Talk:Sealioning

Dictionary definition

This article reads too much like a dictionary definition, it might also be a neologism. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:33, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Disagree. GigglesnortHotel (talk) 16:56, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Agree - it is a neologism, and the only real definition - which everyone sources to - is that little sea lion comic strip. Is sea lioning even a thing? The few instances I have seen anyone using the term is when someone is trying to weasel out of having to back up their claims. Tsuka (talk) 22:42, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

RFC about the inclusion of Jimmy Wales's opinion of the concept of Sealioning

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

IARish as somewhat involved; no one has offered any argument for inclusion and we've spent 9 days more than we should've discussing this Galobtter (pingó mió) 04:38, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

---

Does the opinion of Jimmy Wales bear special attention in this article, or should such quotes be removed? --Jayron32 19:38, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

• Remove Jimmy Wales's specific opinion on this subject is not particularly germain to understanding the article. Per WP:UNDUE, those of an individual entirely unrelated to the subject, with no connection to it, bear no particular need for a direct quote, or to have their opinion cited. --Jayron32 19:38, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
• Remove, pretty much exactly per Jayron32. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:44, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
• Remove per the two above, if it survives AFD, I have nominated this for deletion as a WP:NEO Darkness Shines (talk) 19:48, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
• Remove - It's bizarre that an RfC is necessary to remove a line sourced only to a tweet. If some reliable sources report on that tweet, then reopen discussion, but seriously? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:15, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

• Looks like it was just one person -- the person who originally added it -- who restored it. An RfC is not necessary to deal with an edit war/WP:BRD issues. I went ahead and removed it again. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:17, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

• Remove since there is no indication a secondary source thinks the opinion is significant. Stuff based on tweets is undesirable. Johnuniq (talk) 23:56, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
• Remove In this respect, Wales is just some guy on the Internet. According to WP:TWITTER, "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves" (emphasis in original), which is not the case here. XOR'easter (talk) 01:13, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
• Remove: This is not a good use of the RfC process. I move that we close this and let WP:BRD do its job. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:17, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

  This is the D. That's kinda part of the process. --Jayron32 11:34, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, but does it have to be an RfC so quick? Can just ping people and discuss. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:32, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Who should I ping? The RFC is how we attract neutral editors who are not involved in editing. Am I supposed to now cherry pick people to ping? That seems very counter to WP:CANVAS. --Jayron32 19:02, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

• Keep How many different ways are there to ask this question until someone gets the "right" answer they wanted? Andy Dingley (talk) 12:43, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

  Sorry, as far as I know this is the only discussion which has been held on the question posed by this RFC. Can you indicate the prior discussion if there was one? I cannot find it... --Jayron32 16:38, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

• Keep: and lets have a polite discussion about why. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 16:20, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

  Created new threaded discussion section below. Please start the discussion by explaining why we should keep Jimbo's opinion in the article and not mine or yours. I don't see it, but am willing to be convinced. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:34, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

  Per Guy Macon, not one person has yet explained why a quote by Jimbo should be kept in the article. So far in this discussion, two people have asserted that it should be, with no justification, and if we count the person that was willing to edit war to keep it in, that person has also not shown up to comment at all. The people who have asked for it to be removed have all presented reasonable rationales as to why it doesn't belong. I'd like to hear the counter arguments. --Jayron32 19:01, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

  I suspect Roxy may be being clever with this. I'm not sure which interpretation is the one that assumes good faith, though. :) — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 00:02, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

• Remove Nobody has proposed any particular reason the comment should be kept. I know Jimbo is a celebrity on Wikipedia, but using that as a justification for giving his comments weight is, at best, a self-reference. I can't see that his comments have any more relevance than all the other things people have said on Twitter about this. ApLundell (talk) 17:40, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
• Remove Gor blimey, what a waste of time! No valid reason to include. Disputed content here. Pincrete (talk) 23:43, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
• Remove. Someone on the internet has an opinion? Stop the presses! NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:35, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
• Remove - I see no convincing argument supporting inclusion. One opinion from one individual is WP:UNDUE. Meatsgains (talk) 04:24, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

(Start discussion here) --Guy Macon (talk) 17:34, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The sources each have different definitions of "sealioning"

-The first source ("Beyond Mansplaining") says sealioning involves "asking unanswerable questions over and over again" - which is not reflected in the comic, nor do the other sources claim anything of the kind, nor are any examples listed. In fact, it isn't even the source itself, but merely quotes the actual source, which is this: http://simplikation.com/why-sealioning-is-bad/ I am replacing "Beyond Mansplaining" with the simplikation link, as that's the actual source.
-The second source (Rambukanna) I am going to delete as it doesn't even mention sea lioning. It doesn't even touch on the topic, so why it was included in the first place, I have no idea.
-The third source (Davis) claims sea lioning is when you insist on having your questions answered because you are polite. As it seems to misunderstand the comic, and doesn't support the Wiki article's definition, I will delete it.
-The fourth source (Sarkeesian) is close to the Wiki article's definition, except that it accurately reflects the comic by stating that sea lioning is an intrusion by an "uninvited stranger", which implies a setting other than open internet forums (indeed, the comic itself describes stalking). I am going to add this to the text of the Wiki article.
-The fifth source is simply the comic itself. Fair enough.
-The sixth source is also simply the comic itself. And it's not the Independent, as claimed, but a comment on Indy100 which is a share index launched by the Independent, but the Independent cannot be said to vouch for incidental posts on Indy100. Anyway, since it simply re-posts the comic, this source has clearly just been added to increase the bulk of references to make the article look more legit. It is a duplicate source, so I am deleting it.
-The seventh source (Maxwell) has this definition: "in an online conversation, repeatedly asking a person questions or making comments which suggest that you are interested in what they are talking about, but are actually intended to annoy them." We can see how this contrasts with Davis's definition, which focused on the polite presentation and did not even mention the repeated questions. Maxwell, on the other hand, focuses on the repeated questions and does not even mention the politeness. Moreover, it points to a criteria which is impossible to validate: "Though in principle, particularly in the context of a debate, [demanding evidence] might seem a reasonable thing to do, the crucial thing about sea lioning is that the person asking (also known as the sea lioner) isn't genuinely interested in the answers to these questions." This leads to "sea lioning" being used as an excuse to refuse to provide evidence, and I daresay this accounts for nearly all - perhaps even all - cases where "sea lioning" has been used as a counter.
-The eight source (Poland) is explicit that sea lioning involves harassment and invasion of privacy: "The remainder of the panels feature the invariably polite sea lion invading every part of the woman's life in an attempt to force her to discuss her dislike of sea lions." This is not mentioned in the Wiki article at all, so I'm adding it. Tsuka (talk) 11:27, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Although the comic does show the sea lion invading every part of the woman's life, that is not part of the definition of sea lioning used by most sources. Most sources consider it to be sea lioning if someone acts that way in one Internet discussion, even though they don't literally show up in person in your bedroom or at your breakfast table. In other words, sealioning and stalking are two different things, both of which the sea lion in the comic does. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:22, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

That's the problem, though: In order for the behaviour to be objectionable, it had to be presented as invading someone's privacy. If the sea lion had merely asked for evidence (and you'll note that in the comment, they never actually answer the sea lion's question), then this is nothing less than reasonable and expected. It only becomes a valid nuisance if a) someone keeps asking the same question even though it has been answered, b) following someone around on different boards asking the same question even if it is irrelevant to the topic at hand, or c) badgering someone who is trying to ignore them. Of these, a) is not sea lioning but simply being a pest (and will earn someone a ban on any moderated forum), but b) and c) certainly qualify - though in the case of c), the "sea lioning" is actually being provoked by the deliberate act of ignoring a person. Remember, the invasion of privacy is in the comic for a reason. If it is not analogous to something the "sea lion" does, then it fails to be a legitimate criticism. Tsuka (talk) 17:42, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Guy Macon and disagree with almost everything said here by Tsuka.

"Uninvited stranger" can absolutely apply in an open environment like Twitter. Socially, posting on twitter is not considered an open call for debate opponents.

But more importantly, while the term originated by analogy to Malki's comic, the comic should not be taken as an authoritative text on the subject. This article is about the phrase as used in general, not about implications of the comic itself.

Sea-lioning is not just about badgering someone, but insisting that they back their conversation up and debate you on an assumption you took as given in your original statement. Maybe that would be acceptable behavior in a courtroom, or a formal Socratic debate, but not in normal human conversation. (Where such conversations will tend to be between people who share most of the same assumptions.) ApLundell (talk) 21:47, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

If "sea lioning" is something quite abstract from the comic itself, then the comic should not be posted as source. And as I pointed out, all of the sources initially referenced in this article had different and differing definitions. The only exceptions were the duplicate source, and the source which did not even mention sea lioning. This marks the word as a neologism, as it has not yet been sufficiently widespread to solidify its definition - but instead the people who use it mold it as they see fit. Which is why people are liable of being accused of sea lioning for simply being polite, or for asking for evidence - even just once.

I do not myself have a twitter account, nor have I ever, so I confess I do not know how "private" that avenue is considered to be. My main experience is from forums, which are open to all members. If you are a member, you are by definition invited. But I cannot see how you can argue that Twitter is by any means private when tweets are public, and it is possible for others to comment. It isn't a private space, online or otherwise. And it isn't used as such, either.

I also don't know what this sentence means: "insisting that they back their conversation up and debate you on an assumption you took as given in your original statement". I'm sorry, but having read that sentence several times I have no idea what it means. Could you rephrase, please?

It is interesting that you bring up the comparison with courts of law. There is no reason why something would be valid there but not elsewhere. In courts of law one barrister gets to speak at a time, with one witness at the time, and the "sea lionesque" questioning in this setting is for the exact same purpose as in internet fora: to keep someone from changing the subject, or otherwise evading criticism to their own arguments. Politicians are being "sea lioned" all the time, but the only reason for this is because politicians are notoriously evasive.

I have never seen an example which could qualify as "sea lioning" in a "normal" conversation where the participants are in accord, because there would be no reason for such behaviour. That said, there is absolutely room for formal Socratic debates in friendly conversation among people who share most of the same assumptions. But the only instances I have seen of people accusing others of "sea lioning" them, have been in debates - between people not of the same mind.Tsuka (talk) 23:12, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Re: "If "sea lioning" is something quite abstract from the comic itself, then the comic should not be posted as source", nonsense. The comic is the origin of the phrase. Would you have us not mention the play or the two movies in our article on gaslighting simply because in most contexts the phrase has nothing to do with murder, jewel theft, or Gas lighting? --Guy Macon (talk) 01:42, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

The comic is not only the origin of the phrase, but is being actively used - in this article and elsewhere - as an example of what sea lioning is. Your reference to gaslighting is a strawman, as it originates from a 114 minute long feature film and as such contains more than just the core themes. The main theme, however, is well reflected in the term "gaslighting". But what you are now saying here, there is nothing from the sea lion comic which is relevant, except the presence of a sea lion? If that is the case, the comic must then have been picked at random.Tsuka (talk) 02:08, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

No one should expect a neologism to have a precise and universal meaning. Indeed, if there were a simple "this is what sea lioning means" definition, this article would not exist per WP:NOTDICTIONARY. Obviously a comic has to convey its message in a simple way and should not be interpreted as a definitive and literal definition of how the term is used. The MacMillan reference is someone's opinion and is not satisfactory as an in-Wikipedia's-voice ruling about the merits of the term. Sea lioning can be seen at many of Wikipedia's discussions; it's just another form of filibustering. Johnuniq (talk) 02:34, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Filibustering is a pretty good description. And you are right about the MacMillan reference merely being someone's opinion and not a satisfactory source, but this is one of the original sources of the article - and the same can be said for all the sources which have provided a definition of the term. And neither these, nor any other source I have come across, have deigned to provide examples. They do tend to claim that it is a frequently used tactic, however. I rather suspect that accusing someone of sea lioning in order to avoid having to back up one's own arguments, is a far more frequent tactic than actual sea lioning. I have seen examples of that, but in my 20+ years of posting on various forums I have never encountered sea lioning - as in, feigned civility in order to discredit someone (not sure how that would even work), repetitious questioning in bad faith to make the debate stagnate. Oh, I have seen persistent demands for evidence - but only in cases where the "target" was equally persistent in refusing to provide any.Tsuka (talk) 03:40, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

"My main experience is from forums, which are open to all members. If you are a member, you are by definition invited."

Sure, to the conversation in progress, but that's not the same, socially, as an open call for debate opponents on anything the poster happens to mention.

For example, if I mention a feminist charity that I think is doing good work, it would not really be socially acceptable for you to reply by starting a debate the merits of feminist philosophy, and then continue, through sheer stubbornness, to repeatedly insist that I should justify the entire concept of feminism.

Of course, I say it's socially unacceptable, but a minority of people disagree, and ... well ... now we have a term for that behavior. ApLundell (talk) 03:13, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Isn't what you describe already covered by "changing the topic" or "derailing", though? "Sea lioning", the way most people seem to use it, has to do with demands for evidence for an actual claim made. Which begs the question, when is or isn't it reasonable to demand evidence?Tsuka (talk) 03:40, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

This is becoming off-topic for an article talk page, however, there are plenty of examples in the archives of the Gamergate controversy discussions. Johnuniq (talk) 04:15, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh right.

Back on topic, good job removing a redundant source, but I don't think it's a problem that the definitions in the remaining sources don't exactly match.

And even if it was a problem, what would we do about it? ApLundell (talk) 08:14, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Added section on suggested way to deal with this specific type of trolling

Dr Claire Hardaker, a senior lecturer in linguistics at Lancaster University, who has researched trolls and the content changes are based on the article excerpt below:

• Sea lioning is the process of killing with dogged kindness and manufactured ignorance by asking questions, then turning on the victim in an instant. “In this, the perpetrator endlessly nitpicks and relentlessly pursues the topic, but oh so very politely and, when the target finally gets annoyed and retaliates, the sea lion takes on the wronged victim of abuse role,” says Hardaker.

• The solution is a simple one: just don’t engage with the troll in the first place. However, this can be difficult to do – a suspected sea lion may in fact just be a genuinely curious individual looking to learn more. So rather than ignoring them outright or devoting precious time to discussing the individual merits and drawbacks of a point with them, courteously directing them to a third-party resource – a couple of links to news stories about the matter at hand – can help nullify their attempts to derail your day. [1]

Please feel free to update my changes, thanks everyone - 24.16.106.217 (talk) 21:21, 19 August 2018 (UTC)