Jump to content

Talk:Democratic Party (United States)/Archive 14

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Talk:Democratic Party (United States)

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) at 00:47, 9 June 2018 (Archiving 2 discussion(s) from Talk:Democratic Party (United States)) (bot). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archive 10←Archive 12Archive 13Archive 14Archive 15Archive 16→Archive 19

Herbert Croly, Progressive Democracy, Marxism, and the War on Natural Rights

Isn't the ideology of the modern Democrat Party based on the strengthening of the Progressive Democrats in the aftermath of the collapse of the Blue Dog caucus?

Isn't Progressive Democracy is the brainchild of Herbert Croly, Teddy Roosevelt's advisor, a prominent New York elitist who was fascinated by the new German welfare state based on Marxism?

And the quotes from so many of the leaders of the Progressive movement -- in their books and their own speeches -- claiming that the Founders were wrong about Natural Rights, and the Unalienable Rights are an error and need to be set aside, none of that appears in this page.

It seems the timeline of the Progressive Democrat core of the modern Democrat Party should clearly reference Herbert Croly, if not Karl Marx himself, and the ongoing war on the Bill of Rights fully documented.172.56.31.238 (talk) 03:47, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

While some of Croly's influence may live on, that's a pretty simplistic view. Not all the founding fathers believed in natural rights and the main modern opponents of them were Antonin Scalia and Robert Bork, who were conservative Republicans. And both McCain and Trump see Teddy Roosevelt as personal heroes. On the other hand, Progressive Democrats do not control the party, as the selections of Hillary Clinton and Tom Perez show. Even one time Progressive Democrat Nancy Pelosi says that she is a capitalist. TFD (talk) 04:18, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
It's just an interesting read -- from the roots in Jefferson, to the transition to an administrative, bureaucratic centralized government via the action of Blue City elite "Royal Families", to the links to organized crime in the major Blue Cities, to the relationship with the Southern KKK, to Ted Kennedy and John Tunney's secret meetings and communications with the Soviet Union, to the Delano-Roosevelt family ties to the Chinese Opium trade, to the Kennedy Clan's prohibition alcohol trade, to the Clinton administration's transfer of LORAL missile guidance technology to China (by one of the largest democrat party donors), to Chinagate, to Hillary Clinton's self-description as a "Progressive Democrat" during her campaign, to the reality that the once powerful "Blue Dog" caucus has practically evaporated in just two decades, to the the linkage between wealthy, elitist CEOs and the prominent Blue City "Yellow Journalists"...so much of the Democrat Party history is rooted in criminality and Marxist ideologies, yet this timeline is totally absent from the wiki. Croly himself wrote the book "Progressive Democracy", and was harshly critical of the Unalienable Natural Rights, yet today we see party activists proclaiming that the 1st Amendment protects their right to lie in the press and publicly attack Conservative foundational values, while championing Progressivism, which by a casual read of the documentation is a European anti-Bill of Rights ideology. It's an odd schism to see a Party using the Unalienable Rights as a defense while simultaneously having a mostly hidden platform to eradicate them. All of these activities are so well documented, it seems a shame to leave so much of it out of the party history, instead having a single ppg claiming that ultra-left, anti-America, European ideology arrived relatively late in the process. As a staunch (former) party member for decades, including donations, most of this was hidden to me, it was only under President Obama that I started reading about all of this, due to many odd statements he was making about America circa 2011. One might think a "criticisms" section is warranted, lest ye be presumed guilty (no Bill of Rights after all) of white-washing the party's history and documented goals.172.56.41.24 (talk) 17:15, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
What is important is already in the article in more prosaic and less conspiratorial tone. The party is better seen as a coalition of different groups of citizens led by politicians ranging from the great and good to the downright criminal, a mirror image of the Republicans, who by the way also were influenced by progressives. One can assemble the facts to promote all manner of conspiracy theories, but they do not belong in the article unless they have received support in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 22:24, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps, with all his raving about about Karl Marx, the IP 172.56.31.238 contributor should take note of Karl Marx' explicit and repeated written support for the Republican Party and Abraham Lincoln. 82.176.221.176 (talk) 17:06, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on Democratic Party (United States). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

checkY An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:44, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Libertarian Democrat

There is such thing as the Democratic Freedom Caucus, and I was wondering if I could add Bleeding heart libertarianism to the list of factions. I already have sources, but it keeps getting removed when I add it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TJjeremiah (talk • contribs) 18:26, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Because it is insignificant. Can you name any elected officials who are members? TFD (talk) 03:56, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 6 external links on Democratic Party (United States). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:33, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

"World's Oldest Party" Untrue?

The wiki says that the Democratic Party is the oldest party because it evolved from the Democratic-Republican Party. However, as is evident by the name, the Republican Party also evolved from this party so why would the Democratic Party be the single oldest party not alongside Republicans?

As an institution, the Republican party didn't evolve from the Democratic-Republican party (to the extent that it evolved from anyone, it evolved from the remnants of the northern Whigs, which evolved from the remnants of the Federalists.) And the Democratic party didn't really "evolve" from the Democratic-Republican party in the sense you mean - institutionally it is that party, under a different name (although obviously its policies and base changed over time.) Scholars call the early Democratic party the Democratic-Republican party because at the time it used the name "Republican", but eventually changed its name to "Democratic"; using only 'Republican' would invite confusion for obvious reasons, but using 'Democratic' would invite confusion in other ways. Hence, Democratic-Republican. --Aquillion (talk) 14:24, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 December 2017

fix seats from 46 to 47 due to election source https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/us/politics/alabama-senate-race-winner.html 71.169.153.34 (talk) 10:39, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Not done for now: Although most media have "called" the Alabama Special Senate election, the Alabama Secretary of State has not yet certified the results, so they are not completely official. In a day or two some-one will probably update this once the results are certified. WP:NODEADLINE. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 14:47, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Suggestive adjectives

There are a lot of adjectives added to try to defer from some of the facts of the Democratic Party. There is also a lot on this page that is written as if trying to deny history or rewrite it to make the Democratic Party look better than it is. Is it possible to have someone edit this page to be reflexive of the true history and remove wording bias? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.205.236.24 (talk) 23:31, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Would you mind being a bit more specific? Which statements in particular do you believe are biased? Alexander Levian (talk) 04:41, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Democratic Party (United States). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

checkY An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:25, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Question

I am wondering why the political position (left vs right) of US parties is not listed in the infobox. Is it considered contentious to list the Democratic party as "Centre to centre-left" and the Republican party as "centre-right to right-wing"? Speed74 (talk) 19:13, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes that would be contentious. You would need to come up with reliable sources to support such an addition.Kingmanatee (talk) 16:46, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 3 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page to the requested title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 08:35, 9 March 2018 (UTC)


Democratic Party (United States) → Democratic Party – The overwhelming majority of Wikipedia users who are looking for the Democratic Party are looking for the American party by that name. Source Kingmanatee (talk) 16:44, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose - the disambiguation page is to useful to lose. Page views can be distorted due to recent events, and should never be the sole justification for a move (if it was, we would automate moves based on them). --Netoholic @ 20:39, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
    • The disambiguation page could be moved to Democratic Party (disambiguation). And while page views are one objective justification, they are not the only one. The Democratic Party in the U.S. is the oldest political party in the world and the largest Democratic Party by membership anywhere in the world. It is one of the two major parties in the world's most powerful country. Looking at page views, the next most viewed Democratic Party is the one in Italy. Let's compare the two: the American one was founded in 1828. The Italian one was founded in 2007. The American one has 44 million members. The Italian one has less than half a million.Kingmanatee (talk) 21:12, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
    • It's not a disambiguation page, but a set index page. It would probably help readers find articles more easily if it was formatted like a dab page instead of being in tables, however. It might be worth considering a hatnote at the top of the page, or an intro paragraph that happened to include links to the most prominent (i.e. widely visited) articles from the larger list. Dekimasuよ! 06:41, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Too many Democratic parties in too many countries...gotta be specific. The way it is now lets you know exactly which Democratic party you're looking at w/o messing around with disambiguations. Vjmlhds (talk) 21:30, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Numerous Democratic parties in the world; moving this one to the main title would be clear systematic bias IMO. Number 57 12:08, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Support The oldest political party in the world, one of the largest parties by membership, and easily the largest and most notable party of this name. I believe this meets the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC requirements. Toa Nidhiki05 13:56, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Support per "Is there a primary topic?": "A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." There would then be a hatnote in this article to the disambiguation page. While there are many parties called the "Democratic Party" throughout the world, most of them are minor parties not well-known outside their countries. The effect of a name change would be that when readers type "Democratic Party," they are brought here. That's very helpful, since the overwhelming majority of readers are looking for this article. TFD (talk) 14:41, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
    • The Democratic Party was the ruling party in Indonesia until 2014 and its candidate (Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono) received 74 million votes in the 2009 presidential elections, the largest amount of votes received by any political candidate in history (he also received 69 million votes in 2004). No Democratic Party candidate in the US has got within 5 million of this. The current ruling party in Italy is also called the Democratic Party. Just based on these two examples alone, I don't believe the American party can be deemed the primary topic. Number 57 16:33, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
      • Indonesia’s party has its own name based on its full name - it isn’t the “Democratic Party”. Italy’s party isn’t even as old as I am. The US party is clearly the primary topic. Toa Nidhiki05 16:48, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
      • But the criterion is whether or not this article is more likely to receive more hits than all the other articles ccomtined. The U.S. Democratic Party is the only one that appears on the first paper of Google search.[1] In fact, this article is the second hit after the party's website. This article receives an average of 6,225 views every day,[2] compared with 1,818 for Democratic Party (Italy)[3] and 82 views for Democratic Party (Indonesia).[4] Note that the views of the Italian party are higher because of the current election. In the month before the U.S. 2016 presidential election, this article averaged 18,193 views per day.[5] Also, neither the Indonesian or Italian parties are historic parties, they were founded in 2001 and 2017 respectively. Also, as Toa mentions, the Indonesian Party is actually called the "Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle," not the "Democratic Party." TFD (talk) 17:15, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Leaning oppose, as there are many parties of this name of significance around the world. bd2412 T 03:53, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose both for consistency with Republican Party (United States) (and The Republicans (France) is a severe WP:PRIMARYTOPIC concern there), and due to the significant number of other (unrelated) parties of this name. power~enwiki (π, ν) 05:27, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose this as the English language version of Wikipedia is world Wiki, not an exclusively US-centric wiki.--Autospark (talk) 14:57, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per WP:BIAS. RedUser (talk) 03:45, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY. Stating it's the primary topic isn't accurate. Of course it's the first and probably only thing that comes to your mind if you're in the United States, perhaps even if you live in Canada or the UK but know the American equivalents of Conservative/Liberal and Tory/Labour, but that's the first thing that comes to your mind. Admittedly, it's what I think of too, but there's a reason why Democratic Party redirects to a disambiguation page. There's over 80 "Democratic Parties" in the world active right now. This is an example of WP:BIAS in favor Americentrism. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 04:52, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There are far too many Democratic Parties for any to be primary. If we move the American party then we should also move Conservative Party (UK), Labour Party (UK) and Liberal Party (UK) to the base names as "clearly" the most significant parties by those names. Obviously, we're not going to do that because that would be UK-centric bias and this falls into exactly the same category. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:02, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per all the users above. --Checco (talk) 21:59, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Democratic_Party_(United_States)/Archive_14&oldid=845052682"