch; Geoffrey William Bromiley (2005). The Encyclopedia of Christianity. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing. pp. 15–. ISBN 978-0-8028-2416-5.

Besides that, in order to avoid confusion we could add the adjective "...the subsequent 1948 Arab–Israeli War saw Israel's establishment over most of the former British Mandate territory" in the third paragraph of lead. Thanks--181.105.98.158 (talk) 04:30, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

 Done Icewhiz made the requested changes. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 06:09, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Israel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:06, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Israel/Archive_66&oldid=826961984"