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Empires

Non-notable game mod. Fails WP:RS, WP:V. Doesn't seem to be written about by any reliable independent sources, at least, not in a non-trivial way. (Wow triple negative, go me!). Anyways, delete for lack of verifiability without OR. Wickethewok 17:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Appears to be a notable mod for a very notable FPS. References appear to be legit for the subject at hand. Caknuck 18:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Keep! A very interessting Half-Life 2 mod with an innovative gameplay. The mod is very close to the release of version 1. And there is of course an active and growing community! I see no reason for a deletion. -- Sensenmann 20:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete (vote changed, see below) unless there is sufficient evidence of notability, which there currently is not. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong Delete I am returning to revise my vote from "Delete" to "strong delete" after being canvassed by Nuka5 (on my talk page: see 'Empires' Wiki, Which you have opted for deletion).
      Nuka5 says that "what we do not need now is for our Player Manual to be deleted" (which breaches WP:NOT Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, item 4). Nuka5 also says "we are still developing a fan base" (which possibly breaches WP:NOT a social networking site). I have checked the article again, and it seem clear to me that the article is structured like a manual, rather than as a guide to the game's significance and history.
      As pointed out elsewhere in this AFD, there are plenty of free wikis available if the gaming community wants to use a wiki to develop their manual, but wikipedia is not the place to do it.
      I think that this is a useful opportunity for us to stress to gamers that we do mean what we say in WP:NOT: if you try to use wikipedia as a repository for your manual, the article will be deleted. Good luck with the game development, folks, but wikipdia is the wrong place for it. -BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Question Where does the article itself say anything with regard to "instructions or advice , suggestions, or[...] "how-to"s," barring those nescessary for the description of its subject? I would also like to point out, for the sake of some continuity in this discussion, nuka5's post near what is now the bottom of the page, where he retracts his statement. FalconXVI
    Comment': A huge amount of material which belongs in a manual was removed a few hours after I wrote the above: see diff of edits by Mlittle 22:49, 26 October 2006, and the artucle is now much further from being a manual. However, it still contains neither an assertion of notability not evidence of notability, and we have repeated statements here from the game's fans that the purpose of the wikiedia entry on the game is to attract more users. I believe them. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Regardless if it was created to "attract more users", that's not the point now. The article is on Wikipedia, and could use a cleanup, but all in all it breaches no policy. And what little it does breach can be easily cleaned up with the use of different cleanup tags like {{cleanup}}, {{fact}} etc. Havok (T/C/c) 08:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete; I see no evidence this is a notable mod for Half-Life. It won "mod of the week", but that isn't much in the way of notability in my opinion.--Isotope23 20:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete there aren't any reliable sources in the article, and the article is mostly game-guide material (types of units avialable, cost to build each, etc.) anyway. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Appears to be a NN game mode. 20:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Strong Delete Following the canvassing of votes off-site, the sock-puppetry, the harassment of people who have already made their decision and the comments made by people who have come from the Empires forum just to say 'Keep' here, I have also revised my decision to a strong delete. Wiki is not google, Wiki is not a game guide, wiki is not a directory, wiki is not indiscriminate information, in addition to the numerous reasons given by Brownhairedgirl. Blame yourselves Empire players, you and your conduct brought this turn-around on yourselves through your thoughtless actions. The Kinslayer 15:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Please remind yourself Kinslayer, that this is a discussion about the notability of the Empires article, not a discussion on the conduct of Empires players. Your comment "Blame yourselves Empire players, you and your conduct brought this turn-around on yourselves through your thoughtless actions." reflects poorly, I feel, on your ability to focus on the actual discussion. When you judge an article, do not judge it based on the actions of any antagonists you come acrossm judge it on the contents.MLittle 20:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)MLittle[reply]

Comment Appears to hold some sort of grudge against the game and it's fanbase as noted by his preference of deletion of article instead of improving and as can be derived from where one, The Kinslayer, irrelevantly states: "Blame yourselves Empire players, you and your conduct brought this turn-around on yourselves through your thoughtless actions."Deepowered

  • Reply - Not true at all. The more of the people who comment on this AfD, the more you make it look like it's been created for advertising, garnering more fans (social networking) and as a game guide (WP:NOT). So by thoughtless I mean 'Due to your inability to actually understand any of Wikis policies, you are digging the article an even bigger hole to climb out of.' Next. The Kinslayer 16:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - It has been featured in the german magazine PC Action (June issue), receiving their "Super Mod" award. It was featured in GameStar magazine (issue No. 07/06) and was placed on their cover disc. It has received two "Mod of the Week" awards from Planethalflife.com, once in March and the other in July. It is an entrant in the Independent Gaming Festival's 2007 Modding Competition with a good possibility of winning. Last year's winner was Dystopia, another Half-Life 2 that was nominated for deletion several times and successfully retained its right to exist. Krenzo 22:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - The above is the only contribution by Krenzo. The Kinslayer 15:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - You're incorrent. What are you basing this on? Look at this article's history and discussion page. I've contributed to this article. Krenzo 17:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Reply - Thank you for proving my point. The Kinslayer 18:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - because krenzo is a god and he says so! Also I thought that wiki was a just a knowlage base that is intended to keep growing. There is no need to remove this artical it just need to have some differet stuff put into it. supaste 21:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - The above is the only contribution by supaste. The Kinslayer 15:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Reply - You thought wrong. Please look at WP:NOT (though I doubt you will.) The Kinslayer 15:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep THIS mod has a growing community, and as it is a more complicated mod, seriously requires a database whereby new players can learn how to play. Non Notable? http://www.steampowered.com/status/game_stats.html is evidence that it receives almost a million player minutes per month, and is more widely played than The Battle grounds and Half Life 2 Capture the flag. At highest, I have seen this mod generate almost 2 million player minutes. but this is a growing mod, and to introduce new players to it, they require an accessable source of information. without this, the mod, the community, the several clans, and the hours and hours of hard work will die. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nuka5 (talk • contribs)
  • Keep Although somewhat lacking in information relating to the actual gameplay of this mod, the point of a wiki is for anyone to edit and add to the article so that the relevant information is displayed. To delete this article instead of improving it is nothing short of a failure of the wiki system. As far as notability goes, I can only add to krenzo's entry that it has also been mentioned in a few weekly steam news updates. - Deepowered
    Comment The above is the only contribution by Deepowered. The Kinslayer 15:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This looks like a great mod and I look forward to trying it out. However, the encyclopedia is not the place to develop the user guide. L0b0t 22:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I am a major player of this mod myself and this should be kept. The way it is now though should be chanced into a more fact and about the game. The current wiki layout is alright but still can be fixed. This should be kept though. My Empires name is Cyber(Gunners_Yeyz) JoseSkinner
    Comment: the above vote is the only contribution by JoseSkinner. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is definately worth keeping, the mod has a worldwide playerbase and is by far one of the best Half- Life 2 mods. It is currently entered into the Independent Gaming Festival's mod competition, hence i would regard it as a noteworthy mod. Jabbers_01
    Comment - The above is the only contribution by Jabbers_01. The Kinslayer 15:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment No, just discriminating against blatant votespamming. L0b0t 17:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I thought this wasn't a contest, but rather a discussion on the topic of validity of this article. Why then the user in question feels necessary to point out the "post counts"? Is this a new Wikipedia policy to disregard valid points from "red names" or folks with few contributions? --Chahk42 18:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - No problem with low post counts. It's meatpuppets that are against the law. The Kinslayer 18:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Name-calling, disregarding the facts and avoiding direct answers. Did I miss anything? I still have not received a reply as to why pages such as Weapons_in_Half-Life_2 and List_of_Weapons_in_Halo_2 are allowed existance over the Empires article. --Chahk42 20:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Reply Because I judge articles on their individual merits, not in comparison to another (equally dubious) article. And this article fails on more than just notibility, (Which we're still waiting on the evidence for). The Kinslayer 20:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Re:Re: Apparently this is not true, since you have changed your mind about this article's notability solely based on actions of other users and not on the article's content or any other appropriate reason. Personal squabbles have no place on Wikipedia. --Chahk42 19:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Wikipedia's verifiability page states that "If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." Conversely, if an article does reference reliable third party sources, Wikipedia may have an article on it. Even if the official website and the material that can be found through it do not meet the criteria for reliable third party sources (which, according to WP:RS, they do), the other references already mentioned here certainly do. Granted the article has its flaws, but that in and of itself is no cause for deletion. --FalconXVI
    Comment - The above is the only contribution by FalconXVI. The Kinslayer 15:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Reply - Though I fear it might be lost amidst the rapid additions to this page, I would like to point out the obvious. As anyone can see from the large attention box at the top of this page, "deletion decisions are made on the merits of the arguments, not by counting heads (or socks)." Forgive me for thinking that this applied to all, rather than simply those who regularly edit wikipedia.--FalconXVI
  • Keep Though the page could certainly use improvement, it is an important entry as it gives information about the game, and directs them to where they can get further information. Empires has a game guide already, and a wiki to support players who wish to learn more. This page does not need to be deleted, it needs to be refocused to explain what the game is, and it's roots. For this reason, and the game's recent accomplishments, deletion is the wrong policy. M Little 03:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC) MLittle[reply]
    Comment - The above is the only contribution by MLittle. The Kinslayer 15:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just fyi, there's a Wikipedia spam drive post on their forums. I won't bother linking to it, but thats the reason, of course, for the massive number of new users. Wickethewok 04:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Reply That should not be relevant; "deletion decisions are made on the merits of the arguments, not by counting heads (or socks)." --FalconXVI
  • Keep - This mod, is very worthy of its spot. Not just because of the lack of entry, if its lacking, there are hundreds of people who could just edit this Wiki entry. But the game itself isnt what keeps me coming back, its the people who play. The developers are among the greatest, the back story is solid. This mod, even if its in infancy, deserves its place among. If this article is making you pee your pants, then you have no life and require a diaper. Cause you have no right to say this mod is so-called NN, cause you have never looked upon the Empires Community. No matter how big or little we are. We'll F*****g pwn your n00b asses on this mod.

Also wicket, dont mess with a well established community, even though you never fit into anything and must post articles for deletion, we stand for whats right of our beloved Mod. [[User:DeadReckoning|DeadReckoning]

*Comment - Sock-puppeting and canvassed votes aside, this article still warrants keeping. It's ranked highly on Valves played games list, it's been featured in PC Zone and other magazines, (I'm pretty sure it was included on a PC Zone DVD too) and as long as we source this information, then the article should be wikiworthy. I don't have access to any scnas of the PC Zone article, but I can at least find the issue it was covered in (or try to find something in their online database. And FYI DeadReckoning, threatening (veiled or otherwise) another wiki user for disagreeing with you opinion really isn't going to help your case. The Kinslayer 11:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • keep - A usefull introduction and guide to a still growing mod. Planet Halflife thinks this mod is noteable, so does Halflife2.net and many other Halflife2 related websites. How can a mod that has over 3 years of development, very strong gameplay, regular bug fixes and a growing community not deserve one page on Wikipedia about itself? Incomplete, maybe, but definitly worthy of its own page. Dizzyone99 14:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment: the above vote is the only contribution by Dizzyone99. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment - You can always tell the people who have been canvassed into voting from off-wiki. They never know how to argue successfully. It's not enough to just say that. If you want to actually help save the article (due to this NOT being a vote, as stated at the top), then how about providing a few links to news sotries or awards so people can put them in the article and address the reasons it was nominated. How can a mod that has over 3 years of development, very strong gameplay, regular bug fixes and a growing community not deserve one page on Wikipedia about itself? Incomplete, maybe, but definitly worthy of its own page. - None of this, unfortunatly, is considered a valid arguement for allowing an article to continue. We need news articles, awards, official Valave rankings, on and offline sources, not people saying 'But it's popular, and a lot of time has been spent on this mod,' The Kinslayer 14:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is also worth noting that all the red-linked usernames above appear to have made no contributions to wiki other than to 'vote' in this discussion. The Kinslayer 14:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment: I've added the sources to the article that I can verify. I have scans of the sources cited. It'd be against copyright, however, to post images within the article. If you want to see the proof: [1] and [2]. According to Uncle G's guidelines for notability: "The primary criterion for notability is whether the subject of an article has been the subject of non-trivial published works by multiple separate sources that are independent of that subject, which applies to all classes of subjects." These two sources meet this requirement. This nomination for deletion was not about whether the article is a game guide. It was solely based around the "notability" of the subject. If other things about the article need correcting, then the polite way of bringing this to attention is to mention this on the discussion pages. According to Wikipedia's Deletion Policy, "Before nominating an article for AFD, please: ... first invite discussion on the talk page if you are at all unsure as to the article's worth. Just because you haven't heard of it, doesn't mean it's not notable!" As you can see, Wickethewok nor anyone else has proposed any problems this article needs to correct in the discussion page before it was nominated for deletion. As for questions about my credibility, if you checked the discussion or history of this article, I've contributed to it before and did not create a new account solely to post here. Are you basing my credibility solely on whether I've created my own user page yet? The Independent Gaming Festival had 35 total mod entries for 2007. Krenzo 16:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Good, but unfortunatly the article still fails on just about every WP:NOT policy going. The Kinslayer 16:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment Krenzo, thanks for the links. I have checked them out, but they only confirm my conclusion that this article is a "strong delete". First, they prove to my satisfaction tht the game does exist. Good, but I never doubted that.
        However, all we have is two links. One is a half-page story, and the other in German. Sorry, but that small a media footprint does not amount to notability in this field. The news-stands are stashed with mags on gaming, and there apears to be a lot of online coverage too: in that field, I would expect that a notable game would have at least dozens of articles, preferably hundreds or even thousands of readily-accessible coverage. The fact that we have had so much discussion in this AFD but only two references is, to my mind, rather overwhelming proof that whatever its intrinsic merits, 'Empires' is a long, long way from notability. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment Please bear in mind that the subject is not a retail product (it's freely downloadable user created content as opposed to a $50 professional developed and published game) and a feature (be it half a page in a foreign magazine) is a very big thing. I feel the footprint should be regarded in proper scale. Reviews and features are fairly uncommon for mods save for the few niche sites that are available. L3TUC3 05:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I know this won't be accepted, but i'd like to say that if the article is cleaned up (the article rewritten to a small description and a link to the Empires wiki added), that it should be a lot better than it is now. It's obvious that somebody wrote it without knowing much about the mod (the release date is listed as july 1, 2006, instead of march 3, 2006), and that this may even be vandalism. Just because this is my first edit also doesn't mean i'm a meatpuppet, i just want justice to be served properly. The link to the Empires wiki is http://www.empiresmod.info/

Solokiller 16:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - This is the first post (made by Krenzo) taken from the Empires forum wikipedia thread in it's entirety: Our article on Wikipedia has been nominated for deletion. I'd like it if everyone could go over to the discussion area for the article (via the tab at the top of the article), and voice their opinion on whether it should remain or deleted. It is an important issue as we get a decent amount of traffic from people who discover the article. I think it speaks for itself (especially the last sentence.) The Kinslayer 19:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - I think you're right. People want more information about Empires, and they reasonably assume Wikipedia would have some sort of information on it. Krenzo asked people to voice their opinions, not blindly support the article, not indiscriminately flame. I do not see a problem with a Wikipedia article directing interested individuals to places where they can get more information. For the reason you pointed out, that much of the interest gets funneled through here, I can't help but agree that this article is a keep.MLittle 20:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)MLittle[reply]
  • Keep It doesn't matter weather its a game or not, wikipedia is a encyclopedia the wikipedia article on encyclopedia's actually states that "An encyclopedia, encyclopaedia or (traditionally) encyclopædia, is a comprehensive written compendium that contains information on all branches of knowledge or a particular branch of knowledge." All this is, is just a record of the history and a rundown of the game and how it works. Which in turn is a part of a particular branch of knowledge. I fail to see how it doesn't belong here. Wikipedia IS an enyclopedia yes but this is a useful article FOR a particular branch of knowledge, I don't know about you but gaming is a particular branch of knowledge last time I checked, or at least a sub branch under technology. Ta16 14:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As pointed out elsewhere in this AFD, there are plenty of free wikis available if the gaming community wants to use a wiki to develop their manual, but wikipedia is not the place to do it. I think that this is a useful opportunity for us to stress to gamers that we do mean what we say in WP:NOT: if you try to use wikipedia as a repository for your manual, the article will be deleted. Good luck with the game development, folks, but wikipdia is the wrong place for it. -BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 Brownhairedgirls says it best. The Kinslayer 20:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Okay it seems there is a misunderstanding then. This isn't the manual and was never intended as (there is in fact a wiki manual out already as pointed out by Solokiller). The article we're discussing is however poorly written, poorly structured and too specific, but those aren't reasons for deletion. Hence my vote for WP:CU and WP:RFE. L3TUC3 21:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The information on these pages CLEARLY is important to many people. why do people want to destroy this, when there are so many other subjects that matter little to people. I admit here that I WAS ENTIRELY WRONG. this is not a player manual. it is introducing people to the subject of Empires, giving a brief outline (perhaps it should include a "spoilers follow" tag). I am deeply sorry to have created this confusion. Please recall me saying "this is a player manual", because i was wrong.Nuka5 21:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - This is indeed a popular mod and lots of work has gone into making it. I don't understand the sudden wave of deleting game modification articles from Wikipedia on the basis of some nonsense bureocratic principles, which have nothing to do with the subject's popularity, necessity or the amount of people looking for it in Wikipedia. JJ45 22:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per. JJ45. Well said. Havok (T/C/c) 07:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as non-notable Mod. It looks promising, but it's not there yet. The strident efforts of meatpuppets work against it, I fear. Using Wikipedia as a promotional tool is against the mission of the project. Wikipedia only deals with things that are already famous. When it wins "Mod of the Year" come back and see us. —Wrathchild (talk) 16:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Just because Empires isn't famous, doesn't means it shouldn't be listed here, otherwise our own user pages are non-notable. Solokiller 18:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment That makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. Our user pages are just that, user pages, they are not articles. Please confine your edits in this discussion to the matter at hand. Does this article meet the requirements spelled out in Wikipedia policies and guidelines? That should be the only topic of discussion here. L0b0t 18:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I am noticing that, and this is not meant to belittle anyone, despite the large numbers of people claiming that the article does not meet WP:XY, there is very little solid argument that it does not. Claims in favor of the article mention references and other evidence as support. Claims against seem to be just that. Here is a characteristic response: "This is not a notable game, it is not a notable service, it is not an encyclopedic article, and is violates WP:RS amongst others." This is an acceptable claim, but the poster does not offer evidence in proof. If the question of the articles remaining on wikipedia is to be answered "on the merits of the arguments," then I feel that, despite the number of heads mentioning a certain claim, there is no solid argument behind them. The only solid argument used supporting its deletion, as far as I can tell, is in reference to mentions of the article as a game guide- which noone is claiming that it is- and the concerns of BrownHairedGirl on the subject's notability. --FalconXVI
  • Comment Please bear in mind that the burden of proof is on those who wish to keep the article. If you want to keep it, the onus is on you to provide evidence that the article satisfies the objections raised in the AfD. L0b0t 23:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Important information for discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-notability. here, it states that wikis need not be notable. I will not debate any longer which perspective of notable is correct. Nuka5 16:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm just wondering, if you have only one contribution, your arguement is null? How is that fair? Like the above disclaimer says, this is a discussion about how we should handle this article. Not to try and discredit others. Also Keep, the article now has reliable sources, it definately isn't a players manual (if it were, we would've dumped our empires wiki XD), and non-notable? I think being on magazines is notable enough. Makiyu 08:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I would like to mention that I have gone through the article... twice... in order to put strike throughs where I have been quoted as saying "Please do not delete our game guide". This is not because i did not say it, but because i believed at the time that this was to try and delete the Empires own wiki, and not just the Wikipedia Page on empires. I also included this note to try and clear that up: nuka5 has edited to cross out this quote as he realises that it was made entirely wrongly, about the Empires own Wiki, not the Empires Wiki Page.
    Why twice? because someone... who i deeply suspect is an admin trying to win their arguement, went back and deleted the changes i had made, meaning that it looked again like i had meant the comment. Note to whoever so deleted my changes: i have saved this comment to my PC, and will reprint it if my changes get removed again without so much as a reason. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nuka5 (talk • contribs) 15:17, 28 October 2006.
    • Nuka5, whoever removed those changes did so correctly, and I have just removed your second attempt to edit other people's comments. Please do not edit other people's comments: where someone else has quoted you, that is their writing, not yours. and please remember to sign your own comments. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another Comment I am still waiting for argument, and evidence, supporting the "delete" position. After having read through WP:NOT again, I am still hard pressed to see how the article violates anything there: The article is not a definition; it is neither origional research, nor opinion, nor discussion; it is neither propoganda, nor self-promotion, nor advertisement (or, at the least, no more so than is necessarily associated with presence on wikipedia); it is not a collection of links; it is neither a personal webpage, nor file storage area, nor dating service; it is not a directory; and it is not an FAQ, guide, or instruction manual. As for the other objection, notability is an inherently subjective requirement which I expect will be evaluated based on the references already mentioned, by whoever posesses the final say in this matter. --FalconXVI 17:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Falcon, since this discussion started, the article has been edited to make it less of an instruction manual, and to fix some of its other flaws. Howver, the lengthy discussion above contains lots of evidence of how this game modification is non-notable, and that is not a inherently subjective test: the game's fans can find only two mentions of it in the specialist press, only one of which is in English, and that one is rather short. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Again, how is this mod non-notable? It has been spoken of a lot over the internet, and noted a lot as well. Solokiller 18:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Reply Actually, it seems to be in certain cases. For example, the precedents page says that google is a reasonable test for discovering how widespread an programming language is. A google search seems, in this sense, to be an acceptable measure of how much something is "spoken of over the internet." FalconXVI 04:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Reply BrownHairedGirl, how about the WP:GT? Is that not an example of "spoken a lot of over the Internet" being a valid test of notability? A Google web search on "Empires Mod" brings up many forum posts on the subject, as does Google image search and (to a lesser extent) Google groups search. --Chahk42 15:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment And AGAIN I must remind the folks who want to keep this article, that the onus is on them to prove to us that it is notable outside of the specialized world of Half-Life mods. We do not have to prove that it does not meet the criteria for inclusion in the encyclopedia, rather, you have to prove to us that it does. L0b0t 21:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply That doesn't even make any sense. You just suggested that nothing can be considered notable unless it is notable outside of the area in which it is notable. Carrying that argument to its logical conclusion suggests that nothing is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia, because nothing is notable outside of where it is notable. FalconXVI 04:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've suggested nothing. Rather, I stated that the burden of proof is on those that would see the article kept. If this mod becomes notable outside of the modding community for your particular video game, then you might have a shot at an article. Do schools not teach sentence diagraming anymore? L0b0t 04:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment "...prove to us that it is notable outside of the specialized world of Half-Life mods" you want proof from other fields. I don't know if you realize it, but Empires is a mod for Half-Life 2. By definition it exists in that world specifically, and in computer gaming in general. There are now 8 sources in the article supporting our claim, all of them being computer gaming-related magazines and sites. There is absolutely nothing in WP:NN suggesting that sources supporting notability must come from outside of the article's area of interest. Otherwise like FalconXVI said, no article would ever be included in Wikipedia since very few things are noticed outside of their area of influence. Please review the recently added footnotes. --Chahk42 04:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Pardon my newbiness to Wikipedia administration, but is it possible to simply rename the article to "Empires (Computer Game)" to signify that it is a mod? --Chahk42 15:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment If i recall properly, Counter-Strike, a half-life mod, also means the act against counter-terrorism, yet that article never gets any of this "delete and recreate into that", so why is this article about a mod of half-life 2 nominated for deletion? if it was the Counter-Strike article VALVe themselves would come over to prevent it. Solokiller 12:10, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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