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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Evensteven (talk | contribs) at 17:50, 9 March 2018 (→Requested move 8 March 2018). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Kosovo

The sources do not connect events in Kosovo with anti-Orthodoxy sentiments. The destruction of churches might happen for a variety of reasons, for example identification of them with an oppressing governmental force or a particular ethnic group. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:43, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, particularly if it might be that buildings other than churches are included as well. Having said that, if only churches are being destroyed, that might maybe be included in some article if that article is the one a separate article on the burnings, if that theoretical article were created and proposed for merger, might be merged into the one the material is actually being added to. John Carter (talk) 22:53, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would like to inform all editors of this article that in the past few days user @Ktrimi991: made several failed attempts to remove entire sections in three different articles: Persecution of Christians and Persecution of Christians in the modern era, and also Anti-Orthodoxy. All those sections were relating to one subject: crimes of Muslim Albanians, committed against Christian Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija. The same user tried to delete all those sections unilaterally, before initiating this discussion on the talk pages. I would urge all editors to take a good look at the nature of all those deletions, since they were rightfully reverted by several editors. Sorabino (talk) 00:20, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think, with respect, that this is a slight misrepresentation. On this article, all Ktrimi991 has done as far as I can see is restore the 2 January version by Joefromrandb after the insertion by one anonymous editor of some (rather un-encyclopedic) text, cut and paste from other articles. The inserted material is dubious, because it attributes sectarian violence during a civil war situation to a particular motivation "Anti-Orthodoxy" without citing a single reliable source that suggests this motivation. So, instead of ad hominem attacks on an editor, perhaps Sorabino you could give us the case why this material should be in the article?BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:29, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also, you talk about Ktrimi991's "failed attempts", but from glancing at the edit history it looks like they "failed" because you insisted on reverting and refused to discuss on the talk pages. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:32, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@John Carter: @Bobfrombrockley Apart from churches, the target included shops, offices, cultural centers and institutions. The conflict in Kosovo, before, during and after war was caused by a mixture of nationalism and disappointment from economy and corruption. The UN secretary-general's report of April 30, 2004 described the events as "ethnically motivated violence". Sorabino is not replying so I think the section does not have to stay any longer. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:45, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Ktrimi991: I am removing the section here. These tendentious attempts to misrepresent nationalist conflicts as religious ones needs to cease as they help absolutely no one on Wikipedia or in the real world either.--Calthinus (talk) 07:01, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What is anti-Orthodoxy?

This article does not cite a single source which uses the term "anti-Orthodoxy". It has been tagged as needing verification since 2015. Each of the sections relates to bad things that have happened to Orthodox Christians, but does not give a reason why they should be understood as part of something called "Anti-Orthodoxy". The section on the Ottomans, for example, explicitly notes that Orthodox and other Christians were not differentiated, so why is it in this article? The whole article seems like an example of WP:OR and WP:SYN. Unless decent citations are added, I will nominate the article for deletion.BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:55, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Bobfrombrockley: I agree. I reckon we should wait for a reasonable time, maybe one or two weeks. If nobody makes some improvements, the article can not sustain itself. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:45, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
...@Bobfrombrockley and Ktrimi991: a lot of 3000 or so Google results [[1]] seem to suggest that the word has a different definition -- meaning "sentiment that opposes established thought", not the Orthodox Christian faith. These seem much more common in books and other preferable sources actually [[2]][[3]][[4]]. Results are also including a large percentage of links about hostility to Orthodox Judaism (like this [[5]][[6]]). And the main actually reputable sources that are using this term use it in the Soviet context it seems where you have atheists of the same ethnicity and nationality persecuting Orthodox Christians for clearly non-national reasons, which is curiously entirely absent from this page. --Calthinus (talk) 07:04, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I came to exactly the same conclusion. I specifically checked Google Scholar and Google Books, and I am more convinced than ever this is a made-up neologism. Will go to AfD.BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:06, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Add your thoughts here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Anti-Orthodoxy BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:21, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A Google search shows that "anti-Orthodox" primarily hits on this subject. On the first three pages, I receive exactly 22-vs-8 in favour of anti-Orthodoxy as in anti-Orthodox Christianity. "Anti-Orthodox sentiment" as per other examples?--Zoupan 01:33, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Zoupan- feel free to add reliable sources to the page then. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:39, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually a majority of hte first set of results are about Orthodox Judaism, see here [[7]] (you need to remove Wikipedia, Wikia and Wiki from the search). On hte first set, 5 are about Judaism, 2 about Christianity and 1 about... botany. It needs to be clarified to be against Orthodox Christianity. I also note that the first one of the sources that actually referred to Christianity is this [uhhh... "academic" work which claims Anti-Orthodox conspiracies by Ukraine] which is an overwhelmingly Orthodox country itself, while the second is about views associated with Russian fascism accusing certain literature of being "anti-Orthodox" and therefore burning it (Orwellian, huh) [[8]]. Interesting results, to say the least. --Calthinus (talk) 04:14, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We actually could have Anti-Orthodox Christian sentiment. However this page, especially a lot of the recent additions by Zoupan, are not describing sentiment they are describing actions that are (allegedly) based on such sentiment -- hence Persecution of Orthodox Christians seems to describe it better (if it was about anti-Orthodox Christian sentiment, I would expect to see polls which I doubt exist). A lot of these additions are dubious. I removed the Ukraine "anti-Orthodox" conspiracy theories that were added. I also take issue with this sentence: The Albanian nationalist movement of the 1981 protests in Kosovo had an anti-Orthodox focus, but this was due to identifying Orthodoxy with the Serbs. which explicitly acknowledges that the motivation isn't really religious-- so why is it here? Actually ironically calling this anti-Orthodox ignores the fact that many Orthodox Albanians from Albania proper cheered (and still cheer) for UCK and hold similar feelings toward Serbian Orthodoxy because it is Serbian, clearly not because it is Orthodox (their own faith). Indeed Orthodox Albanians like Klodian Sotir Gjika rushed to Kosovo and took up arms to fight the Serbian army alongside their Catholic and Muslim kin. Likewise these Albanian nationalists in Kosovo have no negative feelings towards Albanian Orthodox (indeed they revere Orthodox figures like Fan Noli, even Sotirovic will admit this). The sentence about the Kosovo Catholic church being anti-Orthodox in the view of some Serbs is a lot more acceptable to me, because it attributes the viewpoint rather than stating it as fact. --Calthinus (talk) 05:51, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Polls, really? You are implying the opposite, but in my view, organized attacks and campaigns towards the Orthodox, such as in destroying church property, terrorizing clergy, etc., motivated by ethnic hatred or not, should count and be included in the article. I see destruction of churches and mosques, murders of priest and imams, be it state-organized or in civil unrest, the same way.--Zoupan 18:20, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it is different. Once upon a time in the land of America, a boy named Dylan went on a rampage against a church. Under your view, that should automatically be viewed as anti-Christian. It was anything but. The assailant himself was a Christian. It was, in fact, anti-Black. Just like anti-Serbian Orthodox actions of the Ustasha are anti-Serb, not against the Orthodox faith. --Calthinus (talk) 23:31, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What if there was rampage on over 100 Orthodox churches? What if priests were kidnapped and executed? What if civilians were executed if they did not convert? You know I am talking about wars in former Yugoslavia and the strange thing called "The Balkans", not some pissant pill popper racist psycho. You imply some sort of coincidence. Very bad example from your side. Not buying your efforts to have anti-Serb/Orthodox campaigns removed from the article. At all.--Zoupan 03:11, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If there was a rampage on over 100 Black Protestant churches, it would be 100% anti-Black, and 0% anti-Protestant, and yes, I would remove it from a page about anti-Protestantism, absolutely. I think it is an excellent example which you still aren't engaging. Serb does not equal Orthodox although it often implies it. The Ustasha happen to also have been the definition of "pill popper racist psychos"-- they had a lot of hatred towards Serbs, plus Jews and Roma. In fact, if you notice, with regard to Jews, tehre are two concepts, anti-Semitism (ethnic) and anti-Judaism (religious) -- note how our page for anti-Judaism does not include the ethnically-motivated Holocaust. -Calthinus (talk) 03:44, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Calthinus, are you really denying that there were religious aspects of the Holocaust? Such claim would be preposterous! We have special article on Religious antisemitism with entire section on the Holocaust. Somehow, you failed to mention that. Correlation between racial and religious aspects of Holocaust, and other genocides and ethnic conflicts, constitutes an entire field in social studies, with thousands of scholars working on those subjects. Holocaust did have both racial and religious aspects, that is a well established scientific fact. So, please, educate yourself! Sorabino (talk) 18:32, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorabino Um no, racial and religious aspects were by no means equal contributors in the event itself, in that the motivation for the Nazis was almost entirely "racial" (note I am not endorsing this view, actually my view is that all "races" are made up fantasy categories when humanity can't really be separated into discrete groups...), even though the history of how it arose involved religious aspects. If you actually read the section you're referring to, you'd realize it says this : Interviews with Nazis by other historians show that the Nazis thought that their views were rooted in biology, not historical prejudices.. "As for anti-Semitic attitudes and actions, he insisted that 'the racial question... [and] resentment of the Jewish race... had nothing to do with medieval anti-Semitism...' That is, it was all a matter of scientific biology and of community", and the conclusion of American Jewish scholars -- Nazism was not a Christian phenomenon. Without the long history of Christian anti-Judaism and Christian violence against Jews, Nazi ideology could not have taken hold nor could it have been carried out. This very accurately sums up the general view on what motivated the Holocaust. Religious aspects such as age-old prejudices and Luther's polemics and etc played a role in how such an ideology arose but they were not decisive motivators in the event itself as perpetrated by the National Socialist Party. However, the point is not for us to discuss the Holocaust of all things. Anyhow, this section is actually pretty well done, so I will propose an offer based on it. --Calthinus (talk) 00:01, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rename

Can I draw everyone's attention to the result of the AfD mentioned above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Anti-Orthodoxy There was a strong consensus for the article to remain, but also a strong consensus for a name change to something like Persecution of Orthodox Christians. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:10, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Orthodox sentiment and Persecution of Orthodox Christians are not synonymous though. The latter is a subset of the former.--Zoupan 17:56, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Bobfrombrockley: Feel free to make a WP:move request. Vanjagenije (talk) 18:10, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I probably will at some point if I can work out how, unless someone else does. Didn't want to preempt the discussion emerging in the section above - but if anyone else wants to, they should do ahead.BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source falsification?

I just removed the Czech Orthodox section. It had only one source, this (google translated [[9]]) and the translation... doesn't even mention the string "Orthodox". Looks like source falsification to me. I have removed it.--Calthinus (talk) 16:58, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You did good. There are a lot of issues with this article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:28, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 February 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:57, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Orthodoxy → Persecution of Orthodox Christians – The current name actually doesn't typically refer to what this page discusses, but instead refers to anti-establishment views or hostility to Orthodox Judaism (see google results [[10]] and Wiktionary [[11]]. This AfD had the vast majority of people agreeing that the current name of the article was unacceptable [[12]]. Persecution of Orthodox Christians much more accurately describes the contents of this article.--Calthinus (talk) 02:57, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

English Wikipedia recognizes two main branches (denominations) of Christian Orthodoxy (with capital O): Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy. This article deals with persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians, and therefore it should not be renamed to "Persecution of Orthodox Christians" since that would be an ambiguous title, that also applies to the persecution of Oriental Orthodox Christians. Consequently, this article could be renamed to "Persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians" or to some similar title that acknowledges the denominational difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy. Also, it should be noted that official FBI terminology on the animosity towards Eastern Orthodox Christianity is quite clear: FBI officially uses the term "Anti-Eastern Orthodox" (basic Google Search currently shows more than 800 hits for such use of term "Anti-Eastern Orthodox" (in relation to the FBI terminology). Therefore, this article could also be renamed to "Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment" or to some similar title. Sorabino (talk) 03:53, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorabino Could you please explain why "Persecution of Orthodox Christians" would be an ambiguous title, as opposed to simply an article whose topic is more broadly focused than one about a particular denomination? For example: there would be nothing wrong with an article entitled, "Persecution of Christians", it just would have a larger scope than this one, and likely would have to be a summary style article for that reason, but there's nothing wrong with that. Mathglot (talk) 06:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see it does exist, well, good then; so how is that article not ambiguous? Mathglot (talk) 06:59, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The term Persecution of Orthodox Christians is ambiguous since it may refer to different subjects, like Persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians and Persecution of Oriental Orthodox Christians. It can also refer to the persecution of any other Christian community that self-identifies as orthodox. Sorabino (talk) 19:26, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get why this is such a vexing issue but I would be fine with Persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians, personally.--Calthinus (talk) 20:17, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It is quite an important issue, since Oriental Orthodox Christians have been severely persecuted throughout history, and that is a different subject - here are some relevant articles: Persecution of Copts or Armenian Genocide. Quite soon, we might also have a distinctive denominational article on the persecution of Oriental Orthodox Christians and therefore the title of this article should include unambiguous denominational terminology. Sorabino (talk) 20:30, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You may have an argument in favor of your desired title, but stating that "The term Persecution of Orthodox Christians is ambiguous" is certainly not it. That's no more true than saying that Persecution of Christians is ambiguous. Both topic titles are perfectly unambiguous, and have different scope; that is all. If you want to support your view, I'd go more with the argument that others are making for you, namely that that's what the article appears to be about now. Although, that does beg the question of why the article is not currently named Anti-Eastern Orthodoxy. Mathglot (talk) 00:43, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Mathglot the term "Anti-Eastern Orthodoxy" is a mouthful and sounds unnatural in the English language to my ear (imagine using it in a sentence: compare "Wow man, that's some crazy Anti-Catholicism" versus "Wow man, that's some crazy Anti-Eastern Orthodox...y). To compound this somewhat OR-ish reasoning, Google gives it, with Wikipedia removed, only [3 results]. --Calthinus (talk) 00:59, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That is not true. Term "Anti-Eastern Orthodox" is quite common. Google Search shows more than 1600 hits for the term "Anti-Eastern Orthodox" and therefore this article could be renamed to Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment. Sorabino (talk) 12:27, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
EO is obviously the subject. Those are two different and separated communions. Btw, "Orthodox Christianity" in common usage is the Eastern Orthodox Church.--Zoupan 15:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Slightly changed my !vote per Sorabino and Zoupan comments above. Agree, we should keep the two denominations separate. byteflush Talk 20:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -though still am open to discussion - The name proposed by @Calthinus: Persecution of Orthodox Christians encompasses what the content of article is really about. @Sorabino:, i would not be against it having a more narrower focus in its title but would need to have the word Christian in it so its precise like Anti-Eastern Orthodox Christian sentiment. Also on the first proposal, how about something like Persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians ? One of these can be the article page title, while the other can be a redirect - whichever editors go with in the end for either option. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:44, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment" in your example would suffice. The subject includes Persecution (and that word would be bolded in intro).--Zoupan 15:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Zoupan:, it needs to have the word Christian in it. I know this is a bit generalised what i say here, but many places (i.e most of Africa, Asia etc) around the world don't know what Eastern Orthodox is (as Orthodox Christian populations are not found there) and for a sizable amount of them, various denominations of Christianity come of as being the same. Hence my comments above for the needed additional wording. In the end however i support the proposed move with the additional word of Eastern being in it.Resnjari (talk) 11:50, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Resnjari, are you implying that title Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment would be ambiguous? Basic Google Search shows that term "Anti-Eastern Orthodox" is used only in reference to Eastern Orthodoxy (see more than 1600 hits). As I stated before, the term "Anti-Eastern Orthodox" has been adopted by the FBI as official designation for negative sentiments and animosities towards Eastern Orthodoxy (see more than 800 hits on Google Search). Therefore, we could and should rename this article to Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment. Sorabino (talk) 19:48, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
SilentResident, do you really think that the title, and consequently the scope of this article, should be reduced to "persecution" only? Comparative denominational examples, here on English Wikipedia, are quite clear: Persecution of Catholics is just a redirect, correctly pointing to Anti-Catholicism, and Persecution of Protestants is also just a redirect, correctly pointing to Anti-Protestantism. So, why should we reduce only this denominational article to persecution? Sorabino (talk) 20:01, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Anti-Catholicism" is not an ambiguous term.--Calthinus (talk) 17:02, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The term Anti-Eastern Orthodox is also not ambiguous, and therefore it would be best to use that term, and preserve the basic style of the title by renaming this article to Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment. Sorabino (talk) 20:07, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This article deals with persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians - that is the subject of this article (by its very content) and since title of every article should reflect its content it is quite clear that standard denominational terminology should be followed here. Proposed title "Persecution of Orthodox Christians" would not reflect the content of this article, since persecution of Oriental Orthodox Christians is not dealt here - that is a different subject, related to Oriental Orthodoxy as a distinctive Christian denomination with its own set of articles, including articles on persecution, like Persecution of Copts or Armenian Genocide. Sorabino (talk) 22:01, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In English language, term "Orthodox Christians" is ambiguous, because it can refer to different Christian denominations and their adherents, for example: Proto-orthodox Christians or Eastern Orthodox Christians or Oriental Orthodox Christians. In general, term "Orthodox Christians" can refer to any group of Christians that self-identifies as orthodox. Sorabino (talk) 12:18, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorabino, what you haven't done in all the times you repeated this point, is explain how such ambiguity -- i.e. the grouping of Oriental Orthodoxy with Eastern Orthodoxy -- is "bad". After all, they are all Orthodox Christians in that they are not members of the branches of Western Christianity (Cath./Prot.). It also doesn't seem you think grouping Ethiopian Orthodoxy with Russian Orthodoxy is really so bad after all outside of this page, seeing as you included both in the category "Anti-Orthodoxy" (creation of Eastern Orthodoxy incl with cat "Anti-Orthodoxy": [[13]] and the same for Oriental Orthodoxy here [[14]]. Why is the grouping bad here, but not when you did it for Category pages? --Calthinus (talk) 15:43, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Calthinus It is you who should explain (since you proposed the move) why do you want to reduce the scope of this article to "persecution" only? For example Persecution of Catholics is just a redirect, correctly pointing to Anti-Catholicism, and Persecution of Protestants is also just a redirect, correctly pointing to Anti-Protestantism, so if you want to be consistent here why don't you propose reducing "Anti-Catholicism" to "Persecution of Catholics" or reducing "Anti-Protestantism" to "Persecution of Protestants"? Somehow, I think that you wont make such proposals, because it is quite obvious that such proposals would also be problematic, so you should explain to the community why do you want to reduce only the scope of this article? So far, you did not say a word about that. The content of this article covers the entire scope of negative sentiments and animosities towards Eastern Orthodox Christians and therefore it could be renamed to "Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment". That would be a proper title, correct in terms of content and unambiguous in terms of denomination. As I said above, Anti-Eastern Orthodox is commonly used - Google Search shows more than 1600 hits. Sorabino (talk) 18:48, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Sorabino:, i did say this alternative: Anti-Eastern Orthodox Christian sentiment as a pagename taking into account what you said. Didn't hear from you though.Resnjari (talk) 11:50, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The term Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment is not ambiguous, since it is used only in reference to Eastern Orthodoxy, and therefore no further clarification is needed. Since the term "Anti-Eastern Orthodox" has been officially adopted by the FBI as designation for various negative sentiments and animosities towards Eastern Orthodoxy (see more than 800 hits on Google Search), it is quite clear that it would be best to apply that terminology, and rename this article to Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment. Sorabino (talk) 19:37, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not everyone knows what Eastern Orthodox is on its own. Sure many from Europe, parts of the Americas, Africa, the Middle East and Oceania have to varying degrees awareness of what Eastern Orthodox means. For the rest of the world like most of Africa, a large chunk of Asia etc that have increasing numbers of English speakers using platforms like Wikipedia they don't know what Eastern Orthodox connotes, hence the need to have the word Christian in it. For now i am going to agree with the current proposal for the page name change as it addresses to some extent what the article is about. Some more work on the content and structure of the article could allow for a name change your suggesting in the not to distant future done via a proper page move process. I would be open to that. Best.Resnjari (talk) 12:01, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There is no need to question general knowledge and cognitive abilities of users from those regions. Any user interested in subjects on Christianity can easily inform himself about English denominational terminology.Sorabino (talk) 20:01, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I often socialize with people from that part of the world due to university, and many of my friends only after some time when introduced to someone with that background (i.e: Orthodox Christian) then become aware. That's the vantage point i had in mind when it wrote my comment. Anyway Wikipedia also has in its policy (WP:NAMINGCRITERIA) on naming recognizability saying" "The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." In the end with Calthinus' proposal the word Eastern will be added to the end result -if passed in the page move and with your proposal if done in future, it will need the word Christian in it. Best.Resnjari (talk) 20:28, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Resnjari: The scope of this article can not be reduced to "persecution" only, for the reasons I stated several times above in this discussion, and besides that, we did not so far hear a single word of explanation of why should only this article be reduced, wile articles like Anti-Catholicism or Anti-Protestantism are left with their full scope. Reducing the scope of this article to "persecution" only would be clear example of double standards, and therefore contrary to several Wikipedia policies and rules.Sorabino (talk) 21:24, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It seems that that we have consensus, in principle, to change the current title of this article, but on the other hand, it is clear that the proposed title did not receive support, on the grounds of style, scope and denominational ambiguity.Sorabino (talk) 20:01, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

WWII persecution of Serbs

I don't think Calthinus' removal of WWII persecution of Serbs from the article is the least warranted. Why is the campaign against the Serbian Orthodox out of scope? Isn't forced conversion within the concept of anti-sentiment/persecution? The Vatican–Ustashe relations are known, as are Catholic clergy's involvement in concentration camps and mass conversions of Orthodox adherents (which may have saved their heads). The NDH's open hostility and hate towards the Orthodox, as part of identification with Serbdom or not, is a fact.--Zoupan 17:55, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Zoupan Because it wasn't a campaign against Serbian Orthodox, it was a campaign against Serbs. If it was anti-Orthodox, why was the Croatian Othodox Church founded? Serbian atrocities against Croats are not considered "anti-Catholic" in the same way. It was horrific, and yes, genocidal, but it wasn't based on their religion. The Vatican has had fucked up stances but it is a Catholic institution not an "anti-Orthodox" institution so it's irrelevant unless you thihnk this page is actually "Persecution by Muslims and Catholics" rather than "Anti-Eastern Orthodox" or whatever its name will be in the end. This all gets confusing because it just so happens that some 99% or so of Orthodox in Croatia happen to be Serbs.
That being said, you make a fair enough case regarding the forced conversion and whatnot-- I'm fine with returning the part about forced conversion but only if it is made clear the context that it arose in (i.e. Orthodoxy viewed as "Serbian" and thus a fifth column). Sometimes I'm hasty. Comes with having limited time. --Calthinus (talk) 19:51, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Religious animosity goes back centuries. The Croatian Orthodox Church was only established in 1942 by the Ustashe government as a gateway to Uniatization and Croatization. The Orthodox Serbs were still persecuted and murdered. The Orthodox faith was foreign and incompatible with the Ustashe Croatian nation-state. If Chetniks or Partisans issued a "one-third-converted/killed/deported" on Croats and systematically targeted the Catholic church, clergy, and adherents, I would consider that anti-Catholic.--Zoupan 03:30, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Umm I guess I must be a self-hater then? Interesting take on my internal mental life :). Anyhow, yes, most scholars would consider the Holocaust as motivated by racialized anti-Semitism which was a pinnacle of the National Socialist ideology. It had very little to do with the tenets of Judaism as a religion and unsurprisingly it isn't mentioned on the page Anti-Judaism which covers hostility specifically against the Jewish religion -- there is even a literature clearly delineating which views are associated with which ("Jews as 'Orientals'" -- anti-Semitic, "Jews killed Christ" -- anti-Judaic, and so forth). You can read all about it if you like. This page, whatever its name is, is about hostility to the Orthodox Christian faith. Just like with Dylan Roof who attacked a Black Protestant church was anti-Black not anti-Protestant. As I have said before to Zoupan, I am actually fine with restoring the part about forced conversions, and perhaps the part about Catholic clergical involvement. But there is an issue regarding the clergy -- even on the page Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Ustaše I see nothing that explains the origins and characteristics about "anti-Orthodox Christian sentiments" among the clergy -- indeed, instead the page seems to suggest the clergy was motivated by nationalism and profit (while other elements of hte Catholic clergy firmly opposed Ustasha violence).--Calthinus (talk) 20:25, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Have to modify my statement -- to be fair, here is one thing that could definitely belong on this page -- "In a meeting with Stepinac, Pius XII reiterated the words of Pope Leo X, that the Croats were "the outpost of Christianity", which implied that Orthodox Serbs were not true Christians. Pius XII foretold to Stepinac, "[T]he hope of a better future seems to be smiling on you, a future in which the relations between Church and State in your country will be regulated in harmonious action to the advantage of both." --Calthinus (talk) 20:26, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal -- model on Religious antisemitism#The Holocaust

Sorabino has brought up this section. I think this is a much better model of what should be done. I think Zoupan has convinced me that, although there are not many sources explicitly saying this, there may have been some anti-Orthodox sentiment involved in the whole Ustasha affair -- so, just like the excellent section linked above, the section here, if there is to be one should discuss the role attributed to such sentiment by authors, if sources can be found discussing such, rather than just summarizing the event itself. In the section Religious anti-Semitism#The Holocaust it does this pretty well, discussing some alternative views like that of Davidowicz, and also making clear what the mainstream view is on the issue. Since this is a controversial issue, I think this is the best route for us to take. Also, I regret that the conversation between us three has become somewhat of a minefield, and I want to say that if I have offended anyone I am sincerely sorry -- it is hard for us all to talk about such topics while having differing opinions.--Calthinus (talk) 00:12, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You are avoiding the main issue, and still not producing any scholarly reference that would justify your actions and deletions of entire sections. Sorabino (talk) 00:18, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, I do not need to "produce scholarly references" to justify deleting sections that are based of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH after consensus agreements in discussions you opted not to participate in. You've been around long enough to know how wiki works -- you can't shift the burden of citation like that.--Calthinus (talk) 19:07, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we need "scholarly references" or other reliable sources showing the persecution was targeted at them because Orthodox (or more precisely, Eastern Orthodox I guess?) to include it here. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:21, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lede

Barely weeks ago, we had a CFP about a name change, with about a dozen participants, and a strong consensus for an article title change to "Persecution of--" while two editors argued for "Sentiments", so an admin duly changed the name to the one agreed. Wording the lede to reflect the personal views of the two dissenting editors goes against that consensus, so please can we keep the lede corresponding to the actual title. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you. The lede should be in line with the article's name and content. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:22, 7 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 March 2018

Persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians → Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment – To broaden the scope of this article to match Anti-Catholicism and Anti-Protestantism. Both Persecution of Catholics and Persecution of Protestants are redirects to their respective "Anti-" articles, in order that the articles' scope be broad enough to encompass both hostile sentiment and actual persecution. I respectfully submit that this is what should be done here, as well. Aervanath (talk) 10:47, 8 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. That would be an appropriate solution, since this is general denominational article on negative sentiments and animosities towards Eastern Orthodox Christians. Proposed title would fairly reflect the full scope of this article. Since we already have full-scope articles on Anti-Catholicism and Anti-Protestantism, it would be fair to ensure and acknowledge the same full scope of this article. Similar subjects on all denominations should be treated equally. Regarding the proposed style, it should be noted, as in various previous discussions, that the proposed term "anti-Eastern Orthodox" is also used by the FBI as official designation for negative sentiments and animosities towards Eastern Orthodox Christians (see more than 800 hits for such use of the term on Google Search). Therefore, same terminology should be applied here. Sorabino (talk) 13:06, 8 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose proposed rename; however, support rename sans "sentiment". "Sentiment" is not used in the examples and probably should not be used here. I would support to Anti-Eastern Orthodoxy Anti-Catholicism (Eastern Orthodox), Anti-Eastern-Orthodox-Catholicism or something similar.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  18:09, 8 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Paine Ellsworth, are you serious? :) Why would you use the term "Catholicism" in title of this article? :) This article is about Eastern Orthodox Christianity, not about Catholic Church (see: Catholicism is redirecting to the Catholic Church). And also, the term "sentiment" is commonly used for this type of articles. For example, article on animosity towards Hinduism is titled Anti-Hindu sentiment and there are many similar examples, just look a the list here: List of anti-cultural, anti-national, and anti-ethnic terms. The title style "Anti-(X) sentiment" is commonly used for this type of articles, so why shouldn't it be used here? Sorabino (talk) 19:24, 8 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The term "Catholicism" is used because the article, to which you link, tells us that the Eastern Orthodox Church is "officially" known as the Orthodox Catholic Church.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  01:40, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Officially, but not commonly. Though they're both pretty much the same to me, I think I read somewhere that right after the Schism both considered themselves Orthodox AND Catholic (depending on the context). Not in the modern common usage, though. The official name is probably an archaic leftover. byteflush Talk 02:05, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just a second, you are mixing two terms here. The user Paine Ellsworth has proposed the term "Catholicism" and that term is not related to the Eastern Orthodox Christianity, because there is huge terminological difference between Catholicism as designation for the Catholic Church, and Catholicity as theological and ecclesiological concept of all traditional churches, including the Eastern Orthodox Church. Therefore, term "Catholicism" can not be applied here in any form. Sorabino (talk) 02:11, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, then in order to maintain the larger scope of the article, why not rename it to just Anti-Eastern Orthodoxy? (not entirely certain if there should or should not be a hyphen between "Eastern" and "Orthodoxy" – probably not.)  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  02:20, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I actually agree that "Catholicism" can not be applied here. Also, as far as I know, the common name of the EOC doesn't mention Catholicism or Catholicity. I only mentioned the adjective Catholic, which could refer to both of those nouns; however, since the common name doesn't refer to any of these, it's a moot point. To make myself clear: I oppose to Paine Ellsworth's rename suggestion. byteflush Talk 02:26, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, such title would also solve the main problem here, in regard to the scope of this article, but since that term can also be used as common designation for theological opposition to particular doctrines of the Eastern Orthodoxy, it seems to me that for the sake of clarity it would still be best to use the proposed title: Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment. Comparative analysis of complex titles of articles on animosities towards various communities shows that term "sentiment" is being added in such cases precisely for the sake of clarity (see the list of of anti-cultural terms). Sorabino (talk) 02:59, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Sorabino:, as i said in the previous renaming discussion, unless your proposal has the word Christian in it (so it is: Anti-Eastern Orthodox Christian sentiment) i wont support it because its still vague. Just having Anti Eastern Orthodox on its own in the pagename does not tell a reader (who is not familiar with the internal divisions of Christianity) what they are looking for when searching and wanting to further their knowledge on the topic. If your willing to add the word Christian to it, i'll support it, absent that i wont. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:06, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: It's literally a week since we closed a CFP with a strong consensus for the current title, in which two editors proposed this name as an alternative and it was opposed by strong consensus, so this feels like a bit of a vexatious CFP. I just think that "persecution" is something concrete that happens in history that we can easily find sources for and create a decent encyclopedic article, whereas "sentiment" is very nebulous and hard to pin down and leaves the page open to edit wars and to original research as we try to establish motivation. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:02, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Persecution" narrows the scope, and detaches it from related articles Anti-Catholicism and Anti-Protestantism. I suggest Anti-Eastern Orthodoxy, as a mirror of those.--Zoupan 15:45, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move to "Anti-Eastern Orthodoxy" rather than "Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment", as it includes the spectrum of criticism and opposition to doctrine, to persecution of its adherents (a very interesting topic). I also suggest to have "Persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians" bolded as secondary later in an expanded lede. I don't see Resnjari's point, as the article has a lede, is categorized, and redirected. If a similar title or concept exists, a hatnote suffices. "Eastern Orthodoxy" is the common name.--Zoupan 15:45, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pagename ought to have easy to find terms reflected in its title that allow a reader to search/find the topic/page easily as well. Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment on its own does not do it. Needs the word Christian. Without that addition its an oppose on my part, especially as @Bobfrombrockley points out there was a very recent CFP about the pagename with a strong consensus over the now new title of the article.Resnjari (talk) 16:00, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ditto Support for "Anti-Eastern Orthodoxy"; would accept "Anti-Eastern Orthodox Christianity" or something that points the word "orthodoxy" to the religion specifically. This does change the scope of this article, but I support that as a parallel subject to Anti-Catholicism and Anti-Protestantism, which do not need "Christianity" in their titles to fully disambiguate the topic. "Sentiment", in my view is inappropriate; persecution is not a sentiment. "Anti", however, is capable of expressing all levels of opposition and action. Evensteven (talk) 17:45, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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