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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 152.130.15.14 (talk) at 20:05, 25 April 2018 (→Inaccurate title: comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Relevant for the update

https://twitter.com/MalcolmNance/status/988505465553383424?s=19

Former NYC police commissioner reporting it as a terrorist attack. This would be useful to put on the page, if anyone can go in and edit it. Media here in Canada are doing a real disservice by releasing zero information. As we often do, I guess we'll get it from CNN or somewhere else before our own media tells us anything. Adtrace (talk) 20:51, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Both. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:07, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
  • The Canadian media are not doing anybody a disservice by maintaining a high standard of not releasing information until they've confirmed it with police — they're actually doing us a solid by trying to be careful and accurate and not whipping up a panic. CBS went with what the police chief in New York told them, not the police in Toronto, so their information was automatically of less value than the CBC's. Bearcat (talk) 00:58, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Concur with Bearcat regarding foreign police quotes. Update tomorrow may include something from Canadian PM on Canadian media.[1]

References

  1. ^ http://anccanada.org/1141/

Location map

Can use this instead of the generic photo if you want:

Attack location is located in Toronto
Attack location
Attack location
Attack location (Toronto)
Attack location is located in Canada
Attack location
Attack location
Attack location (Canada)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by LaserLegs (talk • contribs) 21:01, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Is there a better map that doesn't show political subdivisions that haven't been used in Toronto since last century sometime? North York still exists as one of four community council within the city, but the border don't match those shown, and some of the political units shown have not existed in any form this century - and in some cases have become so forgotten, that the actual boundaries for the area have become almost mythical in local neighbourhoods that span the old borders. Here's a link to the current boundaries that have been used since the 1990s - though presumably they will change in late 2018 or early 2019 with the new wards. I've been wondering this for some other Toronto pages as well, for which the old 20th century political units aren't relevant. Nfitz (talk) 01:32, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
On a related note, if anyone knows how to add the co-ordinates, that would be great. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:13, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Reactions

What encyclopaedic information do these quotes convey beyond the final sentence of the preceding section "In the aftermath of the incident, messages of support and condolences came under the hashtag "#TorontoStrong"."? The flags are certainly not necessary and I'm struggling to think of a reason not to just remove the entire section. Thryduulf (talk) 23:21, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It contributes absolutely nothing, but this crap is on the page of just about every such incident. Bueller 007 (talk) 23:25, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree for the 150th time in six years. Shrink and summarize. Or wait till someone else does. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:42, April 23, 2018 (UTC)
I've summarised the reactions into something encyclopaedic, but I wouldn't be surprised if people readd the quotes or start a spinoff article for them. I keep getting edit conflicts while trying to resolve the four conflicts I had when summarised so I've given up as I should have bene in bed an hour ago! Thryduulf (talk) 00:20, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've also added a comment to editors noting that quotes should not be added without first discussing it on the talk page. I don't have much hope of people listening, but we can but try. Thryduulf (talk) 00:22, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thryduulf Thanks for your efforts. I believe national reactions have some value, but the wall of flags and carbon copy condolences offer nothing. --LaserLegs (talk) 00:33, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They offer nothing here, but to a spinoff reaction article, they're invaluable. I generally support places where people who genuinely care about quotes and flags can go to argue safely amongst themselves about what's most relatively meaningful. But before we can have a "Reactions to...", we need to know what we're calling the main thing. I think we can all agree the old title won't work forever. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:10, April 24, 2018 (UTC)

As a rule, the reactions should only include those people directly involved eg Prime Minister, city leader, etc with what happened otherwise what happens is that every country in the world and all major organisations can be included. BernardZ (talk)

Anyone can create a hashtag and promote it to have notable people using it. Leave the reactions to notable people and organizations. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 01:32, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think what we have at the momemnt is close to ideal - a prose summary of what the reactions were, a note that the directly relevent people have commented (city, provincial and national leaders) and that there have been international reactions. The quoted portion of the mayor's statement is the only non-proforma bit and that actually adds something to the article. This is followed by summaries of relevant physical reactions in prose form without excessive detail. If anybody major says or does something out of the ordinary, as determined by reliable secondary sources then we can consider adding that, but it should be in prose format. Thryduulf (talk) 08:24, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why a list of reaction of various politicians - particularly foreign - has any value at all, which could simply be summed up with "the obvious was stated". Only Mayor Tory's comments had any relevance - and he was the only one on the seen. I'd have though comments from Ward 23 councillor John Filion would have been more relevant generic statements. Nfitz (talk) 08:53, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Better title

Any suggestions? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:11, April 24, 2018 (UTC)

I think we need to wait for further information to see whether it was "terrorism", "attack" etc. Lots of exemplars at Category:Terrorist incidents involving vehicular attacks. WWGB (talk) 01:28, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also suggest we hold off until we have a clearer sense of what the motivation was. In addition to the unconfirmed speculation that it had something to do with the Armenian genocide, which I've already poleaxed from the article, there's also an unconfirmed (and possibly faked) Facebook post making the social media rounds which suggests more of an Elliot Rodger incel/MRA Isla Vista thing. And simple "attempted suicide-by-cop" still isn't actually off the menu yet, either. We just don't know what's true and what isn't, so it's hard to pick the right word for it yet. Bearcat (talk) 01:36, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It seems clear this was an attack, not merely an "incident". Beyond that, we don't know.Adoring nanny (talk) 01:51, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like "2018 Toronto Van Attack" (where we suddenly jumped). Too many capitals and doesn't need a year to separate it from anything else. But yeah, this was an attack (regardless of motive). InedibleHulk (talk) 02:17, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
Now it has the right number of capitals, but still a pointless year. Progress! Tried unilaterally moving it to Toronto van attack, but someone already yoinked the redirect; still like it. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:18, April 24, 2018 (UTC)

Why is it a pointless year? There's never been a van attack before in Toronto? Lots of mass shootings and attacks have the year pre-fixed.. We'll just have to change it again when there are more vehicle attacks in future. Meanwhile, there's no harm in using 2018 now. Regardless, this article should be titled either "Toronto_van_attack", or "2018_Toronto_van_attack", and the others should forward there, not vice versa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.91.136.100 (talk) 05:11, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vans don't attack people. Nfitz (talk) 05:33, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
... Are you serious? "Van" is a descriptor, not necessarily the subject. You could substitute any noun. It works the same way as "2018 van accident" or "2018 van purchase". "But vans don't purchase things!" It refers to the event, where the van was purchased by one or many people. In this case, the van was "attacked with", therefore it's a van attack. There are probably many thousands of such articles on Wikipedia. 192.171.43.36 (talk) 00:12, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There've been Toronto van attacks. Just none here at Wikipedia to distinguish this one from. Maybe there'll be one in another year, but that worry also applies to everything there's only been one of yet. The harm in calling anything after the year is that we look for a common name, and no reliable sources call these things after their year. Why make up a highly unusual name when we don't have to? InedibleHulk (talk) 06:04, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
I don't know. Years from now, nobody will be calling it "The Toronto Van attack", they'll be appending the date in common speech and in news reports/blogs. 2018 helps orient the event in time. At the very least, 2018_toronto_van_attack should be redirected to the current page (which is happening at time of writing).
That very least is good enough for me, for now. Not knocking your prediction, but lots of people imagine lots of things happening. If you're right later, I'll have no problem agreeing to move it later, when it's a thing people say. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:28, April 25, 2018 (UTC)

The correct and appropriate term for this should be recognized as "Toronto Vehicular Rampage Incident". Condolences 126.161.142.36 (talk) 10:10, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, because that is too long, complicated and has too many capital letters. Jim Michael (talk) 10:13, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Toronto attack"

It seems that this was more of a "Rampage" or "Tragedy" of Vehicular manslaughter by an Armenian-Canadian in Toronto. Perhaps "2018 Toronto Rampage" (not to be CONFUSED with Montreal Rampage)

I'm far from onboard with 2018 Toronto attack. Doesn't mention a van. I think the van played a defining role here, and am surprised no other shooting, stabbing, beating or whatever has taken that redirect. Does Toronto attack work? InedibleHulk (talk) 04:54, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
I've shrunk it to Toronto attack. Barring a portmanteau, that's about as concise as it gets, yet I still think people will know the one we mean. If nobody likes it, though, I won't miss it. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:58, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
That might be a bit TOO concise. See also Toronto Attack. It should go back I think User:InedibleHulk as that's rather unfair to the hockey team! Nfitz (talk) 05:03, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Holy shit, yeah. How did they not scoop it already? "Toronto van attack" is much better now. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:14, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
"Toronto attack" is not appropriate. ---Another Believer (Talk) 05:23, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Guys... Toronto van attack. Not "TORONTO ATTACK". 23.91.136.100 (talk) 05:05, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There may have been several so-called attacks. Calling it just "Toronto Attack" as User:InedibleHulk did is just so inappropriate. There are possibly tens of so-called Toronto attacks. What makes this incident as "THEEEE attack of all attacks" Toronto has suffered from just baffles me. Mentioning the year as in "2018 Toronto Attack" may be more acceptable though not ideal either. "Toronto attack" has just to go. werldwayd (talk) 05:00, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The way I see it, if there was a more appropriate article that could use it for a redirect, it would've been done already. The year is unnecessary no matter what we choose; I'd rather define it by what happened, rather than when. Where's always good, and three word titles are nice. "Toronto van attack" is the best choice, I think, but that was already taken for a redirect here. Had to act quick without discussion, because when I brought up "Florida school shooting" as amazingly simple, somebody stole it for a redirect. If it's bad by most everyone else, though, I agree it was a poor choice. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:12, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
Is no-one concerned by the similarity of Toronto attack to Toronto Attack, an ice hockey team? WWGB (talk) 05:22, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Kind of, for now. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:25, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
There's nothing stopping it getting moved over a redirect. An admin can do it. Until now, when people say "the Toronto Attack" they think of the hockey team (anyone who knows of them at least). If it weren't for the hockey team I'd agree with you. But because there is, there is already a notable Toronto Attack. And as such, now there needs to be a disambiguation statement. And I don't think that's right! User:Bearcat do you have any thoughts? Nfitz (talk) 05:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You already agree with me, as of my "holy shit moment" 22 minutes ago. Just to be clear. Needs a "van" in the middle now more than ever. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:36, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
Aaaaand I moved it back to Toronto van attack. No opinion on the year. Could we please agree on a final title before anyone else moves it again? ansh666 05:58, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Article should be moved back to 2018 Toronto van attack. It is most appropriate as an encyclopedia title. "Toronto attack" is generic and does not accurately represent the subject. EelamStyleZ (talk) 05:50, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, there are BILLIONAIRES of attacks (not limited to Toronto) so it may be a bit too GENERIC. You would have to be on DRUGS to call it that, I mean, even an Israeli girl once claimed her dog was attacked by her ex-boyfriend in the little electric car he bought for her but she didn`t like, A REVA, but that was a complicated attack because they were estranged. Just soo many examples, anyway, I see it`s been changed back to "Toronto Van Attack". Let`s see what they name the memorial tomorrow, could be a better choice of name.

Looking at other similar articles in the navigation template at the foot of the article, should this article be at 2018 Toronto attack? Compare 2016 Nice attack, 2017 Stockholm attack, 2016 Berlin attack, etc. Van/truck, or whatever was used, does not form part of the article name. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:16, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree - 2018 Toronto attack is better. We don't usually include the type of vehicle in the title. Jim Michael (talk) 10:15, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As has already been discussed above, the problem is that the title Toronto Attack is in preexisting use as the name of a hockey team — so just titling this "2018 Toronto attack", without specifying "van", would carry an unacceptably high prospect of getting misinterpreted as that hockey team's 2018 game season. As important as consistency is in principle, so that titles aren't just all over the place for random reasons, it's not the one naming consideration that overrides all others as the Prime Directive — if there are special considerations that problematize or interdict the title preferred by the "consistency with other comparable topics" rule, then those special considerations take precedence. Bearcat (talk) 13:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Do we have any articles about a sports team's season that is in that format? Would readers be likely search 2018 Toronto attack when looking for the details of a sports team's fixtures? Jim Michael (talk) 14:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Bearcat about using 'van' as a qualifier. 2018 Toronto van attack seems the best option. And to Jim Michael, usually for team seasons, it will usually say 'season' at the end, such as 2017–18 Toronto Maple Leafs season, but sometimes for leagues we just have 2017–18 Serie A with no 'season' qualifier. So it is possible, though admittedly unlikely, to search for this intending to find the sports team's season, however. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 15:19, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It does though seem unlikely that anyone would be looking for a former sports team's 2018 season though. And vans don't attack people. Calling it "2018 Toronto white van attack" would be more descriptive - but what is added? "2018 Toronto man attack" would be a better description - or even "2018 Toronto white man attack". But why all the extra nouns? Just "2018 Toronto attack" seems simplest given the team in question no longer exists; and I'd expect that name has just been eliminated from future consideration for other teams. Nfitz (talk) 16:14, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good point - the team ceased to exist before this year, so there cannot be information about the team's 2018 fixtures.
I'd strongly disagree with adding white in the title, because the colour of the van is irrelevant and it might make people think it was a racist attack. Jim Michael (talk) 16:56, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea User:126.161.189.183 what this has to do with that early 1900s political party or who Cenk is - though given that it's a Turkish name, and the general lack of goodwill between the Turks and Armenians after they killed over one million Armenians in the Armenian Genocide my guess is that it's not relevant, or well sourced. What is your point? Your posts seem to be trying to push some POV I'm not sure I fully comprehend. Nfitz (talk) 19:46, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
126 must mean The Young Turks and its presenter Cenk Uygur. Jim Michael (talk) 20:10, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Van" should stay in the name, because it reflects how people are referring to it. Media sources are consistently calling it a "van attack" (CBC, National Post, Globe and Mail), or occasionally "van rampage" (Toronto Star). — Kawnhr (talk) 18:16, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's not accurate though. Should we simply resort to the lurid headlines that the media resort to? We'd have to put a lot more adjectives into all our article titles! Nfitz (talk) 18:25, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disagree with Van as qualifier; the attacker is Armenian, in Armenia the largest lake (and source of the name of the capital city) in Van of the Van Rebellion; its too creepy, all that French/English Canadian usage aside. Better not fall for this guys trap, if there is one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.189.183 (talk) 19:29, 24 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]
    • The attacker is Canadian. RA0808 talkcontribs 19:37, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • True, but van is still a horrible work. I look at it, and keep thinking it's some Dutch name or something. Even Truck would be better. But why is the weapon important here? This is looking more and more, in many ways, like the Montreal Massacre which we now call the École Polytechnique massacre - both in terms of quantities of deaths, injuries, possibly misogynistic motives and gender bias in the victims. We don't call that the Montreal gun Massacre or the École Polytechnique gun massacre. Perhaps the article name should be Toronto massacre or North York (Centre) massacre. The 1989 massacre is the only precedent that's really coming to my mind, for something this large, in the nation's history. Nfitz (talk) 19:51, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • That's a little silly, to oppose "van" based on… not liking the word or associating it with the Netherlands. I don't really get what you mean by "not accurate", either: it was an attack, with a van. My understanding is that articles typically follow common names, even if it bends guidelines; so, it's worth keeping in mind that "Toronto van attack" is how this event is generally being referred to. — Kawnhr (talk) 20:04, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
          • I oppose 'van' because it wasn't the van that attacked, and therefore the title is inaccurate. Toronto man attack would be more accurate. Toronto truck attack would be clearer and more represent the vehicle. It's called Ryder Truck Rental after-all - not Ryder Van Rental. Nfitz (talk) 20:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As a teenager, I spent many sleepless nights grappling with whether fish food is by fish, for fish or of fish, so I feel your pain. English can be so cruel and ambiguous: School shootings, church bombings, terror attacks of all stripes. Why should we make schools feel safer after they shoot people? Was the church inspired by some sort of higher power in a shady domestic social network? Do people hope to fight fear when they literally attack terror? The answer to all these questions is a roll of the eyes and a shake of the head from 95% of everyone else who grasp the spirit of commonly-used phrases rather than the letters.
All major Canadian outlets are going with "Toronto van attack", while Googling "2018 Toronto attack" finds us at the top (with that title, somehow), Riyadh Daily talking about other stuff in the middle, and eight other pages about the hockey team. It's called Ryder Systems, Inc. but branded as "Ryder", and a truck that's shaped like a van is a van. The place that advertised itself as a "VHS rental" place during my awkward phase also rented NES games and sold cans of worms for fish (but didn't call them fish food). This is simply the sad truth of our language and social norms. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:14, April 24, 2018 (UTC)

Questions of dual-nationality and Hebrew/Armenian ethnicity

Not a particularly appropriate line of inquiry. ansh666 04:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Reporters were asking about the ethnicity or origins of the suspect and how that may have borne influence on the actions of the suspect. In a complex-society such as Canada all immigrants and 1st/2nd/3rd/4th generation settled immigrants have adapted their traditions and customs, with obvious implications in the Pharmaceutical and Mental-Health industries. It has been asserted that the suspect bears a name drawn from the Armenian language, but no foreign-national records nor immigration records have been cited. Speculation has been raised with regards to whether the suspect is a Dual-National. These questions are being asked, and if determined, these facts should be included in the article shouldn`t they?

  • Firstly, just because he has an Armenian name doesn't mean he was born outside of Canada — so "foreign national" or "immigration" records don't necessarily exist to be cited. Secondly, Hebrew/Armenian? What's that, exactly?Bearcat (talk) 01:39, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, even if the suspect is Canadiite by birth, if the suspect had visited the middle-east (Armenia?), for whatever reson like visiting grandfolks or cultural program or suchlike, they usually say something like "the suspect may have been radicalised while visiting the middle-east". Or recruited or whatever. Secondly, about refugees FLEEING persecution in their old countries, (or even German immigrants in Armerica during WWII changed their names to flee discrimination against Germans), it is quite common that people Anglicise names. Why would it be different for Armenia?

Either way, if the perpetrator had crossed borders, there SHOULD be a stamp in the passport, and that is important. If the perpetrator is a dual-national or has multiple passports, then you wouldnt find certain stamps in either/or. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.149.59 (talk) 01:53, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If all they are is questions, ignore them. Wait for answers. That's what people come to article space expecting to find. Wondering here on Talk is fine (presuming we don't libel anyone), but try to share your sources, just for further context. Which reporters are wondering exactly what, and so on. Sector-wide implications aren't always so obvious to those who aren't already in the know, and I (for one) don't know what you mean. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:56, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
I've removed "of Armenian heritage", since its relevance hasn't been proven and it's not included in any sources I checked anyways. This kind of xenophobic speculation is counterproductive at best. ansh666 02:05, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
126, Armenia is a Christian country, and it's not in the Middle East. So I really don't know what you think you're talking about, but there's no place for it in Wikipedia. Bearcat (talk) 02:07, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken, but if the perpetrator was of Irish or Colombian ethnicity a few decades ago, investigators would have examined any links to the IRA or FARC. Passport stamps are ryelevant.

Which, transposed to Armenia, gets you...what potential link of concern, exactly? Bearcat (talk) 02:21, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The psycho-social implications of the terrorism of the (Armenian) holocaust, or sumthing? Oh yeah, about speculation, persons of Irish or Colombian extract are not offended by mention of the FACT that investigators have pursued such lines of inquiry, moreso than such lines of inquiry themselves. Same should hold with regards to Hebrew or Armenian ethnicities. And about whether Armenia is in a Muslim-region or the Middle-East or not.... anyone can take a bus from Brussels to Turkey and Turkey to Armenia, just like many of those so-called "jihadi-wives" did. AND, there would be a stamp in the passport. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.149.59 (talk) 02:37, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But we have no mention of any such investigation. There is no FACT in any Armenian connection, just idle speculation. ansh666 02:47, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's that damn rock music and weed, I tell ya! Now that that's settled, I'm afraid we're all well into the WP:NOTFORUM zone. Policy suggests we should leave, or at least talk about improving the article somehow. And by "somehow", I mean in clear and specific proposal. Not just "you know...somehow." InedibleHulk (talk) 02:54, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, it's clearly time to be done with this obvious troll. Bearcat (talk) 03:03, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe in trolls, just people who can't hear and people who'd rather not. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:23, April 24, 2018 (UTC)

Get ready for it guys, it appears that Alek Minassian, the "suspect" who ran over & killed over 10 people and injuring many others. Arrived from Lebanon 6 months ago, devout Muslim, his facebook says from "Aleppo Syria" BernardZ (talk)

Get ready for what User:BernardZ? Do you have a reliable source for this, which conflicts with all the published accounts? Does it have any relevance? Looking for sources, the only stuff I'm seeing of a similar nature seems to be coming from white nationalist and neo-nazi sources, that I'd not consider reliable. Nfitz (talk) 08:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to guess that that was sarcasm. Anyways, let's all stop commenting in hatted sections, okay? ansh666 04:39, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Flag" usage?

Is there any benefit to displaying the flag of the "movement" he is said to have identified with? -- Zanimum (talk) 12:19, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have no particular opinion on that but I restored it after someone simultaneously removed it along with a whole lot of sourced text. 92.13.129.174 (talk) 12:37, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps if it is a flag of Canada or Armenia, or perhaps if the "he said she said" of non-Canadian newspapers gets a credible source. New York Post (dubiously) indicated a CBN source, but it`s not coming up on a google or duckduckgo search. No benefit as of yet.

Means nothing to 99% of readers so contributes nothing to the article. WWGB (talk) 13:35, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I see no benefit to including this. Natureium (talk) 13:36, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I concur, a link to the Incel article is appropriate but the flag is off-topic. These types of symbols are generally not included even if they are arguably relevant. –dlthewave ☎ 13:43, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Flag of the group, the shoddy New York Post article, and the British tabliod (Sun) article shall be taken down. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 (talk) 13:44, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No flags for anyone. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:45, April 25, 2018 (UTC)

Incel

This is the first time I am seeing this word -- took me a bit to find out it is shorthand (apparently) for "involuntary celibate." I would like to suggest that if this is an actual (in-use) term, and if it is going to be used on this page (or any page), as it is alongside the supposed symbol for this condition (actually, here it is described as a "movement" -- which I think is not accurate), then there should be a link, an explanation, and at least one verified/legitimate reference to this term. Jdevola (talk) 13:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you are discussing the use of the flag, please see above. If you intend to marry the flag and group, wait for clarified references, non-tabloid. The reference to the term is established, but not to the incident. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 (talk) 14:02, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • The Montreal Massacre has similar motives to what some are claiming here. The word they used there was simply misogynist. No need to start adopting language that seems poorly sourced. Nfitz (talk) 20:43, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are plenty of reliable sources discussing what an "incel" now that the post claiming "Incel Rebellion" has been confirmed to come from Minassian's account. The reason we don't call the Polytechnique shooter an incel is because the term did not exist at the time, if it were to happen today he would likely (in my opinion) have called himself an incel like Minassian did given what his specific misogynistic grievances were. RA0808 talkcontribs 20:55, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Confirmation from CBC that account was genuine

CBC News has official confirmation from Facebook that the "Incel Rebellion" post was genuine and was publicly posted to Minassian's account before Facebook deactivated it, as is their standard procedure. Currently in Tweet form (https://twitter.com/CBCAlerts/status/988786051924791296), will likely filter through into news stories throughout the day. RA0808 talkcontribs 14:51, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It was the FB account confirmed genuine, not the FB post, which may have passed as if it were made jokingly. This needs clarifying in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 (talk) 24 April 2018 (UTC)

This Incel Rebellion stuff sounds like a 4chan prank to me. I'm very wary of it. Harizotoh9 (talk) 17:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • On the other hand... per the Vice source the "00010" and "C23249161" in that FB post (that some sources thought were related to 4chan post numbers) correspond to military identification numbers. 00010 is the CF Military Occupational Structure Identification for infantrymen and C23249161 could be a service number. I do agree that there is a chance that it could still be a prank, but with Facebook confirming that the account is genuine (probably due to how long the account was open, etc) it does lend it a bit more credibility. RA0808 talkcontribs 17:45, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Confirmation of use of ANGLICISED given name (Christian name, Surname)

WP:DNFTT
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Shouldn`t we use his real name? It does not translate to English or French the same depending on Translator, but the Armenian is correct; "Ալեք Մինասյանն է" 126.161.175.13 (talk) 14:57, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yeah, another unreasonable denial of the suspects identity may be construed as having basis in the Toronto Human Rights Code as it protects against identifing people who may be targetted, for hate-crimes or something like holocaust-denial, but the guy was clearly arrested and identified already, so that arguement would apply equally to disclosure of whether he identified as LBGT celibate etc. etc. and it is STRONGLY recommended that the fact the guy is an Armenian-Canadian be PROMINENTLY noted in this article, lest further disservice be done by denying it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 (talk) 15:06, 24 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

  • What bearing does what country his ancestors come from have on this? RA0808 talkcontribs 15:32, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's nothing that makes people of Armenian background inherently more likely to do something like this than people of any other ethnic heritage. The fact that he's ethnically Armenian is entirely irrelevant to this, outside of the fact that it shuts down the "must have been a Muslim, because only a Muslim would ever" narrative that was in force yesterday before his identity was confirmed. Bearcat (talk) 15:38, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

so sorry if you misunderstand, what is the policy on using an individuals real name, and is it appropriate to follow policy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 (talk) 15:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So it would be correct to include a "significant alternative name", or is that only for the French Canadian wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.165.35 (talk) 16:09, 24 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

  • And then though only if it was indeed significant. Is there any indication that he uses this - or heck even indication writes or reads Armenian? It's starting to approach speculation. You could spell it out in Korean or Chinese too if that was significant, given the high Korean and Chinese populations in that neighbourhood. Nfitz (talk) 16:23, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps you misunderstand, if you "spell it out" in non-Armenian, it becomes varied, not vice-versa; the Armenian is correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.129.23 (talk) 16:44, 24 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]
    • No, it seems that you are the one who is misunderstanding. Wikipedia convention for names which may be "non-English" in origin is to use the spelling/variant of the name that is widely used in English-language sources. All English-language sources report the name as Alek Minassian, therefore that is how it will be written here on the English Wikipedia. RA0808 talkcontribs 16:55, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It will be fairly written here on wikipedia, compatible with policy affording multi-lingual proper usage of individuals names; that is also a Human Right, and must be afforded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.129.237 (talk) 17:01, 24 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

I found this precedent template: 

Alek Minassian
Ալեք Մինասյանն

I trust that helps improve the article, and complies with all policy without breaching the guys Human Rights to identify as he may, nor violate the rights of nor cause fear to other persons of Armenian extract, living or dead. Alex Minasyan
Ալեք Մինասյանն — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.162.22 (talk) 17:41, 24 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

"Thirteen injured victims were listed in the court records to not be contacted by Minassian."

I'm not seeing this statement in the article referenced. What does this even mean? He can't use the prison phone to contact those injured? -- Zanimum (talk) 16:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • I can't tell if the source was changed, but the statement is now sourced to a Toronto Star article which includes the following: "Minassian was ordered not to have contact with any of the 13 attempt murder victims and when asked if he understood, he sharply said, 'Yes.'" From the sounds of it the court is basically imposing something like a restraining order on him. RA0808 talkcontribs 17:09, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Detained persons in Canada (outside of immigration) are permitted several modes of communication generally; if there is no fear of destruction of evidence or witness tampering (they wouldn`t have charged him so quickly if they had not yet SECURED sufficient evidence); perhaps the defendants twitter and FB (or indeed other electronic means of correspondence) should not have been deactivated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.129.237 (talk) 16:51, 24 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

  • Facebook and Twitter have terms of service and definitely don't want their platforms associated with an accused mass killer. As for deleting the account, a "deleted" profile is not permanently deleted for a certain period of time... merely hidden from view. Likely the Toronto Police with subpoena the contents of Minassian's Facebook and other social media accounts as evidence in the near future. RA0808 talkcontribs 17:09, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence is stupidly worded.77Mike77 (talk) 17:13, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Strong objection to current "Motive" of the crime of massmurder

If that comes from the Toronto Police or Prosecutor that would pass without objection; otherwise... 126.161.189.183 (talk) 18:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Good grief, how did that slip in ... wasn't watching the Info box. Completely speculative. Removed. Nfitz (talk) 18:23, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what was current when you said it was, but the new current version says "Sexual frustration and rebellion against sexual society". Is that better or worse than it was before? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:40, April 25, 2018 (UTC)
Just checked the history, think it was worse before. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:43, April 25, 2018 (UTC)
This is very much seeming like the motives behind the Montreal Massacre. On that page for years we've listed anti-feminism and misogyny. I'm not sure about the former (it was well into 1990 before that situation became clear) but I see no reason we used misogyny here as well, as that seems well enough sourced. Nfitz (talk) 03:11, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We ought to wait until an official announcement before putting a motive, preferably after a full police investigation. We are dealing with an unambiguous WP:BLP here, after all - there will, barring unforeseen circumstances, be a trial and an official verdict. ansh666 04:30, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Name of Area that was attacked

The area in the Yonge and Sheppard Avenue that was attacked is called 'Mel Lastman Square.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Splashen (talk • contribs) 19:16, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The incident occurred over a 2-km stretch of Yonge Street from Finch - where I think the first casualties were reported, to 2 blocks south of Sheppard, where the van stopped - although I'm not sure there were any casualties much south of Mel Lastman Sqaure - but probably too early to tell. This is a distance of 22 city blocks (though as Yonge has developed, some street don't intersect it any more). Mel Lastman Square is only one city block (roughly between Hillcrest and Princess) about 7 blocks north of Sheppard (and 9 blocks north of the van). But 12 blocks from where it started at Finch. It's the heart of downtown North York right at North York Centre station on the subway. It also appears to have been the focus of where emergency services was congregating, and most likely where the most pedestrians would be at that time of unusually warm and sunny day - particularly on the west side of the road, as it would have been in sunshine, while the rest of the west side was in shade. There do appear to have been casualties there, but there were also casualties reported within a block or two of Finch, right at the beginning. Generally the entire area is known as North York Centre or more casually as downtown North York, with all the skyscrapers, offices, and condos. Nfitz (talk) 19:36, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The area technically is called "Willowdale", you can see it on the map from the Toronto Public Library. Zoom in on the area south of Yonge and Finch, https://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/history-genealogy/lh-toronto-neighbourhoods.jsp. "This Neighbourhood Includes: Bayview Cummer, Lansing, North York Centre

Electoral Districts: Willowdale City Neighbourhoods: Newtonbrook East, Willowdale West, Willowdale East". Most people don't call it that, it's simply North York Centre. Oaktree b (talk) 15:55, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Third name

Brazilian media outlet Globo has published a third name [1]. Do we add this to the article? Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 22:19, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"It is the deadliest vehicle-ramming attack in Canadian history and the worst mass killing in Canada in decades"

As a note, the two sources given after this passage do not support either claim. This article supports that this was the deadliest mass slaying in (nearly three) decades, but do we have a cite for the deadliest ramming attack in Canadian history? Resolute 23:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I thought we did when it first appeared. You could dig through the history. Nfitz (talk) 23:59, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We had one yesterday that said "The episode in Toronto appeared to be the deadliest use of a vehicle in Canada to deliberately mow down pedestrians." InedibleHulk (talk) 00:00, April 25, 2018 (UTC)

"Southern poverty reveal some disturbing facts"

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/04/24/i-laugh-death-normies-how-incels-are-celebrating-toronto-mass-killing

Quite disturbing.--2604:2000:1382:40D0:9CA8:8D7D:BAED:45EC (talk) 00:04, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is there something you'd like Wikipedia to do with them? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:35, April 25, 2018 (UTC)
It should be added, albeit briefly. Given that the SPLC generally doesn't cover hate movements outside of the United States, it should be introduced as "According to the American civil rights organization Southern Poverty Law Center, ..." Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 12:43, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Photo

I added, as User:Kintetsubuffalo requested, a photo from the Commons - for Mel Lastman Square. Though the positioning is terrible. Perhaps someone who is better than that than me can improve that, before someone just deletes it. Hmm, I wonder if I have any on my phone ... probably too dark. Nfitz (talk) 00:19, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That is good for now. It would be better to take a photo of Mel Lastman Square in the aftermath of the incident. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 01:41, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I can grab one of Mel Lastman Square today, the first day it's been reopened to the public. Cloudy and rainy day today...I posted photos taken during and after the attack, see the link to the Commons category I added. One was deleted as not being good enough...Oaktree b (talk) 15:57, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Factual error in lead

The lead of this article incorrectly stated that this is the worst mass killing in Canadian history since a arson attack on a hotel in 1989 that killed ten. This was clearly inaccurate, as the École Polytechnique massacre killed 15 and wounded 14, and it occurred in December 1989, more than likely after the hotel arson attack. Plus the original claim was obviously original research since neither source stated that fact definitively, just were listings of mass killings in Canada. On the other hand, I found an article from USA Today that directly states that this is the worst mass killing in Canada since École Polytechnique. Thus I amended the lead.

I also want to note the similarity in motive between Alek Minassian and Marc Lepine, both were sexually frustrated young white males who were radicalized into anti-feminism and violent misogyny over it, though obviously that can't be included in the article right now since it's OR and we are still determining the attacker's motive. Just something I found interesting. Reattacollector (talk) 13:48, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is early on the motive definitely. Minassian killed other than women. He may have been misogynistic himself. He may have gone off his meds, or developed schizophrenia. This will come out over the next few months. The media will be absolutely rabid about finding out. I am sure they are chasing down anyone and everyone that they can that will give them some sort of exclusive. Alaney2k (talk) 14:49, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think the fact that he identified as an incel and looked up to Elliot Rodger speaks for itself. Plus I read an article about him that said he actively feared women and avoided all social interaction with them, even when they were acting friendly, which might be worth including in the article once I find that source article. There definitely is a difference in method, Lepine was purposely targeting only women to "fight feminism" (he identified some of the victims as "feminists" just because they were women studying engineering) and in one case separated the female students from the male ones. This guy just plowed a Chevy van into a random crowd of people. Reattacollector (talk) 15:42, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Meh. People were saying that it could have been a joke post (and likely originated as such). Whether or not he took it seriously, nobody knows. Let's just wait for the official investigation and/or trial. ansh666 15:54, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Reattacollector: Actually, both sources([2];[3]) clearly state that the arson attack occurred on December 23, 1989, after the École Polytechnique massacre, which occurred on December 6, 1989. Regardless of whether or not the arson statement constitutes WP:OR, the USA Today source is clearly inaccurate, as the shooting occurred before the arson incident at the Rupert Hotel. Undescribed (talk) 17:57, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate title

Technically it wasn't the van which decided to kill those people, it was the driver. And, he declared he did it out of sexual frustration. So, a better title would be "Toronto incel attack" or "Toronto sexual frustration attack." By the way, Elliot Rogers gave the same reason for his killing spree, as did the perps in the 2009 Collier Township shooting and the Akihabara massacre, among others. Wikipedia probably needs a category for "Spree killings motivated by sexual frustration" or "Incel spree killings." I'm serious, because these types of spree killings are likely going to continue to happen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.130.15.14 (talk) 14:16, 25 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

This was not a spree killing. WWGB (talk) 14:28, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, "mass murder." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.130.15.14 (talk) 14:32, 25 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]
The articles are named under a policy of WP:COMMONNAME. The common name is "van attack". That is what I've seen in the various media. The act was a rampage of sorts, but I've not seen it titled that way. I've seen it described it as such. Alaney2k (talk) 14:45, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In spite of almost all of these types of mass murders (separate from Islamic terror) having sexual frustration as a common element (the Virginia Tech shooter also was a failure with women), the media appears to be unable or unwilling to clearly identify it as a common motivator in these types of incidents. I suspect there is a socio-political reason for the reluctance, but time will tell. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.130.15.14 (talk) 15:07, 25 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]
This was a random attack against a load of strangers, not targeted at females as the Montreal massacre was. The Akihabara killer was lonely and unhappy, but I don't see any evidence that he was an incel. As I've already said on this talk page, I favour a move to 2018 Toronto attack, which would be in line with other vehicle-ramming attacks, including the 2016 Nice attack and the 2016 Berlin attack. Jim Michael (talk) 15:57, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Incel rage is usually targeted against humanity in general, not women in particular, contrary to the narrative by some in the media that it's misogyny that is to blame. Because the incel is resentful of the culture and society in which he can't find any romantic success, he wants to kill both men and women who are part of it. Elliot Rogers and the Akihabara stabber specifically expressed this in their missives before going on their rampages. Anyway, as others have noted, until our sources agree that this is a common theme and give it a name, we have to use these weird titles. 152.130.15.14 (talk) 20:05, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
When and if the psychology gives a name to a particular syndrome (or whatever), then that could be covered in the description and/or infobox (but not in the name as we use the determined common name). There isn't one that I know of as of yet. Alaney2k (talk) 18:54, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The grammatical argument is bunk, as InedibleHulk and IP user have gone over in an above section. There's precedent, too, for such a description: 2006 UNC SUV attack, 2008 Jerusalem bulldozer attack, 2008 Jerusalem BMW attack, 2011 Tel Aviv truck attack, 2014 Jerusalem tractor attack, 2014 Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu ramming attack, October 2014 Jerusalem vehicular attack, November 2014 Jerusalem vehicular attack, 2017 Jerusalem truck attack, June 2017 Champs-Élysées car ramming attack, and 2017 New York City truck attack. Calling this a "van attack" is hardly unusual, and indeed is how the event is being referred to in the media and among the people. — Kawnhr (talk) 18:00, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
English is an understood language, not a purely rules-based language. Most people will understand that the vehicle in the title is the weapon, not the perpetrator. Alaney2k (talk) 18:56, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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