Talk:Giulio Meotti
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Para on accusation of plagiarism
As the edit history shows, the passage removed by IPs and Danishalom was restored as invalidly cancelled by 5 editors
This is a clear consensus for retaining it. If one disagrees, make an argument here to alter this consensus.Nishidani (talk) 19:40, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- There is a BLP and NPOV issue here. Meotti's response should be included, and we should avoid stating this in wiki's voice. The Tablet source cited for instace, has ynet saying apparant conduct (of an outside contributor). Also, relying on a single source (Tablet's Marc Tracy in two closely published pieces) is a bit weak. Note that plagiarism is a serious ethical and possibly legal (civil/criminal) matter - you are in BLPCRIME's vicinity.Icewhiz (talk) 19:56, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- So you didn't read my edit. Meotti's response is included, and three sources, not one, were used to document the charges. Consult the page. As to the rest, that is sheer nonsense, for it would technically mean that no controversy or accusations against a living person could be written into the encyclopedia, which is contrafactual. Meotti did not challenge the evidence given, and according to one journalist, apologized (though I can't see that in his words). Not much of an issue was made of it because Meotti's talking and writing circles are a closed world, not really taken notice of in the mainstream press. Nishidani (talk) 20:09, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- I read the edit from last night (and now the new one which at least adds a response) - as you posted here prior to the new edit. Max Blumenthal on opednews quoting Tracy does not add anything source wise. iMediaEthics (is this a RS?) also attributes this to Tracy (with the exception of Meotti's response). Further note that the source used has been published on The Scroll which is a WP:NEWSBLOG. Tracy was a staff writer at the time (though it seems that at the present he covers college sports) - so this is usable - BUT with great care as we can not assume this has gone through Tablet's usual fact checking. In short - all you have here is a single NEWSBLOG source from a writer who primarily does sports - this is not enough for BLP content such as this.Icewhiz (talk) 20:20, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Even worse. You haven't read Blumenthal's article, which has several examples found by that author of Meotti's plagiarism. I don't known why you question iMediaEthics as RS (it has to be since a BLP article allows an accused author to be quoted from any site where he choses to reply) when most of the outlets Meotti is also quoted from are dubious RS. He's published by crank outlets, one source here is also a hedge fund page, etc. Marc Tracy covers sports for the New York Times, and Jewish culture for the Tablet and New Republic etc. Meotti somehow got a Phd on George Steiner, one of the most sophisticated literary minds alive today, and then went to write for the fringe trash outlets like the Gatestone Institute and Arutz Sheva, a much lower mainstream profile than Tracy's. The plagiarism charge is multiply sourced. Don't be silly.Nishidani (talk) 20:29, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- I am fairly certain opEdNews is not a RS. I did not check iMediaEthics - however it attributes its reporting back to Tracy on a MEWSBLOG - so I don't have to. Find some other RS covering this independently (not repeating Tracy, attributed to him).Icewhiz (talk) 20:41, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- The sources I have introduced are superior to the sources used to document Meotti's page, which almost invariably come from his own writings in third-rate news outlets. You accept the latter, with a wide interpretation of RS, and try to hold to hostage any independent third party views hostile to Meotti. You are ignoring my replies, so I will ignore your repetitiveness. 5 editors examined the material and found nothing wrong with it content or source-wise. You are not the final arbiter here. You are ignoring, also, my replies, so I will ignore your repetitiveness if you keep it up.Nishidani (talk) 20:51, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- WP:BLPSOURCES -
contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion.
Icewhiz (talk) 21:02, 5 March 2018 (UTC)- There is nothing 'contentious' here. Meotti according to sources admitted or did not challenge the evidence produced against him. To the contrary, he virtually admitted the truth of the evidence by saying (lamely) he sometimes loses track of his sources. Five editors of experience see nothing of this in the edit. On your own whimsical reading, you jumped at that to overthrow an established consensus. It is only your contention that the Tablet, Max Blumenthal, Tracy and the other sources are poorly sourced. Neither Tracy, the Tablet, Max Blumenthal or the other are 'poor sources'. If you believe that, and think it entitles you to unilaterally overthrow a consensus and back IP removalists, you'd better go to the appropriate board and argue your case. Here you are in a minority of one against editors with longer experience of this place than you. Nishidani (talk) 21:08, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- It is not Tracy and the Tablet - it is Tracy writing in the Tablet's NEWSBLOG - the Scroll. Blumenthal is writing opeds in non-RS and is attributing back to Tracy.Icewhiz (talk) 21:20, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- If you believe this nonsense, get confirmation from other sources. As soon as I made edits to this page on Meotti, IPs reverted it, IPs attacked my page with smears as if I condoned genocidal behaviour in the Middle East, and some of the 'noise' came just down the road from me in, yeah, Rome. where the subject of the article lives. You are effectively editing to ensure that a journalist whose every other article attacks Jews for not being 'Jewish' enough,(he's so profoundly ignorant that he believes contrafactually that all Jews are by definition welded to Zioniost ideology) who weeps buckets of tears for the imminent destruction of Western civilisation by Arabs, who accuses the Pope of selling out Europe to Islam, wno says Europe ignores the Jewish victims of Arab terrorism when it does nothing but regularly reportevery incident against Jews while keeping mum about the daily toll on Palestinians, etc.etc.etc., should not have his hype page marred by criticism. That is to defy NPOV. Meotti's lucky to have a wiki page because he is all but ignored by the mainstream profession of journalism. I'm not challenging that right, but he can't use wikipedia to promote a glowingly onesided portrait of his epochal struggles to save Europe from itself by coopting them in some reverse jihad to stay silent at the ethnocide of Palestinians which horrifies the conscience of some of the finest Jewish minds alive, people he, a Catholic, deplores because of their fidelity to a very ancient tradition of justice.Nishidani (talk) 22:39, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- I got involved after you posted to RS/n. Note, I opened a thread at BLP/n. Meotti is a BLP, and to include a plagiarism section you need to meet BLPSOURCES, and show this is not UNDUE (which from what I see per scope of initial report lack of any continuing mentions of this by anyone, is lacking as well). Also note some of the editors you note above were reverting IPs yesterday (yes Wikipedia:IPs are human too, but...).Icewhiz (talk) 22:50, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- If you believe this nonsense, get confirmation from other sources. As soon as I made edits to this page on Meotti, IPs reverted it, IPs attacked my page with smears as if I condoned genocidal behaviour in the Middle East, and some of the 'noise' came just down the road from me in, yeah, Rome. where the subject of the article lives. You are effectively editing to ensure that a journalist whose every other article attacks Jews for not being 'Jewish' enough,(he's so profoundly ignorant that he believes contrafactually that all Jews are by definition welded to Zioniost ideology) who weeps buckets of tears for the imminent destruction of Western civilisation by Arabs, who accuses the Pope of selling out Europe to Islam, wno says Europe ignores the Jewish victims of Arab terrorism when it does nothing but regularly reportevery incident against Jews while keeping mum about the daily toll on Palestinians, etc.etc.etc., should not have his hype page marred by criticism. That is to defy NPOV. Meotti's lucky to have a wiki page because he is all but ignored by the mainstream profession of journalism. I'm not challenging that right, but he can't use wikipedia to promote a glowingly onesided portrait of his epochal struggles to save Europe from itself by coopting them in some reverse jihad to stay silent at the ethnocide of Palestinians which horrifies the conscience of some of the finest Jewish minds alive, people he, a Catholic, deplores because of their fidelity to a very ancient tradition of justice.Nishidani (talk) 22:39, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- It is not Tracy and the Tablet - it is Tracy writing in the Tablet's NEWSBLOG - the Scroll. Blumenthal is writing opeds in non-RS and is attributing back to Tracy.Icewhiz (talk) 21:20, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- There is nothing 'contentious' here. Meotti according to sources admitted or did not challenge the evidence produced against him. To the contrary, he virtually admitted the truth of the evidence by saying (lamely) he sometimes loses track of his sources. Five editors of experience see nothing of this in the edit. On your own whimsical reading, you jumped at that to overthrow an established consensus. It is only your contention that the Tablet, Max Blumenthal, Tracy and the other sources are poorly sourced. Neither Tracy, the Tablet, Max Blumenthal or the other are 'poor sources'. If you believe that, and think it entitles you to unilaterally overthrow a consensus and back IP removalists, you'd better go to the appropriate board and argue your case. Here you are in a minority of one against editors with longer experience of this place than you. Nishidani (talk) 21:08, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- WP:BLPSOURCES -
- The sources I have introduced are superior to the sources used to document Meotti's page, which almost invariably come from his own writings in third-rate news outlets. You accept the latter, with a wide interpretation of RS, and try to hold to hostage any independent third party views hostile to Meotti. You are ignoring my replies, so I will ignore your repetitiveness. 5 editors examined the material and found nothing wrong with it content or source-wise. You are not the final arbiter here. You are ignoring, also, my replies, so I will ignore your repetitiveness if you keep it up.Nishidani (talk) 20:51, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- I am fairly certain opEdNews is not a RS. I did not check iMediaEthics - however it attributes its reporting back to Tracy on a MEWSBLOG - so I don't have to. Find some other RS covering this independently (not repeating Tracy, attributed to him).Icewhiz (talk) 20:41, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Even worse. You haven't read Blumenthal's article, which has several examples found by that author of Meotti's plagiarism. I don't known why you question iMediaEthics as RS (it has to be since a BLP article allows an accused author to be quoted from any site where he choses to reply) when most of the outlets Meotti is also quoted from are dubious RS. He's published by crank outlets, one source here is also a hedge fund page, etc. Marc Tracy covers sports for the New York Times, and Jewish culture for the Tablet and New Republic etc. Meotti somehow got a Phd on George Steiner, one of the most sophisticated literary minds alive today, and then went to write for the fringe trash outlets like the Gatestone Institute and Arutz Sheva, a much lower mainstream profile than Tracy's. The plagiarism charge is multiply sourced. Don't be silly.Nishidani (talk) 20:29, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- I read the edit from last night (and now the new one which at least adds a response) - as you posted here prior to the new edit. Max Blumenthal on opednews quoting Tracy does not add anything source wise. iMediaEthics (is this a RS?) also attributes this to Tracy (with the exception of Meotti's response). Further note that the source used has been published on The Scroll which is a WP:NEWSBLOG. Tracy was a staff writer at the time (though it seems that at the present he covers college sports) - so this is usable - BUT with great care as we can not assume this has gone through Tablet's usual fact checking. In short - all you have here is a single NEWSBLOG source from a writer who primarily does sports - this is not enough for BLP content such as this.Icewhiz (talk) 20:20, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- So you didn't read my edit. Meotti's response is included, and three sources, not one, were used to document the charges. Consult the page. As to the rest, that is sheer nonsense, for it would technically mean that no controversy or accusations against a living person could be written into the encyclopedia, which is contrafactual. Meotti did not challenge the evidence given, and according to one journalist, apologized (though I can't see that in his words). Not much of an issue was made of it because Meotti's talking and writing circles are a closed world, not really taken notice of in the mainstream press. Nishidani (talk) 20:09, 5 March 2018 (UTC)